1Ds Mark IV - Banding/noise at base ISO - is there hope???

[Michael Lidski]

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=34229437

Halo Canon?

[montanawild]

What is with the conspiracy theory about purposely sabotaging base ISO? LOL

[NeoTokyo]

Your thread kinda confused me till I went to the link, you mean 1D not 1Ds.
I was like; "Hey, thats not out yet!"

Anyways I have seen some samples here on our own forums and DAMN they clean.
We will just have to wait till we get more samples out there.

I highly double that Canon would compromise their flagship.

[Michael Lidski]

Please take time to read that dpreview thread attentively. Yes there is an issue. And yes I did mean the future 1Ds Mark IV - apparently, there is no hope with the current models. This is a serious problem and we need to make Canon listen to us. Noise/banding appear in post-processing. I was not the guy with the conspiracy theory, I'm Michael61 over there.

[NeoTokyo]

Why are we talking about a Camera we have no real world knowledge about?

I dont really like DPR's forum setup, I dont see what you are talking about.

[stsva]

And so it begins . . . . :cool:

[NeoTokyo]

And so it begins . . . . :cool:

+1 No SH!T! LOL

Just cant leave those Christmas Presents alone, gotta start shaking it to see whats inside.

[Michael Lidski]

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=33995233

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=33625219

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=34160531

This is what I'm talking about - and there are more...

[District_History_Fan]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Michael Lidski]

Why are we talking about a Camera we have no real world knowledge about?

- Because when it comes out it'll be too late.

I dont really like DPR's forum setup, I dont see what you are talking about.

- I am talking about very bad noise and banding in gradients/shadows at ISO 100 apparent even in best DSLRs of today and very annoyingly visible in PP when balancing shadows/highlights.

[Tom W]

Show me some pictures from the 1Ds IV at low ISO and I'll see if I cn find any banding.

In the meantime, take about 75% of what you read on DPReview's forum with a grain of salt. There are some good posters there, but there are also a bunch of hacks.

[timnosenzo]

I highly doubt that Canon would compromise their flagship.

They might...

Either way, the OP is going to get blasted for this thread. But the truth is, Canon has run into some low ISO noise issues on recent cameras. I don't often find it to be an issue, but there are times it pops up and I just can't deny it's existence.

[NeoTokyo]

+1 Tom W

[Michael Lidski]

Sample:
http://lordofthelens.zenfolio.com/img/v9/p132093064-5.jpg
zoom in:
http://lordofthelens.zenfolio.com/img/v3/p51468659-4.jpg
zoom in:
http://lordofthelens.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p112958630-4.jpg
zom in:
http://lordofthelens.zenfolio.com/img/v3/p429242814-4.jpg

See now?

[NeoTokyo]

Tim that is true and we know that Canon knows about this.

All we can do is hope that they solve this for their $8000+ dollar flagship once that is released.
It is pointless to get all upset about something that we dont even know the slightes fact about yet.

[Tom W]

Those images are not from a 1Ds Mk IV.

[Michael Lidski]

They might...
the truth is, Canon has run into some low ISO noise issues on recent cameras. I don't often find it to be an issue, but there are times it pops up and I just can't deny it's existence.

- The question is, can and will they do anything about it when they make 1Ds Mark IV?

[District_History_Fan]

Sample:
http://lordofthelens.zenfolio.com/img/v9/p132093064-5.jpg
zoom in:
http://lordofthelens.zenfolio.com/img/v3/p51468659-4.jpg
zoom in:
http://lordofthelens.zenfolio.com/img/v4/p112958630-4.jpg
zom in:
http://lordofthelens.zenfolio.com/img/v3/p429242814-4.jpg

See now?

So is this one of the situations where the shadows are clipped badly and then jacked up in post?

[timnosenzo]

Tim that is true and we know that Canon knows about this.

All we can do is hope that they solve this for their $8000+ dollar flagship once that is released.
It is pointless to get all upset about something that we dont even know the slightes fact about yet.

I agree it's best to wait and see how things play out. Folks on DP Review and FM seem to live for this sort of thing.

[Michael Lidski]

Those images are not from a 1Ds Mk IV.

They will be if we fail to persuade Canon to deal with it.

[Photon Phil]

Oh man, :( and I was hoping the 60D would keep me from saving for a D700.

[Tom W]

They will be if we fail to persuade Canon to deal with it.

The 50D and the 5D2 are the only bodies that have any tendency to exhibit this, and only in situations where exposure was raised at what I'd call an extreme amount.

It's not a problem in the T1i, the 7D, or the 1D4 which have all been marketed since those two bodies. And it won't be a problem in the 1Ds4. Quit worrying about something that isn't going to happen.

[Kafn8td]

What!!! I also hear the 7D sucks. WTH?

[Tom W]

Yeah, they all suck. Send them to me and I'll take care of them. Lenses too!

[Michael Lidski]

I agree it's best to wait and see how things play out.

- If we don't pester them about it they will not bother fixing it - why bother if their cameras are the best even as they are?

[Tom W]

Do you really think that pestering Canon is going to have any effect on a camera whose design is already 99% complete? Maybe they'll send you a special one for your efforts. I know that I would. :)

[Michael Lidski]

So is this one of the situations where the shadows are clipped badly and then jacked up in post?

- Call it what you like - the isuue is there.

[timnosenzo]

- If we don't pester them about it they will not bother fixing it - why bother if their cameras are the best even as they are?

Canon doesn't hang out here. You should write a letter to their support. ;)

[District_History_Fan]

- Call it what you like - the isuue is there.

In the minds of a few it is. :)

[Michael Lidski]

Do you really think that pestering Canon is going to have any effect on a camera whose design is already 99% complete? Maybe they'll send you a special one for your efforts. I know that I would. :)

- Yes I do - this remaining 1% is what needs fixing to make it perfect.

