I feel like I might be selling myself short...

[Stan Jones Photography]

When I do a set of senior photos, I shoot, edited, and distribute all in the matter of a couple of days, I charge $100 for senior photos (class of '10) and I feel like I might be doing too much work for what I'm charging. Is it unreasonable to charge $125 or $150 for...

-All day shoot which includes however many locations we can pack into a day and Speedlites/umbrellas/stands/hassle
-Proof CD with tons of photos small sized with a watermark (if customer wants), orrrrr....
-Final cut CD with AS MANY photos as they chose for me to finish editing (or if no proof CD was sent) (also, printable photos in .TIFF format, along with a little bit smaller, high-Q JPEG files for internet posting)
-Links and addresses on the CD of places to get prints from




Check out my Flickr and give me an honest opinion if I've got enough credentials to charge that up to $150 per shoot

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sxsphotography/


I know you guys/gals have seen this type of thread a million kagillion times, but I'd definitely like to verify some stuff, I guess haha.

[Chris215]

Recently I've been feeling the same way, I've been selling my self short. Judging your work, you could be charging 200-300+ depending on how you define a shoot. (hours and time)

[lighthalo]

dude your pics are awesome. 200$ min i would say. 100$ is a steal. i think 250$ would be a good price considering the quality of your work, but thats being conservative.

are you mainly booking the shoots through the parents or through the kids?

[Stan Jones Photography]

dude your pics are awesome. 200$ min i would say. 100$ is a steal. i think 250$ would be a good price considering the quality of your work, but thats being conservative.

are you mainly booking the shoots through the parents or through the kids?

To the dude above Lighthalo: Thank you tons!

and to lighthalo

Ah,l now I feel like I'm being lame for charging 300 for weddings! hahahaha

It's about half and half, I HATE being 19 and a semi-legitimate freelance photographer!!!. When I tell kids 100 they're like 'Isn't 50 good?!?!', and that's a hard reaction to go off of. I've only been shooting seriously for about a year, and for me, it's difficult to convince people that I'm worth 200 bucks! D=

So guys, tell me how to grow a pair, now! bahahaha

[lighthalo]

wow dude, im 22 (the reference to kids was if i had some to shoot) and ive been taking pics for a few years, lately ive been getting into weddings and my pics/equipment isnt as awesome as yours and ive been making around 400-500ish per wedding (i've shot 3 so far).. i have a 1000$ wedding coming up relatively soon.. hopefully i can get a new camera by then (ive been shooting on a 40D) maybe upgrading to a 7D hopefully soon..

i guess its all about networking and people you know. i see you have a myspace, you should get a facebook and make a fan page for yourself, its what i have. im a little embarrassed actually to show you my work cuz ur work is so good but if you want to check it out here it is: www.facebook.com/ftwproductions

good luck!
So guys, tell me how to grow a pair, now! bahahaha


i think your self esteem will go up a few points when you see my pictures haha

[Stan Jones Photography]

Baha, I worked doubletime (80+ hrs a week) on a road crew this summer, so I had to push photography aside for a good five months (which killed me), so this equipment came from blood, sweat, tears, and a lot of other fluids that generally come out of the human body hahahahahaha.

Yeah, I've got a facebook fan page up and everything! It's crappy, but it gets me a little bit of play, haha. I'm from Nebraska and I'm shooting some kid from Kansas' senior photos tomorrow, his mom gave me a call on my celly and i thought she was the one getting shot, it was cockward to say the least :P. I've been in the hardcore and metal scene in nebraska for a couple of years now, and I promote a pretty okay sized tattoo shop here in Lincoln.... so I know a few people if you catch my drift :P.


And dude, I added you as a fan on facebook, SCORE!

PS: Thanks for the compliments! They definitely help me out tons!

[Karl Johnston]

You know what they say, you're only worth what the market will bear. Try to figure out if its possible to still get work in your area if you're priced for more..and if not, then try to figure out how to set yourself and your service apart from the competition (however that is).

