PW Mini Flex or RP PX

[jetlinking]

I've read though many threads about both but can't decided which one to get, so I need you guys to push me over the edge either way.

For you PW Mini Flex guys
1. Do you have to reset your Mini and Flex units all the time? Thought I read on here that someone said something about it, maybe when it does a auto-shutdown? If so, this doesn't sound fun.

2. If you just have the mini on the hot shoe triggering a flex with a 580EXII on it, how do you control the the options on the 580? Like you would if you had a 580 mastering a 430 as a slave? My concern is manually changing the options on the back of a 580 with the sock. I realize if I had a 580 on the camera and a 430 as a slave, the 430 will change with what ever mode the i choose, either manual or ETTL. But, what if there is just the mini on the hotshoe?

3. Are you having good results with the sock?

For you RP PX guys
1. What do you not like about your setup?

Thanks
Jet

[drPheta]

I've used both.

RadioPopper:
They work as advertised, but the mounting is still it's short coming. That bracket they sell is nice, but my backpack as enough stuff in there, already.

PW Flex and Mini TTL:
1. I don't recall needing to reset things much. If I do, it's when autosleep is active (still on older firmware, need to update). All that's needed to be done is recalibrate them.

2. I change the flash exposure compensation via the camera controls. I've shot with
a. Mini on camera, 580EX II on Flex
b. Mini + ST-E2 on camera, 580EX II on flex and 430EX II on flex
c. Mini + 580EX II on camera, 430EX II on flex.

All circumstances I change via in camera flash options (leave my flashes alone), or via the ST-E2 (when being used). Leave all flashes as master and the PWs will take care of the slave signals and such.

What do I like about my setup I have now?
The mounting, streamlined design, and exposure reliability.

What setup do I have now?
PocketWizard Flex/Mini. I liked how the RPs worked, but the mounting is such a big deal to me. Velcro??? I dealt with it cause it was the only option then. I expected the brackets to be sleek and compact. Well, there's just no way given how the RPs NEED to work. So, I sent them back (before the bracket was even offered), and I don't regret it just yet. The PocketWizards have worked for me, and I don't need to shoot 200+ feet away, yet.

As far as the AC5 is concerned, I'm still waiting to get them to try. But my 580EX II works within 20-30 feet of me w/o it. So, I can only expect great things to come when I do get the AC5.

PS... everyone moans and groans about the Flex needing a sock to make things work. Well, the AC5 is much more compact and packable then the stinking RP mounting bracket. Poo Poo that, people.

Lastly, the PWs are slightly cheaper... consider the cost of the brackets, and the cost difference just got even greater.

[mattograph]

I love the radiopoppers. I have 4, and they work like a charm. The new brackets make a big difference -- I was always losing the little cold shoes anyway.

[viet]

Had radiopoppers, sold them and bought the new PWs to work with my existing Plus IIs.

Haven't had to reset, upgraded with new firmware, don't even have to use socks on the 580ex, don't know about 580exII. One big advantage over the radiopoppers is the ability to use just one flash for off camera. You don't need a flash to act as master if you only want to do one flash off camera. With the new firmware, and their utility, now all I do is stick it on and start shooting, no more messing with tape, wires, or brackets.

Also the new beta firmware from PW is supposed to help make bouncing your flash more effective. Haven't tried that, but sounds interesting. Here's the article from Rob Galbraith: http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-10044-10314

[wellyman]

Subscribing....

I too am wanting to get one of these two systems, for the capability of adjusting the power of remote speedlites from the camera, although I don't quite understand how this is done. Distance is very important to me. I'm a little upset to learn that the RP requires a master (580) on the camera hotshoe to operate. This for me is a (potential) waste of an expensive flash as I don't really want a lightsource coming from the camera.

But, I'm scared of the PW's distance issue. I actually bought a Skyport Universal kit but I think I'm going to return it because going back and forth from camera to flashes to adjust power is going to kill me.

Why can't anything be easy?

[drPheta]

Without the AC5, the PW is pretty close range only for any flash that's not a 430EX II. If you're using a 430EX II, you don't have to worry about limited range at all. The AC5 shows some promising results...
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKd2vLuVfms

For the RP, you can use an ST-E2 and not waste a flash by requiring it on camera.

Either of the systems will work as needed. It's really just a matter of cost and personal preference at this point, IMO.

[wellyman]

Without the AC5, the PW is pretty close range only for any flash that's not a 430EX II. If you're using a 430EX II, you don't have to worry about limited range at all. The AC5 shows some promising results...
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKd2vLuVfms

For the RP, you can use an ST-E2 and not waste a flash by requiring it on camera.

