Modern London bobby

[wintoid]

I spent another lunchbreak wandering the south bank of the Thames, and came across two police officers, one of whom was armed. I was genuinely surprised as I did not expect to find guns on open display in a tourist area, so I talked to the officer about it, and in the process of our conversation he kindly agreed to let me take his picture. The reason for carrying the weapons is the increased risk of terrorism in the area. A friend tells me that what he is carrying is actually a machine gun, which definitely makes me nervous in such a densely populated tourist area.

[lomond]

A nice candid but a sad reflection of life today in Britain.

I don't know much about guns but I would hope it's set on semi-automatic.

[djonto]

He let you shoot him - good job he didn't want to shoot you in return!;)

[Andy_T]

Very nice shot ... he sure looks cool!

It's a perspective thing, I think ... last time I was in Manila (Phillipines), it bothered me more that the (private) security guard outside the discotheque was carrying something that looked more deadly than this ... although he didn't look like he was capable of writing his name :rolleyes:

... Many discotheques we went to had someone like that in front, some with shotguns instead...

Best regards,
Andy

[Meerkat17]

Nice image but I feel Cameron says it all!

<QUOTE>a sad reflection of life today in Britain</QUOTE>

Regards
David

[Rob612]

Oh well... we all know that traditionally London Bobbies have been unarmed. I never lived in London so I have no clue about the security levels over there but I can tell you that I feel much safer in seeing any LEO heavily armed unless unarmed.

Also, for what I am reading, the very strict laws about handguns in the UK did not really solved the problem of armed violence (and thats makes sense, unarming the law abiding citizens doesn't means that the BGs will follow the rules...) so not a big surprise that now they are armed and with a vest.

And yes, he is carrying what is seems to be a mid sized MG (its so contrasty that I cannot see the details so I do not recognize it).

Despite all the gun considerations, I really like the pic.

[jabtas]

See this thread and seriously think about what your next pic in London will include


http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=78425

EDIT -

BTW nice pic

[Ballen Photo]

And yes, he is carrying what is seems to be a mid sized MG (its so contrasty that I cannot see the details so I do not recognize it).

At a GLANCE? It looks like an H & K MP5 which is capable of select fire.
Interesting photo wintoid, Thanks for sharing.;)
-Bruce

[mrclark321]

Not only Britain, you see cops walking around with machine guns in many countrys.

Dan

A nice candid but a sad reflection of life today in Britain.

I don't know much about guns but I would hope it's set on semi-automatic.

[lomond]

I have no idea what an H&K MP5 is.
I do know that I don't like the idea of our Police force having to carry these weapons.
I live near Prestwick and fortunately I will be on holiday when the G8 heads of state arrive in July.

Most people in Scotland, and indeed the whole of the UK, just don't see the police walking around with guns.
I know our American cousins will find this hard to believe but it scares me to see police officers with guns.
It's a reflection on our society and it worries me.

[Skip Souza]

Most people in Scotland, and indeed the whole of the UK, just don't see the police walking around with guns.
I know our American cousins will find this hard to believe but it scares me to see police officers with guns.
It's a reflection on our society and it worries me.

I am a retired American cop, just to give my comments perspective.
Simon, too bad that so much shadow was cast on the officer's face but is is a good capture under the circumstances.
Cameron is right. It is not that the cops are armed it is that the cops need to be armed that is unsettling.
Yes American cops are almost always armed, I am still, but I would find it disconcerting for our cops to be routinely and casually displaying assault rifles and other such advanced weapons.
'Tis a sad photographic comment on society indeed.

[wintoid]

Thanks all for your comments, and glad the photo stimulated some discussion. As I shoot these things on my lunchbreaks, the sun is always high in the sky, and often bright, which isn't great for photos. I was actually genuinely nervous talking to the guy, and especially because of some of those things written in Amateur Photographer recently. As a result, I didn't think about the shot very much, but simply grabbed it quickly. I even forgot to put the hood on the lens :D (Tamron 28-75 @28mm f/5.6 if you're interested).

A couple of thoughts from me...

In general our police are unarmed, and we do have a lower rate of gun crime than some other countries. Having said that, I believe gun crime in the UK is rising sharply. But from what this guy said, his carrying of the machine gun was not related to gun crime, but to potential terrorist threats.

