Legal limits

[not_keith]

I've noticed that a lot of high schools have recently been making a pre-game announcement to the effect: "...photos and videos of tonight's event are not allowed for purposes of re-sale except for purposes of news reporting..." Obviously, this catches my ear. As a photographer, I have done a fair amount of research on photographer rights because there are a lot of misconceptions and we tend to get pushed around by uninformed people. To the best of my knowledge, given that these events are not on private property, I believe that there is no legal ground to prohibit taking of picture regardless of motive or reason. In terms of publishing for purposes of sale, I believe only the athlete himself or their legal guardian has legal right to prohibit. I do not believe the school nor state HSAA has any legal right to prohibit as I have not signed any legal document agreeing to such (i.e. in order to get credentials at some professional events, you are required to sign an agreement that I would not sell my photos except for purposes of news reporting). I also believe that someone does have the legal right to prohibit sale, they must formally (by registered mail) inform the selling party to cease and desist prior to taking any other action (which could include damages).

Any thoughts?

[Shootfilm]

I've noticed that a lot of high schools have recently been making a pre-game announcement to the effect: "...photos and videos of tonight's event are not allowed for purposes of re-sale except for purposes of news reporting..." Obviously, this catches my ear. As a photographer, I have done a fair amount of research on photographer rights because there are a lot of misconceptions and we tend to get pushed around by uninformed people. To the best of my knowledge, given that these events are not on private property, I believe that there is no legal ground to prohibit taking of picture regardless of motive or reason. In terms of publishing for purposes of sale, I believe only the athlete himself or their legal guardian has legal right to prohibit. I do not believe the school nor state HSAA has any legal right to prohibit as I have not signed any legal document agreeing to such (i.e. in order to get credentials at some professional events, you are required to sign an agreement that I would not sell my photos except for purposes of news reporting). I also believe that someone does have the legal right to prohibit sale, they must formally (by registered mail) inform the selling party to cease and desist prior to taking any other action (which could include damages).

Any thoughts?

The announcement alone the ADA would question if you were deaf. They whoever they are dont have to send you a letter they can serve you without warning. Public schools do not have to give you a contract. The rules are the rules as they are publish by entering school grounds you have to abide by the rules. Its up to you to find out the rules prior to breaking them.

SF

[Dennis_Hammer]

Public Schools are private property. Try and go and hang out at one and see how fast a member of law enforcement shows up and instructs you to leave. They do not fall into the same category as public parks. A school or school system has the definitive right to make rules regarding commercial use of its property and/or sporting event. Much like a professional team has the right to prohibit commercial photography. The best way to make sure you can't shoot is to go in guns blazing that its your right to shoot. Because they have the ultimate ability to ban you from the premises for being a disruption and they need no other reason than you won't follow their rules, whether you think they are right or not. On the brighter side I have not found a school system around me that has not been willing to let me shoot their events when politely and professionally approached before I even show up for one.

Also the athlete or parent can't stop you from selling a picture itself only from selling it or using it in a commercial manner, (ie: endorsing or advertising) selling a print requires no model release or permission, it is considered art.

[WMS]

I would suggest contacting the school district and seeing is an arrangement to photograph the games for commercial use could be arranged.

The district is within there rights to limit photography or to prohibit it entirely should they choose.

Wayne

[DDCSD]

No, they cannot stop you from taking or selling photos while you are attending an event. They can, however, ask you to stop taking photos and then they can ask you to leave if you don't stop. If you don't leave, they can have you arrested for trespassing. They can then inform you that you are barred from entering future events.

The schools have the right to limit access to school events, even if they are held in publicly-owned facilities.

With all of that said, some states are going way overboard on their media/photography policies. It should be up to the individual schools, at least during the regular season.

[PMCphotography]

There are lots of beaches in Australia that specifically prohibit photography, despite them being public property.

[wyofizz]

Does the school have an official photographer?

[blackshadow]

There are lots of beaches in Australia that specifically prohibit photography, despite them being public property.

Name one.

There was a bit of kerfuffle a while back with a council or two trying to ban photography from some beaches in Sydney but it was my understanding that the councils were unsuccessful with a blanket ban on photography. I think they may have been successful in prohibiting photography in the change rooms though.