[Michael Lidski]

Canon doesn't hang out here. You should write a letter to their support. ;)

- I already did, and not only me. But we need to raise awareness. Call it a crusade if you wish.

[jdizzle]

LOL! This is a joke. The 1Ds IV isn't released yet and there's banding at ISO 100? I don't even have that issue with my 1Ds MK III but, the 5d MK II does! :) ;)

[Michael Lidski]

So is this one of the situations where the shadows are clipped badly and then jacked up in post?

- No, the exposure was quite correct as you can see in the full photo. But it was contrasty lighting and shadow/highlight balancing was required. It usually is.

[TeamSpeed]

<yawn>.... we already have our own special 5DII banding thread, asking the mods to move this 1DsIV speculation to the rumors. The issue hasn't dampened the love for the 5DII and if the 1DSIV has it too, the love won't be diminished there either.

Plus we have a couple of individuals that DPReview doesn't have, we have our own resident raw/sensor/ISO experts (Panopeeper and Daniel Browning). If there are issues, they will be able to dig through the situation once raw images from the IV is available.

[Drozz119]

- apparently, there is no hope with the current models.

This makes absolutely no sense??

You keep showing 5d2 files.. Where is the proof that the 7d and 1D IV have banding? (current models)

Show Proof!

Michael.. i think i can speak for most of the members here... We will make you a deal...

If you can upload proof of banding in a 1d Mark IV and 7d in the next 5 minutes.. we will all sign your petition!

If you don't.. you have to make a "I'm a Troll" sign, hold it, take a picture of yourself and use it as your Avatar for a year.

[AdamJL]

can someone lend me mod powers for just an hour?
pleeease?

[bacchanal]

From the 1DIV raw files I've seen, there is no low ISO banding issue like w/ the 5DII.

[timnosenzo]

Plus we have a couple of individuals that DPReview doesn't have, we have our own resident raw/sensor/ISO experts (Panopeeper and Daniel Browning). If there are issues, they will be able to dig through the situation once raw images from the IV is available.

Actually I believe "Panopeeper" is a DP Review regular... FWIW.

[Drozz119]

Times Up! Get to writing

When you take the picture of yourself.. try to do it with a 5d Mark II please..

underexpose it by 11 stops and then push it in PP.. Maybe the banding will hide your identity

[woos]

I'm sorry but that guy is retarded rofl "they are sabotaging the low iso image quality!" rofl!!!

That's up there with "the world is going to end in 2012!".

The 5dmk2 files at low iso only have any issues if you really screw up the exposure and then try to go completely nuts with it in post (from the stuff i've seen posted on here), in the real world if you aren't trying to do really weird things to the files I don't think you'll have issues. However there is annoying banding at iso 12800. But that's not low iso!

The Nikon D3s has banding too! Shh, don't tell anyone. :)

The 7d, as far as I can tell, doesn't have any banding at all. At least mine doesn't. Instead of banding I get random color "splotches" when pushing iso 100 or whatever way up. Or at iso 12800. Fortunately these blotches are much less annoying than banding, so imho the iso 12800 from the 7d looks alot better than the 5dmk2 12800, but base ISO? Come on. I suppose it'd be preferable if you were trying to crank up the shadows for god-knows-what, but to say the 7d would produce a better file than the 5dmk2 at low iso would obviously be crazy nonsense, as much as those of us with the 7d would wish it were true haha.

It's like...Canon comes out with a camera with amazing IQ (the 5dmk2) and people will basically do whatever they can to find a fault with it...and now it's happening for a camera that isn't even ANNOUNCED officially yet! Nutso. lol

[bps]

Mods, please send this thread to the Rumor forum where it belongs!

[Michael Lidski]

This makes absolutely no sense??

You keep showing 5d2 files.. Where is the proof that the 7d and 1D IV have banding? (current models)

Show Proof!

Michael.. i think i can speak for most of the members here... We will make you a deal...

If you can upload proof of banding in a 1d Mark IV and 7d in the next 5 minutes.. we will all sign your petition!

If you don't.. you have to make a "I'm a Troll" sign, hold it, take a picture of yourself and use it as your Avatar for a year.

- Very strange attitude. Don't you want a better camera? Proof (quote):
"Canon seems to have lost interest in base ISO shadows of late, unfortunately. The 1D4 has banding at base ISO"

Not my words:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=34224350

[Mr. Clean]

No doubt there's something in that file. What we don't know, is how it got there, IE pushed too far in post, etc.
Got a RAW file to share?

[bacchanal]

- Very strange attitude. Don't you want a better camera? Proof (quote):
"Canon seems to have lost interest in base ISO shadows of late, unfortunately. The 1D4 has banding at base ISO"

Not my words:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=34224350

Check out these RAW files and see if you can find any significant banding:
http://www.moss-foto.com/nctest/cniso.htm

Granted they start at ISO400, but I think if there was a problem at ISO100, you'd be able to see it at 400. The proof is in the images, not some random internet quote.

[Waldemar Sikorski]

I once took a look at a human skin under the microscope. Haven't had sex since.

[RyanB]

I once took a look at a human skin under the microscope. Haven't had sex since.

Haha nice.

[Michael Lidski]

The Nikon D3s has banding too! Shh, don't tell anyone. :)


- Of course it would. But who cares about a Nikon, we are talking Canon here.

[gabebalazs]

I once took a look at a human skin under the microscope. Haven't had sex since.

LOL :D:Dbw!

[Michael Lidski]

files at low iso only have any issues if you really screw up the exposure and then try to go completely nuts with it in post

- Not my sample waterfall. Not screwed up, not over-processed.

[Ziffle]

I once took a look at a human skin under the microscope. Haven't had sex since.

yep ... LMAO!!!!!!



from lidski post.....
And somebody was saying FM and DPP forums are ... say ..... filled with dramma.....

