Hopelessly lost and increasingly frustrated....

[HMDH3]

I am having some trouble using the manual settings on my camera. and although I have read SOOOOOO much valuable information on this site and through the links I am getting more and more frustrated cause I can't seem to put it all together. I am to the point that I am tempted to use my spiffy DSLR camra as a point and shoot!!! I know the quality of pictures the camera is capable of takikng but can't seem to reproduce that on the manual settings. Is there possibly a cheat sheet out there anywhere that states when shooting indoors try f/x.x and ISO _____? I can't seem to put all this information together.....and despite my best intentions I can't find the time to take pictures of one thing on each setting so I would have a better understanding....thank you in advance as always!!!

[HeartMan]

Hi Hmd, I feel your frustration. May I suggest that instead of jumping right to manual, you use Av mode for a while. Take a bunch of photos changing just the aperture value, see the dof change. After you get the hang of that, switch to Tv. See how the speed of the shutter changes. Add a flash here and there. Just experiment, no cost for film and developing, so no hassle to shoot to learn with immediate feedback. You can then move to ISO changes, and when comfortable, put it all together if you want. But don't make your dslr a point and shoot, that would be a waste of your creative talent.

[HMDH3]

Thank you!!! AV it is.....I will try that I may have some time this weekend to get outside, but I can always try inside with an uncooperative daughter, but if it's just experimenting with AV and adjust the apeture! thank you!!!!!!!!! thank you!!!!!!!!!! thank you!!!!!! I feel less frustrated already!!!!!!!

[Chet]

Which camera do you have? When you use manual mode and look through the view finder you should see the exposure bar. Your goal is to get the little cursor to the center. Shooting indoors in lower light requires an aperture less then f4 ish with the highest iso your camera can pull off without adding noise to your picture. On my Xti I wouldn't go any higher then iso 800 for usable results.

When in AV your aperture is fixed so your camera will try to set the shutter speed. the slower the shutter speed ie. less then 1/50th will start to require that your object be motionless. So if you are trying to capture a fast moving child you will probably get blurry images INDOORS. A good flash is a better bet for indoor shooting. The little pop up flash can give you ok shots, but will probably leave shadows.

This is about as simple as I can state it for a beginner.
Also:
Lenses get more expensive the faster they are. So a lens that can do f1.2 is much more expensive then a lens that starts at f5.6.

[nicksan]

Which camera do you have? When you use manual mode and look through the view finder you should see the exposure bar. Your goal is to get the little cursor to the center. Shooting indoors in lower light requires an aperture less then f4 ish with the highest iso your camera can pull off without adding noise to your picture. On my Xti I wouldn't go any higher then iso 800 for usable results.


If you are going to chase the needle to the middle, then might as well shoot in Av/Tv.

The goal is to learn how the camera meters, consider the middie as a starting point, and adjust from there. In the case of Av/Tv, this means dialing in EC, in the case M, this means either changing the Aperture, shutter speed, or both. But I guess your point maybe to keep things simpl at first...It's just such a bad habit to pick up.

Read "Understanding Exposure" to well...understand exposure.:D That will set you free.

[DStanic]

Av/Tv/P mode are still great to get the full power of your DSLR. Shoot in RAW and edit pics afterwards and you can get great results. Alot of pros shoot in Av mode at least some of the time, with the knowledge of how to use M properly when needed.

[PhotosGuy]

Take a bunch of photos changing just the aperture value, see the dof change. Here's a shortcut:
Virtual Camera (http://www.photonhead.com/simcam/)
Notice the background change when you use his "Shutter and Aperture" settings!

Examples of why you can't always trust your camera's meter, regardless of metering mode.
Curtis's thread: Comparisons of metering modes - an eye opener! (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=86497)
See post #14 for my metering method, & good luck!

[Theus]

Here's a simple way to think about it. If you're shooting something that's still, use Av mode. If you're shooting something that's moving, use Tv mode.

Essentially, there are three setting that affect every exposure. They are Aperture, Shutter Speed, and ISO. The aperture controls how much of the background is in focus. The shutter speed controls whether motion is frozen or blurred. And ISO controls how much noise is in the picture.