Either of the systems will work as needed. It's really just a matter of cost and personal preference at this point, IMO.


Well that's good to know about the ST-E2. Not as big/bulky, but still a couple of hundred bucks for it.

[viet]

Without the AC5, the PW is pretty close range only for any flash that's not a 430EX II. If you're using a 430EX II, you don't have to worry about limited range at all. The AC5 shows some promising results...
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKd2vLuVfms

For the RP, you can use an ST-E2 and not waste a flash by requiring it on camera.

Either of the systems will work as needed. It's really just a matter of cost and personal preference at this point, IMO.

I don't have any problems with my 580EX through a couple of walls or ~100 feet. I haven't tried further than that because I don't have a need to shoot that far, but if there's no problem at ~100 feet, I doubt you'd have problems further. The 580EX II seems to be the most affected when the new PW came out, but I haven't heard much about them after the firmware.

I'm an engineer, and the way I see it. Radiopopper is a clever work around, but it only works as a blind middle man, while PW actually reversed engineer the ttl from Canon so in the future they'll be able to add more features to their products, while radiopoppers will more than likely hit a limit to what they can add to their products. But then, if you work with studio flashes like the Alien Bees, Radiopoppers might be a better solution.

[mattograph]

I'm an engineer, and the way I see it. Radiopopper is a clever work around, but it only works as a blind middle man, while PW actually reversed engineer the ttl from Canon so in the future they'll be able to add more features to their products, while radiopoppers will more than likely hit a limit to what they can add to their products. But then, if you work with studio flashes like the Alien Bees, Radiopoppers might be a better solution.

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying...... can you expound?

[viet]

I'm not sure I follow what you are saying...... can you expound?

Radiopopper just relays the information blindly, while PW actually reverse/engineer what the signal means and transmit them.

Others can probably explain it better than me, but it basically is this. Radiopopper takes the IR signal from Canon / Nikon / etc. and converts them to radio signal, transmits it to the other end, which converts back to IR, without knowing what the signal means.

PW decodes / reverse-engineers the signal directly, then transmit them to the other end, which tells the flash(es) what to do. Since PW knows what they are transmitting, they can alter, enhance it further, an example is the beta-testing of the new firmware for a better bounced flash that I linked the article above. I hope this helps.

[mattograph]

Ok, so you are saying that PW can actually add features to the flash equation itself. I see what you are saying now. For what its worth -- I concur.

Of course, if Canon releases a new flash, then there is no guarantee that the new features in the PWs can or will be supportable. Of course, you never had them to begin with in the RPs.

BTW -- RPs actually don't take the IR signal -- they interpret the magnetic impulses generated by the flash. Its really quite cool the way they did it. However, that doesn't change your spot on analysis.

[viet]

Ok, so you are saying that PW can actually add features to the flash equation itself. I see what you are saying now. For what its worth -- I concur.

Of course, if Canon releases a new flash, then there is no guarantee that the new features in the PWs can or will be supportable. Of course, you never had them to begin with in the RPs.

BTW -- RPs actually don't take the IR signal -- they interpret the magnetic impulses generated by the flash. Its really quite cool the way they did it. However, that doesn't change your spot on analysis.

I read a bit about that a long time ago but didn't remember for sure. Thanks for pointing that out.

Also FWIW, before PW came out with their ttl triggers, I used RPs whenever I needed high speed sync or ttl, other than that I've been using PWs forever, so it made sense for me to go with one brand once their product reached the matured state. But if the OP or anyone new to the game, they are free to choose whichever works for them. Frankly, if PW didn't come out with their ttl triggers, I'd still be using RPs.

[mattograph]

For me, since I shoot architecture, the RPs gave me full manual control over flashes that are sometime 3 stories above my head. For me they are great. But I bet I could live with PWs.

[wellyman]

Wow, both of you have great points to consider. I also am needing these primarily for architecture photography, as mattograph knows as he's helped me understand the RP option already. The youtube video helped me feel compfortable with the PW RF issue. I currently have a single 430EXII, but my plan is to add 2 580EXII's and have 3 lights to work with at first. Now, I also wish to start working with portraiture, so Ifalso wish to make a decision based on multiple uses, but mainly I'm needing my equip for arch/interiors.

What's the advantage of using RP's with AB's? Interested as I'd like to pickup a strobe for the portraiture education, so this may be helpful in deciding between the two.

I do plan on using full manual controls over the flashes, so I hope both systems can do this. ETTL, nor HSS, won't be used, just remote adjustments/per flash unit is required for me to be happy.

