Need some quick input on Commercial Photography

[MarkAnthonyPhotography]

So booked a Commercial job photographing a local home/business alarm company. They have 10 locations across the Eastern US. They plan on using the images on brochures,flyers and inside their training manuals. I've got what I should charge for Production Fees, but can anyone give me some input on License Fees??

Client is wanting unlimited rights to the images in jpeg form. Possible 5-7 total shots.

Thanks in advance!

Mark

[amfoto1]

You really should get a copy of this for reference... http://www.amazon.com/Pricing-Photography-Complete-Assignment-Prices/dp/1581152078/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260898343&sr=1-1

It's a bit dated now, but still is about the best reference available with most types of usage covered and tons of detail about licensing specifics.

We really don't have anywhere near enough info to give useful input on licensing.

[Mark1]

There is an online calculater as well. I have lost the link, but someone here knows it.

[MarkAnthonyPhotography]

thanks guys. Yeah I tried to find that calculator as well!

I needed to quote them this morning, so I went with a License Fee of $500 per Year of use.

If they decide to use my images again next year I will require a "reissue" of the rights.

I feel like this is totally fair, if not "lowballing" after doing some extensive research. They are mass producing my images in flyers, brochures and their training manuals. Probably in the tens of thousands. No word as of yet. ;)

[Karl Johnston]

That's pretty damn low
I would've done that much each
if you think about it thats 75 each
ouch

[sfaust]

thanks guys. Yeah I tried to find that calculator as well!

I needed to quote them this morning, so I went with a License Fee of $500 per Year of use.

If they decide to use my images again next year I will require a "reissue" of the rights.

I feel like this is totally fair, if not "lowballing" after doing some extensive research. They are mass producing my images in flyers, brochures and their training manuals. Probably in the tens of thousands. No word as of yet. ;)

It is local, regional, national, worldwide? Is it for marketing collateral only, traditional advertising, public relations, etc? What media will be used?

As an example, historial data from FotoQuote shows a range of about $4,300 to around $8500 per year for all traditional marketing collateral usage (brochures, trade shows, corporate website, internal communications, and so on). Adjusting it down for smaller markets (worldwide, national, regional, etc...), half that could also be viable. This is for a single image. Some markets/client levels, it could be for a group of related images, or the whole shoot. Lots of leeway in pricing based on the market/client/geography, but either way $500 sounds very low for anything other than specific local regions.

It's worth investing in the book mention previously, tapping into other resources such as FotoQuote, other related books on pricing, and even on-line stock sources for getting a feel for pricing, and then adjusting up or down from there.

[MarkAnthonyPhotography]

I figured as much as the $500 quote would come up low. It is only a "regional" company. 10 locations along the southeastern coast. I did bill $150/hr for my time. Seems will be about 8 hours of shooting of a total of 3 locations. I wanted to offer something on the lower end mainly because I only got the offer due to an old friend that works in the company and overheard the conversation between the higher ups. He remembered I did photography and Googled my info. Still no word, who knows, they may have found someone who quoted even lower! Seems to be the industry norm now a day ;)

[MarkAnthonyPhotography]

Just to close this thread up, the company did contact me back. They accepted my bid of $150/hr but put a cap of 4 hours and agreed to my yearly license fee of $500. As I thought they would seeing that it is on the "terribly low" end of the scale. Considering this is my first real paid commercial shoot I didn't mind the lowball license fee. It will be nice to have in the portfolio and be able to charge premium for future projects!

[PhotosGuy]

It will be nice to have in the portfolio and be able to charge premium for future projects! On the one hand, congrats on your first paid job. OTOH, sadly $150/500 is now the rate they'll expect you to charge in the future. Win some, lose more. ;)

[Zansho]

thanks guys. Yeah I tried to find that calculator as well!

I needed to quote them this morning, so I went with a License Fee of $500 per Year of use.

If they decide to use my images again next year I will require a "reissue" of the rights.