[AdamJL]

Nah, FM's pretty good. There are a small group of uber dorks measurebating over pixels but for the most part everyone's great, friendly, helpful and the old timers there really make the place.

DPR though.. that's another story.

[Mr. Clean]

- Not my sample waterfall. Not screwed up, not over-processed.

That's why I'd like to have a RAW file...No one knows what you did to it you know?

[thatkatmat]

Let's see some banding from the 1Dmk4.....I have samples from my 5Dmk2 that piss me off, not pushed, properly exposed, but banding non the less (someone posted earlier you only get banding if the image is not exposed correctly....not so). Actually I only have a few shots out of maybe 10K that I've seen it, but still.....Would be a shame if the 1Dmk4 or Dsmk4 had it....

*******But DPR and talk is cheap, proofs in the pudding....and we have no pudding....

I suspect this is just a bunch of paranoid pixel peepers at the moment....But time will tell

[ed rader]

what a weird thread. the camera hasn't even hit the market yet :rolleyes:!

ed rader

[4x4rock]

That's it. I'm listing my 1d mkv forsale. The problem will never be fixed. :(

[Tom W]

what a weird thread. the camera hasn't even hit the market yet :rolleyes:!

ed rader

The ultimate in trolling - and I took the bait...

[Michael Lidski]

Canon comes out with a camera with amazing IQ (the 5dmk2) and people will basically do whatever they can to find a fault with it...

- I didn't do anything on purpose. There is an issue, I'm not the only one who noticed. That does not change the fact that it is the best DSLR today. This is exactly why I'm concerned.

[jwcdds]

- I didn't do anything on purpose. There is an issue, I'm not the only one who noticed. That does not change the fact that it is the best DSLR today. This is exactly why I'm concerned.

The camera is a tool. We try to get the best tool (that we can afford) to do the job we need it to do.

If you think the tool can be better. Build it (and make millions).

There may be limitations and restrictions that none of us knows about and perhaps the engineering department is willing to make some sacrifices. Regardless of what it is... if you can do better, do it.

[Michael Lidski]

I have samples from my 5Dmk2 that piss me off, not pushed, properly exposed, but banding non the less (someone posted earlier you only get banding if the image is not exposed correctly....not so). Would be a shame if the 1Dmk4 or Dsmk4 had it.... proofs in the pudding....and we have no pudding....


- When we will "have the pudding" it will be too late.

[Michael Lidski]

There may be limitations and restrictions that none of us knows about and perhaps the engineering department is willing to make some sacrifices. Regardless of what it is... if you can do better, do it.

- I don't make cameras, sorry. And the amount of money I'll have to spend on 1Ds Mark IV when it becomes available is quite enough of a "sacrifice" for me to expect "limitations and restrictions" on top of that in normal everyday shooting, thank you very much.

[jdizzle]

what a weird thread. the camera hasn't even hit the market yet :rolleyes:!

ed rader
I have a pre-production 1Ds MK IV and nobody knows that I have it. :)

[jwcdds]

- I don't make cameras, sorry. And the amount of money I'll have to spend on 1Ds Mark IV when it becomes available is quite enough of a "sacrifice" for me to expect "limitations and restrictions" on top of that in normal everyday shooting, thank you very much.

The amount of money you'll have to spend? Who is holding a gun to your head and making you "sacrifice" your money?

[Drozz119]

- Very strange attitude. Don't you want a better camera? Proof (quote):
"Canon seems to have lost interest in base ISO shadows of late, unfortunately. The 1D4 has banding at base ISO"

Not my words:


Not your words... But you decided to come over here and start a thread based upon hearsay?

Not your words... But it was your responsibility to check the validity of the statement and the reputation of the person you are quoting. Since you didn't check.. I did for you. The quote came from the same person that started the following threads:

"Holy Cow Canon" - Bashing 5d
"Holy Cow Canon part 2" - Bashing 5d2
"Canon Line Offset NOISE" - Bashing 7d (1000x zoom on top left corner of file)
"Eating Crow" - Bashing 7d and 50d, Says Canon 1.6 crop is useless
"5d2 in between line noise" - "Is canon on a suicide mission"

These go on for pages and pages all the way back to 2005 and the 10d!

Your buddy is jumping the gun.. give the 7d and 1d IV some time. Canon may or may not have fixed/improved the issue.


Please take time to read that dpreview thread attentively. Yes there is an issue.

I read his threads attentively... and yes.. you are right, there is an issue. But it has nothing to do with any cameras :D

[thatkatmat]

- When we will "have the pudding" it will be too late.

Michael, you are paranoid about something that might happen.....DPR is filled with this type of stuff, that's why I prefer it over here......
Should I call the Dr. now because monkeys might fly out of my _ _ _ tomorrow?

[Jannie]

I do know that when I finally do get my IDMKIV it will be perfect and exactly intended by Canon. And I hope to keep my perfect MKIII. But there are many who feel they must create a sense of disaster to get their juices going and I make allowances for that, it's easy to feel victimized by Big Brother but that is not what Canon is- they are simply a manufacturer who is trying to continue to be successful much like any business. They have floated to the top and there will be those who get a sense of power from doing damage by sensationalizing problem assumptions and I guess it helps their self esteem. I know, there are times I've felt like doing it because I had a problem with something and felt ripped off so I said never more will I buy their product.

Canon and Nikon both make great gear, sometimes I might not like their choices but we also have to take responsibility for pushing both of these companiesby jumping on the bandwagon of the latest model to hit the market because it has more pixels or whatever and everyone is forced to come out with something better. Like when the 5D II came out, I remember someone posted here wondering the next upgrade was going to be because he didn't want to buy one if the upgrade was going to come in the next couple of months. It had only been out for six months and in some stores only 4.

