Time to make a decision

[tonytony]

Hi everybody,
I just joined this forum even if I have lurked for a while now. It is a great place and I am learning a lot. I am going to explain my situation asking for advice from you wise people. :) I really appreciate any input on this. I have a day job in a call centre (despite having a degree in Computer Science), job that I hate while I am absolutely in love with photography. I can't help but thinking all day about photography and take as many pictures as I can whenever I have a chance. My plan is to start making money out of photography till a point where I would be able to quit my day job and "bet" on photography opening a full time business as photographer.

At the moment I have a compact digital camera (Canon A80) which is great fun, but it has all the limits of compact cameras. I also have a Canon EOS 30V that I absolutely like with 2 cheap Sigma zooms (plus tripods and an EX420 Flash), but the costs of shooting films make me enjoy much less my main hobby and force me to strongly limit the "shooting sessions". I want to start putting my feet on the ladder in a serious way. I am pretty confident about my abilities and I am sure the digital "world" would help a lot to let me learn even more. Furthermore the low cost per shot is a kicker in my plan.

All great, but I have a small issue... I am not rich at all... and to switch to digital I will need a loan: this means I really have to be careful on what to buy and what not. :(

I mainly shot for stock libraries but I do also commissioned work. My main interest is focused on Potraits, Fashion, Glamour and artistic nudes. I think I will do some weddings as well. My budget will be 3000Euro, but I live in Ireland where we have a huge economical rip-off. Once again my aim is to reach professional levels with a not so big budget. In the end it's the photographer not the equipment to take the pictures :D.

My Sigma lenses won't work with the digital SLR so I have to start (almost) from scratch, at least lens wise. I have two main choices regarding the camera itself, 350D (1100 euro with the cheap kit 17-55 and 20D (1900 euro with the cheap kit 17-55). I need mainly portrait lenses but a zoom on the tele side may help as well. Lenses of my interest would be:

EF 50 1.8 MARK II - 150euro
EF 70-200MM F4L - 860euro
EF 85MM F1.8 - 530 euro
(prices taken from http://www.connscameras.ie/flat_areaEQLproductsAMPCategoryIDEQL109_entry.html )

Now considering my main subjects/usage (people photography), considering that I have to allocate at least 600 euro for a small studio lighting, I am left with 2400 euro of choice between Camera (possibly with vertical grip), Lenses and memory cards. :confused:

What would you do guys? :o Could you give me some advice/insight on my dillemas?

Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post.

Cheers,
Tony

PS: given that the 350D has no PC socket, how do you make it work with studio lights of Elinchrom or Portaflash strobes?

[tim]

Sorry mate, but I think if you want to be a processional you should allow for double to triple your budget, and 1-2 years to build up the necessary skills and experience. On top of that you need business skills too, and allow some time for your reputation to build up before you can make a living on it.

The 50mm F1.8 doesn't focus accurately, the 1.4 is much better, I get far more keepers. For weddings in a church you'll want an F2.8 zoom, the sigma's good value. The 85mm lens is a great one. You'll need a flash (eg 580EX), and a diffuser (eg LighSphere II), and maybe studio lighting, but you could get away without it. If you get away without it you might consider getting another flash or two to use in the studio, along with stands, umbrellas, soft boxes, and a way to trigger them.

Then there's the intangible to consider. If you show up as a pro with a 350D you'll have people saying "hey I have the 20D, the big brother of the camera", which won't inspire confidence in your customers, and could affect referrals or even getting the job. This isn't a popular opinion, but I believe it's an important thing for you to consider, even if you don't share the opinion.

As they say, "don't quit your day job", but I wish you good luck :)

[Michaelmjc]

I agree with Tim, I would wait a year or two and save up the money and build up your skills. The 1.8 is a good lens but I find it takes a while to autofocus and its not too good in the dark (autofocus wise).

I also agree if you show up with a 350D although its a good camera, people might have the 20D and make your potential customers go somewhere else.

Good luck with it,
Mike

[condyk]

Sorry mate, but I think if you want to be a processional you should allow for double to triple your budget, and 1-2 years to build up the necessary skills and experience. On top of that you need business skills too, and allow some time for your reputation to build up before you can make a living on it.


:rolleyes: What a downer ... give the guy a break. He didn't say I am going to give up the day job tomorrow and open a shop, he said "My plan is to start making money out of photography till a point where I would be able to quit my day job and "bet" on photography opening a full time business as photographer." which seems a sensible approach.

We should encourage his ambition and not just point out where the holes in his plan are. Anyone can do that. He's powered by an aspiration and that is often more important in self employment than being 'sensible'.

tonytony (so good they named him twice :lol: ) I know nothing about working as a photographer but do know about running a business, good and not so good sides. I suggest you focus initially on building competence and reputation within a specific niche. Maybe weddings because they can fit in with the day job. Learn everything about taking wedding shots, ask lots of questions, practice on 'wedding type' shots, analyse what results you get, go back and practice more.

