New Softbox design, and research.

[Digital_zen]

Hi, guys I have been a member on the forums here for a while but have mostly been a reader, though I try to offer help and ask good questions as often as I can.
I am working on some new softbox designs and would like to share the first with you all, and perhaps seek funding (in the form of pre-ordering, so you would actually get one of the first models that I build).
The revolutionary thing about my new design is it's thin profile, the one that I have built is 20"X24"X less than 3" thick! The flash mounts on the bottom (redesigning now to flip the whole thing over, so that the flash is on top, in case of the box dropping) so the back is completely flat and the box can be hung flat against a wall, tree, etc. The front panel will eventually open out from the top, to create a huge bounce surface that will still create a nice pool of soft light directly in front of the box, while also bouncing some light up and around interior areas.
The mkI is made from a developing tray and Plexiglas, but the mkII will be made from modified tent type poles, and fabric and will break down to be more easily stored and carried.
The mkII should be lightweight enough to be comfortably hand held while shooting, making it another option for events and other on the fly situations.
Like I say this first one works nicely but I am in need of funds to move on to the mkII model, there will be different sizes from somewhere around 12"x12"x 2.5" to as large as I can make my Vivitar 285hv reach (with the use of reflective surfaces and baffles and maybe some other engineering trickery.
I have included a couple of shots so that you can kind of see what the thing looks like, and the type of light that it produces on location,(2nd shot) 285hv in the Light Panel as main and the sun as a hair light (this was actually a shot from a paid shoot that I did a few weeks ago, they loved the shots).
If any one is interested or would like to see more shots of the "Light Panel" or has an idea for a better name, please let me know.
You can message me here and I'll give you my email address.
Thanks,
Jeremy C.

[puzzle]

great Idea Jez, i don't know enough about engineering to know whether or not this will work as well as a conventional softbox but I think you may be onto something here with your "light panels" and I wish you the best of luck ... in regards to funding, I'm sorry but I think the shipping alone will wipe me out.:(

[bobbyz]

1. How is this better than current softbox available for the hot shoe flash, like apollo or the exybox?

2. How do you mount the hot shoe flash?

3. How even the coverage particularly when flash coming from the side?

4. How much light loss?

[dmward]

Add to above questions;

How even is light across the front panel?

The image of the couple has relatively sharp shadow edges which imply a small light source compared to them.

This image illustrates where I would find your softbox most useful.

This one the flash fill was provided by a 580EX on camera. Shadows are sharp edged, similar to yours. Would have liked to use a softer source camera left but it was too windy for my shoot through.

[Digital_zen]

Hi Bobby, you raise some good questions, I'll try my best to answer them, based on my experience with the mkI, though there will be significant changes made in the mkII model to cause the answers to these questions to be quite different. :-)
1. This unit will be very thin compared to the lighting surface, the mkI is less than 3 inches thick, which will most likely remain to be about the same though might could a bit thinner with the mkII. While the mkI is a bit heavy, being constructed from thick PVC type plastic and Plexiglas, very rugged but heavy.
2. Right now the mount is basically a slide in type hole in the bottom, with a bit of plastic to spin down over the flash head to keep it from sliding back out. This will have to be revised based on other types of flash heads as the 285 has a gel-holder/Fresnel lens piece built in at the front of the flash head so it works quite well (has never fallen out). The mkII will have a tension-cradle type mount, with elastic and Velcro, and the frame of the box will actually have pieces that surround the flash head, and hold it firmly in place.
3. The coverage seems to be somewhat limited but can be improved through baffles, internal bounce strips and the use of a more reflective surfaces (I plan to re purpose windshield sun shade material, the crinkled chrome kind) in certain areas and possibly internal light focusing Fresnel lenses to pull more light into the stubborn areas.
4. I've not done tests yet, but it seems to be around 2-2.5 stops. Again this number will improve with the mkII I hope to get it to around 1 stop with the more reflective material and intensification of the light, through focusing.
I hope this answers your questions and I will do exposure tests soon, though I would really rather hold off as the numbers will not line up at all across the mkI and mkII specs.

