Dealing with a client canceling a shoot

[Alfresco]

I am not a wedding photographer but I have shot a few for people I know. At one wedding in July I was asked by a guest to shoot her wedding this Jan.

I had been in email contact with the couple and they had told me that I had the job.

Recently though, they had started asking for me to shoot outside of the agreed time-frame. I told them that I would do this at no extra cost if they covered my accomodation the day before (so I could start early) and the night of the wedding so that I could shoot right through the evening dance party) This was a massive free bonus that I was offering especially as their budget was only £500. I was basically shooting all day from morning to night. 2 5D's and a selection of L lenses, plus bringing portable studio lights. They then asked for me if I could bring them a selection of polaroid cameras for their guests to use at no extra cost. They said can I "throw it in" as they were covering my accomodation. What I explained then was that they are covering my accomodation so that they get free shooting before and after the main event, and that I could not offer anything for else for free.

I then received an email telling me that they had decided to source a local photographer.

I believe that I am due a cancellation fee.

I had no formal contract. What I do have though is conformation emails telling me, "I have the job"

Can anyone please advise on how I should handle this? I have not replied as yet.

Thanks!

[Dennis_Hammer]

No formal contract, no deposit. I don't think you ever had the job if the negotiations were still on going. Thats what a contract does in everyone's eyes, it says you have the job. First rule of a contract is there has to be a meeting of the minds. If your still working out the details then there is no meeting. I think you have to chalk this up to a lesson and next time get a non-refundable deposit and a signed contract.

[canonnoob]

No formal contract, no deposit. I don't think you ever had the job if the negotiations were still on going. Thats what a contract does in everyone's eyes, it says you have the job. First rule of a contract is there has to be a meeting of the minds. If your still working out the details then there is no meeting. I think you have to chalk this up to a lesson and next time get a non-refundable deposit and a signed contract.

exactly, op you never had the job... no deposit nothing... sadly that is how it goes.. I always get a deposit before giving my day away

[Undispu7ed]

What those 2 said ^

[AlexMoPhotography]

Co-signed. I had e-mailed back and forth for a week with a bride and she looked very interested. But when I got another request for a wedding the same day, I made the stupid mistake of asking her to wait 3 days and see if my first client would respond.

In the end? The first client stopped responding, and by the time I got back to the second client, they told me they hired someone else.

Moral of the story? No deposit, no date.

It doesn't matter who approached first or who said what, cause talk is cheap. Money talks, and contracts are the law. Hope this is good advice for you.

[OdiN1701]

You had no contract, therefore you are due nothing.

Live and learn. I bet next time you will have a contract.

[k7beb]

Obvious response: consult a local lawyer (which will probably cost more than you're likely to recover). Free legal advice is worth what you pay for it.

Here's my non-legal advice: Document the cost of any actual expenses you've incurred on their behalf, and send them an invoice with a cover letter explaining that you had acted in good faith based on their confirmation that you had this job and requesting reimbursement.

Unless you have a documented agreement that specifies a cancellation fee, that's all you'd be likely to get anyway.

[Karl Johnston]

You don't need a lawyer for something like this; no contract, no job..no signature no contract
Client referral is everything..everrrrything. Cancellation fee would be okay if you had a real contract, a real set of terms, a real booked date, a real client ..you don't have any of those; if you ask for a fee for corresponding with you then that's going to raise their eyebrows. I'd say to hell with it, swallow my pride, bite the bullet and make sure I did the footwork properly for the next client.

There's no "dealing with the client" because there wasn't any to begin with.

[RDKirk]

You don't need a lawyer for something like this; no contract, no job..no signature no contract
Client referral is everything..everrrrything. Cancellation fee would be okay if you had a real contract, a real set of terms, a real booked date, a real client ..you don't have any of those; if you ask for a fee for corresponding with you then that's going to raise their eyebrows. I'd say to hell with it, swallow my pride, bite the bullet and make sure I did the footwork properly for the next client.

There's no "dealing with the client" because there wasn't any to begin with.

Heck, not even lawyers charge a fee for an initial consultation.

[RDKirk]

I believe that I am due a cancellation fee.

I had no formal contract. What I do have though is conformation emails telling me, "I have the job"


A cancellation fee is what you get to keep when the contract is cancelled by the client.

So, yes, you get to keep the cancellation fee that you collected when you signed the contract.

[kja]

This is not a cancellation really. You never had the job. You don't have a job for real until you have the contract and your retainer in your hot little hand.

Chalk it up to lesson learned.

[mcluckie]

I believe that I am due a cancellation fee.


