First paid job - OVERWHELMED!!!

[roanjohn]

WOW!!! I am really not prepared for this!!! I finally had the chance to shoot formal portraits of the kids in a dance studio........I didn't charge for the ****ting fee but I charged for packages ranging from 25-100 USD (Depending on how much prints they ordered etc....) First off, I don't know if I should print out a big contact sheet or I should post it on the internet..................In the end, I decided to post on the internet.........

CHECK IT OUT HERE (http://www.pbase.com/roanjohn/cynthia_king_dance_formal_portraits)

How did I do?? Is this okay?? Now how do I process the orders!!!?? AAARGGHHH!!!

I need some advice on how all you pros handle this type of work. At the moment, I am definitely overwhelmed...........

Thanks :-)

Ro1

[MTalley]

First off, I'm not a pro, so forgive me for jumping in. But, the first thing I noticed off the bat is that the standing poses filled the frame from top to bottom in many cases. This will pose an interesting problem if someone orders an 8x10, where you will be cropping 1/6th of the length of the picture to get the proportions right.

From the other side of the fence, as a parent of a child that used to take dance lessons and as a person whose mother used to run a dance studio, the big (C) symbol very much interferes with the pictures as a whole. I understand your reasoning for the placement. However, at least for me, the pose as a whole involves not only the face, but the costume as well.

Your proofs are displayed in a small enough format that not much of anyone is going to benefit by downloading them and printing them out on their HP all-in-one 3-color printer at home. I think a more discrete use of the copyright symbol, maybe in the upper left-hand corner, would benefit the viewing experience for the parents.

Just one man's opinions.

[MDJAK]

Ro, I think you did a great job. That sure is a big responsibility to take on.

Good luck.

[LadyHawk]

First off, I'm not a pro, so forgive me for jumping in. But, the first thing I noticed off the bat is that the standing poses filled the frame from top to bottom in many cases. This will pose an interesting problem if someone orders an 8x10, where you will be cropping 1/6th of the length of the picture to get the proportions right.

From the other side of the fence, as a parent of a child that used to take dance lessons and as a person whose mother used to run a dance studio, the big (C) symbol very much interferes with the pictures as a whole. I understand your reasoning for the placement. However, at least for me, the pose as a whole involves not only the face, but the costume as well.

Your proofs are displayed in a small enough format that not much of anyone is going to benefit by downloading them and printing them out on their HP all-in-one 3-color printer at home. I think a more discrete use of the copyright symbol, maybe in the upper left-hand corner, would benefit the viewing experience for the parents.

Just one man's opinions.

I think these are good points to consider. You did a great job Ro... cute little subjects, for sure.

[MTalley]

In all of my previous message, I forgot to add that, overall, I think you did a really great job, too.

[blinking8s]

looks slick, parents will eat that stuff up...nice

ive done some ghetto orders, i just left contact sheets out for parents to thumb through right there, cash if im working solo, flat fee per photo or a set package if they want multiples.

[roanjohn]

...........This will pose an interesting problem if someone orders an 8x10, where you will be cropping 1/6th of the length of the picture to get the proportions right.

.............., the big (C) symbol very much interferes with the pictures as a whole. I understand your reasoning for the placement..............

Thanks for the comments............the tight crops were really a matter of lack of space. I was literally working in a hallway near a window where all the kids and the parents are sitting around and coming in.........however, for 8x10 prints, I will probably print it with a white border to not amputate any body parts.

............As for the big C, I tried to make it not as distracting as possible......but unfortunately, I heard from the owner of the school how some parents have actually taken my photographs from my website and printed them at home.....so I decided to put big watermarks on each image.

:-)

Ro1

[roanjohn]

MDJAK, Ladyhawk and Mtalley - THANKS for the encouragement. I haven't shown the parents yet so I don't know how they would react.............I have my fingers crossed though.

Ro1

[roanjohn]

looks slick, parents will eat that stuff up...nice

ive done some ghetto orders, i just left contact sheets out for parents to thumb through right there, cash if im working solo, flat fee per photo or a set package if they want multiples.

