Who includes "Digital Negatives"?

[RT McAllister]

I see a lot of photographers that deliver, "Digital Negatives" as part of a client's package. Those that do this, are they truly DNG files? (I've come across a few people that call the JPEG files they distribute, "Digital Negatives" which isn't true).

These files are large and I assume you're also giving out 1 or 2 versions of JPEG equivalents as well. How many DVD's are you typically giving out for say, a 500 photo package?

[bnlearle]

I don't know what I call them -- just depends on what the client asks for. If they ask for "digital negatives" I tell them that I include them in certain packages. But they are JPEGs.

In all pragmatic rights, they are digital negatives. The client can print from them. I've never once used DNGs for anything of my own. All my prints I've ever printed up for personal reasons have been from JPEGs.

500 JPEGs fit easily on a single DVD. I'm not sure I know what you mean about giving out 1 or 2 versions of JPEG equivalents...

Bobby

[egordon99]

I don't think any of my clients would know WHAT to do with a raw (cr2 or DNG) file. If they did, and could load it up in ACR/LR, chances are the photos would end up NOT looking like what I come up with (unless I also give them the XMPs) Chances are they will badmouth me to everyone and complain about the colors being off :lol:

[tim]

People mean jpeg files when they use the phrase "digital negatives" in this context. If you give your customers dng files, which they don't need btw, they'll come back to you and tell you they can't open them. Means they can mess with them more easily too.

[egordon99]

I just call them what they are in my contract -
"High Resolution JPG files with a license to print for non-commercial purposes"

[Peacefield]

I just call them what they are in my contract -
"High Resolution JPG files with a license to print for non-commercial purposes"

Me, too. Everyone's clear and no surprises. I've never been asked for anything else.

[RT McAllister]

People mean jpeg files when they use the phrase "digital negatives" in this context. If you give your customers dng files, which they don't need btw, they'll come back to you and tell you they can't open them. Means they can mess with them more easily too.Yeah, I know. :D I just see the phrase, "Digital Negatives" on a lot of web sites and was curious if those people knew that there actually is a file format for this type of file and that it isn't JPEG, And also... if they were living up to the true meaning of the phrase, how they were supplying DNG files because they are huge.

And unlike RAW files, anybody can open a DNG file with Adobe's free converter. That's why the DNG format was created.

Who would want them? Heck if I know.

[bnlearle]

Fair enough. But it's still completely correct to say digital negative in reference to jpegs. Just because Adobe came up says that DNG stands for digital negatives, that doesn't mean that's the ONLY way you can define "digital negative". In fact, I'd argue that digital negatives (when referred to as "digital negatives" and not "DNG's") are more often being referred to as JPEGs on a disk than DNG's. So at best "digital negatives" can have two meanings -- with the more accepted meaning being JPEGs on a disk ;)

[RT McAllister]

the more accepted meaning being JPEGs on a disk ;)I think you're right. the DNG format wasn't invented until 2004(?) and I'm sure the term "digital negative" was used way before then.

[tim]

And unlike RAW files, anybody can open a DNG file with Adobe's free converter. That's why the DNG format was created.

The DNG converter converts propriety RAW files to DNG, it doesn't let people open them. They'd still need RAW processing software.

[RT McAllister]

The DNG converter converts propriety RAW files to DNG, it doesn't let people open them. They'd still need RAW processing software.I did not know that. I thought it went both ways.

[tim]

I did not know that. I thought it went both ways.

Only in your dreams ;)

[Reminisce]

On my packages and contracts, I list "Print CD/DVD" or "Photo CD/DVD" with "limited reproduction rights".
I give my clients high res JPEGs and inform them in the contract and package that they will print up to a certain size without quality loss. If they want to print higher than that size they need to order through my site. I never use "digital negatives" in my material because I've seen some people get finicky over understanding what that is and believing that means they have COMPLETE rights to all the images and I cannot use them for my own usage. To save myself from that headache, my keywords dont include the words "digital negative"

[bnlearle]

I don't mind the term because I give my clients that order a disc the full resolution images. They have private rights to them -- basically don't make money off them and we're cool :)

[sapearl]

It's another one of those buzz word phrases - the current (but fading?) fad in such words. Some stores still sell "digital film." :D - Stu

Yeah, I know. :D I just see the phrase, "Digital Negatives" on a lot of web sites ,,,,,.

[Joelene]

I don't "give" digital negs away in a package. I don't sell digital negs either. I do sell "high resolution files" to my couples. With limited rights.

You have to keep in mind that yes a lot of photographers use the term "digital negatives" and just hand over the jpgs. To the all the "unknowing' folks out there those are the negatives. It is YOUR job as a photographer to educate your client. If you want them to know that the jpg's are NOT the "digital negatives" then you do realize they will start wanting the actuall dng's, raws, cr2's or what ever files. right?

so really, what does it matter? someone mentioned as long as they can print they dont' care... If you want more control over your work, don't give away your high rez files, or your digi negs.. to anyone for any price

[wndrlst]

Regarding the term "Digital Negatives"

Effectively, negatives are what the client can print their images from. To me, the jpg is the digital "negative." It's not the "original file" or the most manipulable or archival form of the image, but it's the one that allows them to obtain the product they want - whether that's an image to display on facebook or a print.

