The COST of shooting a wedding.

[nicodemusdog]

I have a few friends that are starting photographers and are charging way to small of an amount to shoot weddings IMHO. I understand the desire to get some portfolio work, experience, etc....

And then there are the craigslist hounds... 'need a photographer but can't pay you... etc.'

I just advertising myself as an inexpensive '2nd shooter' for weddings. As I dont want to take the lead just yet. But I was doing some math, can more experienced photographers help me out here.

The COST of shooting a wedding. We will use the last wedding I was a 2nd camera for. I'm not even talking about the initial investment of equipment.

I drove 90 miles (round trip) took probably 500-600 photos with a Canon 5DMII. Used a flash and burned through two sets of batteries (note I DO have rechargables).

Shutter wear/tear = $10.80 - $16.20 (see note below for math)
Insurance = $10 (assuming $600/yr and one wedding a week)
90miles = $8-10 in fuel
90miles = $n
Batteries = $0 or $10 if non-recharble.

COST to me to help out = 36-40$

Shutter notes: Canon 5DMII is rated at 100k-150k of shutter clicks. The body cost around $2,700 to replace. So if I shot 600 picts on the low end that was $10.80 and on the high end $16.20
n(maintence... example gov't charges waht $.50 for wear and tear)

Is this pretty accurate? Am I missing anything?

Also, keep in mind I am NOT counting cost of equipment!

[golfecho]

Cost of shutter clicks is interesting. I suspect that if you were to depreciate your camera, it would completely depreciate faster than you could get 150,000 shutter activations. Also, the cost of a $2700 camera body is not completely lost when you "wear out" the shutter, although I wouldn't know if a replacement (zero-time) new shutter would exceed the value of the body when it does fail.

I have no idea if my comments would change significantly your overall cost . . . just a couple of immediate thoughts on your calculations . . .

[FlyingPhotog]

What about your time? Labor has a value as well.

And, markup on all of the above.

I'll grant you that you're trying to get established and find a niche but working for nothing but "at cost" is a long-term losing proposition. ;)

[jacuff]

You left out one of the most valuable things... YOUR TIME.

[snails]

The shutter is only one of many parts on your camera that may break. You're calculating your replacement period of the device on the mean time between failure of one part. This may be like calculating the expense of a car based on how long the alternator is supposed to last. Common practice is to use an average repairs per time period (including lenses, flashes, and camera batteries), divide that by average events per time period and come up with an average repair cost per event. (Depreciation is another subject, and is a tax write off.)

The US Government credits about $0.55 per mile (which includes both fuel and maintenance). 90 miles ~$50.

Don't forget the "little" things either. If you purchased a set of clothes particularly for shooting the event that is also part of the cost. Camera bags and cases are also part of the cost equation. Parking fees (a friend of mine was married in a public park that required a $5 parking permit) are also included. Any other incidental purchases also add up.

And, of course, like flying and jacuff said, your time.

[mikekelley]

lol @ shutter click wear and tear

why don't we add exposing our camera to loud noises while we're at it

we can also add

dust collecting on the sensor and a cleaning every few months
erosion on the buttons from your fingers touching them

dont forget the cost of rechargeable batteries by the kwh!

[FlyingPhotog]

lol @ shutter click wear and tear

why don't we add exposing our camera to loud noises while we're at it

we can also add

dust collecting on the sensor and a cleaning every few months
erosion on the buttons from your fingers touching them

dont forget the cost of rechargeable batteries by the kwh!

You can be damn sure I'm deducting maintenance expenses...

[dreamcatcher23]

The only way to figure your expenses accurately is to do it as a business for a few years and then look at your accounts. You will probably spend more on everything than you expect, from sellotape to taxes, clothing to fuses... there's tons of stuff you don't think of right away.

[nicodemusdog]

Sorry, yes, of course time. I am talking looking for numbers that are not 'bias'
Example, im a worthless photographer and my time is worth two dog biscuits and a happy meal while Mike Kelly is a fine artist who can charge 100$ an hour.

If we have the same equipment, there is some SIGNIFICANT wear and tear that can be calculated that applies to both of us.

Mileage = mileage.
$ per click = $ per click.

Perhaps I am wrong but I just heard the life expectancy of the 5DMII was 100k-150k which IMHO seems a tad low. Or maybe I know too many happy triggered photographers that take 500+ photos on a family shoot.

[airfrogusmc]

What about your time? Labor has a value as well.