How big are your contact sheets?? 8x10?? Let me know..................

Ro1

[Curtis N]

Dark-skinned subjects wearing white -- Quite a challenge to expose properly, and I think you nailed it. Great job!

[roanjohn]

Dark-skinned subjects wearing white -- Quite a challenge to expose properly, and I think you nailed it. Great job!

:D THANKS!!! I was actually worried when I initially saw the background..........but I used manual the whole time to keep my exposure under control.

Ro1

[S230]

First off, I'm not a pro, so forgive me for jumping in. But, the first thing I noticed off the bat is that the standing poses filled the frame from top to bottom in many cases. This will pose an interesting problem if someone orders an 8x10, where you will be cropping 1/6th of the length of the picture to get the proportions right.
I have to agree with MTalley with the cropping. I had learned this the hard way because certain times when I wanted to do something more creative such as putting a logo up top or bottom, I am restricted by the lack of room. I now try to leave some space and if I need to I can always crop out afterwards.

Nice shots though. :)

[GenEOS]

RoanJohn,

Your shots are nice and very sellable. A few have some lighting hotspots, but overall they are great. I noticed the kids seem relaxed and in good spirits, lending good smiles and feeling in the shots...like this one: http://www.pbase.com/roanjohn/image/44773808

As previously stated, when selling images, you need to leave room for cropping all aspect ratios.
Enough has been said about that.

As for tips on sales. Selling to the parents can be the toughest part. Depending on your clients, they can be great and not so great experiences. Here are a few off the top of my head. Strictly my opinion...

1.) Start your own website, even if your pics are hosted elsewhere.
IMHO, it projects professionalism, and trust. Plus it is easy for your clients to find you on the web.
This would also be a good place to list info about yourself, pricing/ordering info and examples of your work.

(Preparation of the images, sales, printing and mailing, updating websites etc. are time consuming)

2.) Price your prints as if the client will only purchase from you one time. Discount to repeat customers and large orders.

3.) I have found that many clients will order the smallest print you offer or the smallest price package. Considering the time/effort you have put into your work, factor the cost into your prints. Many start-up photogs under price their work, not factoring in the time involved in making it...some only see their sales as selling a print.

4.) You could cut your prep time by placing images on an on-line hosting printing website and let them do the printing and mailing for you. But, that would mean not post processing your images or having to post process all of you images. Again, Time = Money.

5.) If you do good work, in a timely fashion, and treat you customers right, they will be very greatful and purchase from you time and again.

6.) Un-authorized web swiping..... You will not defeat the person trying to snatch an image if they are in the smallest bit intelligent. You will find clients that are just plain ignorant to the business of photography. They dop not see a value in the work, they only see a print or a file, they think the camera does all the work. Because of those people, the big copyright symbol gets put on all the work. It is the bad part about putting images on-line. This hurts your clients that appreciate the work and like to see un-cluttered proofs.
Sizing these files is key, make sure you have just enough resolution to look good on screen, no more. Post a message on your sight about copyright and your views on it...point clients there when you needs to...nicely and with courtesy.

These are just a few off the top of my head....

[GenEOS]

Oh yeah, one more thing. On most of your shots, you have a nice white background. With a few clicks of Photoshop CS2, you can size your print to 8x10 and fill the bars easily with the cloning tool.... I have done this on a few drag race shots where i cropped too close as the car came at me. For a portrait this is acceptable practice. All is not lost.

[roanjohn]

GenEOS - all wonderful tips!!! Thanks a lot!!! :-)

I will probably have my own website up and running soon..........we'll see how much I get charged for that. I know somebody who is a graphic designer.......maybe we can trade services ;-)

And will probably have my own business card too............:-)

This is actually kinda exciting........

