Worked long, hot day today; didn't get paid

[MDJAK]

I've been seriously into photography for the last five years now, mostly taking high school sports. One of the greatest satisfactions for me is seeing a kid's face when I give him a large print for free. I'm lucky enough that my "A" job pays the bills and I don't need photography to be anything but an expensive hobby.

That being said, about three or so years ago I met a gentleman at my son's high school wrestling match who was quite interested in my camera, which at that time was either my D100 or my 10D. I let him use the camera for a while during the match and he loved it. He then began calling me wanting to start a business. I steadfastly refused, as I had neither the time nor the inclination.

To make an already long story short, he developed a very successful business and continually asked/asks me to work for him. Well, after spending a small fortune on my hobby (the 1dsmkII and the Epson 4000, in addition to numerous lenses and bags, viewers, etc), I decided what the heck, I'd take him up on it.

Today was the first time I ever went out with the thought of making money at it. I meet him at a girls' softball tournament at 8:00 a.m. and stayed photographing off and on until 5:00 p.m., in 90 plus heat.

Prior to today, he indicated he would pay me $20.00 per hour which seemed fair to me. When it came time to leave, he said "I'll mail you a check or bring one over because I want to print on your epson 4000 (which I might be selling him.)

Throughout the day parents came over to his booth and purchased pictures. His Canon S9000 was going all day.

If you've gotten this far, thanks. Here's my question: Was I a wimp for leaving without getting paid? I am a bit upset over it, not a lot but a little. I just feel it wasn't right.

Am I wrong? I do have confidence that he will pay, by the way.

[gkuenning]

No, I don't think you should have gotten paid right then and there. Do you get paid on an instant daily basis in your "A" job? It depends a little bit on the dynamics of the situation; after all, he did have a lot of cash in his hands. But he may have very good reasons for delaying payment. For instance, if he's a good businessman he wants to count the money and enter it into his books, then calculate your time and enter it as an expense. Paying you on the spot is possible but complicates matters.

ALso, he knows you don't need the money to pay the rent. If you were a one-time contact, or if you obviously needed the money, he should have paid right away. But in this situation I think it's not a big deal. It's more likely that he's using it as a way to maintain more contact with you.

[Curtis N]

Your wages are a tax-deductable expense for him. He probably would prefer to write you a check so he has a paper trail. Just good business practice.

I would expect to be paid before the next gig, though.

[Pyromaniac]

I will agree with Curtis and gkuenning, my day job pays bi-weekly not daily, so if your an employee for him he'll probably pay you like any other employer pays there employees. Personally however I never do any thing I'm actually getting paid for with out knowing when I'll get paid.

[GenEOS]

If you wanted to get paid that day, you should have discussed it prior to the shoot. It's business. Treat it like business. Some on-site vendors like him pay "within 90 days" per contract terms. This always bothers me when dealing with these guys. When working for someone for whom I do not know, I like to get paid upfront or atleast after the event. He shoudl be able to cut you a chek at the event...But this should be discussed prior to the shoot. My opinion.

[MDJAK]

While I agree with everything above, I guess my point was that it was disappointing not to walk away with cash. I fully realize that my wages are a tax deduction to him, but in reality, most people, and I'm certainly not saying all, when they take in cash are not reporting it all. He also has a large after-event sale on his website which I'm sure he has to report.

Maybe I just felt that he should have thrown me $150 cash when I was done, which would obviously make me more inclined to do it in the future.

On the other hand, perhaps by getting paid legitimately, I can begin to deduct the cost of my equipment.

[Bruce Hamilton]

Now that this guy has succeeded in getting you to work for/with him, what is your status with his company? Are you an employee of his company, or are you a freelance photographer? If you're an employee, he's required by law to withold federal and/or state income taxes and social security, and he needs an appropriate amount of time to calculate those witholdings and cut you a check. If you're a freelance photographer, you work for yourself and do your own witholdings, and are entitled to be paid the day of the event.