[pantherphotos]

The announcement alone the ADA would question if you were deaf. They whoever they are dont have to send you a letter they can serve you without warning. Public schools do not have to give you a contract. The rules are the rules as they are publish by entering school grounds you have to abide by the rules. Its up to you to find out the rules prior to breaking them.

SF

Public Schools are private property. Try and go and hang out at one and see how fast a member of law enforcement shows up and instructs you to leave. They do not fall into the same category as public parks. A school or school system has the definitive right to make rules regarding commercial use of its property and/or sporting event. Much like a professional team has the right to prohibit commercial photography. The best way to make sure you can't shoot is to go in guns blazing that its your right to shoot. Because they have the ultimate ability to ban you from the premises for being a disruption and they need no other reason than you won't follow their rules, whether you think they are right or not. On the brighter side I have not found a school system around me that has not been willing to let me shoot their events when politely and professionally approached before I even show up for one.

Also the athlete or parent can't stop you from selling a picture itself only from selling it or using it in a commercial manner, (ie: endorsing or advertising) selling a print requires no model release or permission, it is considered art.

+1

Both of these are exactly right. I've been undergoing the same thing as you. I've done some research and have talked to some people, and the HS can prohibit you from doing so. If you do not comply, they can, and often will, ban you from the premises and prosecute you under the law.

I, too, have found, that if you approach the AD or the HS athletic association professionally and politely, they will be more than happy to work with you. I have a wonderful working relationship with the school I shoot for, and am developing a relationship with the HS athletic association. Just be kind and courteous!

The problem I'm finding, is that in Montana, the MHSA policy states that they own all rights and copyrights of any and all images taken at any of their events. See my thread I just started to see what comes of that: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=780239

[Jethro790]

I think they may have been successful in prohibiting photography in the change rooms though.

Well, I guess I'll change my vacation plans....

[PMCphotography]

Name one.



Bondi. I was there a few weeks ago taking pictures of my 5 year old daughter and I was politely told by the lifeguards AND police that photography is prohibited on Bondi beach.

EDIT: It's not technically illegal to take pictures on Bondi or Coogee beach, but surf life savers and police think it is. And the risk of having my camera confiscated, memory cards destroyed, or being arrested isn't worth the hassle, so I put my camera away.

[MJPhotos24]

I've noticed that a lot of high schools have recently been making a pre-game announcement to the effect: "...photos and videos of tonight's event are not allowed for purposes of re-sale except for purposes of news reporting..." Obviously, this catches my ear. As a photographer, I have done a fair amount of research on photographer rights because there are a lot of misconceptions and we tend to get pushed around by uninformed people. To the best of my knowledge, given that these events are not on private property, I believe that there is no legal ground to prohibit taking of picture regardless of motive or reason. In terms of publishing for purposes of sale, I believe only the athlete himself or their legal guardian has legal right to prohibit. I do not believe the school nor state HSAA has any legal right to prohibit as I have not signed any legal document agreeing to such (i.e. in order to get credentials at some professional events, you are required to sign an agreement that I would not sell my photos except for purposes of news reporting). I also believe that someone does have the legal right to prohibit sale, they must formally (by registered mail) inform the selling party to cease and desist prior to taking any other action (which could include damages).

Any thoughts?
Seems you're uniformed just like the people you mentioned.

[MJPhotos24]

No, they cannot stop you from taking or selling photos while you are attending an event. They can, however, ask you to stop taking photos and then they can ask you to leave if you don't stop. If you don't leave, they can have you arrested for trespassing. They can then inform you that you are barred from entering future events.

I'm a bit confused by that first sentence as they can certainly stop someone from taking images or selling on site if they want to. Of course they can't do it in a way that would be classified as assault or anything like that but they can make you stop, get in your way, physically remove you if they have to (security that is, not just some random person and of course they have to give you the opportunity to leave willingly and why most will just call the police instead of handle it themselves). Agree with everything else said.

I wish NY would at least take it to the edge, but not overboard, they let way to many idiots on the sideline that have no purpose of being there and are going to get some school sued when they're not watching and get run over by a kid and then blame everyone else for their stupidity.

