Ethic or enough

[fotoQ]

Hi
A month ago I met a photographer and I asked him if I could go WITH him to see how was the work flow at the studio and in the field(weddings, sweet 16 etc) I told him that will helped him without paying (for free) that I only need to see how is the bussines because I want to start mine.He agreed
Well, a week ago he needed to shot a wedding at the same time of a baby shower, which was a gift to the mother to be... So he send me alone, I took ALL the photos. In that party a guy told me that he will buy me some of my photos because It was his place ( restaurant). I didnt give him my card because I was doing a favor to the photographer and these were his clients.
NOw the photographer is asking me for the photos not only for the mother to be(which is a gift ) but also to sell the pics to the owner of the place.... should I say no or 50/50
any advice please?

[lettershop]

If you say no or 50/50 then you should expect to be dropped from the "free" wedding he is letting you watch over his shoulder. He is doing you a favor and you should return the favor. My $0.02

[fotoQ]

Yes, that is a good advice
thanks.

[RDKirk]

Hi
A month ago I met a photographer and I asked him if I could go WITH him to see how was the work flow at the studio and in the field(weddings, sweet 16 etc) I told him that will helped him without paying (for free) that I only need to see how is the bussines because I want to start mine.He agreed
Well, a week ago he needed to shot a wedding at the same time of a baby shower, which was a gift to the mother to be... So he send me alone, I took ALL the photos. In that party a guy told me that he will buy me some of my photos because It was his place ( restaurant). I didnt give him my card because I was doing a favor to the photographer and these were his clients.
NOw the photographer is asking me for the photos not only for the mother to be(which is a gift ) but also to sell the pics to the owner of the place.... should I say no or 50/50
any advice please?

Legally, you own the copyright to the photographs, unless you're in Canada or Austrailia. The other photographer actually needs your permission to distribute them to anyone, even though he set up the appointment.

You put the restaurant owner in the position of having to go to the other photographer--you didn't give him a way to purchase prints through you. Okay, you didn't know any better at the time, nor did you have any kind of understanding already worked out between yourself and the other photographer.

At this point, even though the law would be on your side to do whatever you want--legally you could shut the other photographer out entirely--your best bet is probably to offer a 50-50 deal.

[RDKirk]

If you say no or 50/50 then you should expect to be dropped from the "free" wedding he is letting you watch over his shoulder. He is doing you a favor and you should return the favor. My $0.02

The deal was to shoot with the other photographer to learn the wedding workflow...that didn't happen. He shot the baby shower all alone, which was a one-way favor to the other photographer.

[fotoQ]

If you were the pro photographer who sent me to take the shots and I sell the photos to the guy wouldnt you see that as a lack of respect or unethical and will drop me off?
I didnt gave the clients my card because they were his clients , I even ask him and He said "give mine" so I did it.I didnt want to look unreliable

[RDKirk]

If you were the pro photographer who sent me to take the shots and I sell the photos to the guy wouldnt you see that as a lack of respect or unethical and will drop me off?
I didnt gave the clients my card because they were his clients , I even ask him and He said "give mine" so I did it.I didnt want to look unreliable

Of course, ultimately you can and will do whatever you want.

But the restaurant owner was not one of his clients--that was a client you gained by the demonstration of your own efforts.

The real problems here include not having a clear agreement between you that delinated your acual roles and the quid pro quo. Working as an unpaid assisstant for the wedding provided a quid pro quo--you did the sherpa work for him and got to see how to work a wedding. That's one deal.

But sending you to do a job that neither paid you nor provided the guidance you expected was outside the pale of the verbal agreement you had made. What was the deal for this additional gig? That you do all the work, get no guidance, get no pay, get no client opportunity? What were you supposed to get out of it? The other photographer owes you something for that gig, unless you're willing to just say, "Aw shucks."

[Alleh]

No agreement no photos. Unfortunately you screwed yourself. As a professional he must have felt you were good enough to send alone to one of his jobs which merits payment.

Tell him you will allow him to give the mother the images as a gift but you want payment for the images being delivered to the restaurant. Just have to find a way to prevent him from selling them himself to the restaurant, as going back and dealing with the mess after he sells images unlawfully to the restaurant will be a pain in the a$$

Unless you act like a bi#!h and just hand him all the photos you can assume your relationship with him is over.

Good learning experiences though.

[jonwhite]

But the restaurant owner was not one of his clients--that was a client you gained by the demonstration of your own efforts.


Sorry but thats wrong.

If you employ someone to do a job acting as a member of your company whether for pay or as a trade for experience as in this case then whilst they are shooting that job they are not there to solicit themselves to others, they are there as a representative of your company.

When I have someone shooting for me as a second shooter they are not allowed to hand out their own business cards, or wear their own company branded clothes, they are to all intents and purposes a member of my company on the day they are shooting for me.

Works just the same when I go and shoot for someone else as a second shooter, I wear plain clothes and don't hand out my own cards or even mention my own business.