Ro1

[GenEOS]

RoanJohn,
Just remember, that by you setting a standard of quality and pricing that is in-line with other photographers, it benefits us all and especially those starting up in the business. The pitfall to some who start up, is not seeing the value in their work and under pricing other photographers. By discounting prices because they are part time photogs/hobbyist, they hurt the industry.
I am in no way assuming you are doing this, I am just relaying the thoughts of many photogs who do this for a living and go hungry competing with people giving their work away.

I question other photogs in my area to make sure my prices are in-line with theirs, competitive, while still being within the range I consider affordable to my clients.

[jimtfoto]

Roanjohn:
Very nice shots ... I'm behind you 100% with the copyright marks.
Recently for shoots, I have been making 8.5x11 contact sheets in Photoshop (either 72 or 100 dpi) and saving them as PDFs (with no-printing option accessed via Security Settings). I send those to clients and they email me back with the file numbers and size of prints. I then invoice them and, once I receive a cheque, I send the prints.
Cheers, and keep up the good work,

jim

[roanjohn]

RoanJohn,
Just remember, that by you setting a standard of quality and pricing that is in-line with other photographers, it benefits us all and especially those starting up in the business. The pitfall to some who start up, is not seeing the value in their work and under pricing other photographers. By discounting prices because they are part time photogs/hobbyist, they hurt the industry.
I am in no way assuming you are doing this, I am just relaying the thoughts of many photogs who do this for a living and go hungry competing with people giving their work away.

I question other photogs in my area to make sure my prices are in-line with theirs, competitive, while still being within the range I consider affordable to my clients.

Hmmm.............that is actually one thing I didn't do...........

I kinda priced my goods by looking at ofoto and snapfish.........then double or tripling for what they charge on a certain size :confused:

For example: An 8x10, I charge $10.

Ro1

[roanjohn]

Roanjohn:
Very nice shots ... I'm behind you 100% with the copyright marks.
Recently for shoots, I have been making 8.5x11 contact sheets in Photoshop (either 72 or 100 dpi) and saving them as PDFs (with no-printing option accessed via Security Settings). I send those to clients and they email me back with the file numbers and size of prints. I then invoice them and, once I receive a cheque, I send the prints.
Cheers, and keep up the good work,

jim

I will only do that if the parents request a physical contact sheet...........otherwise, I'll probably stick to the web for now. Good idea though for some really specialize work (i.e. WEDDINGS!!! :p)

Ro1

[crc_408]

PDFs can also be used to view proofs online.
A direct URL to the .pdf file can be given to the parent(s) and allow them to view and zoom in/out to view the pics directly. And as Jim has mentioned, you can apply various security restrictions.

[blinking8s]

How big are your contact sheets?? 8x10?? Let me know..................

Ro1

A4 midrange photo paper, usually a 8x10ish layout on it, but if no samples are on site, id prob go ahead and bit the bullet and print on higher grade paper with better quality with fewer thumbs. If not posting to the net for sales we usually sell on site with a dye-sub right there...results are "eh" to me, but parents never have complained

[Huckaback Photo]

Roan
I think your shots are great and I wish you well with any sales etc.
do not under price your images.
do consider how they are printed ( I think to a on line print house as the prints would then be traditional prints and will last better than inkjet.
You have some good stuff on PBase, which I also use,
So a thought for you to consider, what you have is photos of young children and not all parents would want you to put these on the web, you might think about a password protected Gallery / folder and issue the password to parents only, some hand out cards or info at the venue when taking, above all check with organiser of event.
sad to say it but here in uk you just need to be aware of todays issues about photographing kids in the street etc.
and yet if we look back at the great photographers over the early years some of the best shots were indeed candid street scenes with children playing etc.
I do realise your shots are in no way candids, in fact all look vary good quallity.
Congrats and stick with it.

Martin (Huckaback Photo)
my Gallery
http://www.pbase.com/huckaback_photo

[roanjohn]

PDFs can also be used to view proofs online.
A direct URL to the .pdf file can be given to the parent(s) and allow them to view and zoom in/out to view the pics directly. And as Jim has mentioned, you can apply various security restrictions.

