Canon Medium Format Camera Body?

[cubano100pct]

Has Canon ever considered a Mediam Format Camera body that works with their ES lenses? I would like to see one that works with film and digital. Similar to the Mamiya ZD or Pentax 645 Digital.

The Mamiya ZD is shape is like a beefed up 35mm SLR. 36x48mm sensor and 22MP.

I have an old Mamiya 645 and Canon EOS 10D.

[Longwatcher]

Three things.
#1 my 1DsMkII is apparently actually bigger then the Mamiya ZD according to what I have read. And already rivals MF color film quality

#2 medium format would require a different set of lenses to accomodate the larger sensor.

#3 Canon, like Kodak and myself probably feels that film is basically going away permanently (except for a few dedicated hobbiests and large format) in the next few years so why expend R&D dollars on dual use backs.

I forgot to mention that the reason MF cameras can more likely handle dual backs is most MF cameras were designed to have multiple backs because it takes time to load film and commercial photographers didn't want to spend time loading film when you had a whole crew present, so a changeable back was the best option.

Just my knowledge and opinion,

[RogCincy]

#3 Canon, like Kodak and myself probably feels that film is basically going away permanently (except for a few dedicated hobbiests and large format) in the next few years so why expend R&D dollars on dual use backs.


As far as I know all the major players continue to develop and release new camera for their print lines. So I don't think film is as dead as some may believe or be lead to believe.

[Andy_T]

I could not find any reference to Canon ES lenses, so I assume you are talking about EF lenses. Correct?

Well, if you put an EF lens on a medium format body, you would get an image with nice black corners ... technically called vignetting. Not exactly what anybody would really want to have... so it won't work that way.

Speaking digitally, the 1Ds *is* Canon's 'Medium format' body ... while most other digital cameras have settled for a 1.6, 1.5 or 1.3 crop factor.

Other than that, in film, there are good reasons for both 35 mm cameras and MF cameras. Advantages of the former are robust, compact design and the ability to shoot fast, focus fast and change lenses and films fast. Speed at the sacrifice of the last ounce of image quality. The latter (MF cameras) give superior image quality but feel most at ease when used on a tripod, within the controlled atmosphere of a studio. Horses for courses.

Best regards,
Andy

[Rob612]

Film is NOT dead. Its just changing every day its position in the maket. For certain jobs its just unbeatable and I believe that is going to remain so for a loooong time. For comparison, just think the grade of magnification you have in a movie theater... the big screen (12+ meters, thats 36+ ft for you folks that are still without metric system :)) comes out from either a 35 or 70 mm film. But wait... the frame, if we are talking 35 mm is NOT 24x36mm, but 18x24 (Academy format) what is the enlagment ratio from 18mm to 12 mt (i.e. 12.000 mm) ? About 700x... makes you think, doesn't it ?

[cubano100pct]

Yes, I meant EF lenses, not ES. I thought if you move the sensor back to the point before it starts vignetting, the image will be bigger. You can then put a larger sensor and increase the megapixels. The focus point will be different from 35mm.

There will be a point that the pixels density per mm can not be any higher for a full frame.

[robertwgross]

As far as I know all the major players continue to develop and release new camera for their print lines. So I don't think film is as dead as some may believe or be lead to believe.

What is a print line?

---Bob Gross---

[PaulB]

"I thought if you move the sensor back to the point before it starts vignetting, the image will be bigger. You can then put a larger sensor and increase the megapixels. The focus point will be different from 35mm."

If you are saying what I think you mean then you don't understand optics and physics. If the focus point is different from 35mm then EF lenses will not focus and a new range of lenses would be needed..................
MF lenses will work on 35mm bodies because their backfocus is longer and they can be spaced away from the film/sensor plane to acheive correct focus on the smaller format. It will not work the other way round though.

[CyberDyneSystems]

The future of digtal is smaller .. not larger.

Canon will continue to overtake MF film quality with it's 1Ds line and 35mm sensor sizes using existing EF lenses.

It's expansion will be in smaller sensors (or better 1.6X ones) and EFs lenses..

[Longwatcher]

There will be a point that the pixels density per mm can not be any higher for a full frame.

You are correct, but that point is at around 120MP for a FF 35mm format DSLR and this will allow you probably to print a 2meter x 3meter print at 300dpi without enlargement. It will also probably be noisy above ISO 400.

Although I suspect at about 48MP, if there is enough need for more resolution, then Canon might decide to produce a MF (or larger) camera and lens system, but remember a 22MP 35mm format FF camera will get you a very nice enlargement and still have very low noise from 100-3200. So the question becomes at what point will demand drop off enough that it is not worth the effort. Just listening to my Mom I gather that if it produces an 8x10 they are happy.

I personally felt that if I had gotten the 1Ds at 11MP I would probably eventually wanted more MP, but with the 1DsMkII at 16MP, this desire is greatly reduced and I am not seeing an eventual need beyond around 25-30MP at most for me and I am a hobbiest in my eqipment purchase. I think the whole lens technology is more likely to change before we get to the 30+MP point. We are already starting to see a slow down in increasing MP numbers (or at least I think I see a slow down) as consumer demand switches from MP to other capabilities.

Just my opinion,

[Tom W]

Film is NOT dead. Its just changing every day its position in the maket. For certain jobs its just unbeatable and I believe that is going to remain so for a loooong time. For comparison, just think the grade of magnification you have in a movie theater... the big screen (12+ meters, thats 36+ ft for you folks that are still without metric system :)) comes out from either a 35 or 70 mm film. But wait... the frame, if we are talking 35 mm is NOT 24x36mm, but 18x24 (Academy format) what is the enlagment ratio from 18mm to 12 mt (i.e. 12.000 mm) ? About 700x... makes you think, doesn't it ?