The trade off or pay that the hired shooter gets for shooting the gig for the pro in this case is a separate issue and shouldn't effect how they conduct themselves when working for the pro...... the recompense should have been sorted out before hand though.

[tim]

What Jon said x2. Don't think about the quick buck, think about the long game.

[Dennis_Hammer]

You back out on your 'free' offer and not only will he have nothing to do with you but every other photographer he can talk to won't either. But this gives you an oppurtunity to discuss the situation and come to an agreement for 'next time' something like this comes up.

[Steave]

You back out on your 'free' offer and not only will he have nothing to do with you but every other photographer he can talk to won't either. But this gives you an oppurtunity to discuss the situation and come to an agreement for 'next time' something like this comes up.

I agree 100%. IMO the best solution would be to just bite the bullet this time and, like Dennis said, work something out for next time in a professional manner. If he sends you out alone then it's highly probable that he is happy with your work. After all, it's his name on the line, not yours.

[Karl Johnston]

Sorry but thats wrong.

If you employ someone to do a job acting as a member of your company whether for pay or as a trade for experience as in this case then whilst they are shooting that job they are not there to solicit themselves to others, they are there as a representative of your company.
I think you read it wrong, he wasn't employed. You would be right if he was employed, but he wasn't even on contract from what I gathered.


A month ago I met a photographer and I asked him if I could go WITH him to see how was the work flow at the studio and in the field(weddings, sweet 16 etc) I told him that will helped him without paying (for free) that I only need to see how is the bussines because I want to start mine.
In my opinion you are completely in the right to do what you want with your photos, regardless of your aquaintances..he should not be asking for a 50 50 cut, IMO that would be bad business on his part.

Though I'm not American I do believe that your copyright is yours at the time of the shutter click..your property, you do what you want with it.
Basically you are accompanying a friend, or an acquaintance, to the shoot..unless there's exclusivity between him and his client to be the only photographer they deal with..then whatever.

Verbal agreements are pretty lackluster, if you were to have signed something that put you under his business..he may have a point. Though I have a feeling that didn't happen.

I dunno what you should do, that's up to you, but you shouldn't feel indebted to this guy at all.

Not really a question of ethics, if you keep on doing favors for people ...you get taken advantage of (reasonably speaking). Sounds like he's trying to take advantage of you by asking for a 50 50 split on an image he has no legal ownership of...though you don't really go into detail about what your arrangements are with him, that said. I'd tell him to go #%(! himself if he expected to make a profit from my work.

Though it's like this: You accompany a buddy to the gas station and buy a lottery ticket, you win the lottery..buddy says if it weren't for him you wouldn't have gone there in the first place and now he was a million dollars. What do you do? Legally, buddy is out of luck...what you do, well thats up to you

[asysin2leads]

If you employ someone to do a job acting as a member of your company whether for pay or as a trade for experience as in this case then whilst they are shooting that job they are not there to solicit themselves to others, they are there as a representative of your company.

If he has a signed Work for Hire agreement, then the copyrights are the property of the one doing the hiring, not the shooter. However, it doesn't seem that an official WFH agreement was in place. Therefore, the copyrights are retained by the photographer. IMHO, if you cave in on this one, he's going to expect it every time. I wouldn't just snowball him into the situation. I would sit down and discuss your concerns. If he is truly a "professional," he will understand your argument.

[asysin2leads]

When I have someone shooting for me as a second shooter they are not allowed to hand out their own business cards, or wear their own company branded clothes, they are to all intents and purposes a member of my company on the day they are shooting for me.

Works just the same when I go and shoot for someone else as a second shooter, I wear plain clothes and don't hand out my own cards or even mention my own business.

Agree 100%. If I bring in a second shooter, then they are given a shirt w/ my logo and web addy on it. Then again, I only use one of about 4 guys, so they know they're shooting for me and respect that. I would never solicit my business while shooting for another company.

[RDKirk]

If he sends you out alone then it's highly probable that he is happy with your work. After all, it's his name on the line, not yours.

The OP originally agreed to work in exchange for mentoring.

My point is that the solo gig was not in any way part of the original agreement. If the photographer were truly professional an ethical, she should have offered to pay for that solo gig. The OP didn't get what he agreed upon, he merely did work for which he received zero compensation--no money and no mentoring.

Obviously the OP was not comfortable with that, or he wouldn't even have posted here.

[Steave]

The OP originally agreed to work in exchange for mentoring.

My point is that the solo gig was not in any way part of the original agreement. If the photographer were truly professional an ethical, she should have offered to pay for that solo gig. The OP didn't get what he agreed upon, he merely did work for which he received zero compensation--no money and no mentoring.

Obviously the OP was not comfortable with that, or he wouldn't even have posted here.

Absolutely, I agree with all the points you made above, but IMO the best solution would be to just ask the mentor about compensation. If he doesn't sound interested, try to work out a deal then and there for the next solo shoot the op goes on. If that wont work out either, the op still has the rights to those shots he took and can decide where to go from there.