nightclub/gig/show photography w/ sigma 500 DG super?

[piku]

in reference to this thread... http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62296&highlight=nightclub

its coming in this friday, and the even that i want to use it for is on the 25th. live band, and might not have very good lighting. rules/tips/pointers to follow and use would be greatly appreciated.

TIA

[piku]

maybe i posted in the wrong section of the forums... i forgot, PROs use THE 5-series =)

[piku]

recently posted in the pro's section--forgot they dont have "sigma" in their vocab =)

anyways, in reference to this thread... http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62296&highlight=nightclub

its coming in this friday, and the even that i want to use it for is on the 25th. live band, and might not have very good lighting. rules/tips/pointers to follow and use would be greatly appreciated.

TIA

[snibbetsj]

How far away from the band will you be? If you're within about 30-40 feet, set the camera on M, aperture at 5.6, shutter at 160, start at ISO of 100. If histogram shows underexposure, up the ISO and continue to check histogram for exposure.

[cmM]

..., aperture at 5.6, shutter at 160, start at ISO of 100. If histogram shows underexposure, up the ISO and continue to check histogram for exposure.
why f/5.6?
why 1/160? :confused:

I agree about shooting in manual mode, but use whatever f/stop - shutter speed combination works for that particular situation.

[snibbetsj]

why f/5.6?
why 1/160? :confused:

I agree about shooting in manual mode, but use whatever f/stop - shutter speed combination works for that particular situation.

You're right. However, for me, from trial and error, that's usually where I start. f5.6 gives me pretty good distance for my flash (420EX) and a decent DOF. If I'm fairly close I might go up to f8, or further away down to f4 or even lower if necessary or I want a small dof. As for the 1/160, again, for myself, it's sort of a default shutter speed I use with the flash, if I want more ambient light I'll go a little slower or open up to maybe f2.8 or f2 if necessary. Not too much slower on the shutter or I get the "shakes" involved. Again, that's just me, you're right, each situation needs customizing. :)

[JacobPhoto]

Are you shooting a band / DJ from farther away? or people from a few steps away?

i have done club photography of both. Both cases, I use ISO 200 and manual settings, and just shoot until I get it right. Usually 1/16 or 1/32 depending on how dark it is for the close ups, and 1/8 or so for the further away shots. Also, play with curtain sync and the multi-strobe features...

[EricKonieczny]

Look here

http://www.ekreating.com/gallery/index.php?groupid=1


And click on each exhibition and then choose Detail Listing 1 up in the Menu,

You will then See all EXIF data for the photos.

Here are my suggestions and things I use often. But I chage my settings a million times a night

Use Bounce flash, Second Curtain, Bulb mode, Crazy angles, get creative, I start my F around 5 and go up or down.

[piku]

i'll be free to move around. it looks like i have to read up on a couple of subjects and get it somewhat right w/in a week =)

eric-great collection. i looked through a couple of photos, seems that you dont really have a definite setting. the ones i'm really digging are the motion shots (ones were i think you utilized the second curtain of the flash?), and portraits (for the attendees). for the motion shots, which setting do you find yourself using more and more (both on your 20D and your flash, FEC/etc etc...)? how and for the portrait shots?

jeff-i'd like to see your techniques' result(s)... gotta take in whatever i can w/in a week's period ^^

thanks all for, keep 'em coming

[tim]

Forget the flash - read this.

http://www.photo.net/learn/concerts/mirarchi/concer_1.htm

[EricKonieczny]

eric-great collection. i looked through a couple of photos, seems that you dont really have a definite setting. the ones i'm really digging are the motion shots (ones were i think you utilized the second curtain of the flash?), and portraits (for the attendees). for the motion shots, which setting do you find yourself using more and more (both on your 20D and your flash, FEC/etc etc...)? how and for the portrait shots?




For motion blur, I use a slow shutter speed like 1/30 down to 1/10 of a second. But I also use Bulb mode and then it is trial and error.