Hmmm..............I just realized that I am not too familiar with this............gotta do my research................I thought Jim was talking about a physical 8x10 contact sheet that he mails out...........DUH!!! :confused:

Ro1

[roanjohn]

Thanks Blinking !!!

Martin - Great idea on password protecting the galleries :-) I will implement that once the parents start to see the pages.

Ro1

[blue_max]

A couple of thoughts.
You might be better just selecting the very best and giving less choice (more chance of duplicates).
Making the pics 72dpi and sharpening for the web would make them look pretty rubbish at any size larger. You are in the business of quality, so you are not losing anything by them printing out a poor quality screen grab. It might generate some interest and send people your way.
Perhaps you can get some candid shots when they are dancing which might be fun.

Well done on getting the commission! Hope it leads onto other things for you.

Graham

[GenEOS]

I would dis-agree with Blue_Max and agree with Bloo_Dog, some people are happy with a low res print, especially if it is free. Why give that to them. You need all these type people to buy at a minimum your lowest package or print....

[blue_max]

I would dis-agree with Blue_Max and agree with Bloo_Dog, some people are happy with a low res print, especially if it is free. Why give that to them. You need all these type people to buy at a minimum your lowest package or print....

They probably wouldn't care about having the copyright symbol slapped over it either! or buy your wares at ANY price, so why stress it – it won't cost you anything. These days, most people have got some form of digital camera (used to be called a phone!) and can take bad pictures of their little treasures all day long. By showing them quality, you may pursuade them that it's worth paying for a really good shot.
It's a judgement call you have to make when you meet the people involved. The fact that you were invited must give you a positive vibe.

There's no right and no wrong. I took a shot of a little kid and sent it to the parent via email. They loved it and sent it round the world. Now I am lined up for a reasonable commission as she works at a firm of barristers. Result.

Graham

[mkh]

RoanJohn,
Just remember, that by you setting a standard of quality and pricing that is in-line with other photographers, it benefits us all and especially those starting up in the business. The pitfall to some who start up, is not seeing the value in their work and under pricing other photographers. By discounting prices because they are part time photogs/hobbyist, they hurt the industry.
.

Hmm... I wonder if the forum could establish some sort of standards agreement that we could all agree to adhere to? This could benefit us all and help stop pricing from going down.

Any ideas? Think people would agree to it?

[roanjohn]

Thanks BLOO!!!

Now I feel that I priced too low.............BOO!!! Bit its cool...........It's my first event...............and so far, the response from the school owner has been very positive.............in fact, from some of the parents too!!! So I am glad about that :-)

Now its time to talk money.............I'll keep you guys updated on the final profit :p

Ro1

[roanjohn]

A couple of thoughts.
You might be better just selecting the very best and giving less choice (more chance of duplicates).
Making the pics 72dpi and sharpening for the web would make them look pretty rubbish at any size larger. You are in the business of quality, so you are not losing anything by them printing out a poor quality screen grab. It might generate some interest and send people your way.
Perhaps you can get some candid shots when they are dancing which might be fun.

Well done on getting the commission! Hope it leads onto other things for you.

Graham

I really don't think the watermark is that obtrusive.................

And I actually just spoke to a parent who wants to order a print of every single pose..............but I told her they all look similar.............and she said NO!!! They are all different in thier way...............So OK!!! More orders for me :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ro1

[roanjohn]

Hmm... I wonder if the forum could establish some sort of standards agreement that we could all agree to adhere to? This could benefit us all and help stop pricing from going down.

Any ideas? Think people would agree to it?

Good IDEA!!! That would've been a good baseline for me when I priced my prints.

Ro1

[roanjohn]

As I'm typing this message............I just got my first order!!!! YIPEEEEEEE!!!!