And, markup on all of the above.

I'll grant you that you're trying to get established and find a niche but working for nothing but "at cost" is a long-term losing proposition. ;)

In fact once you've established a price base it is VERY difficult to move up from it.

[tim]

Add in time and equipment. It's very labour intensive.

[Alleh]

I wouldn't worry to much about your current equipment value and depreciation. You bought it as a hobby item and now want to turn it into a business so it's really not that important. What is important is valuing the equipment your going to need to buy in the future.

If you start out charging a low few and you don't make very much money then when the times comes and you need to upgrade that Mark II (estimate 1.5 years... The Mark II is already 1 year old and newer better technologies will be available soon enough) you are going to be looking at some pretty hard purchases.

Look at it like this. Even if your only goal was to pay for new equipment your first year and you had a semi decent list of gear to buy...

New body $2500-5000
70-200 2.8 $1500
85 1.2 $1650
iMac $2400 (gonna need a fast computer to edit your photos)
backup storage drives $400
memory cards $200
misc other stuff $500-2000

So now just for a small amount of equipment upgrades your looking at needing to earn between $9,150-$13,150 not taking into account website,insurance etc etc other expenses.

So now to pay for that gear you will need to shoot a minimum of 10-13 weddings at $1000 each or 20-26 at $500 or whatever you decide in your first 1.5 years in business. Remember the lower your price the more time and expenses you will incur per dollar earned.

[bwolford]

I have a few friends that are starting photographers and are charging way to small of an amount to shoot weddings IMHO. I understand the desire to get some portfolio work, experience, etc....

And then there are the craigslist hounds... 'need a photographer but can't pay you... etc.'

I just advertising myself as an inexpensive '2nd shooter' for weddings. As I dont want to take the lead just yet. But I was doing some math, can more experienced photographers help me out here.

The COST of shooting a wedding. We will use the last wedding I was a 2nd camera for. I'm not even talking about the initial investment of equipment.

I drove 90 miles (round trip) took probably 500-600 photos with a Canon 5DMII. Used a flash and burned through two sets of batteries (note I DO have rechargables).

Shutter wear/tear = $10.80 - $16.20 (see note below for math)
Insurance = $10 (assuming $600/yr and one wedding a week)
90miles = $8-10 in fuel
90miles = $n
Batteries = $0 or $10 if non-recharble.

COST to me to help out = 36-40$

Shutter notes: Canon 5DMII is rated at 100k-150k of shutter clicks. The body cost around $2,700 to replace. So if I shot 600 picts on the low end that was $10.80 and on the high end $16.20
n(maintence... example gov't charges waht $.50 for wear and tear)

Is this pretty accurate? Am I missing anything?

Also, keep in mind I am NOT counting cost of equipment!

Google the standard mileage dedcuction. $0.55 / mile or $49.50...

[FlyingPhotog]

Just so the OP is aware...

You can take the mileage allowance or you can do a break down of all your vehicle related expenses (and they better be correct and accurate) but you can not do both.

[turtlec]

The costs associated are one of the reasons why so many pros are finding things tough at the moment, and also the fact that there are so many people out there who just go and buy a decent SLR and think that they can start up in business.

In factoring in costs (even asa a semi-pro) it is important to take ALL the costs.

Overheads: Tax, insurance, running costs, travel, equipment, food etc.
Time: You MUST include a cost for your actual time otherwise it degrades your worth and people start to expect something for nothing.
When working out time dont forget to work out ALL the time. Pre Wedding, travel, Actual Coverage and ALL post production work and meetings etc.

When you start to do all of that you will soon find out that the costs can mount up.

I was once told that it is a BIG MISTAKE to be too cheap because it is very difficult to start pushing up prices if you get a reputation at the lower end of the market. It is easier to lower prices slightly than to increase them.

[cdifoto]

Materials-wise it's very inexpensive to shoot a wedding. Skill and the labor to put skill into action is where the money really goes. I can spend a good week on a wedding between culling, processing, and retouching (sometimes I need to put several hours into a single image). Of course there's also the taxes and insurance and such that suck the bank account dry. Add an office/studio rental or mortgage if you have one of those. Assistant salaries and benefits if applicable, etc.

Not to mention the day itself is long, extremely physical, and I don't have OSHA protecting me from myself. :lol:

In other words, you charge what you charge because you're good at it and want to be rewarded for a job well done.

