While I wait for i7 iMac, I put together following Win7 machine:

[Mu Eugene]

The components are sitting in the Newegg shopping cart except for the monitor.

I specified the following in order to build something that is intended for Photoshop CS4 as its main use (I hardly ever play games, I occasionally use AutoCad, although I have not done 3D modeling and rendering for quite some time. I don't do video editing either). I aimed to stay within the ballpark total price of a 27" i7 iMac (as I specified ~ $2900 incl tax) and on-paper performance spec to be slightly above by focusing on trimming the unnecessary (sound card, blu-ray, webcam, etc.) and ramping up the parts that matter. The assembly does not look all that bad:

Intel Core i7-920 2.66GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16819115202) (was i7-950 but had to value engineer it)
ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16813131365)
CORSAIR CMPSU-750TX 750W Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16817139006)
PNY Quadro FX1800 VCQFX1800-PCIE-PB Workstation Video Card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16814133272)CORSAIR XMS3 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820145263) x 2 for 8GB
Western Digital VelociRaptor 300GB 3.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16822136322) (Primary OS/ Program Drive)
Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 3.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s Internal Hard Drives -Bare Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16822136284) (Data drive and Photoshop scratch disk)
Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate Full (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16832116718) (could be an overkill but only $10 over professional edition, and upgrading from XP requires clean install anyway)
and to keep everything in place,
APEVIA X-JUPITER S-Type X-JUPITERS-AL Silver Computer Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16811144199) (a compromise of least offensive vs. price point)
+
Dell UltraSharpTM U2410 Monitor (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Monitors/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=320-8277) (IPS:D)

Total ~$2750 (I also need to add CD/DVD burner for a small cost).


I've been a PC user since 1992 but was once an Apple II owner/Mac user.
I'm open to either platform but if I do make a switch to a Mac, now is the time as all of my software are out of date or unupgradeable.

I love the look of the well-designed Mac and would like to experience the hassle free OS, yet I am comfortable enough to deal with Windows maintenance (though time is scarce these days and I type this as I feel my wife :rolleyes:, lol). On the other hand, a tailor-made machine to suit my needs with provision to expand is quite liberating too, especially compared with a tightly packaged, yet droolingly beautiful all-in-one iMac.

Which way to go? I only buy a new system every 5 years on average. Any thoughts would be very much appreciated (hopefully without having the thread closed - though I know Mac vs PC threads do tend to end up in one place and I apologize in advance for sowing the seed).

[Kronie]

I bought the 27" i7 Quad the day it was announced. Hopefully its worth the wait!

It really just comes down to what OS you prefer AND what software you have invested in.

Get the Mac.....

[Moppie]

The components are sitting in the Newegg shopping cart except for the monitor.

I specified the following in order to build something that is intended for Photoshop CS4 as its main use (I hardly ever play games, I occasionally use AutoCad, although I have not done 3D modeling and rendering for quite some time. I don't do video editing either). I aimed to stay within the ballpark total price of a 27" i7 iMac (as I specified ~ $2900 incl tax) and on-paper performance spec to be slightly above by focusing on trimming the unnecessary (sound card, blu-ray, webcam, etc.) and ramping up the parts that matter. The assembly does not look all that bad:

Intel Core i7-920 2.66GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16819115202) (was i7-950 but had to value engineer it)
ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16813131365)
CORSAIR CMPSU-750TX 750W Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16817139006)
PNY Quadro FX1800 VCQFX1800-PCIE-PB Workstation Video Card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16814133272)CORSAIR XMS3 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820145263) x 2 for 8GB
Western Digital VelociRaptor 300GB 3.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16822136322) (Primary OS/ Program Drive)
Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 3.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s Internal Hard Drives -Bare Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16822136284) (Data drive and Photoshop scratch disk)
Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate Full (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16832116718) (could be an overkill but only $10 over professional edition, and upgrading from XP requires clean install anyway)
and to keep everything in place,
APEVIA X-JUPITER S-Type X-JUPITERS-AL Silver Computer Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16811144199) (a compromise of least offensive vs. price point)
+
Dell UltraSharpTM U2410 Monitor (http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Monitors/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&cs=19&sku=320-8277) (IPS:D)

Total ~$2750 (I also need to add CD/DVD burner for a small cost).


I've been a PC user since 1992 but was once an Apple II owner/Mac user.
I'm open to either platform but if I do make a switch to a Mac, now is the time as all of my software are out of date or unupgradeable.

I love the look of the well-designed Mac and would like to experience the hassle free OS, yet I am comfortable enough to deal with Windows maintenance (though time is scarce these days and I type this as I feel my wife :rolleyes:, lol). On the other hand, a tailor-made machine to suit my needs with provision to expand is quite liberating too, especially compared with a tightly packaged, yet droolingly beautiful all-in-one iMac.

Which way to go? I only buy a new system every 5 years on average. Any thoughts would be very much appreciated (hopefully without having the thread closed - though I know Mac vs PC threads do tend to end up in one place and I apologize in advance for sowing the seed).



There is a big difference between what you have spec'd and an iMac.

The iMac has a fixed screen, a single HDD, dual channel RAM and no ablity what so ever to upgrade in the future.

Your machine has multiple HDD's, which improves performance, allows for a seperate scratch, and means you can add more space as and when you need to, with out having to attach lots of external drives.
You can also use an e-SATA drive for your external back up, which is several times faster than a firewire or USB drive.

The i7 920 also uses tri channel RAM, which is a bit faster than dual. (so change that 8GB to either 6GB (3x2) and 12GB (6x2).


I don't know what version of Windows you last used, but there is no longer any "Windows maintenance" needed. There never really was a lot that needed to be done (unless the last version you used was 3.1), but what is needed is now done automatically and invisibly when the system is idle, or has excess resources available.
Windows Vista is very easy and simple to use, there is a reason so many people like to think MS copied OS-X with it, and Windows 7 is simply an improvement upon Vista.