I feel good!!! :-)

Ro1

[R1 Kid]

Good luck roanjohn! Your off to a good start. I know enough has been said about setting a good price for the photos. My most recent experience with this is: I priced some church friends a very good price on some photos. I made enough to cover my time and matterials and be happy with myself (enough to get the Spyder2 Pro software and put some in the bank). I also had enough room to cover any mistakes. Example nobody noticed the little girls nose had some drainage going on. I didn't, the parents didn't, my wife didn't, nobody. Till we got the pics back. She wanted a 10x13 of her also so when I ordered the 10x13 I ordered her some free wallets to make her happy. Believe me she was happy.

My whole point to all that is. Charging enough for the photos made the difference between her being ok, and her being very happy because I had room to suprise her with some freebies. A very very small price to pay for a repeat client base.

Hey man you make me want to go stir up some ballerina business. Great photos, and again Good Luck!

[mkh]

BlooDog - quite posting replies and go finish your story.

[Muunstruk]

First of all - you did a great job! Love the photos and with the cloning tool you can add to the top and bottom as you please, so size is no problem.
Totally agree with you on big C in the middle of the picture.
Not only is you money on the line with folks who steal your work online, but also YOUR REPUTATION!
They rip you off, make cheap BAD prints with the 72 dpi web resolution on a cheap printer and then tell folks YOU took the photographs.
I have seen my work butchered like this and this really hurts you all the way around.

Keep up the good work,

Renate

PS: Be careful with the pdf idea, I with my Mac have a way around this... though I won't tell... ;-)

[dkord]

Hands and feet. You can get away with it with kids but if this was a semi pro or pro dance troop they would have a fit. You talk to a dancer, especially ballet and one of the things they comment on is how the hands are posed, the other is the position of the feet: You can't crop them out.
The overall lighting was good. The copy right in the middle is ok, depending on who you're talking to; I would of given it more opacity, it looks too heavy handed.

[roanjohn]

R1 - Thanks!!! You've actually inspired me..........I gave the first one to order a free 8 x 10!!!! :-)

Bloo - Great idea!!! hahahahahaha!!!

Renate - So true!!! Most definitely wouldn't want my pics butchred like that!!! Now this even reaffirms my decision to put those big watermarks.

dkord - will watch for hands and feet in the future..............most definitely. The copyright logo was actually from a Scott Kelby book...............so he's to blame for the heavy handedness of it. :p

UPDATE: I finished printing my first order..............and I must say, it looks GREAT!!! I hope the mom will be happy when she sees it. She ordered 2x 4by6, 10x 5by7, 2x 8by10 and a wallet.............a grand total of 74 USD!!!! hAHAHAHAHA!!!

Now.............how do I pack this thing?? Gotta buy some Manila envelopes tomorrow.

Thanks a lot for all the tips guys and gals!!! I've learned so much from this forum and from all those who have PM'ed me (you know who you are).



Ro1

[Andy_T]

Roan,

great job :D

I think the parents will really enjoy the shots!

Best regards,
Andy

[Ikinaa]

I can see blue_max's point of view. The huge copyright symbol might strike some folks the wrong way. A discreet copyright notice in the corner will convey a different image of the photographer. i think that when Roanjohn moves up in the ranks he might want to rethink the large copyright symbol. If you're really making money, the loss of a hundred over the course of a year won't make that much difference.

My attitude has changed through the years regarding image theft. I have become quite cynical about the expressed intentions of customers. In the last two years as a wedding photographer, I got fewer and fewer reprint orders because of the ubiquitous scanner.

While I can see that a 72 dpi image doesn't amount to much, there's a principle involved.

One thing which I suggest is that the photographer charge a nominal fee which is refunded with the order. (A couple of bucks). That way, the person who can live with a low res image will pay for it.

To show the quality of the pics, why not put one or two large pictures on your website, pictures that show the quality of your work, picture that everyone would download immediately and print out and have a good quality, but these pictures should be pictures no one wants, because they're not pictures of the kids in this class. Leave the pictures of the class with the copyright sign (nice work btw) and in low quality.
That way the parents will think : 'Hey, these pics (I'm not interested) are really good, I'll buy them (those I'm interested in)...'
Hope you get my point.
Anyone thinks that's a good idea?