In the midst of all this it is pretty cool that the original 5D classic is still such a well respected camera and I believe a person can use nothing more for quite a few more years and still put out stunning images for publication.

I admit that I am so pleased with my MKIII that I think of it quality wise much as I did my 5D classic and a little Leary about the MKIV simply because of all this video stuff which I really don't want to be paying for but I'm sure it will be fine. If all the stuff in the white papers works as Canon presents it, I might not be buying another camera for quite a few years and if the video part isn't great what do I care, I'd probably only use it for utube fun stuff anyway if at all.

[FlyingPhotog]

http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs6/i/2005/064/c/0/Beating_A_Dead_Horse_by_livius.gif 1-SERIES

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Not your words... But you decided to come over here and start a thread based upon hearsay?

Not your words... But it was your responsibility to check the validity of the statement and the reputation of the person you are quoting. Since you didn't check.. I did for you. The quote came from the same person that started the following threads:

"Holy Cow Canon" - Bashing 5d
"Holy Cow Canon part 2" - Bashing 5d2
"Canon Line Offset NOISE" - Bashing 7d (1000x zoom on top left corner of file)
"Eating Crow" - Bashing 7d and 50d, Says Canon 1.6 crop is useless
"5d2 in between line noise" - "Is canon on a suicide mission"

These go on for pages and pages all the way back to 2005 and the 10d!

Your buddy is jumping the gun.. give the 7d and 1d IV some time. Canon may or may not have fixed/improved the issue.




I read his threads attentively... and yes.. you are right, there is an issue. But it has nothing to do with any cameras :D

I always had a thing for Sherlock holmes, well is that the new one maybe LOL

[Stealthy Ninja]

underexpose it by 11 stops and then push it in PP.. Maybe the banding will hide your identity

OIC that's the banding they're talking about?! Man... :rolleyes:

Blaming the camera for exposure mistakes... right on dudes. :lol:

I'll just back that up with a quote from that "other forum"
I've managed to stay away from the Horrible Awful Banding On The 5D2 threads for well over a week. Life goes on.
Came back today and I read that people are looking for great image quality when they:
push by 11 stops (!) in post.
use fill at 40
use fill at 80 (!)
Which brings to mind some analogies:
New car buyer: "My car is defective. When I drive it through the sharp turn at 100 mph it goes off the road!"
New airplane buyer: "My airplane is defective. When I try to fly it at 15mph it crashes!"
New stereo system buyer: "My system is defective. When I turn the volume up to maximum and sit six inches from the speaker the sound hurts my ears!"
Food buyer: "This ice cream is defective. If I eat a gallon at once I feel sick! My mouth freezes! And I gain weight!"


One more thing... good thing I got some new crystal glasses at christmas to go with this whine!


OH NOES! It's TRUE!

Look at this before and after from a 5D markII RAW I took and tell me there isn't banding!

[Drozz119]

I always had a thing for Sherlock holmes, well is that the new one maybe LOL

Haha! Picking up a hat and pipe tomorrow.. ;)

[Drozz119]

Look at this before and after from a 5D markII RAW I took and tell me there isn't banding!

That original is too good... thats only pushed 8 stops! The Dprev photographers usually miss exposure by at least 10!

[Stealthy Ninja]

That original is too good... thats only pushed 8 stops! The Dprev photographers usually miss exposure by at least 10!

Yeah, if you angle your head just the right way you can make out the white on the ladies blouse.


:lol:

[Drozz119]

Yeah, if you angle your head just the right way you can make out the white on the ladies blouse.


:lol:

yea.. yea.. i see it :D

I hope you don't have that picture copyrighted... because it just popped up on Dpreview..

New thread title.. "5dII sucks- Random Black bar across eyes issue"

[Stealthy Ninja]

LOL. Wouldn't be surprised. ;)

Of course, now I can charge $1000000 every time someone complains about banding.

[radiohead]

Jesus, I shoot Nikon and even I can see this thread is nuts.

Who exactly is John Sheehy anyway - I can see from his posting history that he likes to claim to be an authority on sensor noise/design et al but what's his background? Where does he derive this authority from, beyond a photo of someone wearing a mask? What are his credentials?

In my experience every digital camera can be made to show banding at some ISO, in some conditions. So what? It's generally when the photographer hasn't exposed the shot properly in the first place, or where they're whining about a shadow area blown up to 150% that a) most likely won't ever be printed anyway, and b) most likely won't show in print even if it is.

So - ask yourself who these people are? Are they people to be listened to? Are they photographers or simply people who like to sit in forums and look for micro-issues, before turning those micro-issues into some enormous problem. I honestly think they get a rise from it.

The 1D4 will probably show banding at some ISO, in some condition that you may or may not run into. Just like, whisper it, every other DSLR.

But at least wait until there are actual images showing where it might happen rather than showing images from a completely different camera as some kind of 'proof' - that's just laughable.

[Lazuka]

Guy-1, OP-0.

[Michael Lidski]

I do know that when I finally do get my IDMKIV it will be perfect and exactly intended by Canon. And I hope to keep my perfect MKIII. But there are many who feel they must create a sense of disaster to get their juices going and I make allowances for that, it's easy to feel victimized by Big Brother but that is not what Canon i

- I'm sorry, that has simply nothing to do with me or what I say. I NOTICED the issue in some of my PERFECTLY exposed and NOT overprocessed photos. Then I found out that I'm not the only one. It is not a disaster. It is simply annoying. I think it is a valid question to be raised. I don't understand why all you people are attacking ME who only wants a better camera for all of us? For what? To what end? Do you realize that what happenned was that Canon either made a mistake in R&D or deliberately went for a compromise which results in something that we cannot possibly overcome with technique, unless we bracket for every contrasty shot and HDR later (which is simply not always possible)? Everybody here is calling me names and making fun of me and saying something about 11 stops - come on guys, what 11 stops? 10 percent shadow/highlight control!