There's generally two brackets of people who go for photos - those that need them, those that want them.

Need
A lot of people don't know the difference between what they want - they want to be shown, easily, conveniently and straight off the bat why you're the better deal. Consider when you go for a car wash..you're not really thinking about it, all you want is a your car washed. You may not car how it's done, whether they do it by hand or have a big machine..all you care about is getting it done and having your product (a clean car) in the end.

Want
Consider though, you have had bad experiences if you dont shop around for not only the best deal..but the best service. Car Wash Plus will not only wash your car in under 30 seconds they will also give you a lollipop and a free decal while you have a complimentary coffee in the waiting area. They charge 20$ a wash. Car Wash Limited down the street only charges 9, though they have a couple of kids with squeegees and it takes them a good 10 minutes to give your car a proper wash.

Often people are used to accepting the fact that you get what you pay for. Illustrate that when pushing up your prices..like I'm about to do as I re-evaluate my pricing structure:

A sample of me from my website
http://www.synergystudiosphotography.com/portraiture/


Gold Package: $150.00

* Up to 1 hour portrait session at location of your choice
* One DVD of a slideshow of the session
* One disk of proofs optimized for web use and for deciding which images to print

Diamond Package $250.00

* Up to 2 hours of a portrait session at location of your choice
* One DVD of a slideshow of the session
* One disk of proofs optimized for web use and for deciding which images to print
* Free print credit of $25;

Aurora Package $350.00

* Up to 3 hours of a portrait session at 2 locations of your choice
* One DVD of a slideshow of the session
* One disk of proofs optimized for web use and for deciding which images to print
* Free print credit of $50;

In my market people don't really see the value in something like that..not anymore, anyway, their tastes have changed (or perhaps I am just finding more of the paying clients want a change); they prefer a product they can see, feel, have in their hands within a few days after the shoot. Then there are those that don't have computers, so a part of the product is useless. The general consensus with my market is - they do not see the value in the product I am offering..so I either have to lower it (impossible) or manipulate it to increase the value.

Rather I was planning on swapping out web CDs and DVD slideshows for custom designed albums; designed with a catalog feature so people can order from the catalog the prints and other options they want..and yet still have a quality product to keep in their living rooms or wherever. A lot of people I'm starting to see don't have access to the web or do not socialize on places like facebook or myspace..or are used to receiving prints and wallets. So in my case; i need to adapt or ...just not get any more business from those kinds of clients.

Short answer: If you can afford to raise your prices without sacrificing your business - by all means you're more than good enough of a photographer.


Though keep in mind..:If you have issues raising your prices with your clients and they have issues with the product they're now paying more for:

1) Change your target market
2) Convince your current market why you're a better investment (ie: in my case I am increasing the value of the package while at the same time answering to their need)


Hope that offered some insight.

PS: I'd be starving if I offered what you were offering :lol: though, I live in a really ...unique market...and it's (in)famous for having a unique climate for businesses of all kinds. No pun intended. As a student I can afford to live a little bit cheaper than a regular person...otherwise if I were completely on my own I would have to markup my time by triple, at least, otherwise I could not afford to operate. This is a big thing...consider how much business you can get for the amount that you charge and factor out how much you need to take away in order to live. If you can't live doing 99$ portrait sessions then there is no real point to doing 99 portrait sessions - it's just not possible.

If I didn't have a fine art segment in my business I would not be able to offer prices as cheap as I do. Consider that too...maybe if marking up senior portraits is not an option for you...perhaps you need to allocate or create a new product, service that will allow you to make up the difference and make ends meet.

Just some more thoughts

In the days of walmart, jostens and other mass corporations doing portraits for pocket change you need to set yourself apart and be unique. Target the people that want what you offer..and examine your competition. If Annie Applegate up the street is doing exactly what you do, for a better price, offering more prints and accessories then chances are you'll find it a bit more difficult to do this. If you can manage it, though, then you definitely should.