For a given amount of light, when you increase one setting you have to decrease one of the others in order to balance it out. The semi-automatic modes in the camera (Av/Tv/P) do this adjustment for you automatically. They let you control one of the settings to be how you want, and then the camera makes the corresponding adjustments to the other settings for you automatically. (In manual mode you have to do this compensation yourself.)

When you're shooting a still subject, you don't care about motion blur. So in that case, you select Av mode because that allows you to choose how much of the background is in focus or not. For a portrait or an artistic picture of a flower, pick a small aperture setting (e.g. 2.8 or 3.5). This will cause the background to be blurred, and the subject will stand out. For a landscape picture, pick a large aperture (e.g. 11). This will make everything in the picture (foreground and background) stay in better focus.

(Note that a small aperture setting, like 2.8 or 1.4 actually corresponds to a bigger hole for light to come through in the camera. So you'll see people who talk about large apertures when they mean small aperture numbers an vice versa. A big aperture has a small number, and a small aperture has a big number, but don't let that confuse you.)

Now, when you're shooting a moving subject, you first have to make sure that the shutter speed is fast enough to freeze the motion (or blur it to your liking). In that case, you select Tv mode. For slower movement you can set the camera in Tv to use 1/250 of a second. For faster motion you'll want 1/500 (or more).

The third variable in the equation is ISO. Setting the ISO basically determines how much leeway you have to set the speed and/or the aperture. If there's not enough light to shoot as fast a shutter speed as you want or as high an aperture as you want, then you'll have to raise the ISO. Raising the ISO will add grainy noise to your image. The type of camera you have will determine how high of an ISO you can use before the noise becomes bothersome. You want to use the lowest ISO you can get away with.

So, the simple story is that for still photos, chose Av and use the aperture setting to control how much of the picture is in focus. For action photos, chose Tv and use the shutter speed to control how frozen or blurred the action is. Raise the ISO if necessary (or use auto ISO) when the amount of light keeps you from choosing the settings you want.

[Veemac]

...Is there possibly a cheat sheet out there anywhere that states when shooting indoors try f/x.x and ISO _____?...

Such a cheat sheet would basically be worthless, as "indoors" covers a lot of different lighting conditions and shooting situations. "Indoors" in a nightclub will have entirely different lighting (and type of lighting) than "indoors" in an office building - which would have different lighting (and type of lighting) from a private residence. One private residence could be well-lit indoors while another could be dark as a tomb, and require completely different settings. Without actually being there, it would be difficult for anybody to give you even "ballpark" settings to try.

In addition to the above tips, I'd highly recommend buying a copy of Bryan Peterson's "Understanding Exposure". It's a great book that explains the different exposure parameters and uses plenty of photographs as examples of how they work, when you would favor one over the other, and why.

[binlerne]

Also:

Lenses get more expensive the faster they are. So a lens that can do f1.2 is much more expensive then a lens that starts at f5.6.



You sure that's how it works?:lol:

BH PHOTO (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/542293-REG/Canon_2746B002AA_EF_800mm_f_5_6L_IS.html)

[form]

Any combination of settings you get in a non-manual setting can be done in manual too; your goal is to become as comfortable as possible by manually adjusting things until you find the exposure you're satisfied with. The metering bar is a general guide that gives you an approximately idea of how close you are to correct exposure. Its accuracy varies depending on the lighting type and any reflective objects that may confuse it.

Auto modes have their purpose: They're best for quick changes in environment when you don't have time to make manual adjustments and double-check.

[neilwood32]

Apart from reading Understanding Exposure, which will help you get the basics, there are a few things you can try which migh help.

Cheat sheets dont help that much esp indoor but one for outdoors that might be useful is the Sunny 16 rule (google is your friend) :D

1) To learn Aperture: Set up a shoot with things at various distances from the camera (i did it in a graveyard with headstones). Focus on the nearest and, starting at the largest aperture (lowest f number as it is a fraction of the opening), take shots at each aperture setting. Then look at them when you get home and see how each setting has changed the depth of field (area that appears in focus)

2) To learn Shutter speed: Using an assistant who is moving at a constant speed (running or jumping on the spot) and take shots starting at about 1/400s increasing every time until you are shooting 1/4s sec. Look at them on your computer and see how the speed chosen affects the appearance of the image.