[Michael Lidski]

Not your words... But you decided to come over here and start a thread based upon hearsay?

- Not on hearsay - on the very real and unpleasant thing that I first saw in some of my photos and then found out to be a known issue.

Your buddy is jumping the gun.. give the 7d and 1d IV some time. Canon may or may not have fixed/improved the issue.

- He is not my buddy same as you are not my buddy - and he is not the only one who says there is an issue. As well as I'm not the only one. Check the poll thread. You seem to admit the issue is there yourself. 5D Mark II image quality is by definition better than either 1Ds Mark III (because 5D Mark II is a later model) or 7D (because FF is always better than cropped sensor). I cannot check 1D Mark IV because it is not physically in my country yet. As for Nikon, I've shown identically shot samples printed off D3x and 5D Mark II to several different people and they all said Canon looks better without knowing what they were comparing even. Which means IMHO that Canon 5D Mark II is the best in image quality today. But for the issue we are discussing here. Why is it so wrong for me to assume that it may appear in the future 1Ds Mark IV and voice my concern?

[Michael Lidski]

most likely won't show in print even if it is...
micro-issues... turning those micro-issues into some enormous problem.

- Well it is clearly visible in a print size 4x6 (10x15cm) made from a properly exposed and not overprocessed photo. Hardly a "micro" issue?

[radiohead]

- Well it is clearly visible in a print size 4x6 (10x15cm) made from a properly exposed and not overprocessed photo. Hardly a "micro" issue?

And this is with a 1D Mark IV?

[Michael Lidski]

Please read my previous post, thank you.

[Michael Lidski]

That's why I'd like to have a RAW file...No one knows what you did to it you know?

- I can tell you exactly what is enough to do to it for the issue to appear in shadows and gradients (like clouds). In DPP, set mode to Landscape, now, having a contrasty scene, put the Contrast to -1, Highlights to -1, Shadows to +1 - voila! A much better looking photo overall but - noise and banding visibly appear. Try it and you'll see.

[radiohead]

Right - so it's ENTIRELY hypothetical at this point?

Am I correct in saying that. You have neither a 1D IV or a 1Ds IV (that isn't even announced, yet alone available to buy).

[jdizzle]

Thank God this post is in the right place finally. :)

[blackshadow]

I jumped into my Delorean and fired up the old flux capacitor and took a little trip.

I can confirm there is some slight banding with the 1Ds Mark IV at ISO 100 but Canon really got their act together and fixed everything in the 1Ds Mark V.

[Tom W]

Look at this before and after from a 5D markII RAW I took and tell me there isn't banding!

The eyes are obviously underexposed....
;)

[bigrob]

I NOTICED the issue in some of my PERFECTLY exposed and NOT overprocessed photos.

Do you mean PROBLEM ?

[Drozz119]

- Not on hearsay - on the very real and unpleasant thing that I first saw in some of my photos and then found out to be a known issue.

I think you're missing the point. We are talking about the 7d and 1d4. You cant assume the 1Ds IV has it if it was fixed in the 7d and or 1d IV.



- He is not my buddy same as you are not my buddy -
Your only Factual statement in this thread :D



You seem to admit the issue is there yourself.

Here was my take on it back in September when these threads starting popping up..

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=8622622&postcount=121

I have never seen it! I've processed thousands of 5d2 raw files. But, i'll usually only push 1-2 stops.

Not to say others haven't seen it. I'm sure you can see it under a microscope.

Go out and enjoy your camera! Thousands of Professionals are out taking unbelievable pictures with the 5d2... and NONE of them are on here complaining about banding. And guess what.. either are their clients.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

I'm shocked this thread is still going! :rolleyes:

[dphillips81]

remember the 1Ds IV is a "Professional" grade camera. if the pros are not happy with it when it does come out then Canon will fix it. Just like they did with the 1D III AF issues. It is just like anything else electronic that is put out today, there is only so much testing that you can do in a lab. once the product is in the consumers hands and getting test in the "real" world there will always be a few minor flaws that present themselves and need to be fixed.

[thatkatmat]

remember the 1Ds IV is a "Professional" grade camera. if the pros are not happy with it when it does come out then Canon will fix it. Just like they did with the 1D III AF issues. It is just like anything else electronic that is put out today, there is only so much testing that you can do in a lab. once the product is in the consumers hands and getting test in the "real" world there will always be a few minor flaws that present themselves and need to be fixed.

:shock:

[Poe]

Thanks for the laughs, eveyone! Makes my workday brighter :lol:

[Michael Lidski]

Go out and enjoy your camera! Thousands of Professionals are out taking unbelievable pictures with the 5d2.

- Why do you think that I have a 5D Mark II? I do not.

[zincozinco]

:shock:

:)!!!

[Michael Lidski]

Right - so it's ENTIRELY hypothetical at this point?

Am I correct in saying that. You have neither a 1D IV or a 1Ds IV (that isn't even announced, yet alone available to buy).

- Yes of course it is hypothetical. It only makes sense to raise hell about it while it is hypothetical. When the camera will be out it would be too late.

[Michael Lidski]

there is only so much testing that you can do in a lab. once the product is in the consumers hands and getting test in the "real" world there will always be a few minor flaws that present themselves and need to be fixed.

- Not if R&D is notified by us in advance. Oh, and BTW, FYI: my local Canon rep - when I asked him - said he has never heard of this issue before and knows nothing about it. How's that?

[Woolburr]

- Not if R&D is notified by us in advance. Oh, and BTW, FYI: my local Canon rep - when I asked him - said he has never heard of this issue before and knows nothing about it. How's that?