It's pretty straight forward - just target the want market rather than the need market. A lot of this mumbo jumbo is done in the back of your mind or on paper (try googling "marketing plans for photographers"..there used to be a website that held a few of them that taught me lot about all of this), it's not something you think about everyday, just once and a while it helps to draw out a map of where you want to go and how is the best route to get there. A lot of photog's its not their style to be behind a desk or jot down ideas, though for some it does help.

Old adage: Those that fail to plan; plan to fail.

I'm also in a similar situation as you...young, a student in college, freelancing all over to pay the bills, not really completely self-sufficient and solid but getting there ....the one thing that really helped legitimize me was: Consistency, professionalism, and just offering what I have been told is: "Good business"

It's my mantra, good business leads to good referrals, good quality of product means people will pass that on. Every shoot you do is an advertisement, every print you put out is an advertisement and when you think about it that way you do a lot better to ensure everything you do is done as best as you can do it as many times as you can do it. Been in business for less than 8 months, and for the first 4 I didn't know up from down.

Experience; learn it, teach it, pass it on and when you can..sell it.

[jdhart73]

I am sure you have researched this but I just browsed a few photogs in your area and what they charge. The average seems to be 200-350ish.
STANLEY JONES you are jipping yourself brother! Your are doing a lot of work for a little of nothing.

Good luck!

Jake

[lighthalo]

thanks for being a fan dude! i'd love to hear your critiques on some upcoming weddings i have.

on to the topic of what you charge, etc. You also have to remember that what you're charging for IS NOT pictures, its service. i took a look at your myspace (hey theres a link, why not?) and i noticed you have tattoos (im pretty sure thats you) my advice would be to cover them while interacting with the client. im sure you know this but being professional, acting and dressing professional are all part of asking a higher price.

also, it might help if you do tiered packages like Karl Johnson has, maybe one starting at 100 ranging up to whatever and have what is going to be delivered clearly stated.

hope this all helps!

[tim]

$100 is just ridiculous for what you do. You're not a top senior photographer, but you're a heck of a lot better than a lot of them. $100/hr would be closer. Check out tricoast photography (google 'em) to see senior work, and they may have pricing around too.

Set your price at $500, then offer discounts. Personally I wouldn't even get out of bed for what they're paying you, it's HARD WORK. $1000 is more like what i'd charge, but you'd be better at senior photos than me. I just value my time.

[l330n]

I agree, your work is worth waaaaaaaaaaaaay over what u charge. Sweet az pics. Lookd through almost all your images. Superb.

[tim]

Your girlfriend's cute too :p

[bigrob]

I've only just realised that when the Yanks say they shoot seniors they mean college seniors.

I always thought they mean old folk. :lol:

[EnronRocks]

I agree that $100 dollars is ridiculous. I would follow Karl's pricing structure in all honesty, I personally don't even list prices for sitting fees on my website, I ask that they contract me so we can build a package around their needs. When building their package, I always have cheaper alternatives.

Also what I would do, since you are looking to charge more, is invest in a full website along with your myspace. I dunno if you have business cards or not, but get into it hardcore. Advertise yourself and show off your work on a website your deserve. Your pictures are amazing and they need to be showcased as such, you are a prime candidate for something other than a Flickr and MySpace.

[Ernst-Ulrich Schafer]

Personally your leaving alot of money on the table. You have talent and you really don't value yourself and what you are offering.

My average for a 2hr HS Senior is $800, but then they buy professional portraits from me and I don't just hand out a CD.

Ernst

[Accessoire]

you do some great work!
+1 more on raising your prices

[zachbreaux]

Its quite clear that you should definitely be charging more than 100.

[Stan Jones Photography]

So I haven't been dreaming haha, thanks guys/gals.

Now here's the tricky part, convincing the class of 2011 that I'm just as good as the competition!!!!

Next year will be $175 per shoot!

[KFormus]

Stanley,

I haven't read the other posts, but in my opinion if you are not making at LEAST $400 per session on average, than you are doing something wrong, and it isn't your photos.