You've choosen a good collection of high quality parts with a well known and proven record of working well together, all of them are 100% supported by Windows 7.
You will have a very stable, very fast and very reliable photo editing work station.
If you throw in an after market CPU cooler and a couple of ultra quite case fans, it will also be very, very quite. Much quieter than a quadcore iMac will ever be.

[fixmdude]

I don't think that the i7 920 2.66 is as fast as the iMac's i7 2.8, it might be as fast as the iMac's i5 2.66 option, so that step down might cancel out the advantage of getting the faster RAM and HD in the PC.
I would never buy another monitor that was flourescent backlit. Only LED backlit from now on. Fourescent bulbs are their brightest when they are new, so they look good in the store and on day 1, but they lose brightness as they are used. My machine is on all day every day for work. After one year it's noticeably dimmer, after 2 years it doesn't turn up bright enough at full, after 3 I'm beginning to strain. LED backlighting stays full bright for the life of the monitor. iMac has that now, or for the PC consider the Samsung SyncMaster XL2370 Full HD LED or something similar.
I was PC from '91 through late 2007, then I switched to the aluminum iMac 24" because it drew 1/3 the power of my PC which impacted my electric bill, it was completely quiet instead of loud fan noises all day long, and it fit easily where I put it without needing to find a spot for a large tower. Also, all parts are supported by Apple for drivers. I still run Windows XP in Bootcamp, but it's easy to rebuild it if needed without spending all day looking for drivers for the right parts. All Windows drivers are supplied by the same company on the same Leopard CD. (Official Windows 7 Bootcamp support won't be out for a another month or two yet.)
The most important items: 1) LED display, 2) speed, 3) noise, 4) power consumption and heat, 5) size and space. You can alter your PC specs to take care of 1 and 2 by spending a little bit more, but 3-5 will still be a problem with a standard PC. I looked into going with a small format PC such as the Shuttle i7, but then the price goes through the roof.

[wlescall]

How did you get to $2900 for the i7 iMac?

$2199 Base 27" i7 iMac
$250 2 TB HD
$2499 total

Order RAM elsewhere (OWC, etc) It is less expensive and just as reliable.

Also, there is an educational or NAPP discount available.

[Moppie]

I was PC from '91 through late 2007, then I switched to the aluminum iMac 24" because it drew 1/3 the power of my PC which impacted my electric bill, it was completely quiet instead of loud fan noises all day long, and it fit easily where I put it without needing to find a spot for a large tower. Also, all parts are supported by Apple for drivers. I still run Windows XP in Bootcamp, but it's easy to rebuild it if needed without spending all day looking for drivers for the right parts. All Windows drivers are supplied by the same company on the same Leopard CD. (Official Windows 7 Bootcamp support won't be out for a another month or two yet.)


Windows has moved on since 2000, ME and XP. Vista and 7 either have the drivers already, or can find them online quickly and easily.
I remember having huge problems with drivers for ME and XP but in 2 years I've yet to have a problem with Vista, and that is after building 5 systems and helping friends with several others.

The dual core iMac's have low power consumption because they use a lot of laptop based parts (CPU etc).
The i5 and i7 iMacs use desktop versions of the processors, so they will use as much power as a regular work station running similar spec.

[Mu Eugene]

How did you get to $2900 for the i7 iMac?

$2199 Base 27" i7 iMac
$250 2 TB HD
$2499 total

Order RAM elsewhere (OWC, etc) It is less expensive and just as reliable.

Also, there is an educational or NAPP discount available.

Sorry, to clarify further: as above, + Applecare, Mini-displayport to DVI connector and NYS tax :cry:

*edit* thanks for the input so far - please keep them coming. Sorry I can't respond to each single response, as I am in a digesting information mode. I am on XP sp3 and I've had two BSOD during XP's deployment (from 2002 until now).
The system I spec'd was definitely made with a singular purpose - to build a photoshop CS4 machine within a similar budget to the core i7 iMac as built and listed above. Yet, I am at a stage of life I can/have to let go of certain particularities and go with a flow, so to imagine being greeted by a beautifully designed and engineered iMac at home office alone could offset some of the performance issues. iMac, for lack of customizeability is like a stock car suspension tuned to please the greatest number of buyers, while the custom-built is like custom sport-tuning - gonna feel every bump and grind but the way it takes those corners can't be compared...

[fixmdude]

The dual core iMac's have low power consumption because they use a lot of laptop based parts (CPU etc).
The i5 and i7 iMacs use desktop versions of the processors, so they will use as much power as a regular work station running similar spec.


True, but there aren't regular workstations running similar specs at this time. The i7 920 2.66 processor in his quote uses 130 W, the i7 850 2.8 quad-core in the iMac uses 90 W. The iMac is built for power efficiency. The fully loaded i7 iMac with LED monitor uses a 365W power supply. The PC containing separate motherboard, PCI cards, full-powered video card (Apple tunes their video cards for efficiency as well.) will use that much without including the monitor, which will also have its own power supply (and waste more power if it isn't LED. )

[basroil]

True, but there aren't regular workstations running similar specs at this time. The i7 920 2.66 processor in his quote uses 130 W, the i7 850 2.8 quad-core in the iMac uses 90 W. The iMac is built for power efficiency. The fully loaded i7 iMac with LED monitor uses a 365W power supply. The PC containing separate motherboard, PCI cards, full-powered video card (Apple tunes their video cards for efficiency as well.) will use that much without including the monitor, which will also have its own power supply (and waste more power if it isn't LED. )

I find that untrue... at full cpu load with a 24" standard backlit monitor (2408WFP, which sucks up more electricity than who knows what), my i7 desktop (i7 920, stock speed) draw peaks at 320W, averaging just under 300. That number includes three externals, three internals, and a dvd drive (dvd drive idle takes almost nothing, others between 2w and 8w idle, 6w to 15w active) power readings were taken from the UPS

[Mu Eugene]

I don't profess to know too much about CPU's but after about a half day of research, 920, as noted, uses tri-channel ram, (I have to go back and modify the RAM in the specs), and there was something about socket LGA 1366 having some advantage over 860 with LGA 1156 used in the iMac - was it the future i9 upgrade?