[PhotosGuy]

Personally, I think that when you do get paid, you'll still be underpaid! $150 cash before taxes?
But more to the point , GM has paid me in 1 week (fluke!), & in 5 months for the exact same job, both shot in the same week BTW. Your mistake was in not nailing down the terms before you shot.

[IndyJeff]

I don't know why you expect to get paid at all.

One of the greatest satisfactions for me is seeing a kid's face when I give him a large print for free.

If it was ok then when you had printing costs, why do you want to be paid now? You don't have any expenses, just your time practicing your hobby.

[Jackal]

I don't know why you expect to get paid at all.



If it was ok then when you had printing costs, why do you want to be paid now? You don't have any expenses, just your time practicing your hobby.

He expects to get paid because....well...You know....

He did this gig to get paid? Come on now.:rolleyes:

[PhotosGuy]

If it was ok then when you had printing costs, why do you want to be paid now? You don't have any expenses, just your time practicing your hobby. LOL! Or, more to the point...

[PhotosGuy]

OK, let me put my comment into perspective. Go online & see what it would cost to rent a 1dsmkII & whatever "L" you used for the job. Note that they don't come with an operator. ;-) He's getting a very good deal, isn't he?

2nd case: Now suppose you have a contract to shoot & your cam packs up. What now?

[MDJAK]

The reason I expected to get paid is because he indicated he would be paying me. When I practice my hobby, I do it for an hour or two when I want to, not for over eight hours in the heat while missing my 14 year old daughter's last soccer game back home. This was a job.

And my status with him, I believe, is that of a freelancer.

Also, I think some people here may be missing the point, which I say most respectfully as I appreciate everyone's input. While he has a successful business at this point, one that's growing, he's kind of running it half-ass, excuse my french, and that's why there was no prior agreement as to exactly how much or how or when I would be paid.

A number of weeks ago when we were supposed to do a big tournament which was rained out is when he indicated $20 per hour which I agreed to. I just automatically assumed that he would take some money out of the cash box he was stuffing and pay me for my time. I know I would have.

And I was using my 70-200 f/2.8 IS along with the 24-70 f/2.8. I was going to bring my Epson p2000 for people to view the pictures (as the contact sheets he was printing had 40 per page, much too small for the average person to see) but I didn't want so many people handling it. I hate when people touch my screen.

[JacobPhoto]

sucks... but been there, done that.

were your exchanges via phone? email?

Now, before I do a job, i ask when i'll be paid and how. To me, that's just as important as how much I'm being paid.

[MDJAK]

exchanges were both via email and phone.

Knowing the person would help everyone, obviously, in assessing the situation. He's a full time railroad employee who works nights. Photography is his second income at this point. He happens to be a very nice guy and I have no doubt that I will be paid. I also don't want to blow this out of proportion. I earn a good living and spend on my hobbies extravagantly. While I save for retirement, I believe in living for today. So, while $50 or $100 is not going to make or break me or even make a difference for even a moment, I guess it was just the principle.

Maybe if it was a nice cool day, shorter in length, maybe if I didn't see for the first time a person actualy get paid for photography, maybe then I wouldn't have cared.

I would actually like to send my son on future assignments, as he's an out of work college freshman soon to be sophomore, but I know he would not want to walk away with no money.

I also see for the first time that this guy truly earns his money. It is hard work.
One mother came up asking that we get her daughter while batting. I went over there and as luck would have it, she was the DH, first batter of the game. By the time I raised my camera, she had bunted for an out. I had to wait in the blazing sun for three innings for her to get up again. I didn't miss it that time.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Now that this guy has succeeded in getting you to work for/with him, what is your status with his company? Are you an employee of his company, or are you a freelance photographer? If you're an employee, he's required by law to withold federal and/or state income taxes and social security, and he needs an appropriate amount of time to calculate those witholdings and cut you a check. If you're a freelance photographer, you work for yourself and do your own witholdings, and are entitled to be paid the day of the event.