Good luck.

Kelly

[Chris215]

$175 seems low, i would say minimum $200 just to even it up :D

[zachbreaux]

I would second that. You can make business merely on the basis that your photography won't be a run of the mill, mediocre, senior session that charges out of the ass. I only wish i had been into photography when i graduated. There were so many people looking for a cheaper alternative. I would have raked in the business.

[tim]

I've only just realised that when the Yanks say they shoot seniors they mean college seniors.

I always thought they mean old folk. :lol:

It took me a while to work that out too!

[Ernst-Ulrich Schafer]

Stanley, Stop worrying about the competition, worry about what your doing. From what I'm seeing you won't be around in a couple of years, because you'll be broke! At $175 for a session & a CD your not thinking about all of your costs nor your talent and time.

Ernst

[Hikin Mike]

It took me a while to work that out too!

And I'm a "yank" and when I first heard that term a few years ago, I thought the same thing! :lol:

[intrinsicvalue]

Stanley,

I'm in the same boat you are... young, new and trying to get your name out there. Your work is great (better than mine hands down) and you certainly have more equipment and therefore shooting options.

What I've figured out is that I'm worth as much as I think I am. I don't want to over charge my clients, but when people start questioning prices I have to resist the temptation to cave simply because I'm afraid to lose the business. I have to stick to my guns. If there's room to adjust a package it's certainly something to consider, but what it sounds like to me is that you need to convince yourself that you're worth it. Convincing others is much easier when you believe in what it is you're offering.

I would also take the suggestion given above about covering any tattoos. The seniors may not take notice, but most of the time it's the parents that are paying the bills. You have to be able to impress Mom and still make your subject feel comfortable. You're selling yourself as much as you're selling your photography. Do that and more business will follow.

As a snarky side comment I'd say that when those seniors say isn't $50 enough, ask them if they'd work all day plus the hours you spend editing for $50, and then ask them if they could afford to feed themselves on less than minimum wage (because really that's what you'd be making).

Best of luck.

Stefanie

[S-Man]

I've only just realised that when the Yanks say they shoot seniors they mean college seniors.

I always thought they mean old folk. :lol:

It's actually High School Seniors...Unless you guys call grades 9-12 "College" :confused:

A senior in HS is grade 12...One of those American things where titles make people feel better about themselves :lol:

Edit: And yeah, dude, you should be waaaaayyyyy more than $100. Tim was more in the ballpark. Your work is awesome!
However, you can only go as high as the market will stand. Sure there's a niche or $500+ senior photos, but depending on your area and whatnot, most parents don't want to spend much on this stuff.
Tri-Coast is an amazing Senior Portrait machine. We're actually fortunate enough to have a couple of Tri-Coasters on a local forum here in Texas.

[Karl Johnston]

In the meantime why don't you educate the rest of us on how to light like you do . ;)

[MarkAnthonyPhotography]