I initially spec'd 950 but it blew the budget so 920 was brought in its place.

[Moppie]

For some reason Intel have released two different sockets for the new processors.
The 1366 is the original i7, released at the end of last year. The 1156 was just released this year. Both have an i7 CPU, and the 1156 also has an i5.
The differences are not clear, and from tests it appears there is little performance difference between the i7 920, the i7 860 and the i5.

However, Intel have indicated that the 1156 socket is for consumer level systems, while the 1366 socket will be used for high end work station systems. So in theory the 1156 socket will get new, higher performance chips (6 cores??) while the 1366 socket will get mid range performance, but use less power, be quieter etc.
Or, remembering that this is Intel, they could just drop the whole lot next year and come out with a new socket again :)

[MaxxuM]

I don't know what version of Windows you last used, but there is no longer any "Windows maintenance" needed. There never really was a lot that needed to be done (unless the last version you used was 3.1), but what is needed is now done automatically and invisibly when the system is idle, or has excess resources available.
Windows Vista is very easy and simple to use, there is a reason so many people like to think MS copied OS-X with it, and Windows 7 is simply an improvement upon Vista.

It's always good to do some maintenance, regardless of OS. In Window's you'll want to do Disk Cleanup, Defrag (supposed to be automatic, but will not complete unless you leave your machine on), get rid of broken/missing keys (registry), update drivers as needed, update BIOS as needed, check Problem Reports & Solutions from time to time, trim unwanted startup items, check Windows Error Logs from time to time and when uninstalling use a program like Revo Uninstaller (32bit only I think atm) and after a year at least one full diagnostic of your machine. If you do these things many of the mysterious 'problems' can be avoided. Like car's, computers need a little preventive maintenance to keep running smoothly.

OS X does most of this with scripts and you should check from time to time to see if they're running as they should. OS X also defrags on the fly as well as delays writes to consolidate files. OS X also can benefit from checking permissions and startup items - but those are pretty much par for the course.

[Moppie]

It's always good to do some maintenance, regardless of OS. In Window's you'll want to do Disk Cleanup, Defrag (supposed to be automatic, but will not complete unless you leave your machine on), get rid of broken/missing keys (registry), update drivers as needed, update BIOS as needed, check Problem Reports & Solutions from time to time, trim unwanted startup items, check Windows Error Logs from time to time and when uninstalling use a program like Revo Uninstaller (32bit only I think atm) and after a year at least one full diagnostic of your machine. If you do these things many of the mysterious 'problems' can be avoided. Like car's, computers need a little preventive maintenance to keep running smoothly.


Your still thinking in the past.

Vista does on the fly defrag, and it will complete when your machine is next on and the disk isn't being used. It will pause and restart as many times as necessary to complete the job.

I don't know about the rest of whats on your list, but I've done zero maintenance on my machine, other than blow some dust out, and I have zero issues.

Like cars, computers have come a long way. Last time I serviced my car all I did was change the oil and filter.
I didn't have to set the timing, adjust the points, alter the fuel ratios, balance the carbs, fill the dash posts, grease the suspension bushes, gap the plugs, set the valve clearances, bleed the brakes, adjust the drums, change the g/box oil, change the diff oil, or grease the drive shaft splines.
But then there is a huge difference between my current car, a mid 90s Honda, and my second car, an early 70s Triumph.
The concept maybe the same, but the technology and engineering has changed considerably, has as the reliability and need for maintenance.

[MaxxuM]

Your still thinking in the past.

Vista does on the fly defrag, and it will complete when your machine is next on and the disk isn't being used. It will pause and restart as many times as necessary to complete the job.

I don't know about the rest of whats on your list, but I've done zero maintenance on my machine, other than blow some dust out, and I have zero issues.

Like cars, computers have come a long way. Last time I serviced my car all I did was change the oil and filter.
I didn't have to set the timing, adjust the points, alter the fuel ratios, balance the carbs, fill the dash posts, grease the suspension bushes, gap the plugs, set the valve clearances, bleed the brakes, adjust the drums, change the g/box oil, change the diff oil, or grease the drive shaft splines.
But then there is a huge difference between my current car, a mid 90s Honda, and my second car, an early 70s Triumph.
The concept maybe the same, but the technology and engineering has changed considerably, has as the reliability and need for maintenance.

Yea, I'm a stickler sometimes for accuracy - thus being in the technology field :) If you have Vista or Windows 7 you can type msconfig, defrag, problem, event and so on in your search bar and those programs will come up - disk cleanup is under your hard drive properties. You'd be amazed at how may errors, corrupt drivers and problems Windows has encountered. I've seen 5-10% speedup's just from running CCleaner on six month old computers. If you don't have at least a dozen critical errors on a six month or older machine I'd say you're either very lucky or an experienced Windows user. If you haven't done a Disk Cleanup in more than a year you'd probably gain from 5-10GB from cache, hibernate, old/compressible files... That's clutter that Windows Indexing Service must search every time you turn on your computer. A lot of that disk activity isn't defraging, it's indexing. Turning off Indexing is often a big performance booster options.

Edit: Just thought of a better analogy. Think of it as carpet in a home. Over time it collects dust, you vacuum, but there's still some dust in there. Over the years (months for PCs) when you remove the carpet you realize it's filthy despite spelling like the latest carpet freshener. If you dare to look, you'll find all manner of things Windows is doing in the background to keep working. Like, when you think you're recording at some level but Creative drivers in the background are failing so Windows uses a default driver to keep your music going but the quality is far lower than you expect. It's just an example, but an apt one.