Only if he pays you $600.00 or more..

Most likely we are talking 1099 here,. and the payee would still like to track it via check.

No one likes to pay cash.. that more than anything else would reek of evasion.

[IndyJeff]

The reason I expected to get paid is because he indicated he would be paying me. When I practice my hobby, I do it for an hour or two when I want to, not for over eight hours in the heat while missing my 14 year old daughter's last soccer game back home. This was a job.

Welcome to the world of youth sports. I have been at a venue from 7:30 am until 9pm and then went home and editted and posted images until 2am. Back up at 8am and back at the diamond by 10am.

May 20th I was at Indy by 8:30 am. Shot there until about 4 pm and then left to shoot the county baseball championship at 6pm at Victory Field downtown in Indy. No biggie, a 7 inning game and I would be home by about 8:30. I was down to my last card and battery when the home team, the team I was covering, finally scored a run in the bottom of the 12th. Got home around 10. Yes i was bushed, editted and had everything up by 3am.

One hint, the night before freeze a few bottles of water. Keep some in a cooler and the other close by. As the heat melts that first one you still get a nice blast of ice water. Also a small towel in a cooler about half full of water iced down is a great cool me off.

There is nothing easy about youth sports. It is hard work, long hours and sometimes you make good money, sometimes you make minimum wages.

I had a guy come up to me at one hs baseball game and ask if I could get some shots of his kid who was on the other team. I said I would and gave him a card. He emailed me from my website and asked why I was charging him. Another players parent had given him some shots from an earlier game. I asked if he had shots why did he want more. He came back and said mine were better than the dad's shots and he wanted the best he could get but he didn't want to pay those rates. I simply replied that these were images shot by a pro and not some dad in the stands with an 85mm lens. My lenses probably each cost more than dad's camera. He did place an order, something around $60.

As far as the being paid, I am sure you will get paid. Let this time be a lesson to you. From now on, two very important questions you ask before you say YES I WILL DO IT, how much do I get paid and when do I get paid. On your "A" job, when you interviewed, did you accept the job without knowing how much you would be paid and when payday was? Probably not, this shouldn't have been any different.

[MDJAK]

I guess it boils down to a matter of my shyness which prevented me from nailing down the amount and method of payment beforehand.


Thank you all for your advice. As far as freezing water bottles and having a wet towel in a cooler, I saw the teams doing that and I was standing there wilting in envy.

Jeff, I went to your website and loved it. I would love one day to be able to do that. I grew up watching the Indy 500.

Your experiences you've described make it seem as if I only worked a half day. Thanks for putting it in perspective.

I'll also update this post for those interested when I get paid.

[robertwgross]

A former boss of mine showed me his secret to business success.

Out of his briefcase he pulled a pad of printed sheets. At the top of each one, it read "Agreement." At the bottom, there were places for signatures and a date. In the middle, there were blank lines.

Whenever a potential business deal came up, he got it written down on the sheet, and then he would hand it to the other guy to sign.

---Bob Gross---

[blinking8s]

pay me NOW!...thats all I would have said...hehe. And if its onsite printing, Id demand a % not hourly. I too do these sort of jobs just cause I love to photography, but be fair to yourself...

When I do sales on site, the man i work for pays me at the end of the event, but we have a pretty strong trust factor and if there is any extra or orders later, ive always got my check in the mail

[mgbeach]

It kind of seems to me that this guy you're working with/for can't believe his luck at finding someone with equipment and talent to spare who is willing to work for relative pennies. You didn't mention if he was shooting as well. If not, this seems like it should really be your business. I envy you for being able to buy an $8000 camera to make $20/hr!

[tim]

I would ask for more money, $20/hr for all the equipment is a steal. How much have you spent on equipment? $15,000. I'd be asking for significantly more per hour, or at least a percentage of the gross takings. Don't accept a percentage of the net.