I wouldn't want an un-processed roll of exposed film from a wedding photog still shooting film. Why the heck would a non-photog wedding client want a bunch of RAW files?

But yes, I call them high resolution or low resolution digital files.

[RT McAllister]

so really, what does it matter?It would matter a lot if say you're the groom and also a budding photoshop artist. Imagine his surprise when he opens up the DVD you gave him only to find it's full of pretty yet compressed JPEGS instead of DNG files - especially after your website specifically stated that, "Digital Negatives" are included. And we aren't talking semantics here because there really is a "digital negative" format and it's not JPEG.

A rarity to be sure but hey, it could happen. :D I'm just saying why chance it? And like stated up the line... for those of us old enough to remember, the mere mention of the word, "negative" implies ownership, copyrights and all the wrong ideas.

If you want them to know that the jpg's are NOT the "digital negatives" then you do realize they will start wanting the actuall dng's, raws, cr2's or what ever files. right?I'm saying do away with the term completely so you aren't put in that position to begin with. (Like you do).

[bnlearle]

I don't "give" digital negs away in a package. I don't sell digital negs either. I do sell "high resolution files" to my couples. With limited rights.

You have to keep in mind that yes a lot of photographers use the term "digital negatives" and just hand over the jpgs. To the all the "unknowing' folks out there those are the negatives. It is YOUR job as a photographer to educate your client. If you want them to know that the jpg's are NOT the "digital negatives" then you do realize they will start wanting the actuall dng's, raws, cr2's or what ever files. right?

so really, what does it matter? someone mentioned as long as they can print they dont' care... If you want more control over your work, don't give away your high rez files, or your digi negs.. to anyone for any price
To anyone for any price?! Really? That sounds like a terrible business model...

And the term "digital negative" has been around LONGER than DNGs ;) I don't use the term, but it's at least as correct -- if not more correct -- in regard to JPGs on a disc than to DNGs.

It would matter a lot if say you're the groom and also a budding photoshop artist. Imagine his surprise when he opens up the DVD you gave him only to find it's full of pretty yet compressed JPEGS instead of DNG files - especially after your website specifically stated that, "Digital Negatives" are included. And we aren't talking semantics here because there really is a "digital negative" format and it's not JPEG.

A rarity to be sure but hey, it could happen. :D I'm just saying why chance it? And like stated up the line... for those of us old enough to remember, the mere mention of the word, "negative" implies ownership, copyrights and all the wrong ideas.

I'm saying do away with the term completely so you aren't put in that position to begin with. (Like you do).
Any PS guru is going to know that if he wants a specific format (RAW, DNG, TIFF, etc), he's going to have to specify it.

In fact, you'd most likely be fine, even if it went to court. The generally accepted term for digital negative is a JPEG. DNG is known amongst professionals (and serious hobbyists) as a type of format. In both circles -- the general public AND the pros -- the difference is known. If you're referring to the format, you say DNG. If you're referring to something that you can print with, you say digital negative (amongst other things, like high res file, or something).

It really just doesn't matter and it definitely isn't a problem that photographers need to be made aware of or else... ;)

[RT McAllister]

Any PS guru is going to know that if he wants a specific format (RAW, DNG, TIFF, etc), he's going to have to specify it. But if you say it on your website then why ask? Question already answered. "Look honey! we get DNG files with this guy!" :D

In fact, you'd most likely be fine, even if it went to court. The generally accepted term for digital negative is a JPEG.
Not true. Adobe owns the license to the digital negative format and therefore a judge "might" have to go by that specification.

It really just doesn't matter and it definitely isn't a problem that photographers need to be made aware of or else... ;)Hey, I agree! But I either nitpick about this or start working on stuff for my day job which really sucks. :D:D

[TSP2010]

OMG..LOL

[bnlearle]

"Not true. Adobe owns the license to the digital negative format and therefore a judge "might" have to go by that specification."

Maybe so to "Digital Negative Format" -- but "digital negatives" is still a generally used term that 99% (quite literally) of the time refers to JPEGs on a disk ;)

[TSP2010]

He hee touchy subject. Who would take it to court anyway. Most clients spend so much having the photos made they would much rather leave it to the pros to print. And the ones who do like to print only want to print for family & friend extras (usually 3x5 or 4X6) or to show off on Facebook or Myspace). Just remember to have your logo's on them so you get credit when they are posted. ;0)

[sej]

I give my clients the high resolution files, I figure if they spend thousands on having me at their wedding they should get the files.

With the terminology, you have to understand that brides are generally not very technical - there are exceptions but most do not know what a raw file is, or what it means to have a jpeg etc.

I say that I give them the digital negatives which are actually quality 12 jpegs exported from the raws - the clients who actually are technical will generally ask questions about this when they first meet me so it's all clearly understood.

Sometimes a real techie will ask for the raws and I decline - if jpeg compression is a concern to them I can export them as tiffs to an external hard drive for them. But I don't give the .cr2's