I wouldn't be so shaken if it was a rifle. I could understand the reasoning. Pick off a terrorist from a distance etc etc. But a machine gun is for close range isn't it? At long range it's inaccurate, and sprays, right? So in densely packed crowds there would be a lot of casualties, surely.

[Skip Souza]

Simon
What your bobby is carrying is indeed a rifle. It is a shoulder fired weapon. In this case it is capable of a very rapid rate of fire. You shoot it much like you shoot your camera. In order to be effective with it you must shoot it accurately, not just spray it around like a garden hose. Any responsible agency will only supply such weapons to highly trained men. The good guys care about what they hit, the bad guys don't.
Please don't think ill of the man just because he is equipped with the best tool available for the job. That would be akin to thinking ill of the photographer that is using a 20D versus your film camera.

[wintoid]

Oh I don't think ill of him at all, he was very pleasant. I believe our police are extremely well trained, and he spoke very firmly with confidence, whilst taking time to explicitly tell me that it was nothing to be worried about. Do you think a machine gun is the best tool for the job though? I have absolutely zero knowledge of guns, so I wouldn't know.

[Skip Souza]

Oh I don't think ill of him at all, he was very pleasant. I believe our police are extremely well trained, and he spoke very firmly with confidence, whilst taking time to explicitly tell me that it was nothing to be worried about. Do you think a machine gun is the best tool for the job though? I have absolutely zero knowledge of guns, so I wouldn't know.
Simon, it is not a 'machine gun' in the classic sense. It is capable of selecting between full or semi automatic fire and I believe auto burst (a limited number of full auto shots). A weapon like the one he is carrying is the most effective weapon for what he is doing. It is best used in middle to close quarters against bad guys with similar weapons. You sure do not want the good guys out gunned by the bad guys.
My guess is that there are also snipers somewhere you don't see them that can surgically reach out and touch someone. They would be using a more classical type of rifle.

[Mobius]

It's an heckler and koch (h+k) MP5. It's capable of (depending on the trigger group), three round burst, full auto, and semi-automatic fire. At short distances, it's extremely accurate and the cops chances of killing an innocent civilian are relatively low.

Great picture, although i'm not really a fan of black and white and was wondering if you have a color version.

EDIT: the person above me pretty much covered it.

[Rob612]

In general our police are unarmed, and we do have a lower rate of gun crime than some other countries. Having said that, I believe gun crime in the UK is rising sharply. But from what this guy said, his carrying of the machine gun was not related to gun crime, but to potential terrorist threats.

I wouldn't be so shaken if it was a rifle. I could understand the reasoning. Pick off a terrorist from a distance etc etc. But a machine gun is for close range isn't it? At long range it's inaccurate, and sprays, right? So in densely packed crowds there would be a lot of casualties, surely.

Some considerations, not with the intent of hijacking the thread but to have some constructive discussion.

Moral considerations:

To be honest, I do believe that in general, worldwide, violent crimes are increasing for unknown reasons (as everybody else, I can guess, but it does not make too much sense to me).

I am an armed citizen, and I almost always carry a gun with me anywhere unless explicitly prohibited (it's usually a 9mm Glock 26 but in particular conditions I carry something bigger - depending upon what I am dressing but usually a .45 Kimber - as a primary and the 26 as a BUG). I have a permit to do so and honestly I feel much more secure in this way, even if our laws in terms of self defense really stink. Don't call me paranoid :D Anyone that lives in a big city knows that it CAN be dangerous. And as some of my American friends say, I'd rather prefer to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

This, of course does NOT means that I am a violent, crazy guy that can't wait to shoot somebody. As everybody that carries daily knows very well, retreat is always the best option and that's what I usually do if I encounter problems. Also, as it has happened twice, if its just a matter of money with no real life danger involved, I just let them go with my "robbery wallet" that only holds a few Euros and no important documents. In about 15 years of carrying, I had to draw only once because I got caught in the middle of a gang. Thank God the big hole of the Kimber solved the problem without need to shoot and gave me the chance to retreat safely. Overall, I can say that in 15 years I really needed it only once. But as someone said, "You never need a gun until you need a gun, and when you do, you need it more than anything else in the world."

This for what concerns my personal position about guns. They are a tool, neither evil or good. They do not have a brain, they do not think and act on their own, they are only a nice piece of engineering (well, at least some of them :D) It's the person that is behind them that makes it good or bad.