[DDCSD]

I'm a bit confused by that first sentence as they can certainly stop someone from taking images or selling on site if they want to. Of course they can't do it in a way that would be classified as assault or anything like that but they can make you stop, get in your way, physically remove you if they have to (security that is, not just some random person and of course they have to give you the opportunity to leave willingly and why most will just call the police instead of handle it themselves). Agree with everything else said.


Reading that again, it doesn't make near as much sense as it did in my head. :lol:

I should have left out the "taking" in that first sentence. I meant to say that if you've taken the photos, they can't stop you from placing them online and selling them. Then the rest of it... :lol:

[MJPhotos24]

Reading that again, it doesn't make near as much sense as it did in my head. :lol:

I should have left out the "taking" in that first sentence. I meant to say that if you've taken the photos, they can't stop you from placing them online and selling them. Then the rest of it... :lol:
Hm, I wonder on that because I know in some states for exclusive deals (NY, IL, etc) they can make you remove them if online for sale. However, that would probably be for exclusives in championship series.

[DDCSD]

Hm, I wonder on that because I know in some states for exclusive deals (NY, IL, etc) they can make you remove them if online for sale. However, that would probably be for exclusives in championship series.


They can't legally make you take them down. They can make it so you never get a chance to take any again in the future, so it would be a good idea to comply.

Here's my "I'm not a lawyer disclaimer".

[RDKirk]

I've noticed that a lot of high schools have recently been making a pre-game announcement to the effect: "...photos and videos of tonight's event are not allowed for purposes of re-sale except for purposes of news reporting..."

Schools may have that right. In Illinois, the newspapers have been fighting it in court, because the Illinois high school association goes even further to prevent news photographers from secondary sales. The court battle is still going on here, and the outcome will prove whether or not the schools really do have that right.

[MJPhotos24]

They can't legally make you take them down. They can make it so you never get a chance to take any again in the future, so it would be a good idea to comply.

Here's my "I'm not a lawyer disclaimer".
They may have that right considering by shooting the event in the first place you're agreeing to their rules - this would be events that there's exclusives in place, kinda like IL.

[WMS]

Schools may have that right. In Illinois, the newspapers have been fighting it in court, because the Illinois high school association goes even further to prevent news photographers from secondary sales. The court battle is still going on here, and the outcome will prove whether or not the schools really do have that right.

Considering the amount of money an action of nature would cost my opinion would be to let the newspapers and Illinois schools slug it out while I watched from the sidelines. In the interim I would try to work an arrangement with the local school district, (one which I could get out of should the newspapers prevail). As cash strapped as California schools are I wouldn't be surprised if they were to go for something like this, in an effort to gain revenue from photographers.

Wayne

[DDCSD]

They may have that right considering by shooting the event in the first place you're agreeing to their rules - this would be events that there's exclusives in place, kinda like IL.


Below is from the IHSA's policies book. Man they have a ton of freakin' rules. Talk about an organization that just likes to make rules. They must have IRS agents on the board.

http://www.ihsa.org/org/policy/2009-10/policies.pdf
Penalty: If members of the news media do not abide by the news media rules and regulations established at an IHSA tournament/meet,
their credentials may be rescinded and/or they may jeopardize their opportunity to secure credentials in the future.

I didn't see a rule in there about not being able to sell prints though. I could have missed it in the 138 pages though.

[MJPhotos24]

Schools may have that right. In Illinois, the newspapers have been fighting it in court, because the Illinois high school association goes even further to prevent news photographers from secondary sales. The court battle is still going on here, and the outcome will prove whether or not the schools really do have that right.

This was settled in April of 2008, unless something else is brewing nobody is hearing about.

http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/news/2008/04/illinois11.html

Basically the case in IL is freedom of the press, nobody can tell them how to run their content except of course the people who run/own the newspaper/company (Fox News anyone, cough cough). However, the IHSA can deny credentials if they want to still - the ruling only applies to those who are given creds in the first place. A freelancer can't come in to shoot and sell prints, it's not covered under the agreement and not allowed.