Another plus with PW is the ability to remote trigger with a Sekonic which I also plan to add....

[mattograph]

I do plan on using full manual controls over the flashes, so I hope both systems can do this. ETTL, nor HSS, won't be used, just remote adjustments/per flash unit is required for me to be happy.



Don't assume that too fast. I use ETTL more and more all the time, especially when time is an issue. When you give it a chance, you would be surprised how could it can be. Bottom line is that you may find your style and needs changing over time, so don't make any decisions based on something "you might never do." I learned the hard way that this changes.

FYI -- Joe McNally does all his small flash work TTL. And he's okay. :)

[wellyman]

Don't assume that too fast. I use ETTL more and more all the time, especially when time is an issue. When you give it a chance, you would be surprised how could it can be. Bottom line is that you may find your style and needs changing over time, so don't make any decisions based on something "you might never do." I learned the hard way that this changes.

FYI -- Joe McNally does all his small flash work TTL. And he's okay. :)


I hear you. I prefer to buy once and not do the upgrade path. I'd love to have the capability of TTL and HSS for portraiture work, and as you have pointed out, architecture possibly. I'd like to have the options available to me if possible. But your point does stick. I was thinking of maybe just buying one 580 instead of two, and picking up a 285 for the second addition to my existing 430. But maybe it'd be best to stick to Canon's 430 or 580's just for future use. Although, I'm always surprised on how well photography gear retains it's value. Even if you make the 'wrong' decision for you, or you outgrow, you can always unload it pretty easy and without loosing too much, other than those bodies.

[mattograph]

I hear you. I prefer to buy once and not do the upgrade path. I'd love to have the capability of TTL and HSS for portraiture work, and as you have pointed out, architecture possibly. I'd like to have the options available to me if possible. But your point does stick. I was thinking of maybe just buying one 580 instead of two, and picking up a 285 for the second addition to my existing 430. But maybe it'd be best to stick to Canon's 430 or 580's just for future use. Although, I'm always surprised on how well photography gear retains it's value. Even if you make the 'wrong' decision for you, or you outgrow, you can always unload it pretty easy and without loosing too much, other than those bodies.

Money is always a factor. I think you have a good plan. Take it slow and a step at a time.

[wellyman]

Man oh man, everytime I think I 'get it' something just stops me in my place. A few things I've learned over the last day. Since I have a 5DmarkII, PW's are out of the question as they don't allow me to adjust the lighting independent from one another. Also, even if they worked with the 5DII, which I'm sure they will soon, you still would have to have a 580, or possibly the ST-E2, on the Mini/Flex. In order to control the light levels, you simply need a master to adjust the light levels whether it's PW's or RP's.

So RP's seem to be the ONLY route for me, making my choice a simple one if I want remote light level adjustments. When I was looking into the RP's further, learning about the AB/WL paired with the JRx Studio receivers, it makes me that much more ready to go with them. If I can increase my budget to, say, $2500 for lighting, I think I could get a hybrid mix of strobe lighting.

My thought is pick up a 580EXII, ST-E2, a Px transmitter, 2 Px receivers (1 or my existing 430EXII and 1 for the 580EXII), and I could either pick up another 580EXII/Px receiver, OR get the Digibee package and 2 JRx Studios and be able to control the light levels of both the AB's and the 2 speedlites. I'm also allowing for some light modifiers, another light stand, and maybe a couple of small softboxes for the speedlites.

Or, come to think of it, a third option instead of the additonal 580 or AB lights, I could get a 2 light Lowel Omni kit for a balance of flash and cont. tungsten....

[k_strecker]

and I could either pick up another 580EXII/Px receiver, OR get the Digibee package and 2 JRx Studios and be able to control the light levels of both the AB's and the 2 speedlites.

That won't work either. You need a RP Jr transmitter to control power levels via a Jr Studio Receiver.

Your PX won't be able to control remote power of AB lights. it will simply trigger them.

[wellyman]

That won't work either. You need a RP Jr transmitter to control power levels via a Jr Studio Receiver.

Your PX won't be able to control remote power of AB lights. it will simply trigger them.


That's not what I've been told or what RP claims on the website. Here's the verbage taken direct from them.

A setup example:

Canon 5DMKII with a 550EX and PX Transmitter can be used to control:
2 580EXII flash units in ETTL mode with PX Receivers
2 Alien Bee B800s with JrX Studio Receivers set to group A and group B
1 LumoPro strobe unit with JrX Receiver set to manual 1/32 power

With this setup the user is able to control all of the ETTL settings as they normally would using the 5DMKII with 550EX master. The Alien Bee B800s power levels can be adjusted from the camera with the PX Transmitter. The LumoPro strobe can also be turned on or off from the camera with the PX Transmitter.

