Soft Images from my 20D?

[triangle]

I just purchased my 20D last week and have not been pleased with my photos. I shoot mainly sports/action and was told the 20D would better serve my needs(Instead of purchasing a new lens for my DRebel). I made the purchase and have used it a couple of times for baseball pictures. I am using my Tamron 75-300mm lens and I shot in sports mode in these photos. My histogram looked good, the lens was locking in in the AI Servo and I thought all was well. But when I downloaded the images to my computer and expanded them to full view, they were very soft. Is it my lens, or me? I will post the images below with the shot info. Please give me some advice, I was expecting a big difference from my camera upgrade. :(

#1

http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/400x600-5310011.jpg

Full Image Here (http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/5310011.JPG)

Shooting Mode
Sports
Photo Effect Mode
Off
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/500
Av( Aperture Value )
5.6
Metering Mode
Evaluative
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
400
Lens
70.0 - 300.0 mm
Focal Length
300.0 mm
Image Size
2336x3504
Image Quality
Fine
Flash
Off
White Balance
Auto
AF Mode
AI Servo AF
Parameters
Tone Curve Standard
Sharpness level 0
Color tone Normal
Noise reduction
Off


--------------------------------------------------------

#2

http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/400x600-5310030.jpg

Full Image Here (http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/5310030.JPG)

Shooting Mode
Sports
Photo Effect Mode
Off
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/800
Av( Aperture Value )
5.6
Metering Mode
Evaluative
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
400
Lens
70.0 - 300.0 mm
Focal Length
300.0 mm
Image Size
2336x3504
Image Quality
Fine
Flash
Off
White Balance
Auto
AF Mode
AI Servo AF
Parameters
Tone Curve Standard
Sharpness level 0
Color tone Normal
Noise reduction
Off

[tim]

There are three main things that could be wrong here:
- The camera (not so likely).
- The lens (more likely).
- The operator.

You can eliminate #1 and #2 by doing this focus test (http://www.canon-dslr.com/Canon_Jan05/Canon_SLR_Focus_Test.htm). If that comes back ok, then it's most likely the operator. Sports photography's hard, and i've never tried it, but i'd recommend looking into CF4-1 there's a big thread on it around here somewhere, search should find it. It could be this one (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=51909).

[Marvinspu36]

I looked at your image in EOS Viewer. Your focus point was on the solid black shirt. This is most likely the source of the focus problem. The autofocus system needs contrast to focus. It is best to focus on the border between a dark and light object. A good place to focus would probably be on the line that is formed by the chest and the t-shirt collar.


Hope this helps

[triangle]

I looked at your image in EOS Viewer. Your focus point was on the solid black shirt. This is most likely the source of the focus problem. The autofocus system needs contrast to focus. It is best to focus on the border between a dark and light object. A good place to focus would probably be on the line that is formed by the chest and the t-shirt collar.


Hope this helps

That is correct in the first image, but the second one is focused on his arm. Which when pulled up close, does not appear to be in focus either. I took some a few days before using AV mode and had the same results, I am going to post a few of those as well.

[Dante King]

most likley that tamron lens is the prob. Try a higher F number to get more DOF. The sweet spot for that lens is more around f8 (total guess). As well that lens is going to be soft at 300mm.

[tim]

Without doing a focus test, like the one I recommended above, all this is pure guesswork. Increasing the DOF is a workaround to finding the true problem - it would disguise the focus problem if there is one, or mask that it's operator error.

[triangle]

Here are shots from 2 days before. I shot in AV mode and was not pleased with the results, that is why I tried just the sports mode in the above pictures.


http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/400x600-1199.jpg

And here it is Cropped

http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/400x600-1199-cropped.jpg


Full Image Here (http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/IMG_1199.JPG)

Shooting Mode
Aperture-Priority AE
Tv( Shutter Speed )
1/500
Av( Aperture Value )
5.6
Metering Mode
Evaluative Metering
Exposure Compensation
0
ISO Speed
100
Lens
70.0 - 300.0 mm
Focal Length
248.0 mm
Image Size
2336x3504
Image Quality
Fine
Flash
Off
White Balance Mode
Auto
AF Mode
AI Servo AF
Parameters Settings
Contrast Standard
Sharpness Standard
Color saturation Standard
Color tone 0
Color Space
sRGB
Noise Reduction
Off

[triangle]

Without doing a focus test, like the one I recommended above, all this is pure guesswork. Increasing the DOF is a workaround to finding the true problem - it would disguise the focus problem if there is one, or mask that it's operator error.