[MJPhotos24]

Below is from the IHSA's policies book. Man they have a ton of freakin' rules. Talk about an organization that just likes to make rules. They must have IRS agents on the board.

http://www.ihsa.org/org/policy/2009-10/policies.pdf


I didn't see a rule in there about not being able to sell prints though. I could have missed it in the 138 pages though.
If you read it though it's for NEWS media and that anyone who gets a cred must be news associated with a news outlet. Some guy showing up to sell prints is not going to get a credential. NYS really needs to follow this and only allow news and the official photographers on the sidelines instead of any shmuck with a camera.

[DDCSD]

If you read it though it's for NEWS media and that anyone who gets a cred must be news associated with a news outlet. Some guy showing up to sell prints is not going to get a credential. NYS really needs to follow this and only allow news and the official photographers on the sidelines instead of any shmuck with a camera.



What's wrong with letting the school decide?

[blackshadow]

Bondi. I was there a few weeks ago taking pictures of my 5 year old daughter and I was politely told by the lifeguards AND police that photography is prohibited on Bondi beach.

EDIT: It's not technically illegal to take pictures on Bondi or Coogee beach, but surf life savers and police think it is. And the risk of having my camera confiscated, memory cards destroyed, or being arrested isn't worth the hassle, so I put my camera away.

I suggest you have a read of NSW Photo Rights (http://www.4020.net/words/photorights.php) something every photographer in Australia should read and have some familiarity with.

The police, let alone buffed blokes in little hats don't have the right or authority to confiscate or delete your cards.

I recommend you download the photo rights summary sheet and keep a copy in your camera bag - basically tell them where to go if you get hassled for taking photos.

[MJPhotos24]

What's wrong with letting the school decide?
In all honesty - they're idiots when it comes to this stuff. Schools let anyone and everyone on the sidelines it seems and letting a "team photographer", which is often just a parent with a camera, is not a good idea. These are the people who don't know what they're doing, go places they shouldn't be going, don't pay attention to what's around them, give away CD's to anyone which in turn hurt someone that has the exclusive, etc. Simply put many just don't know what they're doing when it comes to letting the right people on the sideline and someone trying to do a job (reporting news, etc) should have priority over others.

NOW, before someones panties get all tangled up - this is not for all schools, some could very well run it right and I know some who do. Problem is more in that they often do not and very often the administration has no clue about people on the sideline and coaches are allowing them not thinking through the risk. Some parent is going to get run over and hurt, sue the school and probably win.

[Sledhed]

What's wrong with letting the school decide?

Actually in Illinois the schools do control, until the championship tourney for each sport. The IHSA controls access for the championship games.

[MJPhotos24]

Actually in Illinois the schools do control, until the championship tourney for each sport. The IHSA controls access for the championship games.
Schools control regular season, then when Sectionals start at the bigger stadiums the Section controls, then NYSPHAA controls the states. All need to do a much better job of it!

[Sledhed]

The schools still control the sectionals in IL. IHSA only controls the actual championship game.

Some schools here do a great job controlling access. Others will allow a couple hundred people to watch the game from the side lines, which is just NUTS! When it's like that I usually go shoot from the back of the end zones.

[amfoto1]

Schools and other organizers are well within their legal rights to control photography at their events, whether on private or public property. In fact, when kids are involved, the courts expect them to do so.

Most allow parents and others to take their own photos for personal purposes, so long as it's done in a manner that doesn't interfere with the event, obstruct the view of the audience or endanger any of the participants. So they might prevent setting up a tripod or using flash, for example.

When it's a vendor taking photos that will be offered for sale to the participants, families and such, the organizers most certainly have full control over access. Someone shooting absolutely everything and giving away CDs or reprints to anyone and everyone is no less a "vendor" and just as subject to control by the organizer.

Yes, if you are caught posting galleries online and selling prints or files without the organizer's agreement in advance, or giving them away freely for that matter, they can ask you to stop selling and distributing. They cannot ask you to take them down, unless they have a more stringent policy that prevents parents and others from taking photos, too. But they can ask you to stop selling.

They might not have the "teeth" to make you take them down, if you don't do so voluntarily... They may not have the desire to pursue it in court or whatever, or to spend what it takes to do so.... but they can spread the word and see that you aren't permitted into future events.