How could he have heard of it? You are talking about an issue that might exist on a camera that isn't in production yet. It is rather hard to take reports of issues with a camera that isn't even on the market. If you are so concerned with this....send a letter directly to Canon and demand some action from them. :rolleyes:

[geoff5093]

Michael, do you plan on buying the 1Ds Mark IV? If not, why do you care so much?

[Michael Lidski]

How could he have heard of it? You are talking about an issue that might exist on a camera that isn't in production yet.

- No, I asked him about 5D Mark II etc. A well-known issue, discussed many times.

[Michael Lidski]

Michael, do you plan on buying the 1Ds Mark IV? If not, why do you care so much?

- Of course I'll buy it the moment it becomes available. But I would hate to be disappointed. Wouldn't you?

[Mr. Clean]

- I can tell you exactly what is enough to do to it for the issue to appear in shadows and gradients (like clouds). In DPP, set mode to Landscape, now, having a contrasty scene, put the Contrast to -1, Highlights to -1, Shadows to +1 - voila! A much better looking photo overall but - noise and banding visibly appear. Try it and you'll see.

And this is with your 1D Mark IV?

[radiohead]

- Yes of course it is hypothetical. It only makes sense to raise hell about it while it is hypothetical. When the camera will be out it would be too late.

wtf?

You're raising hell about something that a) you don't see as you don't have the camera and b) may even not exist.

That strikes me as utterly pointless. Can you seriously not see that starting a thread like ;is there hope' based entirely on the opinion of someone who has no established or published credentials whatsoever (John Sheehy - no website, nothing) is almost comical? Honestly?

I'm struggling to find the words to describe how futile it is - worry about the things that exist that you can do something about. Hyper-ventilating here won't do any good.

[Michael Lidski]

And this is with your 1D Mark IV?

- Sorry, please read thread before you post - I don't have a 1D Mark IV and cannot have it because it didn't reach my country yet. Besides, I would not want it because it is not FF

[Thalagyrt]

Hey guys, the 1Ds mark X is going to have SERIOUS issues with banding at ISO 3200! EVERYONE COMPLAIN TO CANON NOW, OTHERWISE THERE'S NO HOPE!

Do you see how ridiculous that is? Your thread is equally ridiculous.

[Michael Lidski]

Hey guys, the 1Ds mark X is going to have SERIOUS issues with banding at ISO 3200! EVERYONE COMPLAIN TO CANON NOW, OTHERWISE THERE'S NO HOPE!

Do you see how ridiculous that is? Your thread is equally ridiculous.

- What you said is ridiculous. What I'm saying is not.

[Mr. Clean]

- Sorry, please read thread before you post - I don't have a 1D Mark IV and cannot have it because it didn't reach my country yet. Besides, I would not want it because it is not FF
I'm sorry, you posted 'your' waterfall pics attempting to prove that Mark IV's have a banding issue and thus, the 1DsMark IV's will also have a banding issue. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt assuming that;

-no one in their right mind would post a picture using a 5D Mark II to show a 1D Mark IV problem.

-no one in their right mind would post someone else's picture taken with a 1D Mark IV and speak as though they know how the picture was edited.

Guess what...And you give me attitude over that?

Now on to the rest.
Sure, it could have a problem. The problem with 5DII's are copy to copy, not an inherent design flaw. So I suppose we'll see when WE ALL have the Mark IV in hand.

[Mr. Clean]

AND FURTHERMORE - this thread has been moved to the RUMORS section. IE, not enough FACTS to be in the EQUIPMENT TALK section.

[Michael Lidski]

I'm sorry, you posted 'your' waterfall pics attempting to prove that Mark IV's have a banding issue and thus, the 1DsMark IV's will also have a banding issue. ... The problem with 5DII's are copy to copy, not an inherent design flaw. So I suppose we'll see when WE ALL have the Mark IV in hand.

- I posted my - yes, my - waterfall photos taken with one of the 3 different bodies - ALL 3 5D Mark II - which I tried and found they ALL have this problem. Not copy to copy - ALL 3. I never said anything about 1D Mark IV image quality. It is not an FF camera and so it may only interest me as a possible indication of what to expect from 1Ds Mark IV.

[thatkatmat]

- What you said is ridiculous. What I'm saying is not.
what he said, describes what you said perfectly....and now I will respectfully "unsubscribe" from this moronic thread.

[KCY]

Well the 50D had/has banding issues whilst the 7D does not....
So isn't equally fair to assume that since the 5D had banding issue but since the 1Ds is also FF and 1 model up (same as the 50D and 7D, same 1.6 and 1 model up)

Therefore it undeniable the 1Ds will not have banding issues :rolleyes:

Although I do lie a bit actually the 7D does have banding issues so what I just said was all a lie and the 1Ds will be a disaster.....

I mean look at my 7D (from here (http://kcyeung.smugmug.com/Other-Things/7D-Extreme-ISO-Test/)when I was bored)
I can see definite banding the 7D horrible it was only shot at ISO 204800, I can't believe in the amount of noise....and slight banding
http://kcyeung.smugmug.com/Other-Things/7D-Extreme-ISO-Test/7D-No-Noise-Reduction/20091015-0291OFF/681963116_BeX9m-L.jpg

Therefore it is now FACT :lol: and proved through logical deduction that the camera in question, which does not exist, will and will not have banding...

[Mr. Clean]

- I posted my - yes, my - waterfall photos taken with one of the 3 different bodies - ALL 3 5D Mark II - which I tried and found they ALL have this problem. Not copy to copy - ALL 3. I never said anything about 1D Mark IV image quality. It is not an FF camera and so it may only interest me as a possible indication of what to expect from 1Ds Mark IV.
So it makes sense to prove potential 1DS Mark IV issues with 5DII pictures? It doesn't, hence why there's so much pushback in this thread.