Learn about marketing and promotion (they're not the same). Buy an Idiots Guide or two about running a business. What you're doing is strategising for opening a business, i.e. setting a date, being clear what the business will 'look like' and working backwards to list everything you need to do to meet that date, make all the contacts you'll need, and experiencing everything you need to experience so the transition is as seamless as possible when the day comes.

Let's say the plan is 18 months down the road ... do you want to buy the biggest and best (look at how pro I am!) body today NO! You want one to learn and experiment with and that still does a great job. Get a 300d as they're cheap and great quality. ****, get two if you're doing weddings and have a quality lens on each!

Invest more cash in long term lens purchasing because you will keep them. When you are highly competent then you can get a better body a few months before you turn pro. AND it'll be contemporary, not something you bought 18 months ago. Remember, long term STRATEGY ... not just short term satisfaction and 'looking good'.

As to 'double or triple your budget' ... cobblers :lol: You can import from the UK with no VAT/Duty issues as all EEC and buy via ebay or this forum. Look for decent SH stuff as part of the long term strategy. You could build your equipment list and then take a weekend holiday to London if you want new. Your prices look awful. Have you shopped around? Have you checked the new ebay Ireland?

So, what do you specifically need to start building competence in wedding photography? Ask here, make a short list and take it slow 'til you get some bargains. Look seriously at third part lenses AND at Canon L ... don't be closed to opportunties both offer. You may want to shortlist 3-4 options in each focal range and search for the best price from that list until myou buy according to performance and business value.

All the time, you're building your name slowly, getting references, building up the promotional side, making sure you know what competitors are doing and charging, being careful to offer quality at a fair (market led) price. Don't go for the cheap and cheerful end. Aspire to be the best not the cheapest! There is no future long term being cheap in a pro service industry. Someone will ALWAYS be cheaper along the way. You differentiate on service and services rather than price. But you also need to be competitive ... that's different!

Seems like you're already quite experienced and now you can research what gear you need in clear steps, source the best prices, being patient with your purchasing and start thinking around how to sell yourself. Remember, 'people buy people' and so invest in yourself and how your come across, what you wear, etc. Running your business is about selling ... as much as (more than!) photography. If you don't fancy that then buy a 20D and just keep it as a hobby because the business WILL fail.

Initially, your wedding customers won't know a 300D from a Kodak Brownie. If it's big and has a flash and separate lens they'll think you know what you're doing. Depends on the sector you're looking at, but in this regard I think weddings can generate cash and experience as part of your longer term business development into other niches.

Oh yes, remember to declare income for tax. As part of your long term plan having a conviction form tax evasion won't help :lol: :lol:

Good luck fella ... prove the doubters wrong. They world is full of them!

Good luck

PS: Tim had a dodgy 50mm II but he's worded it to imply that the lens ALWAYS has focus issues, tho' that was probably not the intention. Well mine is fine with no AF issues at all, so at worse there is a QA issue across samples, but it is a sound purchase at silly money. I think most owners love their 50mm and accept it's constraints.

PPS: Welcome ... the forum is great :cool:

[tim]

:rolleyes: What a downer ... give the guy a break. He didn't say I am going to give up the day job tomorrow and open a shop, he said "My plan is to start making money out of photography till a point where I would be able to quit my day job and "bet" on photography opening a full time business as photographer." which seems a sensible approach.

Reality sucks, but someone had to point it out.

As to 'double or triple your budget' ... cobblers :lol: You can import from the UK with no VAT/Duty issues as all EEC and buy via ebay or this forum. Look for decent SH stuff as part of the long term strategy. You could build your equipment list and then take a weekend holiday to London if you want new. Your prices look awful. Have you shopped around? Have you checked the new ebay Ireland?

Maybe not triple, but that budget won't cut it for pro or semi pro level equipment to go into business. It's a good start, but I want to warn Tony how much things really cost. When I bought my first SLR I thought "wow, that's expensive", and since then i've spent at least twice as much on "accessories" like lenses, memory, and numerous other items.

To get a good camera, a good set of lenses (ie not the nifty fifty, and a F2.8 zoom for dark churches, low light lens, maybe a macro which I use for cake and detail shots), a good tripod, a monopod maybe, diffusers, 6-8GB of memory, at least one good flash and maybe more, a diffuser, maybe a PC to process images, PC software like photoshop, sample albums to promote your work, a backup camera (essential for a pro), maybe studio lighting and diffusers, etc, etc, etc. I haven't added it all up, but if you were going to buy it in one hit, it would be very, very expensive. Of course you don't need it all at once: to start out you can get by with a Rebel, a 24-70 type lens, a flash, and some memory cards. Do you need a business license for your area?

