Canon or Nikon...?

[RAW]

I am a Canon fan to death!!! but the thing is that the profesional photographer that I work with is using a Nikon d70 Camera. Now, I am fighting with him every day about what camera is better and He says that Nikon can do better because it has a better sensor and a better processor. I also got the same response from a 25 years profesional photographer that is working in J&R here in NY.

They claim that the photos out of the camera are best of that of Nikons because the sharpness is better, the detail is greatest in Nikon and the colors are more like they should be, and he said don't test on the monitor but on the prints...


Please help me how to prove that they are wrong and I am right...

Nikon D70 or Canon eos20D?


My best regards,
Artan

[twalker294]

The quality of the pictures from either camera is much more dependent on the quality of the lens used than on the camera itself. Both bodies are capable of excellent photos. Put a cheap lens on one and a high quality lens on the other and the high quality lens will win every time. Put high quality lenses on both and they will both produce pictures with excellent clarity, definition, sharpness, etc.

Cameras and lenses are just tools -- it is up to the photographer to create the art. I can't believe a "professional" photographer is arguing the merits of one brand vs. another. In the end it really doesn't matter.

Todd

[RAW]

The quality of the pictures from either camera is much more dependent on the quality of the lens used than on the camera itself. Both bodies are capable of excellent photos. Put a cheap lens on one and a high quality lens on the other and the high quality lens will win every time. Put high quality lenses on both and they will both produce pictures with excellent clarity, definition, sharpness, etc.

Cameras and lenses are just tools -- it is up to the photographer to create the art. I can't believe a "professional" photographer is arguing the merits of one brand vs. another. In the end it really doesn't matter.

Todd


Actualy, I am sorry not to add that in my post, the profesional photographer said word by word what you just said but he added that he has been using Nikon since the begining and he just won't change it with anything else, and from there I just added that I am using Canon and I wont' change so we have been having that conversation ever since. He is going to buy the D2x now.

But, the main problem I got is with the guy in J&R and I said the same things you just said to me, but he disagrees and I don't know how to convince him. He says Nikon has never failed him and he says that is not true with the other cameras.

Canon forever!!!

[Skip Souza]

Everything that Todd said plus this.
Best camera is a matter of personal preference.
To put it another way, it is a matter of faith :-)

[Longwatcher]

He may be absolutely right about Nikon as it applies to him, however, Canon produces better images out the camera for a lot of people. Everyones eyes are different and so what he sees coming out of a Nikon might actually look better to him, even if it doesn't to us.

I have heard that indeed Nikon produces better jpegs out of the camera then Canon DSLRs do. although for P&S Canon wins that one from what I have read and seen.

However, when we move to the realm of the RAW image, The potential results from Canon DSLR is superior to Nikon's RAW results. There are very few people who would disagree with the statement that Canon DSLRs seem to (or actually have) more dynamic range then Nikon DSLRs when shooting in RAW mode. Thus Canon's cameras give you more potential to work with a shot that otherwise would have been marginal because of the lighting or exposure situation (the first being nature's the second the photographer's fault usually)

As to sharpening, I have to give in-camera sharpening to Nikon, but I don't sharpen my shots in camera, I let my computer software sharpen my RAW images.

As to details, physics (a science) says that the 20D's sensor will produce more detail then the D70 and my 1DsMkII will produce more then a D2X, but if it makes the Nikonians feel better to not believe what can be measured that is their choice. Going back to sharpening, they may see the impression of more detail because of higher sharpening, but being a former image analyst with over 20 years experience, there is more detail in the higher pixel Canon DSLRs at the same ISO setting.

I have heard from some people that Nikons do produce a more film-like look to a print, but if you give the print to someone that has not used film before, strangely they tend to like the results from the Canon better because it has a cleaner look to it. So yes people who have used film a lot before will tend to like the look out the Nikon slightly more. But someone who hasn't will like Canon. Eventually there will be very few people other then some dedicated hobbiests who like the film look better. The colors also affect the film look that some people like.

Lastly and this is my personal opinion based on everything I have read to this date and believe*. In order. (also ignoring other manufacturers)

#1 Canon 1DsMkII
#2 Nikon D2X (only because of higher MP then 1DM2 and selectable for speed)
#3 Canon 1DM2
#4 Canon 20D
#5 Canon Rebel XT
#6 Canon 10D (although out of production it is still overall better then the D70)
#7 Nikon D70 (not sure if D70s should also go here or slightly above 10D)
It gets muddy below this point a lot.

Just my opinion, experience as an Imagery analyst and research.

*=I obviously also have a strong bias in favor of Canon, but suspect my opnion will hold water except for maybe 6 and 7.

[Rob612]

But, the main problem I got is with the guy in J&R and I said the same things you just said to me, but he disagrees and I don't know how to convince him. He says Nikon has never failed him and he says that is not true with the other cameras.

Canon forever!!!

As other stated, its a matter of several parameters: personal preference, feeling with the camera, different eyes and consequent color/detail perception etc... IMHO, basically all the medium-high to high end DSLR will perform great. The lens is of course the part that has the strongest impact on the final result, from a technical POV.

Moreover, again as someone else said, if this type of comparison is made on the jpegs out of the camera, it doesn't really makes too much sense to me. RAW is the only reasonable way to judge the real capabilities of any digital camera.

The rest is art, and thats something that is not sold in stores :D Sure enough any Cartier-Bresson, Adams or whoever comes to mind can do with a throw away film camera much better than me with more or less 8K EUR worth in gear. Thats the only thing I'm really sure.

[lostdoggy]

When Nikon can engineer and manufactor their own sensor then they can really say they have the better DSLR. The Nikon D2x sensor is designed and manufacture by Sony. And, whos to say that Sony engineered the software for Nikon as well. So the Pro from J&R should say that Sony makes a better DSLR and Nikon makes better lenses. Then again that is just his own opinion. The fact of the matter is that most Sports Photographer still prefer the L lenses. That alone should say something.