As for being paid immediately, it wouldn't occur to me that if you have an ongoing job that I might be paid that day. 28 days would be standard for me here, I probably wouldn't agree to significantly longer. It shouldn't be an issue if you trust him, and if you don't trust him then you shouldn't be working for him (I read that you do trust him).

[IndyJeff]

Ok so he is working from 8-5, a 9 hour day at $20 an hour. That means that before any profit can even be seen, this guy has to make better than probably $250 in sales.

So for the owner to make any money the shooter has to produce at least $30 worth of sales per hour just to break even. Depending on how much he is charging and how well he has marketed the product, he should be able to break his nut so to speak.

$20 an hour isn't a bad day rate with no risk on the part of the shooter.

[GenEOS]

$250-$350 for 10 hours of shooting as a hired gun for an event photographer is about norm/maybe a little low.. I know a couple of guys who have done this for cheer competitions. Sometimes using their own gear, sometimes shooting the event photographers gear. No retaining of copyright, only copies for your portfolio usage. This company hired atleast 4 photogs and paid within a month...

[MDJAK]

Update: He called me and left me a message today. "I want to come over to see your epson 4000 (which I had previously offered to sell him for $1,000, only a few months old, in like-new condition) "And by the way, I got your check -- it's for $75.00. How's Thursday or Friday?"


Is he kidding? I called him back, got his voicemail, told him it was an insult and he could keep it.

BTW, he has more tournaments coming up he needs me for he said.

Fat chance.

[a2279]

First I want to thank for all your honest and frank comments regarding the subject and I hope MDJAK has heard all your comments.

I received an email to read this thread of this site. I am the person MDJAK is referring to. As far as a "half-assed" (pardon my French) business, this is not what I do. I totally love what I do and put my heart into it and my customers love what I do for them. I don't have an "A" job that would afford me to buy my camera. I had an old savings bond which bought me my first camera. I actually love photoshop and 1 year ago I hired a photographer to take pictures for me so I could do my "thing" in photoshop. I paid this may in advance and got the worst photo's I ever saw in my life and from a "professional". So I went out and got my 1st camera and learned w/some pointers from MDJAK, who I thought he and I had become friends, and started taking my own photos. I work 12am - 8am and my wife works 7pm - 7am, so we can work on this "B" job. I put in all my free time to my business because I know that's what it takes. I'm not complaining, I know that you have to work to build a business. My lead photographer gets paid for the job, not by hour, who I can trust to go to a job and work without me, and get the job done, is also working an "A" job and works with me for some extra money. He is one hell of a photographer. So from all of this, I started taking bigger jobs and I need more photographers. But just because you have an expensive camera, and your hobby is taking pictures, doesn't mean you can take the pictures I need. So the $20/hr MDJAK was referring to was a big job in Conn. and I was willing to take the chance and see how well he took softball pictures. The day in question, was a small local tournament and I thought would be a good way to see how he would do, and to see if he himself would like it. When I take pictures, and I know it's my business, on an 8hr day, by myself, I'll take over 800 pictures. With sports as with any action photography you can't stop and get a drink or take a break, you need to be there for the action when it's going on. I'm not here to bad mouth or talk about the originator of this thread, as a matter of fact he arrived at the job a little after 11:00am, and left a little before 5:00pm. He came on the second day of the tournament and because of the rains the night before, it didn't start until 10:00am. To make a long story short, I am writing a check for $100 instead of the $75 that I told him that I would send. I've learned that to bad mouth someone like this, instead of speaking to me directly on the phone, that this is not the kind of person that should be working with my small family company, my customers are very precious to me. The $100 is being sent not because of this forum or his email or voicemails left for me, but because it is what I pay my ace photographer and I believe it's fair. I thought we had an understanding that this was a trial day, as I repeatedly told him. I have no anger towards him and wish him well.

[Andy_T]

Hmmm... calm down, everybody!

I didn't read this thread as MDJAK badmouthing anybody, he was unsure what to do and asking for some advice.