At any given event, I usually take 2-3 pictures of the same shots, and only keep one. Then when I get home I usually pick the best 50% of the shots, and publish them. I find it easier to delete a shot if it is bad right after shoot, rather than filling up my CF card and goign through 500 shots and keeping 75 in post production.

Other settings I use, on the flash, If it is too dark and I only need a little light, I use tge Flash in Manual and put it to 1/125. But I also use Second Curtain combined with the previously mentioned shutter speeds.

As for portraits, I usually have my f around f 5.6-8,a nd shutter 1/80- 1/150.

I will shooting another even tonight and I am looking forward to seeing your work.

Here are two other photgraphers that I have worked with. Just to give some more ideas.


http://www.cooljunkie.com/galleries/miami.html
http://www.ryanpfeiffer.com/Raves/ravepage.htm

[snibbetsj]

jeff-i'd like to see your techniques' result(s)... gotta take in whatever i can w/in a week's period ^^



Piku, Here's a few shots I took a while back at Coyote Ugly (a bar). Shot on M, f5.6, I think the shutter was 1/160 or thereabouts. Used my 420EX and a Lumiquest mini-softbox on it.

http://www.pbase.com/snibbetsj/coyote_ugly

[piku]

jeff--thanks, i'll take a look at those more closely when i get home.

on another note, thanks for the settings camera-wise but can we get some settings that ppl use on their flash (it'll help if its specific to the sigma 500 DG super as well).

also, will using a stofen omnibounce help? on some shots, on particular shots that is, if so which types?

TIA

ps. know any shops in SF/area that sells the stofen omnibounce model #om-c? i ordered one through bhphoto but it aint getting here till late next week. i need one for sunday night...so yah

[tim]

You don't need an omnibounce for concerts, because you shouldn't use a flash. Even if you could use a flash you're unlikely to be able to bounce it. If you're allowed to and need to just use the flash on ETTL2, perhaps use FEC-1 so that it doesn't overpower the stage lighting, if there's no stage lighting just use plain old flash. btw the Omnibounce shouldn't be used if you're not bouncing the flash, people come out orange.

[piku]

oh yah, before i forget most of the primary comments are set to ETTL correct?



For motion blur, I use a slow shutter speed like 1/30 down to 1/10 of a second. But I also use Bulb mode and then it is trial and error.
...
Other settings I use, on the flash, If it is too dark and I only need a little light, I use tge Flash in Manual and put it to 1/125. But I also use Second Curtain combined with the previously mentioned shutter speeds.

As for portraits, I usually have my f around f 5.6-8,a nd shutter 1/80- 1/150.
...

qualitatively from the top of your head... for bulb mode, which ISO do usually find yourself using and getting the best pics from? (i dont think the listing includes this thats why i'm asking)... ISO for portraits? the flash? FEC (/distance)?

[DavidEB]

Piku --

I don't shoot a lot of concerts but I do have the same flash as you, so maybe I can help there. I think you'd have to be a very advanced photographer indeed to require features from the canon EX's that aren't on the sigma, to me those features seem esoteric and not helpful. The sigma has an added plus -- it can fire in optical slave mode, triggered by the built-in flash of your camera. not useful for concerts but very useful for portraits.

your flash settings depend on what kind of picture you're trying to shoot. For concerts, with just a single flash, you won't need any of the following sigma 500 features: high speed sync, wireless flash, manual flash control (concert changes too fast to be useful -- stick with ETTL), manual zoom control, slave mode. Bounce flash doesn't help with high ceilings. So features you might find useful are FEC and strobe.

FEC -- if your ISO/f-stop/shutter combination are close to a correct ambient exposure, then you can dial down the flash output so you are only highlighting the performer (rather than typical flash shot - well exposed performer and very dark band). FEC -1 or -2 work for me.

Multi-flash pulse (strobe) -- you can get some interesting shots this way. Set exposure to 1/4 seconds, set strobe mode, dial in something like 12 herz so you get 3 flashes per exposure, and annoy the heck out of everybody around, including performers. Don't do it to often, the effect gets old fast.

