Need some help on the business side of things!

[Coppatop85]

Hey everyone, I need some help. While I'm relatively new around these parts, I have had a great opportunity for the past year to shoot for a concert venue in Massachusetts. Before I get to my main issue, I just want to thank you all for what I have learned on these forums, and in the performing arts section. You guys are very talented, and insightful, and have helped me become a better shooter.

I have been the house Photographer at Showcase Live since last January, and now this year, they want to renew, and completely change my contract. The original agreement I had with them allowed me to retain ownership/copyright of the photos, but I allowed them to use the photos at no additional cost inside the venue, and for advertising purposes. I was paid (albeit not much) per show, but I didn't really care about that. What I cared about was the opportunity to not only experience, and enjoy all different types of music, but also the freedom to photograph the bands each night. I was very lucky to be able to do this, and I know some people would kill to be in my position!

However, with the new contract, the venue said they want to own the rights to the photos. I tried to explain to them that this is almost unheard of in this realm, but they were already making out on the deal since I agreed to let them use the photos in advertisements. It doesn't look like they are going to budge, therefore, It doesn't look like I will be shooting there any longer. If I can't call my work my own, then it is not worth it.

In this time, I have built up a considerable portfolio of shots, and what I want to know is....

Is there anyway I can continue to do this elsewhere? I don't even know how or where to begin to look for work in this very specific field, especially in an area that seems to be saturated with event / music photographers (many
of which post here, and are far more talented than myself!). The first thing I am going to do is revamp/re-do/get another website and make it more "professional" looking as opposed to just a zenfolio hosting page. I am then going to work on a resume, and perhaps pick 20 or so photos and get a non-digital portfolio printed up. Where to go from there? I have no idea. Magazines? Blogs? Newspapers?

I really just want to be able to continue to shoot event and music photography, however, getting a photo pass seems very difficult unless you are "shooting for someone" in most cases. In the mean time, I might just shoot local bands at bars, because I really, really enjoy doing it. Any help or advice would be very much appreciated!

Thanks,
--Eric

[TeenPhotog]

Well I can tell you my tale. And yes I would kill to be in your spot.

I've gotten photo passes and some free tickets to a few shows just by emailing the band's management asking for a pass ect ect.

Lately I've been trying to get affiliated with local papers which are probably out of my league. The kind that would ask for a resume. So it's a stretch but my status with them is that I am shooting a show in a month and they are evaluating me on those pictures to see if they will let me basically say I'm with ******* Weekly. This I've heard works wonders and can get you in to almost any show (non arena) in your city.

I'm also in contact with a small band about doing a photoshoot, which I have never done and makes me nervous.

If I were you with the kind of experience you have, I would go to a news outlet in Mass that is big on music, make a resume and write them

Sorry if I presented nothing new, but there you go

[narlus]

it's a tough call...the venue is playing hardball, because they can. there are more shooters out there, and there will certainly be ones who don't worry about giving up their copyright.

just be aware that blogs/websites don't pay all that much if at all (and that's more common)...and the phoenix stopped paying people a while ago as well (they use college students as unpaid interns, and the quality is commensurate w/ the rate). so if you want to make even a bit of $ like yr current gig, it's not gonna be easy to find another replacement.

[Coppatop85]

Well, it looks like I might be screwed! We'll see, attempting to negociate. It's me vs. a big company with lawyers...

[narlus]

who owns Showcase, Kraft?

[Coppatop85]

who owns Showcase, Kraft?

He owns the property it is on, but the actual owners are National Amusements -- the people who run Showcase Cinemas, hence Showcase Live.


EDIT: This post is 1337!

[Compact Diss]

I feel for you man.
It's really a personal decision. Myself, I wouldn't do that, the pictures could turn out to be too important, I look at what I do as documentary photography. I would want to own what I do, what if you capture the next big thing, or something tragic (think Stevie Ray/Jim Morrison/Cobain). I wouldn't do it.

I have tried to get into local venues, to be their primary photographer, and have access to all shows, one venue agreed to a certain point. I didn't pursue it because they had hesitation on allowing me to all shows, so I didn't go forward.
You know what they did after my proposal, started a Flickr page, now any photographer gets to submit...

Best of luck man, it's a struggle for all of us. Hate that they did that to you, but they are all corporate and the lawyers understand exactly about rights to photos.

[bacchanal]

I didn't pursue it because they had hesitation on allowing me to all shows, so I didn't go forward.

I suppose you probably realize that the venue doesn't always have the ultimate word as to whether photography is allowed or not.

[Compact Diss]

I suppose you probably realize that the venue doesn't always have the ultimate word as to whether photography is allowed or not.

Yes, I understood that.

[fotografr]

You're making the correct decision to not give up your rights. We photographers really need to stick together to fight that kind of attitude and educate people about why we need to retain the rights to our work so we can make a living. If it becomes necessary, you might try to reach a compromise whereby your client gets all rights to your images for six months or a year, afterwhich the rights revert back to you. In 30 years I've never met a client who actually needed all rights forever, even though some have started out thinking they did.

My suggestion is that you consider branching out to other kinds of stage photography. If you know how to shoot bands under high contrast stage lighting conditions, you can also do other kinds of performing arts. I started out many years ago doing music shoots and while it was fun and got me into shows, I pretty quickly realized I wasn't going to make much money doing it. I started contacting local theatrical companies and before long was shooting over 20 productions a year and being paid well for it. A side advantage to doing this is that your photos end up being provided to lots of local media for publication with reviews and that keeps your name out there (insist on photo credits) which brings in other work.

[Coppatop85]

Well, I sort of worked this out. They had someone doing photos in place of me while I left who was willing to give up their rights, but they flat out told me that their work was awful, so they came back to me.

However, the other person gave up their rights, and shot for free. So, they expected me to come back, and at least shoot for free. Before I was making money per show, but not now. Kind of ****ty. However, since they aren't paying me anymore, I am only going to go to shows that I want to go to, and I told them that flat out. Before I was doing about 3 shows a week, now I will be doing 3 a month, if that.

So, I get to keep my rights, and still get to shoot, just not getting paid anymore. Hopefully I can work on this as well, but in the mean time I am not doing them any favors, and and probably just going to shoot shows I would have gone to anyways.

Meh, what are you gonna do. I need to network more!

[Compact Diss]

Meh, what are you gonna do. I need to network more!

Yep, can't do anything about it...I can only imagine the days when photographers were actually paid to do work.

[TexasPete]

I'm sorry about being late to this thread ,,, hey ho..
If you are getting a bum deal from them then can't you reciprocate and only give them a few of the evenings shots to 'own' and keep the rest for yourself,,,
surely then everyone is blissfully happy in their ignorance.
good luck ....

[ecce_lex]

Hi there. I'm a lawyer. The *ownership* of the photo sells for BIG CASH. What one should do is get paid by the client in return for letting them use the photo for a certain amount of time. It's like renting a car. I would never, ever give the copyright, unless they allow me access to all groupies, forever :)

I'm not much in photography, and I'm only at the stage where I'm allowed in sometimes (paying for my ticket, of course) but I know enough about IP never to give away copyright. I cannot stress it enough.

This is a job that's looked down upon - "he just presses the button" and making cash is practically impossible, much less living out of it. this is obviously not the case with everybody, but sure as hell seems like it for me.

G'luck.

[Coppatop85]

Ecce, thanks for the advice.

I LOVE your avatar by the way. HST forever.

[ecce_lex]

Hi Coppatop, anytime man :)

TooMuchFunClub :P