[NickJushchyshyn]

So "time" might sound rather ambiguous ... but you can break that down in a very similar way as you did for your camera.

Ultimately, there is a monetary cost of "upkeep" for you as human, capable of active, quality, creative work, in high-pressure environments, week after week after week...
nourishment, exercise, housing, a working space with adequate equipment and supplies, trash removal services, utilities for lighting/heat/ac/water supply, adequate clothing, education, health services (health insurance and deductibles for health care), and psychological stability maintenance (i.e. entertainment). I'm sure that I'm missing a number of things here (especially if you as a human are supporting a family) ... but the point is that these costs totaled over the year for "equipment upkeep" of the "equipment" that is actively operating the camera is no less part of the cost of the shoot than the shutter inside the camera, or the vehicle that got you there.

[nicodemusdog]

In factoring in costs (even asa a semi-pro) it is important to take ALL the costs.

So. I’m the original poster. Perhaps I should have made it clear.

I am a SECOND shooter :D Not sure how the rest of the world does this, but I work for $X a day (say 4-6hrs) dump my chip onto the main photographer (normally a friend)'s laptop and go home.

This topic was originally suppose to be for part-timers, second shooters, or people just starting out to bring up costs you MIGHT not have thought about. I think everyone factors in time/equipment (maybe not appropriately).

Either way I love how this thread has developed. Went a little more 'full time pro' than originally thought, but hey :) good info!

[NickJushchyshyn]

This topic was originally suppose to be for part-timers, second shooters, or people just starting out to bring up costs you MIGHT not have thought about. I think everyone factors in time/equipment (maybe not appropriately).

"Second Shooter" vs "Primary" really doesn't have impact on the "cost" of showing up and shooting a wedding for X hours.

"Part-timer" does change the game a bit, but only in that you can factor in the idea that (assuming you work 5 weekdays and take one day per week off) the wedding "human costs" are about 1/6 of the total for the year. (note that we haven't factored in any vacation time to relax for once and recharge)

Keep in mind that it doesn't matter if you have income during the weekdays. This income does NOT change the "cost". It's just that you can spread the cost over multiple working days per week rather than attribute the costs solely to weekly wedding work.

[Hogloff]

The costs associated are one of the reasons why so many pros are finding things tough at the moment, and also the fact that there are so many people out there who just go and buy a decent SLR and think that they can start up in business.

In factoring in costs (even asa a semi-pro) it is important to take ALL the costs.

Overheads: Tax, insurance, running costs, travel, equipment, food etc.
Time: You MUST include a cost for your actual time otherwise it degrades your worth and people start to expect something for nothing.
When working out time dont forget to work out ALL the time. Pre Wedding, travel, Actual Coverage and ALL post production work and meetings etc.

When you start to do all of that you will soon find out that the costs can mount up.

I was once told that it is a BIG MISTAKE to be too cheap because it is very difficult to start pushing up prices if you get a reputation at the lower end of the market. It is easier to lower prices slightly than to increase them.

On the other hand, if you are to charge a premium price, you better deliver a premium product. Just because an established professional who does deliver a premium product charges $3000 for a wedding does not mean everyone has to charge that. You better be sure of your abilities before you go and set your prices to what your competition is using.

[golfecho]

On the other hand, if you are to charge a premium price, you better deliver a premium product. Just because an established professional who does deliver a premium product charges $3000 for a wedding does not mean everyone has to charge that. You better be sure of your abilities before you go and set your prices to what your competition is using.

+1 to that!

[tomd]

what about computer, software, internet, etc.
Computers get upgraded every few years, software at least that often.

[tim]

(sometimes I need to put several hours into a single image).

I've never, ever had to spend anything like that amount of time editing an image, i'd have discarded it already if it was that bad. If it was necessary i'd outsource it, I have a retouching place that charges flat fees.

On the other hand, if you are to charge a premium price, you better deliver a premium product. Just because an established professional who does deliver a premium product charges $3000 for a wedding does not mean everyone has to charge that. You better be sure of your abilities before you go and set your prices to what your competition is using.

$3K isn't premium, $3K is mainstream.

[cdifoto]

I've never, ever had to spend anything like that amount of time editing an image, i'd have discarded it already if it was that bad. If it was necessary i'd outsource it, I have a retouching place that charges flat fees.
I cringe at the idea of outsourcing my post work. I don't spend that kind of time on a regular basis, but it does happen and I have to consider it as part of my costs.

$3K is premium where I am.