ETTL -- this is very complex if you try to understand it fully. Exposure is based in part on where the active focus points are. So I find it helpful to set only the center focus point, so I at least know what the camera is trying to expose. This isn't a sigma issue it's a canon issue. After the concert, look at the flash exposures, then read the Flash Sticky Thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=46599) especially the flash bible link.

second curtain sync - this is a camera function not a flash function. I don't think the 300D supports this, even with the hacked firmware (not sure here). This means that if you try to replicate Eric K's excellent shots you will reverse the sense of motion, eg, the blur will lead into the properly exposed body part rather than away. Looks weird, most people don't like it. My advice is if you can't use second curtain sync then give up on motion blur with the flash.

setting exposure in M mode -- all depends on what the ambient light is like. Even with flash you want some of the backround to be exposed, so high ISO helps. Set camera in P mode, see what settings it suggests, start there, and tweak. Remember that with flash the shutter speed doesn't effect the flash exposure (foreground) only the background, whereas the f-stop effects both. Changing the f-stop changes the amount of flash output required (you can't make up for a small aperature with a slow shutter in flash photos). If you try to increase depth of field you might need a high ISO.

The best concert shots I've taken are all ambient light. The 50mm f1.8 is good for this, ISO 1600, with noise reduction software like neat image.

good luck,

[piku]

thanks david, those points will help. ...

...
second curtain sync - this is a camera function not a flash function. I don't think the 300D supports this, even with the hacked firmware (not sure here). This means that if you try to replicate Eric K's excellent shots you will reverse the sense of motion, eg, the blur will lead into the properly exposed body part rather than away. Looks weird, most people don't like it. My advice is if you can't use second curtain sync then give up on motion blur with the flash.

...

i saw this on the flash-manual. are you saying that even if i set it there, it won't work along w/ the 300D?

[DavidEB]

not sure. have never tried with 300D.

[piku]

for portrait/group shots, would a bracket help? if so, which bracket do you recommend for my setup?

TIA

ps. I got 3+ days till the event, been practicing w/ your guys and gals' tips... anything that wasn't covered above, please do tell. thanks again everyone.

[tim]

Did you read *any* of my previous posts?

[piku]

tim--is that a question or a lead? =) ...such a mysterious reply, but i'll check out your prev. posts. any particular one that is specific to brackets?

[Todd Jacobsen]

piku,

Search the forum, you'll find them. Check out accessories forum section first.

Recommend getting a bracket that suits your style of portraits you primarily shoot. If you are shooting "portait" as well as "landscape" style shots, I'd recommend a bracket that allows you to adjust the camera without having to move the flash. This will allow you to use the bracket on and/or off a tripod.

Stroboframe makes a good line of brackets. I own the Pro-RL. It's slightly more expensive than other Strobo models but you get your money's worth in one use (convenience is key).

[tim]

tim--is that a question or a lead? =) ...such a mysterious reply, but i'll check out your prev. posts. any particular one that is specific to brackets?

It's a question. If you read my previous posts you'll find that flashes often aren't allowed at concerts, they can get you kicked out, in which case a flash bracket is useless. Some places do allow them, but check *before* you go buying a lot of gear that you might not use. Even if you can use a flash, it's quite likely you don't want to - read the article I linked to in my first post on this thread.

[jfrancho]

Take a look at these (http://plan-b.smugmug.com/Music). With the exception of 3 or 4 pictures, no flash. The link that tim posted will be of great use. Do a search for Steve Parr and Dwight McCann, they have some great live photography posted here. If the show is in a small bar/club, I doubt that using a flash is prohibited. That doesn't mean it won't irritate the musicians, though. I personally had a photographer removed from a club for continuously firing a flashgun in my face as I was playing. But that's me, and sometimes I'm not so nice....I did sign the model release later for the guy, though. Bottom line, use a fast lens, and high iso to get the shutter speed you need. You don't necessarily need to have the aperture wide open, but a fast lens helps the AF operate in adverse lighting.