I feel like this is totally fair, if not "lowballing" after doing some extensive research. They are mass producing my images in flyers, brochures and their training manuals. Probably in the tens of thousands. No word as of yet. ;)


500 per year for ALL of your images? Is this a nationwide ad, brochure, etc etc?

You need to know how the client will use the image, the advertising market (nationwide, statewide, worldwide, local), and the difficulty of photographing the product.

You should charge a creative fee, licensing fee, and for your time and any misc supplies/equipment rentals (plus a markup).

Let me put it this way - I recently did a job about a month ago where they wanted me to shoot some products for a nationwide campaign and use models demonstrating their product. This was a nationwide campaign, and my license fee (nothing else) was $1,300.00 per image, due to the scope of the use. This did not include my creative fee and other misc/equipment fees.

If they have a multi-million dollar (or several hundred thousand dollar) budget, they can afford to pay a photographer the proper fees for professional images.

One last thing though - don't fall for that old excuse "we want full rights" because it's VERY rare they actually NEED full rights (as in copyright) to your image - and if they want full rights, they better be prepared to pay 5-6k per image for you to sign away your rights to the images.

Make sure you check your contract with them, and get your money up front.

[sfaust]

One last thing though - don't fall for that old excuse "we want full rights" because it's VERY rare they actually NEED full rights (as in copyright) to your image ...

One tactic that I found works well is what I dubbed the 'subtraction' method. When asked for all rights, I say its not a problem at all. However, if we can give up rights that you will never use, it can save you money in the end. Ie, if you aren't going to publish the works in Asia, we can drop it off and deduct that cost off the bill. The same works for other countries, usages such as television, films, billboards, etc.

After you end the conversion, what they end up with is unlimited rights for things they will actually use, even though it may be very limited from truly unlimited worldwide rights. Many times, what they really want is to be able to use the images freely in the course of their normal business, and not necessarily unlimited use in a worldwide scope.

Approaching it this way over giving them an outrageous prices for worldwide unlimited usage, allows the photographer to be seen as a person willing to get them what they really want, and still save money in the process. It makes it more of a win-win scenario

[breal101]

The thing that struck me was the 4 hour cap, apparently this company is doing it's best to cheap out the job in every possible way. 5 to 7 shots in 4 hours at 3 locations sounds like a lot to expect, that's not a photo shoot it's a drive by shooting. Given that attitude the OP may have done the best he could with this particular client, one that most of us dread, cheapskates without a clue.

[Zansho]

One tactic that I found works well is what I dubbed the 'subtraction' method. When asked for all rights, I say its not a problem at all. However, if we can give up rights that you will never use, it can save you money in the end. Ie, if you aren't going to publish the works in Asia, we can drop it off and deduct that cost off the bill. The same works for other countries, usages such as television, films, billboards, etc.




Nice. I'll file that away for future reference. That's a very good business negotiating tactic.

[sfaust]

The thing that struck me was the 4 hour cap, apparently this company is doing it's best to cheap out the job in every possible way. 5 to 7 shots in 4 hours at 3 locations sounds like a lot to expect, that's not a photo shoot it's a drive by shooting. Given that attitude the OP may have done the best he could with this particular client, one that most of us dread, cheapskates without a clue.


I would tell the client that perhaps if everything goes perfectly right, its possible that it could be done in 4 hours. However, as is normally the case, it will probably take much longer and more in line with your quote. In light of that, once you reach the 4 hour cap, do they want you to stop work, or continue on a the $xxx per hour rate?

Another way to handle it is to let them know that the quality will not be nearly as good as what is seen in your portfolio since that level of quality can't be done in that short of time. It will be more of a 'point and shoot, gun and run' job, in which case if might be better to just purchase a cheap DSLR and have one of their employees do it.

Sometimes when clients try to go cheap, they need to understand there are trade offs in time/quality. You just can't do a 8 hour job in 4 hours and get the same results, period. Either they have to ante up the money for quality, or increase the shots per time period which drastically lowers the quality.