Yeah, you never really had the job. Just talked about it. They obviously didn't like your adjustments to their proposed changes of the original job scope.

[sapearl]

Like Kristin said..... ditto, ditto.... wise lady ;).

I can't tell you how many phone calls and emails I've had like that over the years. Sorry to hear about your bad luck in a sense, but there was never any deal. And for what she would have paid, and what she wanted in return... which was becoming more, and more and more.... she really did you a favor. You would have been working for minimum wage and busting your hump in the process.

You are entitled to nothing here, but consider it a valuable lesson. And don't bother any lawyers. They'll tell you the same, but unlike your friends on POTN, THEY will send you a bill.

This is not a cancellation really. You never had the job. You don't have a job for real until you have the contract and your retainer in your hot little hand.

Chalk it up to lesson learned.

[Karl Johnston]

Heck, not even lawyers charge a fee for an initial consultation.
Indeed, that's all this is..inquiry.

I'll prt screen you my e-mail inbox of all the no-show inquiries I get..I've learned to pursue them now :D before I just left them alone and wouldn't hear a word back.

Or send out an ad...like this one to 4 potential portraits:

http://www.synergystudiosphotography.com/blog/2009/10/12/free-portraits-weddings.html

Rather than burn a bridge with a no-show client..turn it into a positive.

Sure as hell don't take legal action (that's the last option, always, and only in legitimate cases) or demand your dues.

Say cheers, no problem, hope they can do business with you for something else another time..keep e-mail on file and come 3 months try asking them if they'd be interested in this new deal you're doing. Interest is re-sparked and maybe they go to you, maybe they show a friend it and they go to you..but you keep in touch.

Response comes back 100% here.

[Billo78]

Sounds like you dodged a bullet, if they're pushing their luck at this stage (that whole "throw in the polaroids" is ridiculous) you know they're going to be gunning for extras the whole way down. I recently had a client who asked me to provide "a more reasonable quote" on his album after we had:

a) initially signed a contract which clearly stated album costs and additional pages costs
b) taken amazing photos that him and his wife were thrilled to bits with
c) spent 4 hours going through the album design with the couple and agreeing on something they were super happy with
d) discussed the additional costs during the album design meeeting and no objections were riased.

Because we had a contract signed and agreed by both parties it was easy to bounce back and politly say "no, this has been the agreed price all along, there is no question in quality of, you owe us the full amount", they paid it without further issue.

Basically certain people will always take a chance, try to save some cash and see how far they can push their luck. You were providing them a very affordable service and they still wanted more, those are not the clients you want, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

[RDKirk]

Basically certain people will always take a chance, try to save some cash and see how far they can push their luck. You were providing them a very affordable service and they still wanted more, those are not the clients you want, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Yes, this is a good point. I'd agree that a bullet whistled by your ear.

[sapearl]

Yup.... better to dodge than to see if the Kevlar really works.:rolleyes:

Yes, this is a good point. I'd agree that a bullet whistled by your ear.

[1downfall]

Indeed, that's all this is..inquiry.

I'll prt screen you my e-mail inbox of all the no-show inquiries I get..I've learned to pursue them now :D before I just left them alone and wouldn't hear a word back.

Or send out an ad...like this one to 4 potential portraits:

http://www.synergystudiosphotography.com/blog/2009/10/12/free-portraits-weddings.html

Rather than burn a bridge with a no-show client..turn it into a positive.

Sure as hell don't take legal action (that's the last option, always, and only in legitimate cases) or demand your dues.

Say cheers, no problem, hope they can do business with you for something else another time..keep e-mail on file and come 3 months try asking them if they'd be interested in this new deal you're doing. Interest is re-sparked and maybe they go to you, maybe they show a friend it and they go to you..but you keep in touch.

Response comes back 100% here.
I like this approach.....keep a good head and turn it positive!

[poloman]

I ask for a non-refundable deposit for weddings at the time they are ordered.
I would suggest you be very cheerful and polite. Just a no problem sort of attitude. As the others have said, you did not yet have the job. If they come back to you (and they might) make sure you politely ask for a non-refundable deposit and a signed contract. Be sure you outline the exact services to be done, in the contract. You will also include a clause stating that any additional services be agreed to by both you and them and cost will be negotiated. Keep a pleasant, professional attitude in all your dealings with them and with any prospective client.
You aren't missing much with them anyway. Weddings are hard work and they were walking you down the plank to slavery. That is why I say they may be back. They may need to recreate the wedding in the future as anyone who agrees to their demands may or may not have the skills needed.

[P51Mstg]

The first couple of posts were right on the money..... No contract, no damages.