I don't think that any of you wanted to take advantage of the other in any way, but it looks like you got off 'on the wrong foot' - maybe due to not discussing things as open as necessary. Next time you should both mention if you are not 100% content, then it hopefully won't come to situations like that.

Go have a beer together and try to keep friends...

Just my 2c...

Best regards,
Andy

[transcend]

This is why you never, ever work with friends.

[MDJAK]

Thanks, Andy for pointing out that I never badmouthed him. In fact, he forgets to mention that I emailed him the link to this thread so he could read it.

It so happens that I went to the wrong school due to a failure in communication between he and I. I arrived at the wrong school, 50 miles from my home, at 8:00 a.m. the appointed time. At that point, I called him and his wife answered the phone and gave me directions to the right place, which took approximately 20 minutes to get to and so I arrived at 8:20 a.m. I told him I would be glad to send him a copy of my cell phone bill proving same. I also reminded him that right after I arrived and he told me to relax a while before getting started, that I needed to go get suntan lotion, which I had forgotten to bring. He directed me to a store which didn't open until 10:00, which was about five minutes away, and I was back in ten minutes. He seems to forget these minor details which support the time I arrived.

I also invited him to look at the exif data to see the times my shots were taken, but he neglects to mention that also.

My comment about "half-assed" was not meant in any way to be derogatory towards him. It was directed at the way money was discussed, the poor directions, etc. He does an excellent job at what he does.

I mentioned many times that I was very happy for him that he had found a niche and was successful at it.

Here is one email I sent him today:
"Anthony, I guess we had a misunderstanding. And you have a poor memory.

You stated your other guy comes up and gets 150 for eight hours.

In fact, I arrived at the wrong school at 8 a.m. and then came to you by 8:20. I left at 5:00 p.m.

I'll leave it to you to figure out how many hours I was there. If you're a businessman, you should know.

Does your other guy leave without getting paid on the spot? Does he wait a couple of weeks until you go to his house to get paid?

I was there over eight hours, missed my 14 year old's last soccer game to help you out.

Maybe my pictures were not that good; maybe I caused you and your wife some grief by not remembering to erase my cards. It was my first time.

I was also willing to sell you my printer that I paid $1800 for plus tax only a few months ago, for $1,000, and yet you wanted to give me half of what I deserved?

I've done nothing but help you in the time I've known you. If you are honestly mistaken and think I only worked a half a day, then I am jumping to conclusions unfairly. Maybe you are forgetting the fact I was there for nine hours because so much time has gone by.

mark"

Here is the email I sent him to alert him to this forum. If I had badmouthed him, would I have referred him to it? How many times did I repeat he's an honest guy and that I trusted him to pay me?
"Canon Digital Photography Forums - Worked long, hot day today; didn't get paid (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=78973)


Notice the date when I started this thread and read through it. Let me know what you think."

How could I have known over two weeks ago, when I started this thread, that he would have been mistaken re: the time I arrived?

Here is the subsequent and last email I sent him today.

"Anthony, you write better than you think, when you want to.

I don't want to argue with you. If you read through the thread I gave you the link to, you will see that I said over and over again that you were an honest guy and I believed I would get paid.

The fact that I didn't answer your subsequent phone calls today (keep in mind I did call you back and got your voice mail, so I was ready, willing and able to speak to you) is because I'm on trial. I was working each and every time you called. And the reason I was able to email you and not call again, is because the judge I'm working with, Nicholas Colabella, hates cell phones. He has signs up all over his courtroom and all around the hallway regarding their use, threatening to take them away. I could easily type on my computer, and when he comes in, just switch screens so he doesn't know what I'm doing.

