Question regarding hockey photography.

[aepoc]

I'm the team photographer for the new Madison Ice Muskies Professional hockey team (AAHL). www.icemuskies.com (http://www.icemuskies.com/)

The owner and GM asked me to shoot for their hockey team this year (inaugural season). I asked about compensation and of course the reply was that I can have whatever I like in tickets and merchandise. I agreed to do shoot for them (retaining all copyrights, of course) for their form of 'compensation' because I also want another season of experience shooting hockey under my belt, and because I like being part of this side of a hockey team.

What I'm wondering is this: At the end of the season, I would like to figure out what I am able to charge for NEXT season. Would I do some sort of altered "work for hire" (where both myself and the organization can use the photos as we wish), should I keep track what each image is used for and charge based on the industry standard (FotoQuote ), or something different entirely?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. As it stands right now, I am keeping track of the images that they're using and how they're being used.

Thanks all.

- jason

[aepoc]

Some samples:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2549/4045042866_d30744dd48_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2437/4048863644_627ed2ecca_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2469/4030027257_8884a99519_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3383/3251612023_266688bae3_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3265/3096890724_264312d0dc_b.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1065/3165154914_48bdb6a332_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3204/3096880730_6f22b88fdd_b.jpg

[gromeo]

I was asked by the GM to be the team photog for a new winter baseball league starting next month here in Central FL, so I had my meeting with them, and we discussed usage, well it was for standard media guides and advertising etc. They wanted every home game covered which amounts to 29 games not counting playoffs and there are times when they play 4 games in a row. When the subject of compensation came up the GM looked at me and said there was no money in the budget for photos. I then asked about photo sales, that was okay, but wanted 50%, WTF no compensation and they 50% no way. So I declined the offer.
From past experience if a league/team is not willing to pay for work now they will come back the following year with the same offer. In there minds if they can get pics for free or trade why should they pay for it. My 2 cents

[VinnyC01]

Don't the league rules govern this? Also, you should be the guy who shoots all their shots in their program. If so, they sell the year books/programs, should you be entitled to compensation from that? (just to start opening a can of worms)

if a league/team is not willing to pay for work now they will come back the following year with the same offer. In there minds if they can get pics for free or trade why should they pay for it. My 2 cents

100% agreed - whole heartily.

NOW:

playing devil's advocate here: let's say you want to add to your resume that you are the team photographer for this team. You are locking up that job for the year, in hopes to generate more business at that (cooperate sports) level. You can also contact a company such as South Creek, which will help market your work to magazines and newspapers.

[aepoc]

gromeo - you're more than likely correct in that they will probably come back with the same 'offer' for next year. I'm currently wearing myself out as it is now shooting for them, and we're only a handful of games into the season. I haven't yet asked them about selling my photos AT games, but I don't think I'm going to be okay with giving them any % of my sales because they're not paying me to take the photos in the first place. So in essence, they'd be making money off MY generosity. You stated that you declined the offer because of this, and while I'm already shooting for them, it will not be okay with me to give them any % of sales I make.

I guess this entire thing is just sticky and tricky. I can definitely see them using someone else if I decide I need to be fairly compensated next season.

Thanks for the input guys.


- j

[VinnyC01]

I also think they should supply you with strobes

[Brandon Anderson Photos]

the same thing is happening to me this season, I am shooting for our local team with no pay although i get to keep my copyright and 100% of what I sell. The way i seen it for me was im already at the games (prior season ticket holder) with my camera so why not do it? Now i get into all the games for free and just suply them with some shots for the web site it seems fair to me also if i wasnt going to do it someone else would be and I know for a fact that my x gf's new boyfriend wanted this job for years and me doing it is kind of a FU to him LOL

[DHMN]

You probably already know the NCAA rules regarding photos since you've shot the Badger women... I can't decide if I like the selective focus on the Meghan Duggan shot or not... As someone who watches the WCHA (men and women) I know she's fore-checking Daggit (a St. Cloud freshman last year) so it might work a little. Shooting the Minnesota-Duluth women as a "freelance" photographer (they have a University hired photographer who's too busy to shoot a many games) I can't sell anything but it does create a lot of website traffic, and they've used a bunch of my shots already which is a huge plus.. and it can create an "in" to shoot their other sports as well but that's getting off topic.

I looked at Madison's website and hate to tell you, but you probably won't make much money working for them... on their employment page they are looking for college interns to handle the photography job, so you may be just a temporary fix for them. Being a small "pro" league this is pretty standard as far as the way they do business to save on their bottom line. Your photos are good though so get what you can while you're there and who knows, maybe they'll really like it and change their mind.. but (see below:)

It basically says The Photography internship position will capture the moment at all Ice Muskies home games and other team functions. Some of the duties will include organizing photos for the website, player and staff headshots, action shots, photos for marketing, programs, promotional items such as posters, and finding that wacky fan of the game. The Ice Muskies will have full use of any photos, but the intern will retain the rights to his or her photographs. For more information about internships with the Madison Ice Muskies, please contact us

[aepoc]

Thanks for all the replies guys. DHMN, glad you like the photos. I read the intern thing on the Muskies' website, and that's actually what prompted this entire thing. *shrug* I guess we'll see. I'll upload some more samples of my work tomorrow... from the Muskies' first three home games.

[aepoc]

A few more:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3523/4057672668_c463485c45_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2741/4024251308_cea7249f9a_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/3096041007_8277dc962e_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3256/3165159274_024fc3ba5f_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3431/3349687939_ec6d0f0fa1_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3497/3253888055_fc64f2216b_b.jpg

[DHMN]

Are you doing any Badger women's hockey this year? Without Mark Johnson and some of their former superstars they aren't having a super start that they usually do.

[aepoc]

Yeah I'm doing some Badger hockey this year as well. A lot of the times that they play are when the Ice Muskies play as well, and I'm needed moreso at the Muskies games. I agree that it's rough on the team not having Johnson coaching... but we're minus a few players too. Duggan would be a hell of an asset to have out there, but she's off being an Olympian. :)

[DHMN]

The Badgers stepped up and took 2 games from the Gophers...just like 7 players short on UMD's team....but somehow they knocked off the #1 ranked Mercyhurst on Saturday afternoon. The UMD/Wisconsin rivalry is the biggest one we have, and bigger than with Minnesota.

Are the Ice Muskies playing in that "other" arena that the Badger women end up in during your state wrestling tournament?

[aepoc]

The Badgers stepped up and took 2 games from the Gophers...just like 7 players short on UMD's team....but somehow they knocked off the #1 ranked Mercyhurst on Saturday afternoon. The UMD/Wisconsin rivalry is the biggest one we have, and bigger than with Minnesota.

Are the Ice Muskies playing in that "other" arena that the Badger women end up in during your state wrestling tournament?

I believe you mean Eagle's Nest, in Verona, WI. No, they play at a different local rink, but a lot like Eagle's Nest. They play at Hartmeyer, on the East Side of Madison. They're doing pretty well for attendance I think so far. Some very, very exciting games at home. One they lost 8-7in a shootout (home opener), the next night they routed the same team 6-0... and two days later they won 6-5 in overtime.

[DHMN]

Yep.. Eagle's Nest.. I haven't gotten to Madison and forgot what it was called...the pictures that weren't taken in Kohl's made me think it was the same arena..

[aepoc]

The second to last image in this thread (Anne Dronen, number 6), was taken at Eagle's Nest. The ones of the Muskies were at Hartmeyer.