From these 2 settings, you can work out what you need to set to get an effect you are wanting. Generally ISO falls whereever it need to be to get the desired combo of SS and Aperture.

For example: portrait (with blurred background)= Aperture as wide as possible (low f number). The shutter speed need to be quick enough to stop movement appearing.

Action (cars, planes etc)= Shutter speed as high as possible to prevent movement blur showing with the aperture and ISO adjusted to suit.

Basically decide on whats important in the shot (aperture or shutter speed) and adjust the other settings to suit.

[mgardner]

Here's my 2 cents. I know the frustration is... well... frustrating, but realize that it means you're learning. Make it your goal to gradually ease your frustration rather than eliminating it entirely and at once with a cheat sheet or whatever. It is worth the time spent reading about exposure , about white balance, about ISO, shutter speed & aperture. You'll get it soon enough, you'll ease your current frustration and it will soon be replaced by another. My current frustrations are composition and lighting.

[HMDH3]

Bless you all!!! and the sim. link SWWEEEETT!!!

I know it's just a matter of putting all of the information I've read in order in my pea brain!! :lol: I know that my camera isn't very new but all I can afford (right now, that is. I'm currently pleading my case for a newer camera). I will try to take in all the information you all have shared and put it to use. I bring my camera to work everyday in hopes that I'll have time before or after work to snap a few shots at the park. maybe I'll follow through with my threat today.

I can't thank all of you enough for your input. I KNOW it will make sense at some point...just taking my brain a little while to process and put it all together in a manner that it makes sense. :o

[tkbslc]

I was pretty happy with P mode for the first 6 months. I'd just start there. It still lets you shoot RAW, control flash, shooting mode, pick an AF point, etc., but you don't have to think about what aperture and shutter speed to use. Eventually you will start seeing where and more importantly, why you would have picked something different than the camera. At that point you can try your hand at TV and AV modes to control one aspect of the exposure formula at a time. a year or two there and the M mode will start to make a lot more sense. Until you know why and where you would pick something, using M will just lead to frustration and slower shooting for worse results.

[TampaFoto]

Simple , Take a photography course or two. Weather it be at your local photography shop or your local Comunity college. You will be amazed what you learn and how far your skills improve in a very short amount of time.

[net_tech]

I was pretty happy with P mode for the first 6 months.

so was I, but for much longer, my problem was I never paid attention to the green numbers at the bottom of the view finder or had a desire to learn what they meant until I found this forum. After I learned what they meant, I ran in to another problem. I was not sure how they are changed, but fortunately it was all explained in the camera manual , unfortunately not as easy as everything is explained here.

[Wilt]

First of all understand this...Exposure Determination (metering) is a separate action from making the settings (Exposure Control)!

Conceptually, metering in Manual is identical to metering in Av or Tv or P! The ONLY thing that the camera does in M is force you to set both f/stop AND shutter speed, whereas Av or Tv forces you to set ONE and the camera sets the other, and P forces you to set neither. In other words, if you hold the camera up to the scene in Av or Tv mode, and you then make a mental note of the f/stop and shutter speed shown in the viewfinder, and then set both parameters on the camera in M, the resulting photo would be IDENTICAL to using Av or Tv mode!!!

[HMDH3]

Thank you all so much for your input. the local community college isn't offering a digital class this semester, and I can't afford or have the time to take one right now. that's why I am trying to suck all the information I can from you all.

[HMDH3]

I forgot my smiley! :) this forum is at my fingertips whenever I want, or sometimes whenever I have time which is a huge benefit right now. in addition to wanting to learn how to take better pictures I am currently a videographer for my husbands second business, and that takes up a lot of time, downloading video, editing as I go (so I don't have a marathon editing like last season)

Sorry, didn't mean to get on my soap box there. I guess I'm feeling a bit stressed out.....

seriously thank you all for your input, I'm looking forward to taking some shots this weekend and try the advise I received!!!