[ScottE]

Why bother to argue with a NIkon addict. You already know they have no sense or they would be shooting Canon.

;<)

In my personal opinion it doesn't really matter what brand of camera is used. The skill of the photographer is most important. Any of the leading brands are more than capable of delivering great photos if you do your part.

Scott

[tim]

Both do a good job. Don't worry about debating a subject that can never be decided, instead choose a system based on the camera, the future potential, and the system of lenses and accessories, and go take some photos.

[ssim]

I'm surprised that this debate continues. It is almost religious, that is how many of feel about our choice of cameras. As skip put it, it is a matter of faith.

If I understand/statement the orginal question right it was that Nikon produced a sharper image out of camera. I had read some reviews that actually substantiated this. However, how important is that to the photographer. A newspaper photographer will value that alot. Someone doing work that has the time to post process, it is probably a nonissue so long as the sharpness can be attained in the processing.

Sharpness is a matter of personal taste to a point. There is always a level of sharpness that everyone agrees that the image is sharp. From there it can be quite subjective to what the "eye-of-the-beholder" views and considers sharp. I've seen some work that I though that photographer had gone overboard on the sharpnening but they felt it appropriate for their liking.

Both cameras are more than capable of producing images of comaparable quality. As has been said before, if you are going to compare make sure that things are on equal footing, ISO, shooting mode and most importantly lenses of comparable quality.

You could show me all kinds of nice work with the Nikon cameras. It still wouldn't make me switch.

[GenEOS]

Why does everyone want to poke the bear? Nikonians are Nikonians and much like religion, they will not see the light until they are re-born. There is no tech argument that will change a staunch Nikon shooter over to Canon. But just lend that Nikon shooter a Canon 1DsMK2 or 1DMK2 for a weekend and see what happens......Yes Jesus!!!!

[cecilc]

I'm surprised that this debate continues. ........
You could show me all kinds of nice work with the Nikon cameras. It still wouldn't make me switch.

Agree on both of those statements .... I've shot with Canon gear for most of my life, and I just wouldn't switch, either .... and people would not call me a very religious guy!

Over the past several years, I've heard of several newspapers switching from Nikon gear to Canon gear. I shoot regularly with another sports photographer who has shot with Nikon gear forever, and he says that if he didn't have as much money tied up in Nikon gear as he does, that he would opt for Canon - he says the metering is better in the Canon pro bodies. I've shot sports venues side-by-side with Nikon shooters from The Atlanta Journal-Constitution who've told me that they prefer Canon equipment and would switch in a heartbeat if given the choice. An "acquaintance" sports shooter just made a complete change from Nikon gear to a Canon 1D Mark II and some Canon glass .... I just got through shooting the state high school baseball finals. One of the other shooters out there with a Nikon saw my Mark II and said, "Yea ...if I had it to do over again, that's the camera I'd get."

But ... I can't say as I've talked to anyone or shot with anyone that has been shooting Canon but would prefer or has already made a change to Nikon ....

And maybe it's just for sports that these particular people prefer Canon over Nikon, I don't know. But that's the crowd I see most often, and the opinions I hear are from other sports shooters and PJ's .....

[CyberDyneSystems]

Mac Vs. PC... Same pointless arguments.. your not going to change anyones mind.

[fatrat]

I am a Canon fan to death!!! but the thing is that the profesional photographer that I work with is using a Nikon d70 Camera. Now, I am fighting with him every day about what camera is better and He says that Nikon can do better because it has a better sensor and a better processor. I also got the same response from a 25 years profesional photographer that is working in J&R here in NY.

They claim that the photos out of the camera are best of that of Nikons because the sharpness is better, the detail is greatest in Nikon and the colors are more like they should be, and he said don't test on the monitor but on the prints...


Please help me how to prove that they are wrong and I am right...

Nikon D70 or Canon eos20D?


My best regards,
Artan

Well i have a 20D i used to own a D70 really its as good as if not better then the 20D in every area except speed 5fps Vs 3fps and the 8megapixel Vs 6Megapixel of the D70 (mega pixel in not a huge differance!)
and thats all i will say at least i have own both i can say this with out being bias

you cant go wrong with either

[Andy_T]

Artan ...

it'S the old situation ... you won'd convince them, and they won't convince you.

Tastes differ, y'know ...

Best regards,
Andy

[Belmondo]

Mac Vs. PC... Same pointless arguments.. your not going to change anyones mind.

Even with solid factual arguments (and there are a few on both sides), these discussions have no potential for resolution. The real issues are dogmatic and not technical. If you're a Noink fan, Canon could produce a disposable 1Ds Mk3 for under $20, and you won't be impressed. (Canon devotees are just as strident in their irrationality). The reality is, once we make a commitment to a brand, we're generally hooked into a lifetime of devotion to it, and facts be damned.

[ed2day]

I personally know a professional photographer, a lifelong Nikon devotee, that made the switch to Canon. That's an expensive switch. There seem to me to be more going that direction. The Nikon diehard is more likly to be one that has used nothing but Nikon since the dawn of time. But I don't know which is better. Why argue? I've read about psychological studies that show how people will twist, distort, or just ignore incontrovertible evidence that challenges a deeply held belief. So no, you're not likely to change their mind. Although one of those pics of sports photographers lined up in rows of white lenses might add an arrow to your quiver.

[felix21685]

Mac Vs. PC... Same pointless arguments.. your not going to change anyones mind.

yeah but PC's are still mo betta' :) ok jk i like them better personally.

[KevC]

Just check out Canon's high ISO capabilities. Wowee, @ ISO800+ it absolutely blows the pants off the Sony CCD that's in Nikon's dSLRs.