I will preform the tests that you mentioned tomorrow.

[Chazs]

I see possibly four things...
1) there's a lot of chromatic aberration causing the edges of objects to blur
2) there's a lot of lens (300mm) wide open (or close too it). Wide open for that lens will be soft.
3) at 300 (aka, 480mm) may be quite a bit for 1/500 shutterspeed. A little camera motionmay be present.
4) On the first photo, the ground about 2 to 3 feet in front of the player seems to be more in focus. Focu test.

Take a few shots at about 200mm at 1/750 and f/8. Increase the ISO if need be, and see if there is any improvement. (Also, shoot raw and adjust for the C/A iwhen converting from raw.)

[Marvinspu36]

That is correct in the first image, but the second one is focused on his arm. Which when pulled up close, does not appear to be in focus either. I took some a few days before using AV mode and had the same results, I am going to post a few of those as well.

Skin, in general, also does not provide enough contrast for good focus.

You can easily test to see if the focus problem is due to choosing a portion of the subject without enough contrast:

Try some shots focusing on the skin or solid colored portion of the subject, as you did on the shots you posted. Then also try focusing on the subject where there is a boundry of light and dark, like the border between the skin and collarr, or between two different contrasty colors. Make sure the spot you pick is also fairly bright. Avoid picking areas in shadows. The Canon 20D does not focus well on solid colors, like the shirt or skin, because it needs the contrast to autofocus. Most of my out of focus shots are due to not focusing on a portion of the subject that is optimal for the autofocus sensors.

This may not be the problem, or only problem, with your shots, but it is easy enough to test this.

It takes practice to get good in-focus shots, so take lots of shots. When you get some that are in-focus, look at them in the EOS Viewer utility. Turn on the focus point display and see how the good shots differ from the out of focus ones.

[badrotation]

try using some unsharp mask on it as well.

There are also sharpness settings in the parameters...


Focus on an area with high contrast, and shoot with a smaller arperture. I dont know about your lens, but with the kit lens, I tend to get the sharpest photos at about f/16.

when you are close to wide open like you were in that shot with the info, the images will tend to be softer.

Also, camera shake at that length, with 1/500 sec. can be a problem. When I am shooting at those lengths, I like to shoot at 1/800th or higher if I am hand holding the camera.


This picture was taken with my 20D and the cheapy 18-55mm kit lens the other day..

http://img239.echo.cx/img239/838/img5153sharpsmall5kp.jpg

[pcasciola]

Are these about the same results you were getting with the rebel?

That lens will definitely be somewhat soft wide open, especially at the max of the zoom range, but stopped down a little and maybe around 200mm you should get some decent quality out of it. You had plenty of shutter speed, so I would just stop it down to f/8, and bump your ISO up until you get around 1/500.

Also, AI Servo takes some practice. I would try some without it until you figure out what settings works best for that camera/lens combo.

[Bob_A]

For the second set of pictures the baseball glove is really sharp, yet the area around the focus point isn't. I'd also suspect that there may be a tiny bit of motion blur, even though you shot at 1/500s (unless he posed for you).

If the focus test shows no problem, try increasing your ISO to 200 or more so that you can shoot at both a higher shutterspeed and smaller aperature.

Also, did you have a filter on the lens? I read one article where cheap UV filters can cause problems with focusing when tested on a 20D ... so if you use any kind of filter try the focus test with it on and off.

Bob

[canon2od]

Hey Bad, I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but what are the other settings you used for the great picture!!!

[badrotation]

Hey Bad, I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but what are the other settings you used for the great picture!!!

It was taken with the following settings:

ISO 400
f/22
20 second exposure
Focal length: 18mm
taken in Tv mode

[griff2]

Looking at the picture of the boy with the orange shirt, I'd say the image is slightly out of focus, although there's certainly a fair degree of lens softness as well. The effective focal length of the lens at 248mm is ~397mm so the 1/500 shutter speed used should be ok, and I can't see any signs of motion blur.

If you were about 7 metres from the subject (~21 feet) then your depth of field at f/5.6 will be ~6.3 cm or ~2.5 inches. At f/11 your depth of field would be approximately double. I'd try stopping down, to f/11, upping the ISO to compensate. Try choosing something contrasty to focus on, and instead of focusing and re-composing, try using different focus points which allow for the best composition.