[spkerer]

One of the "ah ha" things to realize is how much the in-camera meter FALSELY changes. That meter changes all the time in the same lighting conditions just because what's in the camera frame changes in color. DO NOT think that in order to use M mode that you'll need to be able to make adjustments as frequently and quickly as you see the camera's meter changing. The exposure settings do NOT change that quickly, the in-camera meter is lying to you.

While you're learning more about exposure, play with P/Av/Tv mode and note what settings the camera selects. Switch to M and dial in those settings and you should be somewhat close. Adjust from there and see the differences.

[Wilt]

One of the "ah ha" things to realize is how much the in-camera meter FALSELY changes. That meter changes all the time in the same lighting conditions just because what's in the camera frame changes in color. DO NOT think that in order to use M mode that you'll need to be able to make adjustments as frequently and quickly as you see the camera's meter changing. The exposure settings do NOT change that quickly, the in-camera meter is lying to you.

While you're learning more about exposure, play with P/Av/Tv mode and note what settings the camera selects. Switch to M and dial in those settings and you should be somewhat close. Adjust from there and see the differences.


^^^

Your in-camera meter is often being fooled -- it is therefore telling you a falsehood!. This happens when the scene does not average to 18% gray... such as
...the fabled black cat in a coal mine,
...the fabled bride in white gown on the beach, or even
....as the mix of black soccer jerseys vs. white soccer jerseys changes as players run in and out of your viewfinder.

In the last situation, the lighting does not change, only the subject brightness is changing. The correct exposure should NOT change in this situation, yet the in-camera meter makes you think it should be changing constantly in this situation!

[HMDH3]

Thank you! I had an ah-ha or TA DAA! moment tonight. I think I might have this dialed in on the av/tv/p modes. I'll learn what I can from then to make my choices on M based on that, in time....
thanks again everyone.

[GrizzlyMan]

Why shoot manual? Doesn't mean you don't know anything. I've been a photgrapher since the 70's and back in my film days I was all manual and you really needed to know lighting situations vs action. Back then ASA was a big deal in how film grain played apart of the final image. Fast forward to present day with digal.. The Digital camera was developed to take away all the guess work. In my eyes it's way to important to cature the moment then to worry or even think about what iso, f-stop, shutter speed to set.. Today being able to shoot raw (dng) images is amazing. I shoot all over the spectrum, P, AV, TV, M, etc... Mostly my last few times I've been in AV or P mode. I shoot 100% raw and process in lightroom and photoshop. So manual is not the professional setting.... A professional setting is what you like and get great results from. It's all about learning your camera and being able to be in a situation and decideding whats best and all in a split second.

Try P mode until you get used to your camera and learn what it can do. Don't get hugn up on M mode. The 40d is a great camera, I had one and can do so much. I have cheat sheets but never looked at them. The 40d was my first real dsl digital coming from film cameras. Now I shoot solely with D series and all L lenses. Good Luck and keep shooting.

[Photoform]

Why shoot manual? Doesn't mean you don't know anything. I've been a photgrapher since the 70's and back in my film days I was all manual and you really needed to know lighting situations vs action. Back then ASA was a big deal in how film grain played apart of the final image. Fast forward to present day with digal.. The Digital camera was developed to take away all the guess work. In my eyes it's way to important to cature the moment then to worry or even think about what iso, f-stop, shutter speed to set.. Today being able to shoot raw (dng) images is amazing. I shoot all over the spectrum, P, AV, TV, M, etc... Mostly my last few times I've been in AV or P mode. I shoot 100% raw and process in lightroom and photoshop. So manual is not the professional setting.... A professional setting is what you like and get great results from. It's all about learning your camera and being able to be in a situation and decideding whats best and all in a split second.