Also, do consider that all Nikon's dSLRs (from the lowly D50s to the impressive D2X) has a 1.5x crop factor. Unlike Canon's lower end 1.6X to high end full frame. If you shoot long, you'd prefer Canon's 1.6x, if you need to go WIDE... Canon's the only way to go.

If you still shoot film, EF lenses go back on film cameras. There are only a few EF-S lenses that only work on the 20D/Digital Rebel (XT). I know, however, that Nikon has a bunch of Digital lenses, not sure if they can be mounted on old Nikon film bodies. Another thing to consider :)

All in all, these are the two best companies in the business. It's like Mercedes or BMW, Apple or PC, ATI or nVidia, Intel or AMD. You really can't go wrong with either, but for the reasons I stated above, I chose Canon :)

[cmM]

i was gonna start pointint out some things that are "factually" better on the canon end, but then i read Belmondo's post

...and facts be damned.
Amen!

[lostdoggy]

Just check out Canon's high ISO capabilities. Wowee, @ ISO800+ it absolutely blows the pants off the Sony CCD that's in Nikon's dSLRs.

Also, do consider that all Nikon's dSLRs (from the lowly D50s to the impressive D2X) has a 1.5x crop factor. Unlike Canon's lower end 1.6X to high end full frame. If you shoot long, you'd prefer Canon's 1.6x, if you need to go WIDE... Canon's the only way to go.

If you still shoot film, EF lenses go back on film cameras. There are only a few EF-S lenses that only work on the 20D/Digital Rebel (XT). I know, however, that Nikon has a bunch of Digital lenses, not sure if they can be mounted on old Nikon film bodies. Another thing to consider :)

All in all, these are the two best companies in the business. It's like Mercedes or BMW, Apple or PC, ATI or nVidia, Intel or AMD. You really can't go wrong with either, but for the reasons I stated above, I chose Canon :)

Actually, the D2x has a CMOS sensor not a CCD!!!
Mec & Bimmer are not the Best they're just overpriced for the pretentious label whores!!!

[felix21685]

i still wouldn't mind owning either a BMW or a Mercedes..heck ill take a VW :)

[grego]

The camera really doesn't matter if they are on the same levels. It's more the photographer than the body or the lens.

But regarding this question, "Nikon D70 or Canon eos20D?"

The 20D is in a higher level than the D70, so it's obviously going to be better. The one you compare to the D70 is the Rebel or Rebel XT. Nikon's one that comes closest to comparing to a a 20D would be the D100, although that was made to rival the 10D, so they are a little slow to come out with something new.

Both Nikon and Canon will give you good images if you know how to use the camera well.

[CyberDyneSystems]

Actually, the D2x has a CMOS sensor not a CCD!!!
Mec & Bimmer are not the Best they're just overpriced for the pretentious label whores!!!


Yes .. that was Nikon finally seeing the light and admitting that Canon was really on to something with there hoky CMOS stuff... :lol:

[KevC]

Mec & Bimmer are not the Best they're just overpriced for the pretentious label whores!!!

That's a pretty generalised statement. BMW has always been the benchmark for performance and luxury combined. Rev happy inline-6s, stiff structural integrity combined with RWD and 50:50 weight distribution makes them truly the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Personally I am not a fan of their designs, but I respect their quality and truly believe they live up to all the hype.

I am a Mercedes man myself. True, they don't make them as they used to, but I absolutely love the new design. Every time I sit in our '04 E320 I feel like I can be lulled to sleep. Even at high speeds there is minimal noise and she glides over bumps and weaves through traffic like they were clouds.

Granted, they are expensive, but European engineering and design always has been. If you want a car to get from point A or point B, an undistinguished Japanese 4banger can do that no problem. I'd even say that's the perfect commuter car, a Civic/Corolla. They are reliable and the body panels will fall off before the engine/drivetrain even hiccups. People buy different cars for different reasons. I'm not arguing that there *do* exist people who buy a Mercedes just because they think that'll make them cool. But no, we are not that kind of people.

I'm sorry, but your post was quite offensive. I don't know if you meant it as a joke... "What's the difference between a BMW and a Porcupine? The pricks are on the outside of a porcupine." but to say they are "overpriced for the pretentius label whores" is quite insulting.

And never had I said they were "best". I just said, like Nikon and Canon, they are the two that will never be decided which one is superior. I'm a Benz fan, my friends are BMW fans. You can't go wrong with either vehicles, but I believe it is a similar dispute.

[blinking8s]

I think the Canon vs Nikon is a very valid arguement, but there is no winner because it comes down to a personal choice. Ive used both, a lot over a last year, various model ranges, 1 series nikons mostly, and I choose canon...my boss, who has used nikon longer than i have been alive switched to canon after i came to work for him...that might tell some people something. He isnt USED to it though, so Im sure the switch is weird for him.

i love nikkor glass, just dont care for any of their bodies other than the d2x, which is the ONE i have not used.

Now I sit on a line at games with all nikkon users, experienced photojournalists ect, and they all agree that canon is ahead of the game. They just shoot nikon cause work pays for it to be that way. Fine by me, I would shoot a free nikon too...but when my money is on the line, unless I have 5k to drop on the big dogg nikon, im goin canon...

[lkorell]

If one was better than the other every pro would choose only one. Both companies produce good equipment for the pro shooter. The question becomes what works best for you? I had always shot Nikon until I went digital. Then Canon was producing the more advanced equipment. Nikon has come forward quite a bit with the D2x and frankly, if it were affordable I'd consider it, but in the world of digital obsolescence happens too quickly to be concerned about camera bodies.

If the optics are good, which Canon & Nikon are both at the top of the game, then it boils down to the feel of the camera body and what you need to do your job.

There are lens offerings on both sides that appeal to a working photographer. The camera bodies will probably change dramatically in the next couple of years so it is a basic choice now of what system will be affordable for you that gives you the tools you need.