I am told - and basically most of the statistics that are published around support this - that the problem in UK is partially due to the 1997 (I think) handgun ban for law abiding citizens. This, as logical, if makes a little harder (but just a little, the BGs always know where to "shop") to obtain an illegal firearm, OTOH has the effect of leave the good citizen completely unarmed and unable to self defense.

BTW the problem is not only in the UK, but almost everywhere, I am taking the UK
as an example for the simple reason that we are talking of London Bobbies here, and that UK has been the first - and I hope the last - EU country that issued a similar law.

Its a matter of fact that (at least reading the numbers) that potentially armed victims are less prone to have problems in that sense, with some exceptions even - as usual, reading the # since I live in a different country - in the US where guns are pretty common. In general, big cities around the world can be very dangerous in certain areas, no matter what.

Technical considerations

As far as the "new style" Bobby, I have some technical considerations about the MP5 he's carrying (thanks to who identified it, I could not get trough, we are used to see either the SD or the Kurz around here but it very rare to see the standard).

Personally, I prefer these guys to be armed with a SMG than a rifle for basic ballistic considerations. A 9mm pistol round (thats what MP5s and almost all the common SMGs use) has much less power and penetration capabilities than a 5.56 assault rifle round, or something even bigger like a 7.62 or a .300 WM. In urban conditions, its much much better to have a less powerful ammo than something that comes out at about 1000 mt/sec. 9mm is quite less prone to pass over the target and bounce uncontrolled - thus being really dangerous for everybody in the area. Overall, its a police operation, not a war.

Other point in favor of an SMG is the fact that is much shorter and easier to carry and get ready if the need arise.

As someone pointed out, in very critical conditions, these guys at least here in Italy are supported by several snipers (here armed usually with Accuracy International rifles) usually coupled with a spotter (ours carry an M4 assault rifle).

And yes, SMGs usually have three fire options, single, burst (usually 3 rounds) and full auto (it keeps going until you release the trigger or got the mag empty). You need a good level of training to use SMGs efficiently, in particular if you are shooting in full auto the recoil can really have you spraying everywhere. But it can be handled very well with proper experience and training.


I just realized that I wen a little long on this, so I'll stop here, but there is a lot more to say :D I dont intend to annoy too much.

[wintoid]

Thanks both, that's actually reassuring. The sniper thing doesn't worry me too much, believe it or not. Sounds like the right tool for the right job. Glad to know that this weapon isn't a fully fledged mowing-down machine gun.

Here's the colour version, completely unprocessed apart from a crop to remove the other police officer's foot.

[Rob612]

Here's the colour version, completely unprocessed apart from a crop to remove the other police officer's foot.

Where ???

[wintoid]

Sorry oops, did it again :D

[Skip Souza]

I like the color on better, it makes your copper more human, and remember that he is a s human as you are.
I can see that you were fighting savage sunlight (in London?).
Sleep well tonight my friend, knowing that some of these guys are not sleeping at all.

[tim]

I like the color photo way better.

[Big_B]

I too have noticed the increased numbers of armed police, particularly along the south bank. It seems to me that they have increased significantly since christmas.

[Dave_G]

Cool shot.

I was at Gatwick Airport earlier in the month and there were armed police all over the place. 2 of them were the foxiest women I have ever seen in uniform - I was about to ask for a photo but my flight was called. Arse.

:D

[Michaelmjc]

Nice shot, I dont think a cop would ever let me take his picture here. They're all grumpy old men ;)

[Matatazela]

Nice pic. Please clear up the nomenclature regarding "machine guns", as it really gives a bad impression. The order (from smallest to biggest) is handgun (Canon G3), machine pistol (EOS 350D), submachine gun (EOS 20D), carbine (EOS 10D), assault rifle (EOS 1Ds Mk II), squad automatic weapon (EOS 1D Mk II, machine gun (EOS 1Ds).

The machine gun is generally not portable and denotes great random destruction when fired (and is generally true). The submachine gun is very quick into action, selective and relatively low powered. Altogether, I would say that he is well equipped and looks like he takes his job seriously... which is just as well!

[Jackal]

Simon
What your bobby is carrying is indeed a rifle.

I wouldn't call it a rifle. It's more of a sub machine gun. It fires 9mm rounds (same as a 9mm handgun) rather than rifle rounds.

To be specific it's an H&K MP5A5 with a flashlight "tactical" foregrip.

Now, it can be an MP5A3 but I can't see the trigger area to tell. =)