I'll throw my 2 cents in lol.
Over the years I've searched for that elusive answer to "how much do I charge?" And I think I've finally found a "piece" of the answer. Its that dam disc you give out!! Once you give someone a disc of high res images, your no longer needed! You have to treat your images as...hate to say it, but "works of art". You spend just as much time tweakin' and brushin' on an image as a painter does on a painting.
The minute I learned that, my money showed up! Our Seniors pay for our time, then they spend their parents money on our products. Images, books, posters, yada yada. The more you offer, the more they want! An example. One of our Senior packages is $500. $200 goes to the photographer (me usually). The client gets $300 "print credit" to spend as they please once they see the images. Now, the trick is that even though you give them $300 "credit", it's not costing you $300! Unless your print prices are retarded! I know this sounds off the charts, but trust me it works! But you have to believe in it. Once you become a "pro photographer", meaning you charge, you become 80% salesman, 20% photographer. Even if you don't think your work is a good as "Bobs Senior Shack" down the road, make the client believe you are! You know your shots are good, even if you don't think so, because they came to you!! Confidence goes along way in this business. And stop giving your images away!! If you must, by all means give them a "proof" disc. But not the HR images. Honestly, we average about $500-$600 print orders from each session. thats before the print credit, but still. that credit only cost me like $40-50!!! We've had some upwards of $700! Why? Because they have to come to us to get their prints!! Mom, Dad, Grandma, other Grandma, Aunts, Uncles, cousins, and OHHH the boyfriends/Girlfriends!!! It's like having 2 clients in 1!! A really good trick for you to use if the client asks why you won't give the images out. Get a print made at local labs. Walmart, WalGreens, CVS, etc. Then get that same image printed from your lab. (And I hope you use a good one! lol. Even MPIXs lab is good enough! ) Then lay them all out on a table with a label on each one that says where they came from. It will shut even the pickiest mom up in a heartbeat! The quality of the prints speak volumes. So you tell them, "I'm giving you a finished product of mine that I worked very hard on to get to this point. If I let you take that image and have it printed on a glossy piece of toilet paper to display in your home, well then thats doing me AND you an injustice!"
Okay, im rambling on, but this is a very sore subject to me when I see talented photographers having to give their images away because they fell like that is what they have to do to compete. Believe in yourself and your talent. It won't be an easy road, but like they say, nothing worth having is easy.

[MarkAnthonyPhotography]

wow dude, i replied before looking at your Flickr page. Your way above my skills! Time to get paid brotha!

[Stan Jones Photography]

Karl Johnston:
In the meantime why don't you educate the rest of us on how to light like you do

Hahah, most of the time I just bump up my 580exII all the way through a 33" white umbrella and adjust the distance from there now-a-days :D. It's simple, but it works, eh ?????


MarkAnthonyPhotography :
wow dude, i replied before looking at your Flickr page. Your way above my skills! Time to get paid brotha!

Haha, thanks man, this thread really really helped me out with my confidence.

Next year I'll definitely be doubling my rates, and if people are like "Why in the hell did you go up twice as much as you were at last year!??!".... my simply reply will be, "PoTN told me to!"

[amfoto1]

Stanley, Stop worrying about the competition, worry about what your doing. From what I'm seeing you won't be around in a couple of years, because you'll be broke! At $175 for a session & a CD your not thinking about all of your costs nor your talent and time.

Ernst

Bingo!

Its that dam(n) disc you give out!! Once you give someone a disc of high res images, your no longer needed!

Yahtzee!

Typical newbie mistake... "Shoot and scoot" is a short-term, instant gratification, lazy way of doing business.

You are giving up a huge amount of money by not following through on the job to it's completion... the final print and/or digital image.

You also surrender your customer relationships and your quality control.

The only way to do that successfully is to charge much, much more for the CD and/or the sitting... But you'll still lose QC and the ongoing relationship/potential for repeat sales to the same customer.

And most customers balk at a hefty up front cost, although they might well spend even more with you in increments over time.

Those folks are going to get engaged, get married, have kids, buy a home, throw parties, celebrate holidays, watch their kids grow up and graduate from K, Elementary, Middle and High School... eventually college.

With your business model, you are essentially giving away all those future opportunities to other photographers. Sure, you might have a few come back and hire you... But most will have forgotten your name and lost your business card.

Do a "cost of doing business" study. Also do a "viability" study, which goes beyond the cost of doing business and looks at what you actually need to make for this to be a sustainable business over time. I think you'll be surprised.

Right now, you aren't bringing in enough to replace your cameras and lenses after you've worn them out. You won't have sufficient income to upgrade and keep up with the competition.

Stop selling yourself short!

[Accessoire]

Next year I'll definitely be doubling my rates, and if people are like "Why in the hell did you go up twice as much as you were at last year!??!".... my simply reply will be, "PoTN told me to!"

yep, just blame it on us, we'll take the heat :p

[Stan Jones Photography]

Bingo!