Frankly, I have a lot invested in Canon and Nikon lenses. I use the 20D for digital work and the F6 for film. Depending on what cameras are introduced in the next few generations, and how much money I make, I could move in either direction. But, given my present experience, the Canon cameras are outstanding and a lot of fun to use. They are giving me what I need at the moment.

I have learned not to be particularly loyal to any company. I pay the money - they must prove to me I can use the product to my satisfaction. If not, I search elsewhere. Sorry, my religious beliefs don't extend to major corporations. ;)

Lou

[johnlo]

I've been using canon products since the 80s. First camera was the A1.... and now I have the 1N & the 20D. Do I like Nikon? of course. I have used it and I do like their products. But money wise, I wasnt able to afford any of the Nikon products... just WAY too expensive for me.

I do agreed that Photography is not all about the brand you use on your camera. Of course having a good quality camera do help to capture an amazing image.... in the end, ppl dont care what you use, or how you created it.

Right now I have both a Canon digital and a Fuji Digital (that uses Nikon Lense).... and I like both camera. actually I like the Fuji a little more. heheh!

the Salesperson at J&R are stupid. They dont know anything about cameras. My friend once told me that the salesperson was trying to sell him a REBEL film, and told him that this camera is water resistant. LOL!!!! and also told him that it will work with any lense... even Nikon lense.

john

[chakras]

and also told him that it will work with any lense... even Nikon lense.

john

Not a bad idea at all. I can then exchange lens with my friend :D

[lostdoggy]

That's a pretty generalised statement. BMW has always been the benchmark for performance and luxury combined. Rev happy inline-6s, stiff structural integrity combined with RWD and 50:50 weight distribution makes them truly the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Personally I am not a fan of their designs, but I respect their quality and truly believe they live up to all the hype.

I am a Mercedes man myself. True, they don't make them as they used to, but I absolutely love the new design. Every time I sit in our '04 E320 I feel like I can be lulled to sleep. Even at high speeds there is minimal noise and she glides over bumps and weaves through traffic like they were clouds.

Granted, they are expensive, but European engineering and design always has been. If you want a car to get from point A or point B, an undistinguished Japanese 4banger can do that no problem. I'd even say that's the perfect commuter car, a Civic/Corolla. They are reliable and the body panels will fall off before the engine/drivetrain even hiccups. People buy different cars for different reasons. I'm not arguing that there *do* exist people who buy a Mercedes just because they think that'll make them cool. But no, we are not that kind of people.

I'm sorry, but your post was quite offensive. I don't know if you meant it as a joke... "What's the difference between a BMW and a Porcupine? The pricks are on the outside of a porcupine." but to say they are "overpriced for the pretentius label whores" is quite insulting.

And never had I said they were "best". I just said, like Nikon and Canon, they are the two that will never be decided which one is superior. I'm a Benz fan, my friends are BMW fans. You can't go wrong with either vehicles, but I believe it is a similar dispute.

You shouldn't be insulted by my statement, there are lot of people who are envious of you and that is a good thing. The term "Label Whore" wasn't invented by me it was invented by the same pretentious people who needs to be surrounded by labels.

It should be understood that in life we choose the tools we use and how we use the tools dictate who we are. A car is just a tool to get you from point A to point B. How we look when we get there determines how others view you. If you get there in will your Benz you will impress the other label whore more then me getting there in my Kia.

For further referrence their isn't a single production Benz or BMW that has a 50/50 weight distribution. The last production car that was close was the Porche 944.

[cactusclay]

For film, I mostly used Nikon, then when digital hit, I tried both and found Canon to be more user friendly. I really don't know about image quality between the two, I'll leave that to people that are more qualified. I would however like to see Canon follow in Nikons footsteps, as far as the 17-55 2.8 goes. Blah ba blah blah blah.

[RAW]

I thank all of you for the replies that you have posted. I printed your posts so I could read on the train for sometimes don't have time home...:( .

My best regards,
Artan.

[Blue Deuce]

Benz or BMW ? Every well built brand has its vehmenent loyalists, detractors, merits and shortcomings.

[Fujifilmnut]

Artan,


I own and use a D70 and a Fuji S3 with very good Nikon lenses. I have seen many Canon shots and can tell you the D70 has more noise than the Canon above iso 400, although the Nikon is sharper with no adjustments. My thinking is that wen you equalize the noise reduction through adjustments, the images are quite close.

There is a significant color difference out of the camera with the Canon seeming a little cooler than the Nikon and much cooler than the S3 - especially skin tones. Again I think this can be equalized with in-camera adjustments.

So which one is the best? To me it depends on where your investment in lenses and flashes lies. If they are Canon, stay there and if they are in Nikon, stay there.

Jim

[eosster]

Another thread about a which brand is better....never ending story and probably would never end.

[maggie11_6]

nikon is ok.

[Bob_A]

Another thread about a which brand is better....never ending story and probably would never end.

:lol:
This is the song that never ends.
It goes on and on my friends.
Someone started singing it not knowing what it was,
and they'll continue singing it forever just because,

(repeat)
:lol:

[exposingmyself]

I have Canon DSLR and Nikon film cameras. KevC makes a good point about Canon lenses though.

Noticed you're a NYer. Don't know how long you can wait (maybe not long) but you should go to the Photography Expo this coming October at Jacob Javits. You can register to enter for Free. www.photoplusexpo.com.

I didn't purchase my camera there but I informed myself, asked plenty of questions then later sat down and figured out what I was looking for and figured out my budget.

Good Luck on your choice!

[Andy_T]

For further referrence their isn't a single production Benz or BMW that has a 50/50 weight distribution. The last production car that was close was the Porche 944.

According to some sorces, the 325i Z4 has a 51/49 distribution. Close enough?
Mazda of USA also claim that their Miata MX-5 has a 50/50 distribution.
Of course, that would also depend on whether the tank is full or not :p

But ... what would be more important is how the specific car is set up and what track it is supposed to race on. That makes more of a difference, IMHO.

