Selling Photos from and event with a Contracted Photographer

[unrlmth]

I took pictures at an event at my school. After I posted them on my SmugMug account I received an email asking if I was planning on selling the photos. (Which I am) There was a contracted pro there who signed a contract to be the exclusive photographer.

What can they do to prevent me from selling the photos. I didn't know about any contract they might of had until I got this email.

Am I correct in thinking that they could have made me stop taking pics at the event (No one said anything) and that their contract with the event promoters doesn't effect me selling my pics?

[Dennis_Hammer]

They could have made you stop taking pictures if they wanted to and they can stop you from selling them if they want.

[unrlmth]

What exactly can they do if I continue to sell them? Can they make me take them off the internet? Can they stop me from giving them away?

[Nightstalker]

I'm interested in this one as well.

I'm no lawyer but have some experience with contracts. You are not a party to their contract so I don't know how they can pursue you for any breach, unless of course the "no commercial photography" clause was included on the tickets or otherwise made clear at the venue during the performance.

They may have a case for taking the school to court for failing to stop you taking photos in the first place though.

[Dave.H]

If you have intentions of going pro, why risk muddying the water and giving yourself a bad name now?

[unrlmth]

I'm interested in this one as well.

I'm no lawyer but have some experience with contracts. You are not a party to their contract so I don't know how they can pursue you for any breach, unless of course the "no commercial photography" clause was included on the tickets or otherwise made clear at the venue during the performance.

They may have a case for taking the school to court for failing to stop you taking photos in the first place though.


No tickets. No announcements that I heard.

[unrlmth]

If you have intentions of going pro, why risk muddying the water and giving yourself a bad name now?

I don't have intentions of going pro (anytime soon). I am a junior in high school and do this to help pay for gas and more gear.

Also most of the pictures are of friends and friends of my brother etc. If I wasn't allowed to sell them I would give many of them away anyways.

[DDCSD]

They could have made you stop taking pictures if they wanted to and they can stop you from selling them if they want.


They could have stopped him from taking them, but they can't stop him from selling them.



With that said, if there is a contracted photographer for the event, you really shouldn't sell them. You don't want to pick a fight with a fellow photographer or get a bad name with event organizers. If you want to sell photos from an event, you should talk to the event organizers beforehand. There's a good chance you could get yourself banned from future events.

You never know, you might want to partner up with that other photographer in the future.

[GrizzlyMan]

Post your images and sell them you are in the right.. I agree if you want to go pro and if this makes waves i could hurt your rep for a short time.. Good Luck.

[wildland]

I don't know the legal realities here, but I know what I'd do with smugmug - make the gallery a "private gallery", maybe even password protected - then email your friends and your brothers friends etc. with the info.

[amfoto1]

I don't have intentions of going pro (anytime soon). I am a junior in high school and do this to help pay for gas and more gear.

Also most of the pictures are of friends and friends of my brother etc. If I wasn't allowed to sell them I would give many of them away anyways.


If you are selling images, then you already are a pro and are acting in a commercial manner.

It would be possible to argue that you are doing so, even if you were to give away the images for free. You might be considered to be using predatory pricing tactics in an effort to drive competition out of business, if you do this a lot... but you are also digging your own grave by devaluing your product, if you give it away freely.

Not to mention that you won't be buying much gas or camera equipment with "free".

The contract between the school and someone you describe as "exclusive" tells me you know at least something about the arrangement. Perhaps you have checked out their website?

It sounds as if you would hope to do more of this in the future (see bolded text above). One thing they most certainly can do is get you blocked from any future events. There may be other things they can do, depending upon the contract in place. You already are aware of their "exclusive commercial" arrangement.

How you handle this right now is sort a turning point, whether you will be sneaking in back doors to try to grab a few dollars away from a competitor or will be up front and professional and honest in your dealings with people. You are young, but you are building a "reputation" right now and how you handle these things can and will come back to haunt you or help you in the future.

What I would do, if I were you, is approach the contracted professional and see if you can work something out with them. If and when opportunity arises, you might want to bid on the contract with the school yourself.

You obviously already know that you aren't "in the right" and hiding behind password protected galleries won't change that.

[unrlmth]

If you are selling images, then you already are a pro and are acting in a commercial manner.

Yea I guess your right.

It would be possible to argue that you are doing so, even if you were to give away the images for free. You might be considered to be using predatory pricing tactics in an effort to drive competition out of business, if you do this a lot... but you are also digging your own grave by devaluing your product, if you give it away freely.

Not to mention that you won't be buying much gas or camera equipment with "free".

The contract between the school and someone you describe as "exclusive" tells me you know at least something about the arrangement. Perhaps you have checked out their website?

I didn't know about it until I was told earlier today. Event was yesterday. I had already uploaded all of the pictures last night.

It sounds as if you would hope to do more of this in the future (see bolded text above). One thing they most certainly can do is get you blocked from any future events. There may be other things they can do, depending upon the contract in place. You already are aware of their "exclusive commercial" arrangement.