Also, what you state about the times is incorrect. You must be mixing up the weekends or day I was there. I left my house late that day, at exactly 7:45 a.m, and arrived at Arlington High School at 8:00, 45 minutes later. That is when I called your cell phone and spoke to your wife and found out I was in the wrong place. (If you still doubt me, I'll email you my cell bill showing the call to your wife at 8:00.) She then gave me directions and I got on the Taconic. I arrived at the field at exactly 8:20. If you remember, I had to wait until after ten o'clock until a store opened to get suntan lotion.

If you still have any doubts, you can check the exif data on the photographs, which provides the time and date.

I did not leave until 5 o'clock, approximately the third inning of the championship game.

If you read through the thread I started in the forum, you will also see that I fully acknowledge how HARD it is to be out there all day. I said you were a very hard worker. I never said you asked me to do anything you didn't do.

I think one thing you are losing sight of is the deals I was about to give you. I recently sold my Canon 20d, 28-135 image stabilized lens, 550ex flash along with the Canon S9000 printer for $1600 to the health teacher in the high school who is also the baseball coach. The camera was less than a year old, cost $1500 alone, the lens was almost 400, the flash was 300 and the printer was 450.

People where I work line up to buy my hand-me-downs because they know how I take care of my things, that they are usually less than a year old, and they are saving over 50 percent.

I was going to sell you a printer which currently sells for $1650 (which I paid 1799 for), which is only a few months old, for $1,000. That's a savings to you of, with tax, over $600. You're the one who wanted to buy it. I was not forcing it on you. I even told you it may not be the printer for you because you like glossy paper. I hid nothing from you.

I was going to sell you my IBM thinkpad which cost me over $3,000 a little over a year ago, for $500.

Believe me, I was not taking advantage of you on these deals. These are great savings for you.

Yet, in spite of that, you wanted to pay me what amounts to minimum wage when you had mentioned $20 an hour in the past.

I never said you didn't offer to teach me photoshop. I've always acknowledged that you were grateful for my helping you, and I appreciated your wanting to help me. I just don't have the time nor, unfortunately, the brain to learn it.

Let's not forget, which you seem to have, that I had you in my office, spent a considerable amount of time with you, taking me away from my other duties, had you over my house, fed you dinner, took your urgent phone calls (when your camera wouldn't focus) when I was in Washington DC working, When I was in Florida on vacation.

I think you have failed to see the big picture. I was someone who was willing to help you out when you needed it. I am reliable. I've done a lot for you and could have in the future.

And then what do you do? You look to save $75, after two or three weeks? I know you were going on vacation. I don't deny that. Come on, Anthony, don't lay this at my door.
mark"

[tim]

I would suggest that you both meet and discuss this calmy and privately, there's not need to have a discussion or argument in a public forum. If you both work in good faith, as it sounds like you have so far, I think you should be able to recover your relationship and continue to work together. I would also suggest a trial period to check that your shooting style matches what is required. You need a written contract for the trial period, and another if you are kept on after the trial.

There are plenty of lessons here for everyone to learn from.

[IndyJeff]

I agree Tim. This is a soap opera. One says he was there at one time the other says he was there at another, blah, blah, blah.


Actually, this is a prime example of how some people (and that is not meant to be a slam on you MDJAK) think that because they have a camera they can do the work.

1. Know where you are going. If your supposed to be there at 8am, plan on being sitting in the parking lot by 7:15am, no later. ALWAYS ARRIVE EARLY, NEVER EVER ON TIME. My first tournament I was there when the guy showed up to prep the fields, one hour and 30 minutes before game time.
You look over the area to see where you will be working, fields of view, backgrounds, lighting or angle of the sun on the field. Where the restrooms are, anything and everything that might possibly happen or could go wrong. Have a plan before hand.
2. Pack your gear and accessories the night before. Load everything but valuable equipment in the car. Go over your gear before you leave, twice.
If you can't be out in the sun for a day without having been coated with a sun screen first, forget doing sports photography. You will still get burned. Plus the fact that if hire you and you bring me a card all slippery with sunscreen I am not putting it in my card reader. You lose, sorry.