BTW ... I personally prefer a 40/60 weight distribution with rear wheel drive ... there is a (German) car in production that has these characteristics and handles quite nicely, according to my experiences :wink:

Best regards,
Andy

[RAW]

Again, each and every single reply has been helpfull, even those about cars ;) .

Thanks to all of you.

Now to the next question...how do I know what lens is a good lens, meaning thre are a lot of wide angle lenses, how do i know which is the one that gives me better results and crisper images?

I am planing to buy one Wide angle, one fixed zoom lens (for portraits, maybe like 50mm), one moderate zoom (like from 70-200mm) and one super zoom. But, which ones are the best?


I pplan to buy 20D or maybe 30D...who knows :p .


Thank you all for your help...cheers.

Best regards,
Artan


I will also check the part on this forum about lenses...cheers.

[Andy_T]

Now to the next question...how do I know what lens is a good lens, meaning thre are a lot of wide angle lenses, how do i know which is the one that gives me better results and crisper images?


Well, by reading the forum and asking people questions, stupid :wink:

You might as well start here ! (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=56752)

Best regards,
Andy

[Matatazela]

I've heard pro's saing one is better than the other for reasons like robustness, feel of the controls, interchangeability of lenses (Nikon, here) battery life, and a few other characteristics. I have never heard a true professional say that one is a better image-maker than the other. They are professionals afetr all and realise that the end product is very similar and all systems have merit.

I have actually heard more bickering over film/slide vs digital than between the diffeent brands at the pro equipment level.

[Rob612]

I am planing to buy one fixed zoom lens (for portraits, maybe like 50mm),

What is a fixed zoom ? ;) ;)

[Andy_T]

It's a zoom lens that doesn't zoom any longer because it's broken.
They can be had pretty cheap on eBay :lol:

Best regards,
Andy

[garbidz]

There is a definite "Nikon" feel to their machinery and if you like it..well, Canon doesn't have it.
Is there anything comparable to the FM-2?
There is a BMW feel to a Bimmer and I sold mine. Got a Miata which has a very Canon feel to it which I like. If Nikon would have had 20D specs available at a comparable price, I would probably have gone their way. If Bimmer convertibles weren't so ridiculously pompous and overengineered, I might have gotten one.
A friend of mine bought a Honda S2000 he does not drive because it is too bumpy. He also got an Olympus because it is presumably good for landscapes which he never has time to go and photograph. He is very proud of his toys and who am I to say that he is nuts...

So there.
You can also take a bus and do "zen photography" which is extremely cheap as you do not need any camera at all...just frame the photo with your fingers and go "zap".

The funny thing is that as long as there are people who are happy with their equipment qhich differs from ours, we get insecure about our choices and...do not rest until they are proven wrong, ridiculed, killed or converted.
There is a little fundamentalist inside each of us.

I really like well made cameras and the pictures that skilled people are able to create with them.
Marketing or buying decisions have very little to do with the latter.
One might ask: What IS the point?

[jrm]

But, the main problem I got is with the guy in J&R and I said the same things you just said to me, but he disagrees and I don't know how to convince him. He says Nikon has never failed him and he says that is not true with the other cameras.

Canon forever!!!


Easiest way to win the argument with the person working at J&R...

walk out and buy your gear somewhere else.

Game over, you win.

--Joe

[tacos3]

Ford or Chevy, BMW or Mercedes, Nokia or Motorola, paper or plastic. All get the job done and it's a matter of taste or preference.

Personally, I prefer the national league as I hate the designated hitter rule.....

Darren

[RAW]

What is a fixed zoom ? ;) ;)

Well, I allways thought that the kind of lens that has a fixed focal length is called a fixed zoom lens, for whatsoever reason...and now when I googled the term I got this:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fixed+zoom+lens

[The Hardcard]

I just have a quick question. I have seen reference to Nikonians. What are Canon people called, Canonites?

[Belmondo]

I just have a quick question. I have seen reference to Nikonians. What are Canon people called, Canonites?


Cute.

Actually, Canon users are called 'The Annointed.'

The really good Canon users are called POTN members.

[DocFrankenstein]

Who cares, both are fine cameras and Noink isn't that noisy either.

[BDM]

I was a Nikon film camera shooter for many years. When it came time to move into the digital realm I decided to go with Canon for a number of reasons. I thought Canon had better and more advanced features and I still think that is true. But it meant that the many Nikkor lenses I had accumulated could not be used for digital and that meant a considerable investment would be needed down the road.

However, perhaps the most serious consideration is that the cameras work and feel different. If you are accustomed to the Nikon layout switching to Canon takes some adjustment. The more often you use a camera the more automatic camera adjustments become. I imagine that a pro who shoots every day might well have more trouble adapting to a new control layout than an amateur would.

One can argue endlessly which camera is "better", etc.. Yet I honestly believe that what is "best" is what feels the most comfortable in use. That is an individual consideration with no right or easy answer. Both camera makes will give highly acceptable and professional results. Beyond the camera itself, I think the lens range and cost may enter into the equation. If your pro friend feels most comfortable with Nikons that is the camera line he should definitely use.

Beyond the camera system itself, after purchase support is very important to a pro. Nikon used to be the champ there but Canon has obviously improved to the point that pros feel quite comfortable with support from Canon.

Digital technology is changing so fast that what is state of the art today may not be tomorrow. It's going to depend on which company has the research and the marketing savvy. I think Canon has been ahead and remains ahead of Nikon but Nikon is nipping at Canon's heels.

[WhiteLensMan]

Pentax all the way... baby!!

j/k. Actually depends on what youre used to is what mantra you will sing.
But, I have noticed this, Canon is stronger now than ever in its past, and has developed a younger demographic following (perhaps with the digital/internet generation).