[Moppie]

Yea, I'm a stickler sometimes for accuracy - thus being in the technology field :) If you have Vista or Windows 7 you can type msconfig, defrag, problem, event and so on in your search bar and those programs will come up - disk cleanup is under your hard drive properties.


Getting way off topic, but I just checked the problem reports and event viewer.
The only problem reports were from dodgy software that I shouldn't have been installing, or from a couple of games that had known bugs when released and have since been fixed with patches (The Witcher, and COD4 (one of the updates had bugs).

The only critical events related to drivers were related to my Phone, which is a Chinese made HTC thats not supported outside of China. It still works with active sync though.
Also lots of crap relating to losing network connection (had some problems with an ISP), lots of stuff about bad CD's (tried to burn to some old cheap ones) and pages of "Warnings" about updates not being needed for the version I'm running.

Basically it's just lots of fluff.

All my drivers work, all my hardware works, defrag works on all the drives, indexing is only turned for 1 drive and a couple of folders on another drive.


Vista works, it works well. Get over it.
Claiming otherwise is just scare mongering.


Lets not drag this thread any further off topic.

[Mu Eugene]

Edit: Just thought of a better analogy. Think of it as carpet in a home. Over time it collects dust, you vacuum, but there's still some dust in there. Over the years (months for PCs) when you remove the carpet you realize it's filthy despite spelling like the latest carpet freshener. If you dare to look, you'll find all manner of things Windows is doing in the background to keep working. Like, when you think you're recording at some level but Creative drivers in the background are failing so Windows uses a default driver to keep your music going but the quality is far lower than you expect. It's just an example, but an apt one.

That's quite an effective analogy. Every carpeted space I've inhabited in adult life became hardwood floor so I know exactly what you mean when one removes the carpet. The recollection of some of the instances is enough to steer me towards Mac. I also had in mind all the registry corruption and index file buildup was like gooey cholesterol buildup in one's arteries.

So during dinner, it occurred to me that perhaps Mac Pro may present a happy median solution - a base model Quad Core with a Dell monitor, for example, can keep the price in the neighborhood. I'd have to settle with some downgrades but would reap the benefit of both I'm seeking (beauty and the OS from Apple and customizability of the PC's.) or is it just a compromise solution?

Maybe I'm not searching the right places but the graphics card options for Mac Pro are very limited and expensive (eg. Quadro 4800 for Mac $1700) as well as any internal components for Mac Pro as opposed to PC components. I've noticed some posts by older generation of Mac Pro or Power Mac users struggling to find a replacement card or having to pay Apple $ to have it repaired once they go south.

[MaxxuM]

That's quite an effective analogy. Every carpeted space I've inhabited in adult life became hardwood floor so I know exactly what you mean when one removes the carpet. The recollection of some of the instances is enough to steer me towards Mac. I also had in mind all the registry corruption and index file buildup was like gooey cholesterol buildup in one's arteries.

So during dinner, it occurred to me that perhaps Mac Pro may present a happy median solution - a base model Quad Core with a Dell monitor, for example, can keep the price in the neighborhood. I'd have to settle with some downgrades but would reap the benefit of both I'm seeking (beauty and the OS from Apple and customizability of the PC's.) or is it just a compromise solution?

Maybe I'm not searching the right places but the graphics card options for Mac Pro are very limited and expensive (eg. Quadro 4800 for Mac $1700) as well as any internal components for Mac Pro as opposed to PC components. I've noticed some posts by older generation of Mac Pro or Power Mac users struggling to find a replacement card or having to pay Apple $ to have it repaired once they go south.

Like Moppie said, if you don't do much but edit photos, surf the net and write letters then you're going to be fine for a good while. I'm a heavy user and so is my daughter - most kids really abuse machines with tons of surfing, downloading from rapidshare and such and worse, search for free music, lyrics and porn - all things that are dangerous at the best of times. Mac's collect the same crud, but scripts clear most of it out and viruses/trojans don't have much if any effect.

You're right though - Mac Pro's are expensive but I love mine and wouldn't trade it for a Win7 i7, period. I was going to upgrade, but once I heard of the i7 iMac... Damn, I'm conflicted now.

I haven't read this whole thread, but why do you need a Quadro? They're way over priced IMO and only offer a small segment any real benefit. The 4870 for the Mac Pro can play all current games pretty well and will do more than fine for FCS, Aperture and LR2. There are custom Mac Pro's built for movie studios that can cost more than $100,000 that come with external drive arrays for the Red One camera systems. It all depends on what you think is necessary.

[fixmdude]

I find that untrue... at full cpu load with a 24" standard backlit monitor (2408WFP, which sucks up more electricity than who knows what), my i7 desktop (i7 920, stock speed) draw peaks at 320W, averaging just under 300. That number includes three externals, three internals, and a dvd drive (dvd drive idle takes almost nothing, others between 2w and 8w idle, 6w to 15w active) power readings were taken from the UPS

You aren't using all of the same variables. For such a comparison you woud need to be running all 4 cores at full load, and a 27" monitor at full brightness. (Your monitor uses 69 watts at default brightness vs 108 watts at full brightness.) You would also need to run a Radeon 4850 video card at full load, which, when purchased as a separate add-in card for a PC, specifies that you should have a 450 watt or greater power supply to use the card, because you need power overhead. You don't want to be running a system that draws 300 average on a 365w power supply, a true peak would burn it out. That's why I specified that the iMac runs everything on full load "using" a 365w power supply rather than saying that it pulls that many watts. Using your similar test the iMac might only pull 200w from the UPS. I don't know for sure since I don't have one yet to test it. But it is a fact that the i7 850 draws less than the i7 920, LED draws less than flourescent for the same size and brightness monitor, and all other items in the iMac have been purposefully tuned for power efficiency as well as to be as green as possible. i.e.: Most components are recycleable, that's why they changed their plastic parts to aluminum or glass, and they removed all mercury, arsenic, BFR, PVC and other dangerous substances from their components. I admire and wish to support that direction.