Yahtzee!

Typical newbie mistake... "Shoot and scoot" is a short-term, instant gratification, lazy way of doing business.

You are giving up a huge amount of money by not following through on the job to it's completion... the final print and/or digital image.

You also surrender your customer relationships and your quality control.

The only way to do that successfully is to charge much, much more for the CD and/or the sitting... But you'll still lose QC and the ongoing relationship/potential for repeat sales to the same customer.

And most customers balk at a hefty up front cost, although they might well spend even more with you in increments over time.

Those folks are going to get engaged, get married, have kids, buy a home, throw parties, celebrate holidays, watch their kids grow up and graduate from K, Elementary, Middle and High School... eventually college.

With your business model, you are essentially giving away all those future opportunities to other photographers. Sure, you might have a few come back and hire you... But most will have forgotten your name and lost your business card.

Do a "cost of doing business" study. Also do a "viability" study, which goes beyond the cost of doing business and looks at what you actually need to make for this to be a sustainable business over time. I think you'll be surprised.

Right now, you aren't bringing in enough to replace your cameras and lenses after you've worn them out. You won't have sufficient income to upgrade and keep up with the competition.

Stop selling yourself short!

So are you saying I should start to do the prints myself, or that my CD is worth more than just the sitting fee plus a few bucks?

[Ernst-Ulrich Schafer]

What Mark & Amfoto1 said!!!!

Stanley, I live in small town America, Timber is down, Fishing is down and of course we all here about the economy, however I have had my best year yet with my studio and my HS Senior Market.
I have a Reservation Fee for my time, for the Seniors 2hrs = a $300 Res Fee, which is paid up front when I put them on my planner. I don't have any no shows!!!! ;-) At the ordering appt they get this $300 back as a credit and usually they spend about $800 with me on an average. Some spend less and some spend more. I don't sell packages as everything at my studio is A la Carte. I like simply.
It's working for me and I keep paying all of my bills and then some. You need to be a business person lst in this profession, taking pretty pictures is just a bonus.

I would highly recommend that you join your states organiztion and start attending their yearly conventions. It will give you a good start and a great wake up call.

Best to ya, Ernst

[Karl Johnston]

So are you saying I should start to do the prints myself, or that my CD is worth more than just the sitting fee plus a few bucks?
Where do you think the money comes from when doing portraits? A good session brings in 1-2000$ worth of prints in a high end area. For my area the average tends to be about 2-600$ worth of prints per session.

To be able to live off of the 80$ an hour, 3 shoots a day you make about 200$ a day which is below poverty...in other words unless you shoot like that every day, 3 portraits a day is a ton of work, then you aren't making any money to live off of. For a lot of people they don't have that kind of volume $200 a day is low

Not only charge for your prints but put a markup on them. Most portrait photogs, depending on the area, can reasonably charge 20$ per 8x10, 50 per 11x14, 80 per 17x22, and then accessories are usually marked up about 100-200%, say if a mug costs you 11$ to make you sell it for about 20-25$

Don't worry...we'll work on you ;)

A few people give out high resolution DVDs or "Digital negatives" which, for some, are the RAW files but I find this is retarded because often the client doesn't know what to do with a RAW file and RAW files aren't a fully finished product (no retouching or processing). So what I do is sell the high resolution jpegs which are capable of huuuuuuuuuuuuge prints for $100/cd. Some photogs sell for a lot more..but if you go back to reading page 1 where I wrote that book of a post..some can't do that.

Some limit the sale of a high resoluition dvd once print prices exceed a certain number or amount (say 500$ or so)

Amfoto isn't kidding when he says you're giving up a huge amount of money. I looked through your flickr and you can probably pass or qualify as high end, depending on how you market yourself. Think 2 grand per portrait session...portrait session takes me 3 hours to fully complete including processing and printing.Three a day if it gets constant enough, working full time hours around the clock...the downside is it will probably take you a good 2 years or so before you get to the point where you're organized enough and constant enough and branded well enough to be able to do that kind of volume.