[Digital_zen]

David, I actually answered question 3 above as if that was what was being asked, if not Bobby please let me know.

[dmward]

I like the idea of a shallow large light modifier for use with speedlites.
For my purposes it has to have even lighting across its front panel since that is the effective light source.
Also, absorbing more than about a stop to a stop and 1/4 is stealing too much light.

Using the HSS feature on the Canon Speedlites is a significant benefit outside, but that also reduces effective light output. A modifier that steals too much becomes worthless.

And, without the HSS TTL benefit, its just as easy to use a more powerful source. i.e. QFlash or AB with battery pack.

Keep working on this, just wanted you to understand what would motivate me to buy.

[J Kacey]

I'm curious how much funding you are proposing each prospective buyer send you?
When will you be sending them the finished product?

[Digital_zen]

J. I'd say a decent starting price for these would be around $200 US for a 20"x24" and the first buyers could expect to receive a finished product within 8 weeks. That time would of course drastically decrease once I build the first one or two and do my tests and refinements with those.

[TMR Design]

It seems that the problem with designs like this is that the light isn't even and the falloff is rather rapid from the actual light source to other parts of the box. In a way this is a similar design with a similar problem that the Ray Flash has in terms of a hot spot and rapid falloff.

Are you planning on engineering something internally that will reflect or distribute the light more evenly? If so that's quite an undertaking. More than likely the best way to approach it would be to have a secondary flash on the other short side of the box but it's still going to take more than that to even things out.

I don't mean to rain on your parade but this is the eternal problem with designs like this and the reason why we don't see modifiers like this except for the fluorescent devices. Interfit makes a flat panel integrated light and modifier that produces very soft light but it's expensive and small.

[TMR Design]

4. I've not done tests yet, but it seems to be around 2-2.5 stops. Again this number will improve with the mkII I hope to get it to around 1 stop with the more reflective material and intensification of the light, through focusing.


That's far too much light to lose and the falloff is too rapid to really be useful, in my opinion. Not to mention the high price.

If I were you I wouldn't be so eager to sell and ship this design before you worked out the bugs and came up with something much more efficient that produced even light. I just assume set up an umbrella before using a device like this.

Sorry.

[Digital_zen]

The mkI is basically a mock-up anyone who buys one will get the cloth over frame type mkII. And yes I will be working with focusing and baffle devices inside the box to produce an even light across the front surface, which will be much more transparent than the plexi used in the mkI.

[TMR Design]

The mkI is basically a mock-up anyone who buys one will get the cloth over frame type mkII. And yes I will be working with focusing and baffle devices inside the box to produce an even light across the front surface, which will be much more transparent than the plexi used in the mkI.

All well and good but $200 for a mockup with bugs, even if they receive the next version for free. I don't know man. It doesn't sound good to me and I wouldn't be selling these until you had a real version that worked as it should.

Sounds like you're jumping the gun and overcharging for a device that hasn't been engineered properly. Seriously, why not make something that really works as it should? And your profit margin is through the roof or you're just asking others to fund research and development for you.

[NaKiD EyE]

J. I'd say a decent starting price for these would be around $200 US for a 20"x24" and the first buyers could expect to receive a finished product within 8 weeks. That time would of course drastically decrease once I build the first one or two and do my tests and refinements with those.

umm ouch. sorry but realistically speaking you would be lucky for someone to buy an unfinished product at that price or at any price for that matter...

[NaKiD EyE]

and a developing tray? lol i can just see this thing breaking on it's first location shot. my softboxes fold and are easy to travel with... this one not so much. So that makes the size benefit useless imo.

[Seanzky]

Are you planning on engineering something internally that will reflect or distribute the light more evenly? If so that's quite an undertaking. More than likely the best way to approach it would be to have a secondary flash on the other short side of the box but it's still going to take more than that to even things out.

I don't mean to rain on your parade but this is the eternal problem with designs like this and the reason why we don't see modifiers like this except for the fluorescent devices. Interfit makes a flat panel integrated light and modifier that produces very soft light but it's expensive and small.