Also consider the viewing distance involved. Opinions vary but ordinary 35 mm film is considered to be about the equivalent of 12-20 megapixels, meaning that we're already at the point where digital is better than some film and equal to the better renditions.

Digital will overtake film in the movie realm in a few years - not so quickly since there's a huge amount of capital investment that has been made in the present equipment over the years, but as stuff wears out, it will be replaced.

[roanjohn]

I just recently saw optics for MF cameras.........those things are HUGE!!!! I think Canon (If they want to venture into MF/LF digital cameras), they would have to make a new set of mounts to truly match the size of the sensor.

Just my opinion.

Ro1

[Belmondo]

The future of digtal is smaller .. not larger.

Canon will continue to overtake MF film quality with it's 1Ds line and 35mm sensor sizes using existing EF lenses.

It's expansion will be in smaller sensors (or better 1.6X ones) and EFs lenses..

CDS, are you trying to ruin my day? :lol: :lol:

I'm really annoyed with the idea that Canon is shoveling out new EF-S lenses that won't work on my Mk II.

You're right, of course. I'm sure we'll see a small-sensored pro body in the not-too-distant future, and that will only be the precursor of even more EF-S lenses.

I fear that full frame sensors are no more than future dinosaurs. :cry:

[Longwatcher]

I fear that full frame sensors are no more than future dinosaurs. :cry:

Just remember the one official statement from Canon reps (Chuck Westfall) on the future was they expect they will someday merge the 1D and 1Ds lines into one camera and if the could have gotten a 22MP doing 8FPS they would have. Now whether this is a 1.3 or 1.0x sensor is still potentially debate able, but I am guessing since they are not coming out with 1.3x lenses they are going for 1.0x sensors

[CyberDyneSystems]

I don't think full frame is going away anythime soon... no not at all.

Were onto a different subject now entirely..
The direction for a NEW format is SMALLER than 35mm.. and EFs...

This is directly opposite of the idea of an MF body.

That's all,..

I think Full Frame is going to be around for some time.. with 50 plus full frame lenses in Canon's stable..? It will be quite a while before these are all relegated to the "Canon Museum"

[Poco]

A bit off topic, but this thread seems to be going there...

It seems that the future should be larger sensors, not smaller ones. I was under the impression that the main issue with the larger sensors is the cost. Technology costs usually go down over time (for the same tech). I expect that the future of DSLR is to increase the sensor size to help cut down on noise and increase MP (That is why the most expensive DSLRs have larger sensors) unless it is cheaper to do that with a smaller sensor. There is plenty of room in a DSLR as I don't think anyone will accept a camera smaller than the 350D and there is plenty of room in there for a larger sensor.

I fully expect that the cheapest way for Canon (or anyone else) to make better cameras will be to increase the sensor size rather than make a better small sensor, but I could be wrong.

[Trumper]

If you go down the line of 22 mp cameras the storage cards and harddrives will have to be huge,you could then end up where print film will end up cheaper than the storage media on Digital.

[RogCincy]

What is a print line?


Anything other than the digital cameras. Sorry if it seemed like I was stating something else.

[lostdoggy]

I don't think full frame is going away anythime soon... no not at all.

Were onto a different subject now entirely..
The direction for a NEW format is SMALLER than 35mm.. and EFs...

This is directly opposite of the idea of an MF body.

That's all,..

I think Full Frame is going to be around for some time.. with 50 plus full frame lenses in Canon's stable..? It will be quite a while before these are all relegated to the "Canon Museum"

But think about it a whole new line of EF-S L lenses and phasing out EF L lenses. Wow look at the possibility of profit and angery L lenses owners.

[Longwatcher]

If you go down the line of 22 mp cameras the storage cards and harddrives will have to be huge,you could then end up where print film will end up cheaper than the storage media on Digital.

Well if at 22MP the CR2 files are even close in relative size to my 16.7MP images, they should be 20MB in size, which means I can get about 12,500 on a 250GB external drive, which cost about $250 or about 50 pictures per $1 or about 1/20th the cost of film to buy and process. Not counting initial outlay costs of Camera, Computer, and CF cards.

If those are included over cost of film camera presuming an equivilant camera for September of this year (EOS-1v) You need to take a little over 30,000 pictures to make the cost of digital cheaper then film camera (even at that size). Going down to Rebel/Elan range of $1500, you only need to take about 10-12,000 images to save over film (I presume film costs $10-12 to buy and process). It should be noted of course that I expect film prices to rise as demand drops and the manufacturers reduce the number of plants making it. Meanwhile I expect storage costs to continue to drop, thus digital should be even cheaper relative to film in the years ahead.

And on a last note: My expectations at this time are that a 22+MP, 8+FPS(at 22+MP), 35mm sized sensor camera will reach the less then $1500 price point around 2012 to 2015 time-frame at the current rate of progress. I am thinking closer to 2012 at this point if competition holds.

Just rambling aimlessly,

[rich_yau]

But think about it a whole new line of EF-S L lenses and phasing out EF L lenses. Wow look at the possibility of profit and angery L lenses owners.

but those "old" L lenses will still work on the new cameras!

BTW, I dont know if its true, but someone was advertising a "modified" EF-S kit lens and said it would fit a 10d or d60 the other day on my loacal craiglist.

[willg]

but those "old" L lenses will still work on the new cameras!

BTW, I dont know if its true, but someone was advertising a "modified" EF-S kit lens and said it would fit a 10d or d60 the other day on my loacal craiglist.

yeah you just have to cut the extension off of the lens to get it to fit. i would be tempted to put it on my film body though and probably destroy the rear element

[cubano100pct]

I think the EF-S lenses are only needed sensors with a focal length factor of 1.6x. Once full frame sensors are in the price range of 20D, then there would be no use for EF-S lens line.