How you handle this right now is sort a turning point, whether you will be sneaking in back doors to try to grab a few dollars away from a competitor or will be up front and professional and honest in your dealings with people. You are young, but you are building a "reputation" right now and how you handle these things can and will come back to haunt you or help you in the future.

What I would do, if I were you, is approach the contracted professional and see if you can work something out with them. If and when opportunity arises, you might want to bid on the contract with the school yourself.

So, you think it would be a good idea to contact the people who covered the event? What do you think they would say? I was going to juts wait and see if they would contact me about it, but it might work out better if I initiated contact. I want to keep a good reputation, but I do not want to take any of my photos down.

You obviously already know that you aren't "in the right" and hiding behind password protected galleries won't change that.

I wasn't ever considering hiding behind password protected galleries everything. I don't think that would work out well at all.

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[wyofizz]

Moral, ethical, dilema.
Continue to sell and you lose your integrity.
Good luck with your life.

[amfoto1]

Also here's the email I received. (Haven't responded yet)

Were you there taking photos for your personal use or professionally? If professionally, do you plan to sell the photos? If so, there is a problem. **** signed contract with professional photography company *** **** Photography to be the exclusive photographer of this event.

Thanks for your understanding,
************


Who sent the email? The school? The photographer?

Sounds like you have been contacted. And it sounds as if there is a valid, written contract in place regarding the work. I don't know this, but there might be some way for them to enforce the exclusivity, through the school which is a party to the contract and where you are a student.

You can display your stuff online, but not sell it. Unless you can work out some sort of deal with the photographer under contract. There will be future events, I bet. And they might be only to happy to have some additional help. It could be a good working relationship. Or not, depending upon how you handle this situation.

I hardly think one needs to give up their integrity to sell. A previous post makes it sound like it's one or the other. Just saying that doing so for a modest, immediate reward usually is a recipe for a quick, one time sell, but no future.

Sell with integrity, and it might become a successful career where people seek you out, rather than doing all they can to keep you out.

[unrlmth]

Who sent the email? The school? The photographer?

Sounds like you have been contacted. And it sounds as if there is a valid, written contract in place regarding the work. I don't know this, but there might be some way for them to enforce the exclusivity, through the school which is a party to the contract and where you are a student.

You can display your stuff online, but not sell it. Unless you can work out some sort of deal with the photographer under contract. There will be future events, I bet. And they might be only to happy to have some additional help. It could be a good working relationship. Or not, depending upon how you handle this situation.

I hardly think one needs to give up their integrity to sell. A previous post makes it sound like it's one or the other. Just saying that doing so for a modest, immediate reward usually is a recipe for a quick, one time sell, but no future.

Sell with integrity, and it might become a successful career where people seek you out, rather than doing all they can to keep you out.

Well for now I've turned off the printing of any of the photos.

[Karl Johnston]

Do they know your a minor? Seems a bit rash of an email even for directed to a business..one thing you never do is throw around the legal action bomb.

What exactly can they do if I continue to sell them? Can they make me take them off the internet? Can they stop me from giving them away?
May want to contact a lawyer in your area and ask

or you know, just read the thread..i really should get in the habit of doing that myself.

[FlyingPhotog]

If this even took place in public (no consideration was required for entry) and there were no overt notices prohibiting photography and no prohibitions on any ticket or other means of admission then I'd say you have no obligation to remove them.

However, if the event organizers have a written contract with a photographer and you are efforting to trump that relationship, then there's nothing to keep them from taking legal action.

How bad do you want to do what you're doing?

[unrlmth]

I'm think that I'm just going to leave the printing off on the album. I'll just be more diligent about finding out about stuff like this beforehand.

And its been good publicity for me and my website. Even if I'm not selling them I still got around 5000 hits today.

[ssnxp]

I'm think that I'm just going to leave the printing off on the album. I'll just be more diligent about finding out about stuff like this beforehand.

And its been good publicity for me and my website. Even if I'm not selling them I still got around 5000 hits today.

Sweet! Can't argue with that kind of free publicity. I would also stand my ground. I might not sell the pictures, but I would definitely not take them down, unless they could prove that they advertised the "photography is prohibited" deal.

[Tigershark]

Most exclusive contracts I write talk about commercial use as well as promotional use for websites, if the contract reads anything like mine legal action can be taken against X organizer which in turn could force legal action against you. It seems they requested you take down the images so they have given you fair notice. If you chose to skirt the line then be prepared to face the ramifications of your actions. The fact that they asked you to take them down suggests the contract they have is possible a very binding one with lots of legal language probably similar to most good event photographers and they are written to protect the photographer and hold the event organizer accountable. Good luck in your decision

[whitesell]

I think the official photographer has a reasonable claim against you since any pictures you sell are pictures they *didn't* sell - so you've taken profit from them. The reality is that if they decide to file suit against you. your costs to defend yourself will me many times more than any profit you made from the pictures, regardless of the outcome of the case.

Do you really want to defend yourself in a lawsuit over a few prints?