Tony, I wish you good luck, and hopefully i've pointed out a few things that you perhaps didn't realise, and I hope it's helpful.

[tonytony]

Thank you for taking the time and the plunge to answer me back. I really appreciated all the inputs, the doubtful and the more hopeful. I'll definetely try to break into the market with the long term strategy because I can't really afford to fail (I have a family to substain). 18 months seems a good time but again only time will tell. For sure I'll try do to my "homeworks" as much as I can.

I am quite convinced to shop in UK (London) for the new equipment and in places like ebay Ireland for used one. I agree that Weddings can be a good source of income, even though it requires big responsability (but that's part of the business). At this point I am thinking about getting a cheaper 350D in UK and invest on some good lens. Lenses will remain in 18 months, the 350D will probably be good as a back up too. For the first 18 months I think I will use my Elan7ne/30V as backup camera for weddings.

I am going to get the 50mm 1.8 because is too inexpensive for the results which seem still pretty good. I think I'll get an EX580 and the cheap 17-55 kit... and then a good lense... good for real, one that I can still be proud of in 18 months... what would you advice? Big zoom 70-200 Sigma EX 2.8 or Canon f4 L or a good prime like an 85mm 1.8? My fear is to be "uncovered" in the medium tele area (that I love for the blurred background that you can easily achieve). Other essential lenses instead of the one above?

Thank you for the encouragement, thank you so much. And thanks as well for the warning, I need them to don't fall.

Cheers,
Tony

[condyk]

Check out the weddings area of fredmiranda.com (if not a member then register for free, no spam!) There are some very useful threads. Also, the 'Pro' area of this forum.

[tim]

The 18-55 is a good value wide lens, perhaps get a hood with it, even a cheap rubber one would do. This is especially important if you use the Lightsphere II on a bracket, pointed directly at the subject, as you'll get a lot of lens flare (I learned that one the hard way).

For your "one great lens" i'd suggest you want something in the normal range, like the 24-70L or the Tamron 28-75, most of your shots will be done with a lens in this range. I have the Tamron, it's great and great value too. I do think you should invest in a medium zoom like the Sigma 70-200 F2.8 at some point as well.

[griff2]

I think your initial lens choice is quite good: the 50 mm f/1.8 is excellent (if you get a good one) and the 85mm f/1.8 is a superb lens. At all the weddings I've attended, the photographer used a flash, so having an ultra fast long lens is a mute point; the 70-200 L f/4 is therefore also a good choice. Back in my film days I used a (well used) Canon AV-1 with a Tamron 90mm macro and a speedlight 220 EX to do amature portrait shots, I didn't try to exclusively earn a living this way, but it did earn me money. If you have the talent, it doesn't matter what you use, it's how you use it, so don't be put off by not having the latest and greatest whizz bang expensivo equipment.


Good luck.

[tim]

The only thing to be aware of is that some venues, like churches, don't allow you to use a flash during the ceremony, and even if they did you shouldn't anyway, as it's distracting from the most important part of the day.

[griff2]

The money shots won't be taken during the ceremony, they'll be taken later, and they certainly won't be taken using ambient light only.

[tim]

I personally don't like staging those shots, but yeah, it can be done.

[tonytony]

thanks guys. you are great!

[robertwgross]

The money shots won't be taken during the ceremony, they'll be taken later, and they certainly won't be taken using ambient light only.

One of the neatest wedding shots I got was during the ceremony, at the altar. There was medium ambient light on the B&G, and there was a bright stained glass window behind.

But that is the exception to the rule.

---Bob Gross---

[tonytony]

Guys do you think is it possible to specialize in portrait and fashion in the rural Ireland and making a living out of it? I am not to crazy about the "wedding specialization".

Cheers,
Tony

[condyk]

Well no one said anything about wedding specialization ... but it fits in with your current job if you do it at weekends only, brings in ready cash and gets you a foothold as part of the transition from employee to business owner.

Personally, I doubt there is demand for portrait and fashion in rural Ireland, at least sufficient to sustain a business on their own, unless you have paid off your mortgage and send the kids and wife out to work as well :lol:

BUT you really need to do the market analysis yourself by working out how far you would travel and then seeing what the opportunities are in that area, what the competition do, etc. Is there a reasonably local 'benchmark' business you could use as a model? See what they do and it's likely that if they've been going a while they'll have explored at least some of the more likely local options.

Asking here will only illicit opinion and you need to do some leg work locally. People here are mainly NOT located in rural Ireland and so don't understand the culture, the competition, what interests customers may have, attitudes, pricing, etc.