The same post processing techniques you described will not cause a banding issue with my 5D II.

[Stealthy Ninja]

- Yes of course it is hypothetical. It only makes sense to raise hell about it while it is hypothetical. When the camera will be out it would be too late.

LOL Your logic would make Mr. Spock's head explode.

For the rest:
CLICK HERE
(http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/ic/blogs/channelsurfing/uploaded_images/trolls-doll-red-hair-700670.jpg)

[Michael Lidski]

So it makes sense to prove potential 1DS Mark IV issues with 5DII pictures? It doesn't, hence why there's so much pushback in this thread.

The same post processing techniques you described will not cause a banding issue with my 5D II.

- Yes it makes sense because 5D Mark II is today the most advanced FF Canon. Pushback doesn't make sense because I'm trying to achieve something for our common benefit. Not against you, for you. As for the processing - have you really actually tried?

[Poe]

Do you even own a Canon dSLR, Michael? If so, which model?

[Stealthy Ninja]

(This post is a joke dude, I can see you have some problem with your 5DII, I personally have never seen what you have described with mine, I guess you may have a defective product as many others would agree with me. ;) ). Now enjoy being teased a little by me. :D

- Yes it makes sense because 5D Mark II is today the most advanced FF Canon. Pushback doesn't make sense because I'm trying to achieve something for our common benefit. Not against you, for you. As for the processing - have you really actually tried?

Your totally right, if we act now Canon might put a HBR (hypothetical banding reduction) button on the 1DsIV!!1 Act now my brothers! We can DO IT!

[Drozz119]

Your totally right, if we act now Canon might put a HBR (hypothetical banding reduction) button on the 1DsIV!!1 Act now my brothers! We can DO IT!


Hahaha :D

Nice touch with the vertical HBR button for the grip

[Michael Lidski]

Do you even own a Canon dSLR, Michael? If so, which model?

- I had a 5D, then a 5D Mark II, used it for 1 year, now sold it because of what we are discussing here. I'll buy 1Ds Mark IV as soon as it comes out, until then I'm renting a 1Ds Mark III.

[KCY]

boooo down with HBR ....I say we should replace it with a dedication print button :twisted:

[Mr. Clean]

- Yes it makes sense because 5D Mark II is today the most advanced FF Canon. Pushback doesn't make sense because I'm trying to achieve something for our common benefit. Not against you, for you. As for the processing - have you really actually tried?

I would argue that the 1Ds MK III is the most advanced FF camera...

I know what you're trying to do, the problem is you don't have either camera to prove it. Know what I mean?

Yes, I've done that processing, and even more so and my 5D does not band that bad unless at high ISO's or pushed to extremes. It doesn't do it as badly as the shot you posted. It's considerably less apparent. Samples posted, not the best but granted there's contrast there, processed with your settings.

[Woolburr]

Hypothetical problems with a hypothetical camera. Rise up and stop it before it comes to fruition. We must all become Noinkers!

[Michael Lidski]

I would argue that the 1Ds MK III is the most advanced FF camera.

5D Mark II was made later = more advanced, same as it was with 5D and 1Ds Mark II.

[Thalagyrt]

5D Mark II was made later = more advanced, samev as it was with 5D and 1Ds Mark II.

The nVidia GTX 240 was released after the GTX 280, so it must be more advanced! :rolleyes:

[KCY]

The nVidia GTX 240 was released after the GTX 280, so it must be more advanced! :rolleyes:

more advanced doesn't mean better ;)

as we all know now the 1ds4 will have banding so the 1ds3 >1ds4 ;):p

[Michael Lidski]

Samples posted, not the best but granted there's contrast there, processed with your settings.

- You are right, your samples do not show it. You are very lucky with your camera. I honestly tried 3 different bodies and saw the same problem.

[Mr. Clean]

5D Mark II was made later = more advanced, same as it was with 5D and 1Ds Mark II.
Later doesn't mean better. I still argue the Mark III is the better of the two and the most advanced. The 5DII has an ancient AF system for starters.
- You are right, your samples do not show it. You are very lucky with your camera. I honestly tried 3 different bodies and saw the same problem.
This is exactly what complicates matters, it's a copy variation, no design flaw. I totally understand what you're getting at but perhaps it would be better addressed if you questioned actual Mark IV owners to post pictures that would exhibit banding?

[Michael Lidski]

Later doesn't mean better. I still argue the Mark III is the better of the two and the most advanced. The 5DII has an ancient AF system for starters. ... if you questioned actual Mark IV owners to post pictures that would exhibit banding?

- Later means better in sensor technology. 5D had better noise than 1Ds Mark II, 5D Mark II has better noise than 1Ds Mark III at higher ISO. AF can be compensated with our technique (I did BIFs with 5D), but sensor faults cannot unfortunately. I am questioning Canon directly and getting up their hierarchy from one person to the next right now.

[jdizzle]

- I had a 5D, then a 5D Mark II, used it for 1 year, now sold it because of what we are discussing here. I'll buy 1Ds Mark IV as soon as it comes out, until then I'm renting a 1Ds Mark III.
The 1Ds MK III doesn't have any banding. Idk why you guys are so anal about this.

[jdizzle]

5D Mark II was made later = more advanced, same as it was with 5D and 1Ds Mark II.
I could care less if the 5D MK II is advanced. It's not a 1 Series. You can go rent one but, it'll cost you $439.00 for 1 week and that doesn't include shipping. Are you really gonna spend that kind of money to prove your point? I doubt it. :)

[Michael Lidski]

I could care less if the 5D MK II is advanced. It's not a 1 Series. You can go rent one but, it'll cost you $439.00 for 1 week and that doesn't include shipping. Are you really gonna spend that kind of money to prove your point? I doubt it. :)

- No need. This test among others clearly shows which is better - just look:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5dmarkii/page34.asp

[jdizzle]

- No need. This test among others clearly shows which is better - just look:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5dmarkii/page34.asp
I don't see anything there that proves anything. IQ is negligible between the two. The 1Ds MK III is built like a tank and will take on the elements. The AF on a 1 Series will smoke the 5D MK II anyday. If I need to get the shot, the 1Ds MK III will surely capture it and will not hiccup to focus.