Nikon has legacy. If you were a Nikon user in the 80's, then that was considered the best, and you are likely to stick to it. As such, Nikon might attract an older generation of clientele, who were accustomed to all things film.

Canon nomenclature, and overall equipment design, is more user friendly than Nikon, especially if you have made the transition to Canon from Nikon. Likewise with camera bodies - If you have been used to one set of rules, it takes some adapting and getting used to initially - accessing the advanced features and its layout intuitiveness is completely different from one make to another. (like the poster BDM said)

I used to be a Nikon person for 15 years but, switched to Canon 2 years ago.

As stated earlier, both manufacturers produce fine cameras, it boils down to the quality of lens, and the talent of the person taking the photographs.

-Vik

P.S. As far as Benz vs. BMW and all that crap. One thing is for sure... "if your camera gear costs more than your ride, we all know where your priorities lie."

[smasraum]

For further referrence their isn't a single production Benz or BMW that has a 50/50 weight distribution. The last production car that was close was the Porche 944.

The Mazda miata has had a 50/50 weight distr front to rear and something like 49.5/50.5 left/right since '89.

The new M3 has a 50/50 weight dist, the E36 was, I believe 51/49.

but that's ok, this is a camera board not a car board. ;) :D

[Andy_T]

Whitelensman,

welcome to the forum :D

Same for me as for you and BDM ... switched to Canon after long years of using (or ... honestly ... not really using very much :o ) a Nikon outfit.
I don't regret it a single minute.

Best regards,
Andy

[smasraum]

PS, I've got a 350D/Rebel XT. I looked at the D70 because I think it's important to know the market. The main things that swayed me were 1 I've had an EOS since '88, and my dad had Canons so I'm comfortable and 2 The kit price of the D70 is a fair bit more than the 350D.

I've read several reviews that compare the D70 to the 350D. The results are nearly even with just a slight edge going to the Nikon which has a better/faster shutter which enables a higher flash sync. In essense I think the people here who say this basically comes down to personal preference is right. The new Canon comp and sensor kick but, both cameras kick butt, Canon makes world class glass, but I may never (or maybe in a few years) have a chance to shoot with those very pricey lenses.

The 20D is better than both the D70 and the D100... in my opinion.

[smasraum]

According to some sorces, the 325i Z4 has a 51/49 distribution. Close enough?
Mazda of USA also claim that their Miata MX-5 has a 50/50 distribution.
Of course, that would also depend on whether the tank is full or not :p

But ... what would be more important is how the specific car is set up and what track it is supposed to race on. That makes more of a difference, IMHO.

BTW ... I personally prefer a 40/60 weight distribution with rear wheel drive ... there is a (German) car in production that has these characteristics and handles quite nicely, according to my experiences :wink:

Best regards,
Andy

Yep, actually the original Miata is setup to have a 50/50 with 160lbs in the driver's seat.

And, yes, my last car before my current miata was a 911. I'm not a label whore. Don't care what you think of what I drive. If I did I wouldn't have stripped the interior. It's about the capability of the tool.

The post calling someone a label whore wasn't offensive to me, but it did strike me as someone who's uninformed at the best or maybe rude, thoughtless, or jealous. Either way, the comment had little or no merit, so no biggee.

From a certain point of view having a $1000 or $4000 camera is the action of a label whore. Why spend all of that cash on a big flashy camera when a $50 point and shoot will take pics just fine. I'm guessing the people on this board know why, but to someone uneducated or unconcerned with anything other than the occasional snapshot it's a waste of time and money.

It's all about point of view. Just like which camera is better.

[guitarman]

It's a zoom lens that doesn't zoom any longer because it's broken.
They can be had pretty cheap on eBay :lol:

Best regards,
Andy

Yeah on ebay you'll get one for about 5% below brandnew cost.

[smasraum]

Yeah on ebay you'll get one for about 5% below brandnew cost.

Are you serious? I assume this all came about because someone said "fixed zoom" when they meant "fixed telephoto". How can a zoom be fixed, if it's fixed then it's not a zoom? Or is there some special zoom where the lens can zoom, but somehow doesn't change in length?

[guitarman]

Are you serious? I assume this all came about because someone said "fixed zoom" when they meant "fixed telephoto". How can a zoom be fixed, if it's fixed then it's not a zoom? Or is there some special zoom where the lens can zoom, but somehow doesn't change in length?

Read posts accurately before you post. I was kidding in reference to the previous ebay post that was also kidding. Geez:rolleyes:

Here I'll explain for the humour impaired. A poster joked that a fixed zoom was a broken zoom that could be had on ebay for cheap, hence I retorted that "yeah for about 5% cheaper than brand new cost", taking a jab at the spiraling ridiculous costs recently of used and somewhat questionably working items that can be had on ebay. get it now?

[guitarman]

where the lens can zoom, but somehow doesn't change in length?

Now your kidding right?:D

[smasraum]

Read posts accurately before you post. I was kidding in reference to the previous ebay post that was also kidding. Geez:rolleyes:

Here I'll explain for the humour impaired. A poster joked that a fixed zoom was a broken zoom that could be had on ebay for cheap,
I got that post.

hence I retorted that "yeah for about 5% cheaper than brand new cost", taking a jab at the spiraling ridiculous costs recently of used and somewhat questionably working items that can be had on ebay. get it now?
I wasn't aware of the spiraling ridiculous costs recently of used and somewhat questionably working items that can be had on ebay. That's why I asked if you were serious. I figured there was a possibility that you were poking fun at something, but I wasn't sure.

[Andy_T]

MY Tamron 28-75/2.8 XR DI actually has a lever that fixes the focal length at 28 mm. Don't know if that qualifies.