MD, be sure to check your PM's

[TonyKInTexas]

To add to this, MDJAK you selected the job over your daughter's final game. The person hiring you is not responsible for the choices you make.

Also, you should have gotten a written contract specifying exact location, starting time, ending time, rate per hour and when you would be paid.

As IndyJeff says, arriving on time is actually arriving late when doing professional work. There is prep work one has to do before the first image is taken.

Maybe you and he can salvage the working relationship, but I'm not sure at this point having read the thread.

Take care,

[MDJAK]

I appreciate all the comments, those which indicate I was overpaid/underpaid, to those indicating time to arrive and pre-prep work.

I have held my main job for 29 years and have never been late. I am an on time person. In fact, my hours are 9-5 and I am in work each day by 7:45.

There was no problem with the time I arrived, and I would have been there early, but for the mixup in where I was supposed to go. I had met Anthony at a wrestling tournament three years before and thought it was at a different school. The actual school I was supposed to be at this time was 20 miles closer to my house than where I went. Considering I went 40 miles out of my way and arrived at 8:20, I don't think that was so bad. Neither did he, as he told me to relax, there was no shooting to do for a while. That is when I told him I needed suntan lotion and his assistant directed me to a dollar store which didn't open until 10:00. I was gone ten minutes and came back and we still did not start shooting for a while.

He doesn't just shoot every at bat of every game. He tries to get parents to order specific things and then shoots their kids.

I also went on his website to look at my pictures. I compared mine with his and see no difference. In fact, one 13x19, which I believe he charges $50 for, he printed on spec, meaning he had no order for it. He went over to the parents and they bought it on the spot; he came over and threw the money down on the table at his wife quite proud. That happened to be a picture I took. Whether it was or not is of no consequence. His wife asked him if they wanted a receipt and he said they didn't want one. So his comment about having an expensive camera not meaning much, I agree, but I didn't see him comment that my pictures were not good. AFter all, they're on his site for sale.

[MDJAK]

To add to this, MDJAK you selected the job over your daughter's final game. The person hiring you is not responsible for the choices you make.

Also, you should have gotten a written contract specifying exact location, starting time, ending time, rate per hour and when you would be paid.

As IndyJeff says, arriving on time is actually arriving late when doing professional work. There is prep work one has to do before the first image is taken.

Maybe you and he can salvage the working relationship, but I'm not sure at this point having read the thread.

Take care,

Tony, perhaps I wasn't clear. I didn't select this over my daughter's final game. I didn't know it was her final game until I got home and my wife told me. I thought there was more games left. I blame no one for that but myself.

As far as my inappropriate comment way back about running a half-ass business, that also goes to his complete lack of contracts, agreements, etc. He is running a family run business and is doing well. It is apparent that when problems arise, paperwork in advance would have nipped this in the bud. Whether he ever goes that route, that's his choice but I don't see it.

[rdenney]

...there's not need to have a discussion or argument in a public forum.

Amen. I learned a long time ago to conduct business in private. Once you've staked a position in public, there's no backing down from what people perceive your position to be. The originator of a thread does not own the conversation, and feelings will get hurt.

And too often such discussions end up in reputations being damaged, often including the reputation of the perceived wronged party.

I think Bob's advice is best--write down expectations. As we have seen even in this thread, words get twisted even by people of good will based on their private expectations.

A good contract includes the period of service, the type of service, and the compensation, both the amount and the time of payment. Four sentences and two signatures could have prevented this misunderstanding.

The problem is not doing business with friends. Who should we do business with, enemies? Strangers? The problem is doing business with friends without putting the business on a proper business footing. Both parties forgot to take care of that in this case. Venting about it in public made it all the more difficult to clear up.

Rick "who doesn't care when whoever showed up wherever and did whatever" Denney

[TonyKInTexas]

And it is your choice as well. If he does not provide the paperwork, you can IF you decide to do more work for him.