I know of one photog who, because of her actions at past events, isn't welcomed at most... her work is pretty good, but her attitude isn't. And I know of another larger, multi-photographer outfit that's widely disliked because of their past actions, that only get the gigs they do because there are few outfits that can compete in terms of scale. Their work is pretty poor, but they are the only game in town for really big events (unless someone else antes up to compete with them).

News photography is usually an exception, but no big deal. A news photog usually shows up for 15 minutes, takes a few shots, then heads out to meet their deadlines. They do not take shots of each and every participant and keep shooting throughout the entire game, usually. Their photos are for publication, after which there are sometimes print sales, but they are minimal.

Whenever kids are involved, that ratchets up the responsibility of the organizers to control all aspects of the event, including photography. There are a number of reasons for doing so... safety being near the top of the list.

Schools (and others) can expect the problem of parents and friends with cameras to snowball. These days, there is hardly anyone at an event who doesn't have a camera - whether it be a camera phone or a P&S or an SLR. I can understand why there are announcements being made, and I expect they'll be getting more stringent in the future.

[DDCSD]

In all honesty - they're idiots when it comes to this stuff. Schools let anyone and everyone on the sidelines it seems and letting a "team photographer", which is often just a parent with a camera, is not a good idea. These are the people who don't know what they're doing, go places they shouldn't be going, don't pay attention to what's around them, give away CD's to anyone which in turn hurt someone that has the exclusive, etc. Simply put many just don't know what they're doing when it comes to letting the right people on the sideline and someone trying to do a job (reporting news, etc) should have priority over others.

NOW, before someones panties get all tangled up - this is not for all schools, some could very well run it right and I know some who do. Problem is more in that they often do not and very often the administration has no clue about people on the sideline and coaches are allowing them not thinking through the risk. Some parent is going to get run over and hurt, sue the school and probably win.

I have no problem with them controlling the state championships, and maybe even the sectionals, but I think the schools should be responsible for setting the rules for regular season games.

What I don't agree with is exclusives that bind the schools and credential requirements for regular season games.

[MJPhotos24]

I have no problem with them controlling the state championships, and maybe even the sectionals, but I think the schools should be responsible for setting the rules for regular season games.

What I don't agree with is exclusives that bind the schools and credential requirements for regular season games.
I don't agree with that - it's a procedure to apply and if you want to put the schools in charge they can still do that BUT there should be guidelines for it set forth by the state. They shouldn't be giving them to just anyone who wants to shoot just to protect their six as doing that will come back to bite them. Coaching I don't allow just anyone to come in and shoot unless I know who they are and why, other coaches don't give a crap. Who's responsible and getting named at fault when it comes up - the coach, the school, the AD, the administration, etc. Everyone but the idiot who had no clue what they were doing.

[ThomGascoigne]

Name one.

There was a bit of kerfuffle a while back with a council or two trying to ban photography from some beaches in Sydney but it was my understanding that the councils were unsuccessful with a blanket ban on photography. I think they may have been successful in prohibiting photography in the change rooms though.

Nudist beaches in Aus, photography is illegal isn't it?

[PMCphotography]

Nudist beaches in Aus, photography is illegal isn't it?

Yeah, I believe it is.

[blackshadow]

Nudist beaches in Aus, photography is illegal isn't it?

No it isn't. If it's public property photography is allowed; if the beach is on private property the property owners can restrict photography.

Although why anyone would want to take photos on a nudist beach is beyond me... they are hardly full of glamour girls!

[not_keith]

Thank you amfoto for a professional response. As for the others that took the opportunity to bash, I hope your photography skills out perform your people skills

[MJPhotos24]

Yea, so almost watching a girl get killed twice this past weekend on the sidelines she should never have stepped on in the first place it's just more reason they need to restrict access. In between watching her with deer in headlights and luckily the players sliding short, then with her back to the play the players avoiding her, another parent decided walking on the field in the middle of play was a good idea. The problem is not professionals, or even people that know what they're doing, on the sidelines, it's these people that are the prime example of why high schools need to be more strict!

When one of these people gets killed it's going to be a quick lawsuit to settle it all.