But, I wouldn't be too surprised if sellers on eBay started to sell manual M42 prime lenses as 'fixed zooms' so that today's photography newbies understand it's a lens :lol:

Something like...
"With a genuine fixed zoom lens, the size of your motive can be conveniently adjusted my varying your distance to the subject"
Best regards,
Andy

[guitarman]

MY Tamron 28-75/2.8 XR DI actually has a lever that fixes the focal length at 28 mm. Don't know if that qualifies.

But, I wouldn't be too surprised if sellers on eBay started to sell manual M42 prime lenses as 'fixed zooms' so that today's photography newbies understand it's a lens :lol:

Something like...

Best regards,
Andy

How about fixed focal - feet zoomed lens. Comes with high quality hood and top of the line Nikes

[grego]

in a few years) have a chance to shoot with those very pricey lenses.

The 20D is better than both the D70 and the D100... in my opinion.

Well the D100 is like a year older and was made to compete against the 10D. The 20D is an improved 10D, so it should be better, or Canon isn't heading forward in their upgrading. And the D70 is a lower end camera that was made to compete with the 300D/Rebel.

Nikon is just kinda slow to come up with something to rival the 20D, but if they do, they'll likely be about the same with a few different features that might outdo the Canon while the Canon might outdo the Nikon in some things.

[robertwgross]

Until recently, the prevailing wisdom was that Nikon made the best film cameras, and Canon made the best digital cameras. If you look at market share in the digital marketplace, Canon is taking over, hands down. That does not mean that Canon digitals are always the best, it just means that the consumers have perceived Canon digitals to be the best investment. Of course, consumers can be swayed by advertising.

Nikon may still make the best film cameras, but that is rapidly becoming the same as the company that makes the best buggy whips.

---Bob Gross---

[kenyc]

I am a Canon fan to death!!! but the thing is that the profesional photographer that I work with is using a Nikon d70 Camera. Now, I am fighting with him every day about what camera is better and He says that Nikon can do better because it has a better sensor and a better processor. I also got the same response from a 25 years profesional photographer that is working in J&R here in NY.

They claim that the photos out of the camera are best of that of Nikons because the sharpness is better, the detail is greatest in Nikon and the colors are more like they should be, and he said don't test on the monitor but on the prints...


Please help me how to prove that they are wrong and I am right...

Nikon D70 or Canon eos20D?


My best regards,
Artan

Don't bother, drop it and let your photos speak for themselves.

KAC

[PhotosGuy]

KAC is right! "Don't bother, drop it and let your photos speak for themselves." No-one ever really wins that "X vs Y" argument.
I used Nikons for years because I could depend on them & didn't need to think about things like "Which way do I turn the lens as something comes closer, etc". At the level of Canon vs Nikon, a cam is just a box used to capture your vision. You make the important difference, so don't sweat the small stuff.

[pammy]

Think this is an interesting thread. Been a D70 (and NIkon user for 20+ years) and I recently purchased the 20D and I know now I have a lemon D70. The 20D clarity is much better and takes the better pictures for me! As far as colors go...that's what photoshop is all about. I am really liking the 20D.

Pam

[Citizensmith]

I'm a Canon fan just because I got one for my 21st birthday and stuck with it ever since. I can get to know the ins and outs of one brand pretty easily so with Canon I know what will meet my needs.

To be quite honest if I'd been given a Nikon instead I'd probably be just as happy with them. Sure there are differences in the lineups but for the most part they are small and come and go. Canon does appear to have a lead in DSLRs but that doesn't mean Nikons stuff sucks. Basically I feel both brands are pretty much equivalent.

[Citizensmith]

Nikon may still make the best film cameras, but that is rapidly becoming the same as the company that makes the best buggy whips.

So who does make the best buggy whips? Canon, or Nikon? Or is it some stalking horse like Leica?

[mijbril]

The only true pro-photographer I know uses Nikon for the sole reason that that is where her lens investment lies.

When you've spent $XXXX on lenses, you're not about to change your body brand & then have a load of useless glass to flog off on ebay.

That said, I did ask her that if she was starting out now, what would she choose & she did say "Canon....."

[robertwgross]

I'm a Canon fan just because I got one for my 21st birthday and stuck with it ever since.

So, that was about forty years ago?

---Bob Gross---

[robertwgross]

Canon, or Nikon? Or is it some stalking horse like Leica?

I don't know, but I did have an old Argus C3 one time.

I think that dates me to somewhere around the last Ice Age.

---Bob Gross---

[Aschlaman@comcast.net]

I have both the 20D and the Nikon D70. I bought the D70 forst because I have lots of Nikon glass. I used it for a while and had some nice photos. I was waiting for Nikon to release a battery grip because I have large hands. When the D70S was released I got extremely angry. No grip no camera for the advanced amature. I have thought of the D100 but it was only 6mp. Also the lenses I used most like the 80-400mm VR were very slow to focus.

I took a chance and bought a 20D with a couple of lenses. I loved it it just felt great in my hands Canon has a much better selection of lenses plus USM. The rest is history I haven't looked back at Nikon. One in a while I use my D70 if I need a really long lens, but I Love Canon. If you buy the 20D you won't be sorry.
Art Schlaman
Canon 20D, 35mm f 1.4L, 50mm F1.4. 85mm F1.8,85mm f1.2L 18-85mm IS, 17-40MM f4L,
300mm IS F4L, 70-200MM f2.8L IS, 100-400mm L, 75-300mm IS,135mm soft focus
Tamron 28mm-75mm f 2.8, Tamron 180mm f2.8 macro, 580 EX flash
Canon G6
Hasselblad Xpan w/ 30mm and 45mm
Contax Aria, 21mm, 25mm, 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm
Fuji GA645i, GA670III
Epson RD-1 with Zeiss ZM 35mm f 2 and lots of Leica's
Epson P2000 storage device

[farrukh]

Okay here is the bottom line.

today Canon is clearly ahead in dSLR camera makers.
Canon's faith in CMOS sensors by choosing CMOS for its dSLR cameras and years of development on CMOS sensors is rewarding Canon now.