[cmM]

First thing that pops into my head would be the lens. motion blur is not likely, since you were shooting at 1/800.
Do that focus test, and take some test shots at different apertures and focal length as well just to see how the sharpness varies.

[I Simonius]

I just purchased my 20D last week and have not been pleased with my photos. snip>

I suggest shooting RAW+ shooting a STATIC subject with the same lens at different apertures, on a tripod. Take them into your comp and sharpen once. Have a look.

That way you can eliminate quite a few variables and know for sure if it's you or the lens.

You are shooting at 300mm on a 1.6 sensor which = a 480 lens (call it 500mmfor arguements sake. SO you need to shoot a STATIC subject @ 500th sec and moving at twice to three times that to get a sharp pic

My money says your problem is camera shake
;)

[OviV]

None of the advantages that the 20D possesses over the DRebel will make these pictures better. If you were getting better results with the DRebel using the same lens and settings I would say to have the camera checked. If, however, your results were similar, I would suggest that your lens and shutter speeds are the culprit.

[Phil V]

As others have said, there's definitely a focus issue here, in all the pic's you can find something sharper than the face. You'll have to get used to the fact that if you want the face in focus - you have to focus on it.

I'm not saying this is easy, but it's the only way you're going to improve these pictures, no amount of L lens or new camera is gonna make up for poor technique. This is obviously not the sharpest lens in the world but better technique will get you better pic's.

You can mask the slight lack of DoF and sloppy focus with a smaller aperture, as others have suggested F8- 11 will also be nearer the lenses optimum aperture. Also remember how the camera finds something to focus on and the fact that the focus points are bigger and a cross shape (not exactly the rectangles you see in the viewfinder).

BTW The timing and composition are good, so a little more effort and you'll get some great photo's.

[triangle]

Thank you for the input from each of you. I have a friend that has the 75-300mm Canon lens, and was able to use it the other night. I basically was getting the same results, soft images. I tried many of your suggestions and still was not getting the sharp results that I am after. Therefore I borrowed another friends 75-200L and used it last night. All I can say is WOW, I have L fever like crazy. I am posting a few of the pics below.

P.S. - Bad, that is an awesome fireworks shot.

http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/runner.jpg

http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/pitcher.jpg

[triangle]

Are these about the same results you were getting with the rebel?

That lens will definitely be somewhat soft wide open, especially at the max of the zoom range, but stopped down a little and maybe around 200mm you should get some decent quality out of it. You had plenty of shutter speed, so I would just stop it down to f/8, and bump your ISO up until you get around 1/500.

Also, AI Servo takes some practice. I would try some without it until you figure out what settings works best for that camera/lens combo.


Phillip, basically it is the same results that I was getting with the DRebel. However I do not regret purchasing the 20D, it is fast. I am very impressed with this camera, I can't believe the difference between my DRebel and it. I was able to shoot last nights game at 1600 ISO and get brighter pictures than the field actually was. One of the dad's on the other team has the DRebel and we talk often. Once it started getting dark, he put up his camera. He came over and asked how I liked the way the pics were coming out with that lens and he couldn't believe the brightness of them. I have to get some L glass to go with this camera, it opens a whole new world.

[OviV]

Those are way better. Good glass makes a big difference.

Ovi

[Nessus]

One thing that I do not think has been raised is that the first set of pictures has the sharpness off, and the DRebel (I believe) has the sharpness always on (as it is more of a consumer camera). That does not denigrate the amazing difference between the 70-200L and the Tamron, but maybe the full time sharpness of the DRebel made the Tamron seem just a bit more in focus. You might try activating the sharpness on the 20D to see if the images are a little more like those of the DRebel.

Adam

[Andy_T]

Better would be to sharpen the images in PS ... gives you more control over the process, with the same final result.

Best regards,
Andy

[Hellashot]

[QUOTE=triangle]Here are shots from 2 days before. I shot in AV mode and was not pleased with the results, that is why I tried just the sports mode in the above pictures.


http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/400x600-1199.jpg

And here it is Cropped

http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/400x600-1199-cropped.jpg


Full Image Here (http://www.trianglephotography.com/gallery/IMG_1199.JPG)

QUOTE]

On this image, the focus point seems to be on the name on the chest of the jersy - that looks nice and sharp.