[tim]

I cringe at the idea of outsourcing my post work.

My assistant does a lot of my simpler work. The outsourcing I do is for photoshop work on individual images. If I can pay $2.50 or $5 or $10 for each of half a dozen image edits I need done I can save myself a few hours at least, it's totally worth it for me. The place I use offers free re-do's if they don't do it to your satisfaction. Give their free trial a go. I gain nothing by recommending them btw :)

http://www.retouchup.com/

[cdifoto]

Retouching I can do and it doesn't take time at all. Do they fix a total f-up for 10 bucks though? :D

[tim]

Their $5 service does a better job than I can do, usually overnight, their $10 service is "the works". Time is valuable to me, I can earn more money doing other things I know how to do than retouching.

[cdifoto]

If 10 bucks is basically salvaging a pic AND they do a good job, then I'm going to try that. Sometimes I screw up a shot but need to keep it. That's when I run into trouble. A recent example is flare covering faces in a group shot. I never saw it on the LCD and it's only in 3 out of 15 formals...which tells me I raised my lens just a wee bit too high for those 3 and caught the sun the wrong way.

[tim]

That's the sort of thing they'd do. I've had them remove chimneys that made a bride look like she was wearing a witches hat, rotate flowers that'd fallen down, remove flash shine from a window, remove shine from foreheads, remove signs from behind peoples heads (working with hair's difficult), cut people out of backgrounds, etc. Of the 40 or so retouches i've had them redo maybe four, which is pretty good given the price. The re-do's always got it right :)

We're not off topic btw... we're just redefining the topic ;)

[cdifoto]

Nice. That's the kind of stuff that takes me forever. LOL.

4 hours for me must be 4 minutes for them. :D

[tim]

I suspect they'd be a little faster than us!

[cdifoto]

Indeed. I'm sure it's only because I don't have a Wacom. It's the gear, you know. :D :p

[tim]

I tried a tablet once, didn't like it at all. Probably takes some time to get used to it though.

[Zansho]

I LOVE my wacom. If it could cook, I'd marry it.

[tim]

I LOVE my wacom. If it could cook, I'd marry it.

I'd not like to see the consummation.

[Zansho]

I do grant you that it does take a bit of a learning curve to use. But after I got how the pen and tablet interact, it was pretty much the wacom or nothing. I even sold the mouse it came with.

Best part? My wife refuses to use my computer because she can't use the pen and tablet - she wants a mouse :D. It's a good deterrent for keeping er.. um.. unwanted hands from touching your computer.

[turtlec]

On the other hand, if you are to charge a premium price, you better deliver a premium product. Just because an established professional who does deliver a premium product charges $3000 for a wedding does not mean everyone has to charge that. You better be sure of your abilities before you go and set your prices to what your competition is using.


I am not talking about the differnece between a standard product and a premium product and I agree that your prices should match your abilities.
What I am trying (not very well) to say is that even when starting out you still have similar overheads and should be charging a reasonable rate.

If your abilities are not good enough then you should spend time as an assistant or 2nd shooter. Nor would i advocate blindly trying to follow what the competition is charging..you have to be competitive but that can be achieved by other things rather than JUST price.

My Mian point is that if the competition is charging $1500 and you start up in business and charge just $5000 in order to generate more work.You will soon find that you are working very hard and not making much. In addition you will have forged a reputation for being at the low end of the market and will find it VERY hard to get out of that position.

If you feel you must be cheaper than the opposition then just be a bit cheaper but not a lot. I have actually lost jobs in the past because I was too cheap (and thefore perceived as not gooe enough)

[cdifoto]

I don't think it's hard to get out of the low price rut. Just look at your clients and tell them "I was cheap and worth what I was charging then. I'm not so cheap anymore and I'm worth what I'm charging now." If they agree, they'll hire you. If they disagree, they won't. You're not going to sign every person you try to get anyway so there's no sense in worrying about losing some.

[EmmaRose]

I'd count the cost to rent your exact equipment for a day, and of course your time spent at the wedding and processing is valuable.

[nicodemusdog]

I vote for pen/tablets! If you just use lightroom and dont do much other post processing... meh, but if you do a lot of post... and use PS... its a must :).

Curious, what is a fair rate for 2nd shooter that has their own equipment? (*hope this doesn't set a different tone in this thread, i've enjoyed it so far :).
s

[Zansho]

I usually pay my second shooter about $400.00/wedding - shooting about 6 hours or so.