[basroil]

You aren't using all of the same variables. For such a comparison you woud need to be running all 4 cores at full load, and a 27" monitor at full brightness. (Your monitor uses 69 watts at default brightness vs 108 watts at full brightness.) You would also need to run a Radeon 4850 video card at full load, which, when purchased as a separate add-in card for a PC, specifies that you should have a 450 watt or greater power supply to use the card, because you need power overhead. You don't want to be running a system that draws 300 average on a 365w power supply, a true peak would burn it out. That's why I specified that the iMac runs everything on full load "using" a 365w power supply rather than saying that it pulls that many watts. Using your similar test the iMac might only pull 200w from the UPS. I don't know for sure since I don't have one yet to test it. But it is a fact that the i7 850 draws less than the i7 920, LED draws less than flourescent for the same size and brightness monitor, and all other items in the iMac have been purposefully tuned for power efficiency as well as to be as green as possible. i.e.: Most components are recycleable, that's why they changed their plastic parts to aluminum or glass, and they removed all mercury, arsenic, BFR, PVC and other dangerous substances from their components. I admire and wish to support that direction.
Two things that seem odd... one, having a low wall number is the only real meaning. My quad core comp (not i7) and two monitors (22" and 19") draws about 130 idle with a 95W, about 200-220 peak. A 24" iMac actually consumes the same (well, maybe 5W less) with only a 55W processor. Considering the 27" screen and 95W processor, we are looking at about 300W for the iMac, not 200.
two, apple's been on environmentalist groups's bad list for a long time, they were actually one of the last to get with the program. yes, they've improved in the last few years, but they aren't special, they are ordinary right now.

That's quite an effective analogy. Every carpeted space I've inhabited in adult life became hardwood floor so I know exactly what you mean when one removes the carpet. The recollection of some of the instances is enough to steer me towards Mac. I also had in mind all the registry corruption and index file buildup was like gooey cholesterol buildup in one's arteries.

So during dinner, it occurred to me that perhaps Mac Pro may present a happy median solution - a base model Quad Core with a Dell monitor, for example, can keep the price in the neighborhood. I'd have to settle with some downgrades but would reap the benefit of both I'm seeking (beauty and the OS from Apple and customizability of the PC's.) or is it just a compromise solution?

Maybe I'm not searching the right places but the graphics card options for Mac Pro are very limited and expensive (eg. Quadro 4800 for Mac $1700) as well as any internal components for Mac Pro as opposed to PC components. I've noticed some posts by older generation of Mac Pro or Power Mac users struggling to find a replacement card or having to pay Apple $ to have it repaired once they go south.


If you have corruped registries often enough to worry about it, you have bigger issues than the OS and hardware choice.

As for compromise, talk to any one of the dozens of hackintosh users on the forum, they would be glad to talk to you about running OSX on non-apple hardware.

[Tony-S]

The components are sitting in the Newegg shopping cart except for the monitor.

After you get it built, just put OS X on it.

[Kronie]

After you get it built, just put OS X on it.

And get ready to constantly tweak with the machine, and forget about updates. Hackintosh Macs CAN be nice but they can also be headaches.

I would love to build one just for play but for work I just get Apple built Macs. I cant take the risk of having some kext problem midweek or some other issue because its a hacked OS.

[Tony-S]

And get ready to constantly tweak with the machine, and forget about updates. Hackintosh Macs CAN be nice but they can also be headaches.

You obviously haven't been following the most recent developments in hackintosh building. The P6T SE is nearly perfect. ;)

[Kronie]

No I haven't. Keyword there though......."Nearly"

Let me know when I can just build the machine from parts and slap OSX on it without and tweaking and I will be all over it.

[Tony-S]

I guess if you want to spend another $1,200 to get the Mac Pro, so be it. The truth is, with the right mobo, hackintoshes are pretty low maintenance.

[Mu Eugene]

One of the reasons for going with a Mac/ iMac is that time I can spend tinkering with the system (a zen-like exercise) is scarce unlike my bachelor days. If I had the time, I really won't mind losing track of time engaged in my own activities but those opportunities are so few and far apart these days (between work, community volunteer work, family, DIY home improvement and maintenance). So the hassle-free computing on a Mac is a very attractive proposition, as the saying goes: those who own a Mac swear by their computers while those who don't swear at their computers. lol.

On the other hand, the setup I posted is all about workstation-strength CS4 setup I can manage with a similar budget to get exactly what's needed. Many pre-assembled high-end graphics solutions are geared towards gaming in PC camp and end up purchasing features that are not necessary but adds to the cost.(with a notable exception, W700 'portable' workstation by Lenovo) or outrageously expensive in the Mac side (Mac Pro).

What started as an idle musing morphed into a feasible, realistic solution that got me second-guessing my original intent (less hassle, more time with family). I'm hoping, based on Win7 reviews and user experiences so far, assembling components would be the only major time investment and running the system would be just as smooth as the Macs.

Hackintosh solutions do intrigue me but I have to be careful not to go too far - manipulating BIOS in my current situation is definitely in the realm of Colonel Kurtz (the horror, the horror) or Major Tom (Ground control to major Tom, your circuits dead, there's something wrong Can you hear me, major Tom?) seen from my family's perspective.

[Moppie]

One of the reasons for going with a Mac/ iMac is that time I can spend tinkering with the system (a zen-like exercise) is scarce unlike my bachelor days.



Then get the Windows machine you spec'd at the start of the thread.
All the performance of a Mac Pro, no need to tweak or adjust anything, no need to run maintenance checks (anything that needs doing is done automatically in Vista and 7) all for a fraction of the cost.

[Damian75]

Then get the Windows machine you spec'd at the start of the thread.
All the performance of a Mac Pro, no need to tweak or adjust anything, no need to run maintenance checks (anything that needs doing is done automatically in Vista and 7) all for a fraction of the cost.