The downside is it is never constant and every print you put out is an advertisement that will sit in your client's home for enternity. If it's got one thing wrong with it someone's going to notice it and then that referral will go from a positive one to a negative review..so it's a lot more work.

The other downside is maybe they won't buy any prints

Another downside is maybe they don't like the work and refuse to pay the sitting fee. In this case this is where you say, beforehand in your contract, that sitting fees are non refundable, pay for your time, and are due before the shoot.

[bigrob]

I have a Reservation Fee for my time, for the Seniors 2hrs = a $300 Res Fee, which is paid up front when I put them on my planner. I don't have any no shows!!!! ;-) At the ordering appt they get this $300 back as a credit.

Best to ya, Ernst

I think this could work for me as well. I will be doing sports photography part-time (i.e. weekends) from Feb next year.

My youngest son's soccer team go on tour every year for a weekend tournament.

I'm thinking along lines of Shooting fee as per Ernest. For example a £50 fee, which they then get in print credits. If they don't want it, then I don't shoot their kids.

My oldest son also goes on a rugby league tour later in the year and this could be an option for that as well.

mmm got me thinking. Thanks Ernest.

[amfoto1]

No, you don't have to do your own printing. You should find a good lab either online or locally where you can send files for printing. You'll probably want to work closely with them and do your own post processing.

Then set your own pricing for prints, marking up what they cost you. Offer a variety of products, depending upon what's available through your printer.

I use Printroom.com but that doesn't mean they are right for you. They specialize in sports/events/weddings and their product lineup is geared toward those.

When it comes to CDs, yes I have been put in the position where I have to offer digital files... too. I now offer printable, high quality, fully edited files for $18 per image, as downloads or on CD/DVD. They'll be able to make a nice 8x10 from the file. That might be pretty low priced, though, geared to the sports/events market. For comparison, a basic 8x10 print costs $20. That's also pretty cheap, overall.

A wedding photographer might charge double these amounts in my market, and this is in addition to their shooting fee with probably starts around $1500 per wedding, but more likely would be $2000+.

Sure, there are $200 "shoot and scoot" wedding photogs, too, who hand the B&G a CD as they leave the reception... But they won't be in business very long.

Frankly, at this point you might be wise to try to get price sheets from local photographers in your particular market. Look for established pros who have been in business for some time, not newbies on Craigslist who are just starting out and jumping through hoops for pennies.

[amfoto1]

I think this could work for me as well. I will be doing sports photography part-time (i.e. weekends) from Feb next year.

My youngest son's soccer team go on tour every year for a weekend tournament.

I'm thinking along lines of Shooting fee as per Ernest. For example a £50 fee, which they then get in print credits. If they don't want it, then I don't shoot their kids.

My oldest son also goes on a rugby league tour later in the year and this could be an option for that as well.

mmm got me thinking. Thanks Ernest.

That's a tough way to sell it.

Best way with sports leagues is to get a contract with the organizers to do their "T&I" or "Team & Individual" portraits and be named as their official, exclusive photographer, with exceptional access, promotion and support. The T&I is a pretty much sure sell... In some schools or leagues the cost is even built into the fees the parents pay for their kid to participate. It's the "bread and butter" for the photographer. Shooting at the games is often not terribly productive until late in the season, when they get into playoffs, etc. Often parents don't buy any action shots until the season is over. But the T&I shots are prepaid, and at the very least there is a lot of peer pressure to boost sales. You pretty much need to set up a time with the organizer, take the team group shots, then the individuals one at a time, like a student/senior portrait session.

Anything less and it's going to be a very rough road.

[Ernst-Ulrich Schafer]

To everyone reading this thread:

"WE ARE NOT PHOTOGRAPHERS. WE ARE MARKETERS AND SELLERS OF PHOTOGRPAHIC SERVICES".

People spend on WINNERS!! So figure out how to be a winner and they will find you..... Quote by my friend Nathan.