BUT in this particular case, to get something. TRY this one. Send them a BILL. Not ask for "reimbursement", but bill them for a cancellation fee and see if they pay it. Let THEM PROVE there wasn't a contract.

Mark H
PS: I was a lawyer and in the past have advised people to try this and it works more often than it doesn't

[Zansho]

Mark, there's also ethics in business involved in this sort of thing. To do what you suggested, is essentially poor business practice, imo.

Charging someone for work you've never done, when there is no contract in place, and all the proof there is simply a few emails and a couple of phone convos?

The OP would do well to consider his reputation and his personal ethics before following your advice. I wouldn't want a reputation of a photographer who sends a phantom bill off to a prospective client just because they didn't sign with me.

[cdifoto]

Obvious response: consult a local lawyer (which will probably cost more than you're likely to recover). Free legal advice is worth what you pay for it.

Here's my non-legal advice: Document the cost of any actual expenses you've incurred on their behalf, and send them an invoice with a cover letter explaining that you had acted in good faith based on their confirmation that you had this job and requesting reimbursement.

Unless you have a documented agreement that specifies a cancellation fee, that's all you'd be likely to get anyway.
Yeah I'd love to send a bill to every non-client who sets up a meeting with me and wastes my time, gas, and coffee fund but doesn't book. But, unfortunately, that's not how it works. These are the costs of doing business and they must be written off as such. Be thankful when they keep it to email and don't make you prepare a schpiel and trek through a blizzard to the nearest coffee shop.

Sears doesn't go around charging everyone who calls up and asks for their package specials and says "I'll be over later today."

[P51Mstg]

I disagree......

There is a contract, and it was made when the bride said...... "I want you to shoot our wedding"

It may not be as good as a 12 page typewritten document as far as holding up in court, but it is still a contract none the less.

The "meeting of the minds" occurred when the bride said shoot my wedding on June 12th and the Photog said "I'll be there"...... Consideration is implied in that the photog didn't say he'd do it for free and we are not here to argue the cost of the wedding shoot.

It got screwed up when the bride said..... OH YEAH AND BY THE WAY SINCE ITS MY DAY, I WANT ALL THIS OTHER STUFF TOO......... For all you know she asked for that because she found someone on CRAIGSLIST who said they'd do it for $100..... And SHE wanted to break the deal

If the bride wanted more information, she should have said..... WELL LETS SIT DOWN AND TALK ABOUT IT, SEND ME A PROPOSAL........ To me, the legnth of time spent in discussion, seems to imply that SHE believed that the PHOTOG was going to shoot it and she wanted to work out the fine details.

There is NOTHING unethical about this at all...... You will find in the real world that people don't really RESPECT contracts.......

Mark H

[cdifoto]

People may not respect contracts but they do respect their checkbook.

[RDKirk]

The OP would do well to consider his reputation and his personal ethics before following your advice. I wouldn't want a reputation of a photographer who sends a phantom bill off to a prospective client just because they didn't sign with me.

Yes. Many, if not most, of us who have been in the personal commission photography (wedding and/or portraiture business) for a while are getting a hefty portion of our new business by word of mouth.

But bad word of mouth travels faster and farther than good word of mouth.

[poloman]

Right or wrong... irritating a bride is a very bad plan. If the OP had done the non-refundable deposit thing, this never would have happened. Now, be cool, hope she comes back and be ready to charge her fairly.

[SMP_Homer]

no contract
no deposit

you had nothing...
as much as anyone says they want you to shoot their event, all they have is an understanding that they want you there, that you want to be there, but no guarantees from either sides were made to actually make sure it was all to happen

[Dennis_Hammer]

If she is still negotiating there is no contract no matter what she said about "wanting" him to do it. If I walk into a car dealership and say to a salesman "I want that Corvette" that is not a deal. the deal/contract comes only after we both agree on the exchange (me money - him car) (bride money, him photographic products) its called a meeting of the minds. If the photographer thinks he has the job and she thinks he doesn't yet, guess what he doesn't. When she sign a piece of paper then she thinks he has the job. Personally until their deposit check clears I don't think I have the job even with a contract. Which is why I get half upfront and they get back a portion of the money if cancelled if I rebook the date minus the non-refundable portion of their deposit. I collect $1500 up front and the last $1500 sixty days before the night of the rehearsal. If the event is cancelled more than thirty days out. Less than thirty no refund, by the way I have only had to do this once and ended up giving the poor girl half back.

[Mark1]

. If I walk into a car dealership and say to a salesman "I want that Corvette" that is not a deal.

Agree, even if the response form the salesman is " Then sir, you shal have one!" You want one. He wants to sell you one, but no contract has been made yet.