Mac - For those who like to do work with there computer
Windows - For those who like to work on there computer
:lol:

[basroil]

Mac - For those who like to do work with there computer
Windows - For those who like to work on there computer
:lol:

Mac - for those who like ambiguous grammar and poor spelling ;)
(in case you didn't really understand, depending on how you read it, the mac computer does things by itself while the windows computer is a tool you can use to do things)

When it comes to photo stuff, hardware is the ONLY thing that matters, if you don't already have a mac. Get the best hardware your budget will buy, and you will not be disappointed.

[Mu Eugene]

Of the four IT techies I have also asked so far, two have recommended Mac (one uses Mac at his office) and I await responses from other two (one of them is a retired IBM researcher), which pretty much leaves one more 'swing vote'.

A sort of a flashback: 26 years ago, I agonized over IBM PC Jr. or Apple II for Christmas. I opted for Apple II but a month later, Apple launched Mac with that famous "Big Brother" commercial.

I got screwed by Steve Jobs then, especially after reading about how he pitted his Mac development team against the Apple II camp.

I must say, however, Apples were sweet when I had the opportunity to use them (Apple II, various Macs, and PowerBook 140 that my wife brought with her when we met).

In regards to long term outlook, whatever I outgrow will go to my daughter - and having remembered that her school uses PC, that could be another decisive factor. Though if I go with the PC route now, I'd rather buy her a new computer rather than to hand down my custom machine (as it will no doubt go the route of incremental upgrades). If go by way of iMac, I'll have it in dual platform either via Bootcamp or Parallels so she can enjoy the 27" screen in a couple of years.

I'm not entirely sure which way to go, as whatever happens in the next few years would best dictate my decision, including my job vs. moonlighting situation -- would somebody give me a schematic for a time machine?

work with vs. work on - I actually like both, therein lies the problem ;)

[Damian75]

work with vs. work on - I actually like both, therein lies the problem ;)

yeah me too thats why I keep a linux project box around :D

[Mu Eugene]

It looks as I am gravitating toward iMac at this point. Core i7 models have started shipping. Some who ordered almost as soon as the model was announced (Oct 20) are reporting 'shipped' confirmations. It looks like I will be receiving mine (ordered Nov 1) towards the end of the month - probably after Thanksgiving - which is a shame for I won't have an excuse for skidaddle-dooing dysfunctional family turkey dinner (don't tell my in-laws I said that).

I think the display did me in - I could not find a reasonably priced monitor that is both LED backlit and an IPS like the one on the new iMac (of course, there is the 24" Cinema Display but why oh why does Apple insist on not playing nicely with other hardware by putting a proprietary interface and not provide adapters - it's a rhetorical question to which I know the answer).

I will continue specifying my 'ultimate' Photoshop machine for fun, to kill time while I await the shipment, and hopefully be able to share with you some configuration suggestions (or I may flip-flop and cancel the iMac order, after all).

[Tony-S]

My i7Mac is still waiting to ship...

[basroil]

It looks as I am gravitating toward iMac at this point. Core i7 models have started shipping. Some who ordered almost as soon as the model was announced (Oct 20) are reporting 'shipped' confirmations. It looks like I will be receiving mine (ordered Nov 1) towards the end of the month - probably after Thanksgiving - which is a shame for I won't have an excuse for skidaddle-dooing dysfunctional family turkey dinner (don't tell my in-laws I said that).

I think the display did me in - I could not find a reasonably priced monitor that is both LED backlit and an IPS like the one on the new iMac (of course, there is the 24" Cinema Display but why oh why does Apple insist on not playing nicely with other hardware by putting a proprietary interface and not provide adapters - it's a rhetorical question to which I know the answer).

I will continue specifying my 'ultimate' Photoshop machine for fun, to kill time while I await the shipment, and hopefully be able to share with you some configuration suggestions (or I may flip-flop and cancel the iMac order, after all).

U2410, enough said. If you want larger (16x10 rather than 16:9 quad hd), then 3008WFP. Both have displayport as well as almost any other video connection you would ever need, so it'll play nice with any other apple things you may have, your bluray player, xbox360, wii, ps3, your desktop, and another laptop all at the same time. Should work fairly well with the iMac too if you ever need a better screen.

[Mu Eugene]

Finally, a closure to this as of this morning when the order status for the iMac changed to "Prepared for Shipment" with no more option to cancel the order.

As a matter of fact, if the status remained the same tomorrow, I was ready to scrap iMac altogether and put an order in for a refurb Mac Pro or custom build PC (another decision that I would have had to make) so I could set it up during the upcoming four-day weekend.

In the end, I decided iMac was a desktop laptop, much like my current Dell laptop that hardly ever moved from my desktop. I don't see myself going into serious production mode or having to rely on it to make a living so I figured iMac would be a good, but not perfect, machine for the next several years.

Anyway, for those looking to build something in the $2500 to $3000 range, here's what I ended up with:

http://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll/11-129-061-02.jpg
Antec P183 Black Aluminum / Steel / Plastic ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.282662)

Antec seemed the least offensive and the best made - also, their website had the least typo, indicating quality control. I don't know about all those blue LED stuff on some of the boxes and fans - if you're working on a color-critical application in a darkened room, wouldn't those gamer/ricer setup skew the color perception?
Check this out (http://www.ttlevel10.com/) too: I leave it to your taste (and available disposable income) to decide.

Intel Core i7-920 Bloomfield 2.66GHz LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80601920 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115202)
Since I need a monitor too, I settled with the tried and tested i7-920, but if you already have a monitor, then by all means splurge here for i7-950 or even higher. Socket 1366 will allow you to upgrade to core i9 processors in the future.


ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 7 Pro Rev.2 92mm Fluid Dynamic CPU Cooler - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835186134)
stock Intel cpu fans are ineffective - a little insurance measure.