This is also something I noticed with the design. I don't want to sound like a jerk but you'd have to have a strong background in highly advanced aerospace engineering to have knowledge and access to materials that can be as reflective as your design proposes. Okay, maybe I exaggerated a bit there but you get the idea. I don't think this is impossible but it's going to take a lot of research and a lot more than 8 weeks.

Before you spend any money on any windshield sun reflector, you can just try aluminum foil or aluminum foil tape instead. But like I said above, as reflective as that might be, they will not be able to carry the light throughout the panel evenly. Not only is the front panel eating up too much light and falling off quickly, it also does this in the direction the light is traveling inside the panel.

Like Rob, I also thought of the Ray Flash.

[Seanzky]

The mkI is basically a mock-up anyone who buys one will get the cloth over frame type mkII. And yes I will be working with focusing and baffle devices inside the box to produce an even light across the front surface, which will be much more transparent than the plexi used in the mkI.

I'm curious how you use Plexiglas inside the box. Are they in strips standing vertically, parallel to the light source?

[Seanzky]

umm ouch. sorry but realistically speaking you would be lucky for someone to buy an unfinished product at that price or at any price for that matter...

Also, new products are generally sent out to beta testers for free. I know that's hard to swallow but to have people raving about a new product, you'd have to have the finished piece ready for testing. Charging $200 for a beta version will be hard to pull off.

[Erik_L]

you guys are brutal. OP, a little anxious to sell? I would have worked out the bugs and then posted pics with great results. I know that people like to probe the "market" and get an idea of whether their stuff is buyable, but not before it's completed.

[Digital_zen]

On the mkI the plexi is the front diffusion material, and Mylar mirrors come to mind for close to 1:1 reflectivity, weight and durability. The light distribution refining process would involve a very basic set-up of shooting images of the box at a high aperture to see where the light is falling off, and getting more light to that spot. I will most likely employ Fresnel type lenses to focus the light into dark corners and angles in the back (bounce surface) to get the light to the front panel in a fairly even pattern.
Also like I have said before, the developing tray version is just a mock-up to see if it would work at all, and it does. The next version will be a collapsible frame and cloth cover with baffles, focusers, and angled bounce panels all built right in.
While $200 might seem like a lot for a softbox, but this would actually be better than a normal softbox and as such paying more for a better product should not be outside realistic expectations.
LOL, I understand where everyone is coming from Erik. As to why so eager to sell, I need money, I have pretty much hit a roadblock here of not being able to afford the mkII build with the improvements I have in mind, that's all.

[Erik_L]

makes sense to me. If I were an eager photographer with a few bones to spare, I would buy it just for the sake of trying something different. I currently have no diffusers other than an omni bounce and some foam.

good luck, maybe it will work out perfectly.

[TMR Design]

I'd work everything out before describing it as a better product or a proposed selling price. You're describing all the design features and changes that are about to happen but they aren't in place, you haven't done adequate testing and regardless of it being 'better', the price is astronomically too high. What's going to be better about it than a 24" square box that man of us use on a daily basis that produces very soft light, sets up and folds down in about 10 seconds and cost no more than $50.

I'm sorry to say that the sample image you've posted doesn't demonstrate anything that would make me want to buy one. Aside from the underexposure, I'm not seeing anything that I can't produce with a number of inexpensive portable light modifiers.

You are so far ahead of yourself and way too eager to bring something to market that's just not nearly ready.

Regarding Erik thinking we are being brutal. I don't agree. We are being realistic and no more critical of this product than any other product we see and review around here. I certainly wouldn't want to take money out of someone's pocket but I think we also have a responsibility to make recommendations to others so they don't waste money or buy into products that don't impress us or seem worth the expense.

Sorry if that rubs people's feathers the wrong way but I just don't see it.

[Seanzky]

On the mkI the plexi is the front diffusion material, and Mylar mirrors come to mind for close to 1:1 reflectivity, weight and durability. The light distribution refining process would involve a very basic set-up of shooting images of the box at a high aperture to see where the light is falling off, and getting more light to that spot. I will most likely employ Fresnel type lenses to focus the light into dark corners and angles in the back (bounce surface) to get the light to the front panel in a fairly even pattern.
Also like I have said before, the developing tray version is just a mock-up to see if it would work at all, and it does. The next version will be a collapsible frame and cloth cover with baffles, focusers, and angled bounce panels all built right in.
While $200 might seem like a lot for a softbox, but this would actually be better than a normal softbox and as such paying more for a better product should not be outside realistic expectations.
LOL, I understand where everyone is coming from Erik. As to why so eager to sell, I need money, I have pretty much hit a roadblock here of not being able to afford the mkII build with the improvements I have in mind, that's all.