[piku]

well, i like the sigma a lot... still getting used to it. here's the pics i took of the night...

http://rhythmnatives.com/sv/?album=062505__Album_Release_Party__Show__Aura_Nig htclub_Studio_City_CA

i used my tamron (no flash) all night as there aint really room to move. the place was packed. matter of fact, i saw JC Chasez (N'SYNC) and also heard that Lil' Wayne was there too.

i did two shots w/ the built-in, maybe you guys/gals will notice it right away. but yah, i like this sigma... and i'm really diggin' event photography specially with great house lights (this place needed a bit more, but its ok).

once again, thanks for everyone who contributed to this thread... i'll keep studying your comments, and hopefully have pics like EK's in a couple of weeks/months/etc... just to mention a few haha (for ex., http://www.ekreating.com/gallery/photo.php?photo=1464&exhibition=30&pass=public&size=default&lang=eng ...looks like house-light, can't even tell if flash was even used)

[tim]

Nice pics :) Love that simpleviewer you used too, i'm gona use that!

Did you use the flash much?

[piku]

Nice pics :) Love that simpleviewer you used too, i'm gona use that!

Did you use the flash much?

thanks. as for using the sigma... haha not that much that night... you can really tell near the end of the pics.

[EricKonieczny]

Good work Piku for the first time out.

My only suggestion is to get some close up of people with a tighter crop.

That picture you have linked from me, was shot with a flash, I most likely used a bounce flash on a 45 or 60 degree angle with the wide panel difusser. that is built in the 580. It helps distribute and tone down the fflash.

[piku]

close up: your implying the group shots with the flash correct? ...if so, will do

the picture: yes, i knew it was a flash, i was just commending you on the way you make it seam it was the house lights =) ...as for wide-panel diffuser, the sigma came with a 17mm one. but i used the stofen omnibounce instead i think and took those pics -7^degrees, -1.1/3 FEC ...i gotta practice my distance when using it. how far are you usually when you took that linked-pic w/ your built-in wide-panel diff.? and do you even use anything other than your built-in one for the rest of your shots?

---
meanwhile, i just wished that i could have a wider lens thats fast... any recommendation(s)?

[jfrancho]

meanwhile, i just wished that i could have a wider lens thats fast... any recommendation(s)?I am currently researching two lenses to add: Canon 28mm f/1.8 USM (I've usd this lens, it's awesome, just not quite wide enough) Sigma 20mm f/1.8. Eventually I will probably get both. The 28 that I tried for a few days was as good as my 50 f/1.4 in club situations, except I could get three giant steps closer. I haven't tried out the 20, but I've read several positive reviews of this lens.

[EricKonieczny]

I have the Canon 10-22 and use it sparingly for group shots. The times I usually use it, is when i am taking a wide shot of the entire club or crowd, then I see a group of people I want to take a shot of, or someone asks me to take their pic and not enough time to change lenses. It is a great lens, but I don't think it is compatible with the 300D. It also freaks people out on how close i am standing to them while taking the picture. With it at 10-15 mm, I would be like 3-4 feet away from a group of people, which is really odd to them.

As for the flash, I only use the built in wide panel, and catch light card when I have it in bounce flash. I also use full manaul and dial down to 1/32/ - 1/128 . Its all about trial and error.

Every club/ bar/ concert lighting is so different.

Another thing I have been playing with is turn up the color temp to give evryone a nice tan. Normal setting is arounf 5200, but if I bump it up to 7500-9000, it gives everyone a nice tan. I honeslty alomost throw out the stuff like normal skin tones, correct exposure etc, in clubs.

[jfrancho]

It is a great lens, but I don't think it is compatible with the 300D.Since this is an EF-S lens, it is compatable with the 300D.

[piku]

EK--thanks for the knowledge. hope to give it a run. what is the "catch light card" you are referring to?

j--let me know how it goes w/ that sigma 20/1.8.