I find the discussion interesting, maybe one day I'll be there too.
My daughter (6 years) is making taekwondo, last time, I took some shots of my daughter and immediately one of the parents I know came over and said 'If you got shots of my son, I'll take them'. So I took a few shots of her son (3200ISO, ef75-300f/11 (sharpest), 1/80s, it was dark), neatimage, cropping. She was really happy.
Perhaps if I convinced myself of doing it for the cash (should get a better lens)...

[roanjohn]

ANDY - THanks!!!

Ikinaa - Great idea!!! I will grant this if one of the parents would request a full resolution image from me to print............However, I doubt very much that any of these parents have a decent photo printer that will truly give justice to Canon's CMOS sensor :-) BTW, good luck on the future purchase of the "better" lens.....hehe!!!

Ro1

[mkh]

ANDY - THanks!!!

............However, I doubt very much that any of these parents have a decent photo printer that will truly give justice to Canon's CMOS sensor

Ro1

That's not the only way to get your print. All they would have to do is save the image to a CD (or memory card) and take it to WalMArt for printing.


Didn't you already sell a package to one person. Consult with them about using the picture of their daughter as your large sample image. Perhaps even throw in an extra print in exchange for their permission.

[roanjohn]

That's not the only way to get your print. All they would have to do is save the image to a CD (or memory card) and take it to WalMArt for printing.


Didn't you already sell a package to one person. Consult with them about using the picture of their daughter as your large sample image. Perhaps even throw in an extra print in exchange for their permission.

I guess they can do that.........but WalMart prints are really crappy...........I've seen 'em...........

UPDATE: The first parent got her prints!!! She emailed me saying how happy she was..............she will show it to the other parents this weekend. I hope to get a bunch of orders (fingers crossed). :D

Ro1

[jacchess]

roanjohn - Great Job! My wife and I also have Dance Studio Portrait event tomorrow. It is going to be our 1st one. In addition to the portrait and group shots tomorrow, we have a follow-up portrait shoot and action shots scheduled for the 25th before and during their rehearsal recital. We too have learned a great deal from this forum. If interested, I can share packaging and pricing details we are using. I'm also very interested in developing some kind of website for our new photography business.

I would like to know what lense(s), lighting/strobes, and backdrops you used? Also, what camera settings worked for you? What kind of exsisting lighting did you have to work with?

Thanks and good luck!

[roanjohn]

roanjohn - Great Job! My wife and I also have Dance Studio Portrait event tomorrow. It is going to be our 1st one. In addition to the portrait and group shots tomorrow, we have a follow-up portrait shoot and action shots scheduled for the 25th before and during their rehearsal recital. We too have learned a great deal from this forum. If interested, I can share packaging and pricing details we are using. I'm also very interested in developing some kind of website for our new photography business.

I would like to know what lense(s), lighting/strobes, and backdrops you used? Also, what camera settings worked for you? What kind of exsisting lighting did you have to work with?

Thanks and good luck!

COOL!!! For the portraiture, I mainly usesd the XT and the 50 f1.4. The set-up was very simple...........a white paper backdrop set next to a big window..........and I used a silver reflector to bounce the light on the other side. My camera setting (if I remember correctly) was ISO 200 f2.8 and 1/350............on M mode.

For the recital (which I also shot a few weeks before), I mainly used the XT and the 85 f1.8.

Good luck!!! ANd please share your pricing and etc..........I would like to know how I did.

:-)

Ro1

[jacchess]

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info. Eventually we may have those lenses to work with too.

We did it!! Went much smoother than expected. I am so glad we made the parents prepay! Now for editing and processing. I can post pkg/pricing here or email you directly.

[roanjohn]

Thanks for the info. Eventually we may have those lenses to work with too.

We did it!! Went much smoother than expected. I am so glad we made the parents prepay! Now for editing and processing. I can post pkg/pricing here or email you directly.[/QUOTE]

You can post it here or you can PM me.................:D

Are you going to share the results????

Oui??

Ro1