Best to ya'll, Ernst

[daclozer]

I agree with pretty much everybody here. I would make three packages, a basic package for $100, a mid package for $200 and a top package for $300. Present the proofs and ask them which package works best or them. 80% of the time they will get the middle package, but some will get the top one. I would also throw in a GOLD package with a DVD put to thier choice of music and a few larger prints, etc.. As a sales professional for many years, I will tell you to always start a fair amount higher than you really want to end up at. You can always go down, but you can't go up easily. $100 is ridiculous for the nice work you do. I charge almost that as a sitting fee just to show up

[sevillafox]

I'm confused.....you spend all day with them AND give them all the digitals to get printed elsewhere for $100?

That's nuts!!!

[Karl Johnston]

Stanley - first of all I have to thank you.

I highly recommend every single photographer trying to manage a photo business do a cost analysis of their cost of doing business. In a recent study of my own business...whoooaaaa I'm really pricing way too low too!

I have to thank the guy who figures he's charging too low at 100 and something a day. It allowed me time to go back, check my own figures and expenses and long behold....I can't even afford 150 an hour.

When designing these things I realized how much of a balance you have to create by not pricing yourself out of your market ....and...not pricing yourself out of yours.

So do a cost analysis. What is a cost analysis? C.A.s are taking all of your living expenses, all of your information gathered from other photographers and then deciding how much money you want to make to pay yourself a wage. What I did was base my model off of photographers I saw online, and in larger cities close to me....WRONG.
The smaller your area - the newer you are - the less flexibility you have to offer those rates.

So for all of you charging less than $200 a day for a portrait session...you're ignorant.
Or rich.

Photography has become a luxury staple. The only way to survive doing it is either to become a volume based business...where your profit comes from high volumes of work...or you survive by hitting the high end market. You can just ignore your C.A. and pretend you don't have any expenses, but you can only do that for so long...or you have another job to support yourself.

Either hit the high end market or be destroyed by Jostens, Walmart and Sears ..because they can go real low, but they can't offer a personal touch and flair which you and I and a lot of other real photographers can. Rather than looking at them as successful models because they're huge corps. that handle a lot of volume of customers (albeit not clients) ...yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah....don't do that. Not that anyone was saying you were but just putting that out there.

Looking at my own books i'm pretty sure if you were to take in your living expenses you may actually be losing a lot of money, in theory for dollars not made that you should have, for pricing at $100 a day.

Another recommendation: get an accountant to set you up and don't hack it by yourself off of your limited book keeping experience. Otherwise you get nasty surprises like these when you really don't want them.

[jetcode]

I can tell you I pass a portrait shop over the years, several actually, that feature work in the same league as yours and I know the photographer is getting at least $500 for a single image, more likely several thousand for a few high quality family portraits. And I've been told of one photographer who gets $10k a session and is/was in high demand.

There are other less expensive photographers to go to but for the kind of effort you are putting in you should be getting top dollar. The downside to this approach is that it creates an exclusive club where only the well off get your eye and expertise. And so it goes.

[jetcode]

I would like to take your all day portrait workshop so I can learn about your work flow and how you get such great images ... just feeding the flames of good fortune.

[jetcode]

Karl I'm surprised you are not offering "northern lights" workshops once or twice a year to offset your expenses. I know some pro's who teach workshops in Greece, etc.

[Karl Johnston]

Karl I'm surprised you are not offering "northern lights" workshops once or twice a year to offset your expenses. I know some pro's who teach workshops in Greece, etc.
Already looked into it; costs are too high for insurance and there's a lot of really large resorts doing the same thing up here for a lot less than I could

[AmandaMarie]

Already looked into it; costs are too high for insurance and there's a lot of really large resorts doing the same thing up here for a lot less than I could

Hold on, I'll go pack my bags. Be there in a jiffy :)

[Karl Johnston]

Totally hijacking this poor guy's thread though..:lol: sorry..I'll PM you amanda.