Try P mode until you get used to your camera and learn what it can do. Don't get hugn up on M mode. The 40d is a great camera, I had one and can do so much. I have cheat sheets but never looked at them. The 40d was my first real dsl digital coming from film cameras. Now I shoot solely with D series and all L lenses. Good Luck and keep shooting.
very nice, practical advice...

[JeffreyG]

Why shoot manual? Doesn't mean you don't know anything. A professional setting is what you like and get great results from. It's all about learning your camera and being able to be in a situation and decideding whats best and all in a split second.


I certainly would not shoot manual mode just to feel more professional.

The 'ah-ha' moment for me that made me stop using the auto-metered modes came when I was post processing a large number of shots from an event that I had shot in Av mode. I was tweaking the exposure of each shot +/- 1/3 to 2/3 stops to get the lighting to look just right.

I worked along steadily and then it dawned on me....The tweak in each case was precisely undoing a shutter speed change that the camera had made. I realized that if I had shot the event in M mode I would not need to have tweaked them at all.

I went back and looked through a lot of stuff I had shot, and the truth was obvious. In most situations the actual light in a scene is going to be constant. If you take a few seconds to meter the scene by whatever process you like, and then dial it in in M mode you will not need to touch the exposure again as you shoot. Even better, you will not need to tweak the shots as much in post processing.

The revelation is that M mode is a time saver.

[Wilt]

I certainly would not shoot manual mode just to feel more professional.

The 'ah-ha' moment for me that made me stop using the auto-metered modes came when I was post processing a large number of shots from an event that I had shot in Av mode. I was tweaking the exposure of each shot +/- 1/3 to 2/3 stops to get the lighting to look just right.

I worked along steadily and then it dawned on me....The tweak in each case was precisely undoing a shutter speed change that the camera had made. I realized that if I had shot the event in M mode I would not need to have tweaked them at all.

I went back and looked through a lot of stuff I had shot, and the truth was obvious. In most situations the actual light in a scene is going to be constant. If you take a few seconds to meter the scene by whatever process you like, and then dial it in in M mode you will not need to touch the exposure again as you shoot. Even better, you will not need to tweak the shots as much in post processing.

The revelation is that M mode is a time saver.

Great that you had that revelation...others need to have it as well. I made the last statement in Post #22 to make people understand the fundamentals that it is light falling on the scene that determines 'correct exposure', and not the subject brightness which affects the meter in the camera.

[HMDH3]

thank you all for your input but I have to admit most of the content has gone above my level of understanding at a practical level....I understand the theory, but applying it is well, another question. I did however take the camera out hunting and got some stills after the boys were done hunting. I have yet to download them to see how I did with TV and P modes. thank you all again. if I end up learning half as much as you then I'll be one smart cookie! ;-)

[Veemac]

thank you all for your input but I have to admit most of the content has gone above my level of understanding at a practical level....I understand the theory, but applying it is well, another question. I did however take the camera out hunting and got some stills after the boys were done hunting. I have yet to download them to see how I did with TV and P modes. thank you all again. if I end up learning half as much as you then I'll be one smart cookie! ;-)
That's one of the beauties of digital - practice is free, and you get instantaneous feedback! Read through the information as many times as it takes, take a look at Ben's Newbie Guide to Digital Photography (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=414088), and digest it all one small bite at a time. It doesn't happen overnight, but if you keep at it you'll see your proficiency improve and your results get better. I still would recommend that you pick up a copy of Bryan Peterson's Understanding Exposure, too...it's a very helpful read.

[HMDH3]

That's one of the beauties of digital - practice is free, and you get instantaneous feedback! Read through the information as many times as it takes, take a look at Ben's Newbie Guide to Digital Photography (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=414088), and digest it all one small bite at a time. It doesn't happen overnight, but if you keep at it you'll see your proficiency improve and your results get better. I still would recommend that you pick up a copy of Bryan Peterson's Understanding Exposure, too...it's a very helpful read.

Thanks! I did review "Ben's Newbie Guide" and there is a ton of great info. I read it often, and over and over and over again. I've read http://digital-photography-school.com/ a lot and it's a useful sight as well. I know it's a work in progress, and I'll get there..........someday. :)