CORSAIR XMS3 6GB (3 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800) Desktop Memory Model TR3X6G1600C8 G - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145236)
If you don't need a new OS, then spend it on 3 more sticks.


ASUS P6T WS PRO LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Core i7 / Xeon Intel Motherboard - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131357)
P6T Deluxe V2 would be just fine, but this board allows for more storage options, which can be useful for future expansion


CORSAIR CMPSU-750TX 750W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Compatible with Core i7 Power ... - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139006)

MSI N275GTX Lightning GeForce GTX 275 1792MB 448-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814127443)
I prefer Nvidia over ATI for some reason (I guess I like their GUI) and the color green. I had Quadra FX 1800 but since I don't foresee myself using AutoCad application in 3D in the immediate future, I went with the consumer version.

Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drives -Bare Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136284)
a starter (not to be confused with a boot drive) in-computer data drive

Intel X25-M Mainstream SSDSA2M080G2XXX 2.5" 80GB SATA II MLC Internal Solid state disk (SSD) - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167016)
Boot disk - strictly OS and programs only

PLEXTOR 24X DVD/CD Writer Black SATA Model PX-880SA LightScribe Support - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827249051)
Just something to allow photo CD/DVD to be sent to friends and family. For those who watch movies on PC's this is another area that can be upgraded.

http://c1.neweggimages.com/ProductImageCompressAll/23-126-043-05.jpg
Logitech 920-000914 Black Wired Ultra-thin Illuminated Keyboard - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126043)
I saw this at Staples and I love it so much that I plan on getting it to replace Mac keyboard that comes with iMac.

All this + Win 7 Ultimate OEM = $2100 incl. shipping.

I realized I could stretch it and get the NEC monitor:

http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product/?product=0d8eee69-9778-429a-89a0-9af4c4de3fe5 (w/ color calibration)

or

http://www.necdisplay.com/Products/Product/?product=29d41c3a-c07c-4dda-a199-13b8823de971 (no calibration, no polarizer, but $900! the price has come down)

I did not include mouse and a wireless receiver since I have items I can use, but those would add another $100 or so.

Build a RAID 5 array and add Wacom Intuos 4 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823100052&cm_re=wacom_intuos_4-_-23-100-052-_-Product) tablet, the setup would allow for a very good workstation.


I put in my calendar to revisit the thread in 3 years' time to laugh at how primitive all this would seem by then. ;)

[MaxxuM]

For not dealing with production, that's a hefty amount of cash to split between platforms - that's even before software ;) I do pro photography & TV production and didn't spend that much lol You can look at it this way; 5 years ago people were making a living on 1/10 of the power you've got between the two system and they did pretty good back then.

The iMac i7 is a departure from mobile technology though, despite the form factor (ie memory). There may be some mobile left in it, but not much. Why on Earth Apple hasn't put an eSATA in there yet is beyond me though. HD's is the only limiter for me, but even then, FW800 is plenty fast enough for video production as long as you use the right scratch setup.

Nice setup though. With that sort of power you could do some amazing things... Now you need to find some serious projects to push those machines :) but that's the fun part!

[BeritOlam]

Eeeeks....I'm not sure even Tim "the toolman" Taylor could have imagined something with that much power!!!

Argh, Argh, Argh, Argh, Argh, Argh.... ;) ;)

Congrats on your purchase!

[basroil]

Nice setup though. With that sort of power you could do some amazing things... Now you need to find some serious projects to push those machines :) but that's the fun part!

yup... currently i7 chips (including the 860 used in the 27" iMac) are just overkill for most things. Hell, if my computer averages more than 5% use any given day, it's been a very long and hard day of multitasking random things that don't need to be done all at the same time ;)

[Mu Eugene]

At this moment, the core i7's are overkill for most applications, but that means it has longevity. Once committed, I do own computers for 5 years on average. My Apple IIc lasted for 9 years and I did many a term papers on that little thing.

iMac's achilles heel is the HDD - if that thing fails, it'll be quite an undertaking, although iFixit already tore one apart for the rest of us to study and marvel at. I'm hoping that some enterprising mind will come up with a split SataII extender cable with perhaps a drive controller that will allow two drives to be attached (one internal, and one eSata port that dangles out from the sleek enclosure like a herniated intestine, ewwww).

A similar concept cable already exists for Mac Pro.

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MPQXES2/

[Moppie]

A similar concept cable already exists for Mac Pro.

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MPQXES2/

That's just a simple SATA plate for the back of any PC.
Much cheaper versions exist, I even have a couple spare. One that came with my case, and one that came with my external enclosure.

The problem is they need a SATA port on the m/b to connect to.

[Todd Lambert]

Yeah, it's really a shame that Apple doesn't at least put an expresscard slot in the iMacs. That would easily give it the ability to do e-sata.

I've got one for my MBP and it's great.

[Kronie]

I have been running my 27" i7 for a few days now and its quite nice. Perfect screen, fast and silent. Or nearly silent. Apparently the 1Tb Seagate drives that come with the iMac are making some grumbling noises. Mine included.

[basroil]

Yeah, it's really a shame that Apple doesn't at least put an expresscard slot in the iMacs. That would easily give it the ability to do e-sata.

I've got one for my MBP and it's great.

They even got rid of expresscard from all but the 17" MBP :confused:
There goes my friend's chance of getting a nice, cheap external raid solution.

[Todd Lambert]

Yeah, replaced it with a lame SD card slot.

I don't use anything but 17's in MBPs anyways, so it doesn't bother me any... but it's dumb. Why not put the expresscard slots in all the models, then at least that way, you can add more usb ports, more firewire, more sata, more CF readers, whatever. It allows the machine to be upgradeable.

This is definitely one thing that Apple does that I do not agree with at all. But, again, it doesn't affect me, so... lol

[johndeerrm]

You have a good system spec'ed out.

The OEM i7 cooler isnt that bad, my i7-950 hovers around 150F at full load.