Nikon, and other competitor went with CCD because it was glittering. but today they are insprired by Canon's CMOS theory.

and there you have the example of how nikon is rocked by Canon's theory of CMOS development. that Nikon is now using a CMOS sensor made by Sony for its D2X dSLR. haha what a jerk. a so called famous camera maker using 3rd party sensors.

Regarding the d70 vs 20d, look at amount of noise that d70 generates on the images. some nikon lovers call this noise the sharpness in prints. hehe they dont admit that they can easily add the sharpness in 20d images during postprocessing more then nikon's noisy ccd images.
Noise-free sensor performance of 20d's 8 megapixel sensor is way ahead.
when i was not a canonian, i was regular user of noise reduction tools like neatimage. but now when i got this EOS 350D, i havnt touched neatimage program so far. probably untinstall it to free up some space :)

Now look at prices. nikon is priced much higher then canon just because canon delayed to get into digital market because it was working on CMOS development.

its just an agressive marketing that nikon did at early stage and people are buying it without even canon a try.

so Canon vs Nikon...

Canon is the winner to me

[S230]

Mac Vs. PC... Same pointless arguments.. your not going to change anyones mind.
Cannot help myself but just gotta say it....
There is no more argument between the two because Mac is going to be like a PC. The Mac will be using the Intel CPU which literally makes it a PC. The Mac already switched using most components PC uses such as PCI etc.
:)
As for cameras, time will tell.... maybe one day, Nikon would use Canon's CMOS sensor, etc... or even the "L" lens!... lol..
:)

[Citizensmith]

So, that was about forty years ago?

---Bob Gross---

Actually just twelve. At that stage though I'd been using an SLR for 9 years already so I was kind of hooked. It was a Konica though, don't tell anyone. :)

[Tom W]

Cannot help myself but just gotta say it....
There is no more argument between the two because Mac is going to be like a PC. The Mac will be using the Intel CPU which literally makes it a PC. The Mac already switched using most components PC uses such as PCI etc.
:)
As for cameras, time will tell.... maybe one day, Nikon would use Canon's CMOS sensor, etc... or even the "L" lens!... lol..
:)

It is rumoured that Bill Gates owns a substantial, but not controlling share of Apple.

[Belmondo]

It is rumoured that Bill Gates owns a substantial, but not controlling share of Apple.

That's covering your bases.

[Citizensmith]

It is rumoured that Bill Gates owns a substantial, but not controlling share of Apple.

Hey cool, so do I.

Although his definition of substantial and mine are probably very very different. :)

[primoz]

To be honest I don't see any reason why I would need to convince anyone which camera or system is better then the other. I use whatever I use, and you can use whatever fits you. It's really not my problem if someone thinks one system is better then other. Of course it would be different if I would be getting money for every person who would pick Canon instead of Nikon, but I don't think there's many people here who have this privilege. Personally I have Canon because of only two reasons... Nikon importer here sucks, and agency I work for is on Canon. That's it, no other one is better then other reasons.
And on end I can assure you, you can take perfect photos with both cameras. Most of my collegaues work on Canon but those which are on Nikon don't have any worse photos because of that. Both companies have cameras capable of being work tools. On end it's photographer not camera who makes difference, so I would rather suggest you to invest your time in taking more photos, making them look even better, then arguing or convincing other people which one is better :)

[Southswede]

Well the D100 is like a year older and was made to compete against the 10D. The 20D is an improved 10D, so it should be better, or Canon isn't heading forward in their upgrading. And the D70 is a lower end camera that was made to compete with the 300D/Rebel.

Nikon is just kinda slow to come up with something to rival the 20D, but if they do, they'll likely be about the same with a few different features that might outdo the Canon while the Canon might outdo the Nikon in some things.



Well, someone has to set goals for Nikon. Nikon doens't seem to be able to do it....it is nice of Canon to help out.

[SeanH]

Mec & Bimmer are not the Best they're just overpriced for the pretentious label whores!!!
Sorry but I have to comment here also. I have purchased well over 30 new cars in my life from quite a few different car makers. Also I'm in outside sales, so all I do is drive all day so I would consider myself qualified to rate how cars perform….at least in my opinion. I had that same opinion of BMW's........of course that's mostly because I had never driven one, and could not afford one either. So my wife decides she wants to buy one so of course I go with her to put the deal together. So after we work out the numbers she says "honey do you want to drive it". I say "naaaa, I'm not interested in the "Image Cars".So during the final test drive she talks me into driving it........and to make a long story short after about 3 miles of driving this car we left the dealer with 2 BMW's that night.
The words “The Ultimate Driving Machine” sum this car up perfect. Beside the Mercedes that I have never driven, there is no car that even comes close to the quality, ride, handling, or general performance of the BMW.

Now back to the cameras :wink: Here's a guy using a Fuji-
http://www.pbase.com/gj5150/root

I think this proves it's about the photographer....not the camera. I think this guy is on this board, so if you see this......Great work!!!!

[Ivan]

You can't just say Nikon is better than Canon. It is really up to the photographer. When i showed my picture to my supervisor (he uses a 20D with a lot of other lenses) at work who does weddings and has been doing photography for a long time, he was impressed of how clear and crisp my pictures were which came from a Powershot Pro1, a non-slr camera.

to see pics http://sonikempire.com/photography/thumbnails.php?album=15

It's really not up to the camera itself, but it's how to use it. It's not worth arguing, because everyone has their preferences. I choose canon because i was very satisfied with my Pro1, for a non slr that thing was pretty darn good.

Canon or Nikon? Who knows, if u have a chance try them both, compare them both, and then make judgements. Don't judge a book by its cover.

.Ivan