Anytime you are approached for professional level services, a written contract is always your best guarantee. Not everything goes smoothly, even with a contract. Yet a contract can spell out what is expected of both parties and should also define remedies should things go wrong.

Take care,

As far as my inappropriate comment way back about running a half-ass business, that also goes to his complete lack of contracts, agreements, etc. He is running a family run business and is doing well. It is apparent that when problems arise, paperwork in advance would have nipped this in the bud. Whether he ever goes that route, that's his choice but I don't see it.

[a2279]

Mark, the check is in the mail.

[robertwgross]

I think Bob's advice is best--write down expectations. As we have seen even in this thread, words get twisted even by people of good will based on their private expectations.

A good contract includes the period of service, the type of service, and the compensation, both the amount and the time of payment. Four sentences and two signatures could have prevented this misunderstanding.


That is certainly good advice. I used to be in a line of work where deals would be made over a phone call, and then a couple of weeks later, I would show up at some site across the country to do an all-day task such as teaching a class. We found that the verbal deals were bad business. At least have a "paper trail" of email messages showing exactly who said what. Purchase orders and contracts are well and good, but sometimes an email record will have to serve.

---Bob Gross---

[awp]

I hired out 3 photographers for 8-10 hours each to shoot a opening day baseball games. I put in writing what, when, and how they would be paid. 2 of the 3 are freinds and relatives. When it is in writing, everything is clear and can be backed up. by the way, I wish I only paid them $20 an hour.

[Rob612]

I believe that this post should be locked. No way, once this stuff go public it doesnt' really matter if it was just a misunderstaning or something completely different. It actually turns almost automatically in a very unpleasant situation. You two guys should have just go out for a beer an discuss this among yourselves. But now that this has gone public, I believe it can be hard.

Just my 0.02.

[TonyKInTexas]

I disagree about locking this thread. While it would have been better for both parties for the OP to have called up the person who hired him to discuss this, there has been a LOT of good information flowing which benefits everyone.

And so far, nothing too heated has been said.

[MDJAK]

Mark, the check is in the mail.

Thank you, Anthony. I look forward to receiving it. I will remember it as my first paying gig as a photographer. Too bad I was such a moron.

[IndyJeff]

I believe this calls for a group hug. :)

[PhotosGuy]

I believe this calls for a group hug. (With apologies to Peter, Paul & Mary for the possible © infringement!)
All together now...

Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someone’s singing lord, kumbaya
Someone’s singing lord, kumbaya
Someone’s singing lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbayah

Someone’s laughing, lord, kumbaya
Someone’s laughing, lord, kumbaya
Someone’s laughing, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someone’s crying, lord, kumbaya
Someone’s crying, lord, kumbaya
Someone’s crying, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someone’s praying, lord, kumbaya
Someone’s praying, lord, kumbaya
Someone’s praying, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

Someone’s sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Someone’s sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Someone’s sleeping, lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya
Oh lord, kumbaya

[RichardtheSane]

Mark and Anthony, I hope you can put this mis-understanding behind you and work together in the future. It seems you have the potential to make a good team - but remember (and fo r those in the UK, think mid 90's BT advert...) It'a good to talk...

[MDJAK]

I have confidence that he will pay me.

I'll also update this post for those interested when I get paid.

As I said, I had confidence he would pay me. He posted a few days ago that the check was in the mail, and indeed it was. I received his check for $100.

My first, and probably last, paying gig as a photographer. Boy, oh boy, was that a short career.:)

[martook]

Not that I really want to open this thread again, but I just have to add that I've had similar problems (although not related to taking photos) in the past as well, and I can't really blame anyone but myself for it, always always always get agreements on paper, contracts of every kind should be printed!

For some reason I'm the kind of guy that trusts everyone even if I don't know them. And I really trust people I've talked to in person. It's very easy to take advantage of people like me, and I can't even say for sure that I wouldn't have acted the same way as the other person in some cases, although I hope I wouldn't have...
Not sure what I'm trying to say here, except... trust no1! ;)