What goes around comes around - since you're in school, your working carrer is still ahead of you. Don't be surprised if sometime in the future you run in to someone who is now involved with this particular event? What if you are being considered for a job at this same photography company five years from now? What if you were being considered for the ofiicial photographer for this very event 10 years from now, but are passed over because you didn't respect the current photographer's official status this year?

Your actions today will be remembered by many for years to come.

[Alleh]

Sell away!!!!! They can only ask you not to but can't do anything if you do.

The only legal action that can be taken is the photographer with a contract can attempt to sue the school for them not protecting his right to exclusivity but he wont unless he doesn't want that job any more.

Don't let them scare you.

[Alleh]

Even if photography was prohibited it is their job to enforce it once the image is taken it belong to you and you can do what you want with it including selling prints.

[DDCSD]

Just to point out, technically Smugmug would be the ones that would need to be sued because they are the ones that are actually selling the photos.

Not that there is any basis of a lawsuit, just clarifying.

I still don't think the OP should sell his photos form the event, even though he legally could.

[JeffreyG]

Moral, ethical, dilema.
Continue to sell and you lose your integrity.
Good luck with your life.

Are you kidding? This kid went to an event and took photos of his friends. Turns out the event host had an exclusive contract with a professional photographer.

But that contract does not involve this kid. The contract theoretically obligated the event host to stop the kid (printing on the ticket, posting of notice, intervention at the event) at the time of the event.

They failed. This does not legally or ethically obligate the kid to do anything. The photographer can sue the event host and the event host can post the kids mugshot in their security office as 'undesireable' if they want. That is up to the kid.

But the kid only has practical considerations here, not moral ones.

I think the official photographer has a reasonable claim against you since any pictures you sell are pictures they *didn't* sell - so you've taken profit from them.

This is why internet legal advice is so useless. The kid has no contract with either the event or the photographer and cannot be sued by either.

[wyofizz]

The only legal action that can be taken is the photographer with a contract can attempt to sue the school for them not protecting his right to exclusivity but he wont unless he doesn't want that job any more.



I agree with the above portion of the post.
I would like to know exactly what type of photos the OP was taking.
If he was taking sports action shots he is ethically wrong selling them.
He said he didn't know there was a contract photog, is that his excuse for no business license, not submitting sales tax, opening up someone's head with a telephoto lens (no insurance).
If he was taking shots of fans in the stands, I as a contract photog could care less, but that's me.
Legal or not laws are made to protect us from scum and predators, legal is the lowest denomenator. Morals and ethics are at the top of the pyraimid of life.
I can't believe some of the advice I'm seeing here.
Typical advice nowadays, akin to, just because you can do it physically it must be Ok.
Goad the OP on and his next post will be him telling us they banned him from all sports events.

[amfoto1]

Sell away!!!!! They can only ask you not to but can't do anything if you do.

The only legal action that can be taken is the photographer with a contract can attempt to sue the school for them not protecting his right to exclusivity but he wont unless he doesn't want that job any more.

Don't let them scare you.


Interesting. Your advice tells us quite a bit about you as a business person, doesn't it?

Let's see, the OP attends the school. Best guess is that OP will want to attend events there in the future. Might want to take photos at those events, too.

Gee, even if the threats of lawsuits and whatnot are toothless in this case, and OP went ahead and sold a few prints... Doyathink the school might block OP from attending future events, or maybe just block them from bringing in a camera? Or maybe they'll just block everyone other than the contracted/official photog from bringing cameras into school events? Now that would make OP really popular at school!

[Gym Star Photos]

My $.02 says to talk to the contract photog. See if you can work something out with him. Something of the same sort happened to me (contracted photographer) and a parent from a team at an event. They realized I was the official photographer and approached me about working out a deal with them to see if they could sell the photos that they took. We came to an agreement and now I am going to hire them as a second shooter/assistant for some larger events.

Good luck and hopefully you will do the right thing.

[MJPhotos24]

Not sure why you'd want to immediately start stepping on toes and listen to bad advice to sell away maybe making a few dollars for long term negativity. Bad reputations get around just as much as good ones no matter how old you are. Just not a good idea in any sense.

I would question if they can do anything about it - even if legally you're allowed to sell because it's not breaking a law (but violating his contract) they can just make sure you never shoot another event there again when he's contracted or in general if they really want to - student or not.

The reporting process for this states exclusive is they report it to the state board and they take care of it . Photog might not be able to do anything about it but they can - they're legally responsible to do as much as they can to protect the photog under contract (depending what the contract says).

[Dennis_Hammer]

I think in a criminal sense there is nothing anyone would especially taking your age into account. Which is also why you get responses like 'what are they going to do turn off my internet'. If you have even the most minute thought of ever becoming a professional at anything understand business relationships, contracts, being able to work within the rules and commonly except ethical practices are essential to being successful. If they have an exclusive rights contract respect it, if not, well it may not happen this time or next time but someone will come after you and litigate your wallet empty.