My RAW file processing time went from one file every 4 seconds with my core 2 quad Q6600 to one file every second with the i7-950.

[gnnbtrn]

Finally, a closure .....I put in my calendar to revisit the thread in 3 years' time to laugh at how primitive all this would seem by then. ;)

Congrats on your new system!
Where is your Blu-ray drive?!?!?!:D or Card reader?

[Mu Eugene]

Thanks.

The spec is a workstation that was tailored to do one thing - Photoshop: it started out as an exercise to kill time while I waited for the new iMac to ship, plus I was frustrated by the fact that ready-made high end PC's were all unimaginatively catered towards gamers thereby I'd end up paying for the features I don't really need. In the end, it morphed into a very trim and realistic assembly, which prompted this thread.

I have no need for a blu-ray since I don't own any discs or hardware, plus I do not watch movies at my computer (the chair is too uncomfortable for that purpose). I also have a card reader already so that's also omitted from the setup. Feel free to modify above as you feel fit.

In the end, I decided that a high-end family computer would satisfy my photographic needs for the time being therefore, I stuck with iMac.

btw, it's here, but I have not turned it on yet - I had to clean and reorganize the desk that would *almost* look good as the new machine.

I'm too tired to set it up further; it'll have to wait until tomorrow morning.
In front is my Dell Inspiron 8600 I have been using from early 2004. I brought out a 17" Dell monitor from storage for a dual-screen setup. The wavy line on iMac screen is just a protective film I have not peeled off yet.

[basroil]

The spec is a workstation that was tailored to do one thing - Photoshop: it started out as an exercise to kill time while I waited for the new iMac to ship, plus I was frustrated by the fact that ready-made high end PC's were all unimaginatively catered towards gamers thereby I'd end up paying for the features I don't really need. In the end, it morphed into a very trim and realistic assembly, which prompted this thread.

Tell that to my i7 based Studio XPS 435MT... only 450W power supply, so you ain't getting a gaming card in this puppy.. doesn't even support SLI or Crossfire. It cost me 1500 including 3 year support and accidental damage protection, an extra monitor, and a few other goodies. But it runs CS4 and LR2 like nothing else i've used (even dual quad core xeon 2.8 mac pro). Most systems like mine are in that range, once you go above $2k all the computers are "gaming" because that's where the best parts have the highest use/need, and people have the most budget to blow on bleeding edge. The problem is that you were looking for a price rather than features. Same goes with iMacs vs Mac Pros right now. If you want to spend $3500 on a Mac Pro (with monitor) without planning on upgrading the graphics to workstation components, or having multiple processors, you're better off with the i7 version of the 27" iMac, just as fast at a lower price.

[Kronie]

I'm too tired to set it up further; it'll have to wait until tomorrow morning.


Let us know if your Hard Drive is making grumbling noises. My drive was constantly grumbling, almost like it had a bad sector but not a click, click clickity click. More like it would grumble for a few seconds, then stop for a little while, then start again, in no apparent order. It didnt matter what programs were running or no programs running. Grumble, grumble, grumble.

I ended up sending mine back for a replacement because of the drive.

[Mu Eugene]

No issues regarding HDD noise - even after partitioning the drive and reinstalling the OS. You did the right thing by sending it back. Unusual HDD noises are signs of bad news to come.

In my case, however, the unit did not turn on immediately upon connecting and switching it on. It took about fifteen minutes by my estimate - it suddenly came to life just as I was connected to the Apple support. Apple took note of that but so far restarts have been trouble-free after reinstalling OS and applications.

[Mu Eugene]

So, little update is in order.

I returned the iMac, and since I felt the buyer's remorse from the moment I found that I could no longer cancel an order, I decided not to replace the semi-DOA iMac with another iMac.

I went for a refurb Mac Pro (2.66GHz Quad-core) and splurge on the monitor (NEC MultiSync LCD 2690WUXi2) - after all, that component is the part that matters the most when looking at photos.

I could have built a machine on my own according the specs listed in the previous posts, but after such great customer service from Apple, I decided to go with them and enjoy it while Steve is still alive, even if he might be on life support as I write.

There are adjustments I had to make, much like moving houses, but overall, it's good. There are some aspects of Windows I miss, but there are some features that are definitely more intuitive and easier to deal with. I hope to embrace both Mac and Windows.

[basroil]

So, little update is in order.

I returned the iMac, and since I felt the buyer's remorse from the moment I found that I could no longer cancel an order, I decided not to replace the semi-DOA iMac with another iMac.

I went for a refurb Mac Pro (2.66GHz Quad-core) and splurge on the monitor (NEC MultiSync LCD 2690WUXi2) - after all, that component is the part that matters the most when looking at photos.

I could have built a machine on my own according the specs listed in the previous posts, but after such great customer service from Apple, I decided to go with them and enjoy it while Steve is still alive, even if he might be on life support as I write.

There are adjustments I had to make, much like moving houses, but overall, it's good. There are some aspects of Windows I miss, but there are some features that are definitely more intuitive and easier to deal with. I hope to embrace both Mac and Windows.

Just install windows 7 on that and all will be right in heaven once again ;) (though that may cause poor old steve to get a heart attack)

[Mu Eugene]

I have one hard drive bay available (currently 3 internal hd's: boot drive, 640GB that came with the machine; and two identical 500GB drives on striped RAID I dismantled and wiped clean from my existing external storage), so that bay is reserved for Win7 system disk ;)

Just waiting for SSD prices to come down...

[basroil]

I have one hard drive bay available (currently 3 internal hd's: boot drive, 640GB that came with the machine; and two identical 500GB drives on striped RAID I dismantled and wiped clean from my existing external storage), so that bay is reserved for Win7 system disk ;)

Just waiting for SSD prices to come down...

You can get SSD boot disks for ~$100 (30/32/40gb, even some 60/64gb disks)