Mirrors also crossed my mind but how would that fit in the collapsible second version you're proposing?

Erik, we're not brutal. Lol. If anything our questions and concerns can help push the development.

[Digital_zen]

Thanks Erik, I am confident that I can and will overcome the problems inherent with this type of design.
Sean, I agree no one's being brutal, and of course the questions posed here will all be taken into consideration and likely used in the build process. The mirrors (if needed at all) will be Myalr plastic and will be attached to the back surface on the angled pieces, the cloth cover for the frame will all be one piece and will probably fold down as opposed to crushing or bunching down into a ball. I'm hoping the whole thing will be flat enough to fit into the space of a laptop in a camera bag, but the larger ones might need to be tied onto the outside of a bag.

[tetrode]

The Mk. I version is conceptually identical to any number of DIY strip light projects such as this:

http://www.diyphotography.net/the-diy-strip-light

and this:

http://texxas.wordpress.com/2009/01/15/diy-strip-light-light-modifier/

It's difficult enough trying to even out light distribution in a strip box. Doing it in a 20" x 24" box illuminated by a single 285HV peering through a hole in one edge might require assistance from Caltech.

Dave F.

[J Kacey]

What it seem like you are going for is a Speedlight version of a (Lasolite Hilite) (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/478588-REG/Lastolite_LL_LB8857_HiLite_Chromakey_Background_.h tml)

Take the time... Do the research. Make sure you are not infringing on their patent.
Speaking from my experience even a very basic product will cost you thousands and thousands of dollars to bring to market. Just a simple injection mold can cost 20 to 50 grand.

If you think you have a product that is truly "revolutionary" find a investor....Do not come to a forum and ask people to send you money for a product that is not reality.
I do applaud you for your enthusiasm. I think your intentions are in the right place, but slow down, do the research, do not share your idea's in a public forum.

How much time and money do you think PCB has wasted announcing the Einstein/Max before it was reality? The man hours alone for customer service to take the flood of calls on a daily basis has got to be huge. His Cyber Commander was to be the first RF controller for studio flashes. I think at least two companies beat his product to market and many are right behind. Had he not said a word he would have had his products on the market and it would have took many many months or years for others to follow.
I've seen in forums were he has got a bad name in some peoples eyes because of this.....

Take this with a grain of salt. Just my opinion

[NaKiD EyE]

and "mkI" "mkII" is a canon thing... i suggest something more universal.

[Digital_zen]

OK well thanks for the help you guys. I guess I do need to just collect the parts and build a few of these first just to better show what I'm talking about, just trying to share ideas and maybe get a little cash flow going.
I don't think I'll need an injection mold, maybe a heat gun and some wooden chocks to bend a few of the plates for the back, but nothing quite so elaborate or expensive as a $50,000.00 piece.
As to the price being "astronomically" high, what would you guys suggest? If it works right, I don't think they should sell for the same thing traditional SBs sell for. Am I just remedial in thinking that people should pay more for a Honda than a Yugo, and should meet the market head on price for price for decent SBs in the sizes that I will build?
I will try to think of a different version naming method. How about v.1.0 and v.1.2 or BD I and BD II for build one and two ?
I might just make the whole thing open source and not even worry about patents and such, but of course I would still take help in the form of small unmarked bills. xD
No I'm not really trying to rob anyone, I just want to create, you guys should see my plastic ice-cream tub ringflash for pop-up. I searched the webz pretty well before building it, I couldn't find any one who had made a ringflash or ringlight for their pop-up flash, so I just built one, works great though it eats light like something from Sesame Street. Here's a couple of shots done with the "ghetto trash-ringflash".
Just because no one has done it so far, does not mean that it can not be done.