[GerBee]

I'm having my share of shortcomings with my Mini/Flex combo so I'm not best pleased at present, however, I do prefer the PW M/Flex approach, once a few issues have been nailed and they've strengthened their physical product [or offer a more robust one?] then I believe the PW M/Flex has the potential to become De Facto.

I was never going to buy the original Radio Poppers but their newer version has a bit more promise, and currently are more versatile than the M/Flex ~ both products are still in developmental stages in reality so what one can say today may be incorrect or obsolete within a week or two.

[wellyman]

I'm having my share of shortcomings with my Mini/Flex combo so I'm not best pleased at present, however, I do prefer the PW M/Flex approach, once a few issues have been nailed and they've strengthened their physical product [or offer a more robust one?] then I believe the PW M/Flex has the potential to become De Facto.

I was never going to buy the original Radio Poppers but their newer version has a bit more promise, and currently are more versatile than the M/Flex ~ both products are still in developmental stages in reality so what one can say today may be incorrect or obsolete within a week or two.


I'm waiting for a response from PW to see if Manual power control works with the ST-E2 mounted to the Mini. Their info states that only with a 580EXII can you control power of up to three zones. From reading about the flimsy mini, I don't want a big 580 up there personally, so if I can't use the ST-E2 as hot shoe master, I'm definitely going with RP's. I also am trying to find out/confirm if it's even possible with the 580EXII with the 5DmarkII.

I guess the limitation of only being able to control 3 power zones would be ok. I know I can have as many lights in a zone. Hey mattograph, how many lights can you control with the RP's?

[wellyman]

Reply from PW:

You can use an ST-E2 in the top shoe of an on-camera PocketWizard, but the ST-E2 only has controls for ratios, not manual power. The ratio controls should work just as they do with Canon's optical system. The 580EX II is the only device that has manual power controls built in.

Nearly all the issues with the 5D Mark II were corrected in our 4.300 firmware release. You can read about the specific fixed on pages 3-5 of the addendum document here:
http://www.pocketwizard.com/upload/photos/610Mini_Flex_Canon_OM_plus_addendums.pdf

Our upcoming ZoneController will allow you to control exposure compensation and manual power settings for three independent zones. We expect to have the first production units ready by the end of the year. You can read more about it here:
http://www.pocketwizard.com/support/tech_bulletins/zonecontroller/

[k_strecker]

That's not what I've been told or what RP claims on the website. Here's the verbage taken direct from them.

A setup example:

Canon 5DMKII with a 550EX and PX Transmitter can be used to control:
2 580EXII flash units in ETTL mode with PX Receivers
2 Alien Bee B800s with JrX Studio Receivers set to group A and group B
1 LumoPro strobe unit with JrX Receiver set to manual 1/32 power

With this setup the user is able to control all of the ETTL settings as they normally would using the 5DMKII with 550EX master. The Alien Bee B800s power levels can be adjusted from the camera with the PX Transmitter. The LumoPro strobe can also be turned on or off from the camera with the PX Transmitter.

that's either mis-quoted or mis-understood.

The Jrx Tranmistter controls the power of AB flashes using dials. The PX transmitter has no dials, and is strapped to the on-camera flash. You have no interface through which to control the AB power via a PX transmitter.

You can simply trigger the Jr receivers on studio flashes in sync with your TTL flashes with PX receivers.

[wellyman]

k_strecker: I hear you I don't understand how it's done either, and I know you know your stuff. I've seen your other posts with your PW setup and you sure get good results. Here's the link where they state this:

http://www.radiopopper.com/products/

They say it's "adjusted from the camera". I don't get it, but it would make a difference and it sure would be nice.

I wrote PW a few questions, and it might be worth my while to go with this setup, the Mini/Flex route and get the zone controller, which I was told will be released this year. No idea on cost yet, but if I had this it would mean: I wouldn't need to buy the ST-E2, and I'd have a smaller profile on top of the camera, which matters to me some. I don't want a full 580 on top of the supposibly flimsy Mini either, as I'm clumsy at times. I'm still trying to understand how RP's control the power levels, and specifically how many different independent groups can be controlled, vs. PW/Canon's 3 MAX.

[wellyman]

It's confirmed that you CAN control AB's with the Px. There are two buttons on the Px that will allow you to control the power levels of three groups. So, RP's are the only solution that will allow remote adjustments for speedlights and AB's.