[Michael Lidski]

Not negligible:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5dmarkii/page38.asp

[jdizzle]

Not negligible:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5dmarkii/page38.asp
I barely ever shoot 3200. Even though the 5D MK II might have a slight edge in IQ, who really cares? This tells me you're one of the few won't spend the money on 1Ds. I'm done with prosumer models. It's a difference between night and day. Unsubscribing to a thread that is purely moronic. :rolleyes:

[Michael Lidski]

I barely ever shoot 3200. Even though the 5D MK II might have a slight edge in IQ, who really cares? This tells me you're one of the few won't spend the money on 1Ds.

I sometimes shoot at 6400:

http://lordofthelens.zenfolio.com/img/v0/p210222929-3.jpg

And as I said before, I'm currently using 1Ds Mark III and will buy 1Ds Mark IV as soon as it becomes available.

[Stealthy Ninja]

Hahaha :D

Nice touch with the vertical HBR button for the grip

You don't want hypothetical banding in portraits now do you?! :lol:

[radiohead]

- What you said is ridiculous. What I'm saying is not.

Yes it is - and the fact that you can't see it speaks volumes.

Frankly, it's mental.

[WillOPhotos]

is this guy serial? lolz

[Stealthy Ninja]

is this guy serial? lolz

I think he's cereal, not serial... unless you mean a serial troll. :lol:

Of course, I'm not too sure if he's serious... ;)

Just kidding around. No offense to anyone. :)

All kidding aside, that comment about Hypothetical Banding is Title Fairy material if I've ever seen it!

- Yes of course it is hypothetical. It only makes sense to raise hell about it while it is hypothetical. When the camera will be out it would be too late.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=372519&stc=1&d=1244849645

May I suggest dear TF: "Raising Hypothetical Hell" or "Hypothetical Hellraiser"

[KCY]

I think he's cereal, not serial... unless you mean a serial troll. :lol:

Of course, I'm not too sure if he's serious... ;)

Just kidding around. No offense to anyone. :)

All kidding aside, that comment about Hypothetical Banding is Title Fairy material if I've ever seen it!



ay I suggest dear TF: "Raising Hypothetical Hell" or "Hypothetical Hellraiser"

You mean you want to gobble him up?? :confused::p

"Hypothetical Hellraiser" i vote for this one :D

[Stealthy Ninja]

You mean you want to gobble him up?? :confused::p

"Hypothetical Hellraiser" i vote for this one :D

No I want to put him in a bowl and pour milk on him.

Yeah, Hypothetical Hellraiser is a good one.

Oh love of my life, Ms Title Fairy, please grant us this wish! We your humble servants beseech thee.

[Michael Lidski]

You ladies and gentlemen are absolutely amazing. Unable to seriously discuss an important question. I'm wasting my time here.

[radiohead]

You;re wasting our time. The camera doesn't exist. You don't have one. Yet you seriously expect people to complain to Canon about it anyway.

[Stealthy Ninja]

You ladies and gentlemen are absolutely amazing. Unable to seriously discuss an important question. I'm wasting my time here.

Mmm you've given us a lot to think about...

However I need to go do something else right now, I'll think about your important hypothetical question later OK?! :D

[Thalagyrt]

Man, I should totally go tell Apple that the iPhone 5G sucks and I want it fixed NOW!

[radiohead]

I agree - the battery life is shocking.

[FlyingPhotog]

Mmm you've given us a lot to think about...

However I need to go do something else right now, I'll think about your important hypothetical question later OK?! :D

Remember to put the seat back down...

[J_TULLAR]

You ladies and gentlemen are absolutely amazing. Unable to seriously discuss an important question. I'm wasting my time here.

Are you serious??? You have some of the most brilliant photographers here telling you how ridiculous your post is and you still fight it??? Where do you people come from lol, actually where are you from?

[AdamJL]

Remember to put the seat back down...

:lol::lol:bw!

[Harleypugs]

Wow...I can't believe in 10 pages no one bothered to help the OP out....

OP - Sell all your digtal bodies now. Purchase a 1V or 1N camera and lots of film. Digital is not for you.

Oh yeah...delete your user account here please.....

[JWright]

I agree it's best to wait and see how things play out. Folks on DP Review and FM seem to live for this sort of thing.

Precisely why I don't go there...

wtf?

You're raising hell about something that a) you don't see as you don't have the camera and b) may even not exist.

That strikes me as utterly pointless. Can you seriously not see that starting a thread like ;is there hope' based entirely on the opinion of someone who has no established or published credentials whatsoever (John Sheehy - no website, nothing) is almost comical? Honestly?



I wonder if these guys ever take pictures just for photography's sake and not to prove some obscure point the rest of us could care less about...

[Drozz119]

OP - Sell all your digtal bodies now.

He doesn't own a camera. :D imagine that!

He had 3 5d mark ii's. Then he sold them.

He didn't have time to take pictures. He decided to dedicate his life to the betterment of Canon base ISO bandiing along with his disciple John Cheesy.


I wonder if these guys ever take pictures just for photography's sake and not to prove some obscure point the rest of us could care less about...

I wonder how many 100% crops and ISO comparisons you can fit on a 500GB Drive? :D

[Poe]

Are you serious??? You have some of the most brilliant photographers here telling you how ridiculous your post is and you still fight it??? Where do you people come from lol, actually where are you from?

From Russia, or thereabouts.