[tim]

Guys do you think is it possible to specialize in portrait and fashion in the rural Ireland and making a living out of it? I am not to crazy about the "wedding specialization".

Think of it this way: if you asked your friends, your relations, and your friends parents if they'd pay you to take photos, enough to make a living, that's probably a good sample. My guess: probably not. I lived in Ireland for a bit, and none of the people I knew there would have paid for photos. They all have digital cameras, why would they? Of course we know why, but they don't.

[condyk]

Think of it this way: if you asked your friends, your relations, and your friends parents if they'd pay you to take photos, enough to make a living, that's probably a good sample. My guess: probably not. I lived in Ireland for a bit, and none of the people I knew there would have paid for photos. They all have digital cameras, why would they? Of course we know why, but they don't.

Yes, quite right ... and even if they DO say 'yes' don't believe them. Family and friends are the worst people to ask about this kind of thing. You need to ask real potential customers. Many small businesses fail just as soon as the family/friend/immediate contacts have all bought your product or service and you then have to compete in the real world and find real customers.

That secure call centre job is suddenly starting to look real attractive :lol: I'd probably take it myself as just had a £4000 income cheque returned by my bank from a recent client of mine!!!!!!!!!!! Seems they're on the brink of closing. Self employment can really suck sometimes :evil:

[griff2]

To be honest I'd never give up my day job - I like it:mrgreen:.

For me, photography is a hobby that lets me chill out, if I get paid for it, all the better. I think many hobbies, once turned to an earning profession, cease to become enjoyable because there's so much riding on the outcome of the work.

[David1943]

I think you're placing far too much emphasis on what equipment you'll need instead of carefully considering the skills and business aspects.

Yes, you'll need a good camera body and a selection of quality lenses but these things alone won't equip you to make a living from photography. I love photography as a hobby but I do know that, as a profession, it would be one of the most demanding occupations in terms of competition and stress that anybody could take on.

Regards, David :)

[shiato storm]

tonytony, see if you can shadow a pro doing something you're interested in e.g. a wedding. ask if you can be an assistant ona number of occasions, its hard work but you'll pick up the tricks reasonably fast. then when you chose to go at it alone you then have some idea of how it all works, and not just the snapping away part but the entire 'production' including albums, extra prints etc...its all a learning curve.
I'm sure a photographer would be more than happy to have you help out. ask around there must be quite a few.
don't be put down by what people may say here - they're perhaps jealous of you trying to make a go of things (?), its tough and you need to realise this, its more than just taking pretty pictures.

[griff2]

It certainly is. At weddings, for instance you have to tightly conduct the whole photographic session. Here's an example of what the wedding photographer did at a friend's wedding:

http://www.griff2.co.uk/pictures/nicks_wedding_sharpened.jpg

This picture was completely orchestrated by the photographer (I was stood right by his side when I took this picture) although it looks very natural.

[tonytony]

Thank you all for your inputs. My ideas are slightly clearer now.
I think I have to focus on 3 main points:

- Business skills: getting as much as possible business skills, contacts, customer base, promoting and marketing, info about taxes, etc...etc...

- Equipment: get core equipment and than spend the money coming from the first earnings to buy more advanced/desired equipment. In this way, I still have to ask for a loan, but I won't need to ask for 8000Euro :-)

- Improve my craft: my current results are pretty good, but I must try to improve as much as possible, aiming at the max excellent and quality. Customers will pay me at market rates, only if my products are very good (and if I know how to promote myself, see 1st point).

In all fairness I am not completely convinced yet, regarding what I should consider as "core equipment" for stock/poirtrature/people photos... (still accepting advices on this point :-D)
But I decided that I will buy the camera equipment from www.pixmania.com (http://www.pixmania.com), lights from www.alienbees.com (http://www.alienbees.com) and memory cards from mymemory.co.uk (or ebuyer).

Once again, thank you guys.
Cheers,
Tony

[wolf]

Tony there is a lot of competition in the pro circuit and it takes a lot of dedication and hard work to make it a full time occupation.

You were mentioning that you shot stock with your A80. You should notice an increase in your sales with your new 8mp images. You can make a very good living shooting stock with an 8mp DSLR and 2 or 3 sharp lenses and a pair of strobes and light tent.
One nice thing about shooting stock compared to commissioned work is that there is no pressure to perform at 110% all the time.

Another nice thing about shooing stock is once you have built a portfolio you can go on a holiday when you want and the paychecks keep coming in while you are roaming around on some sunny beach leisurely shooting some more stock.

Trust me, you can make some good money with stock photography and without all the hassle of being a pro.

[tonytony]

Thank you for the advice wolf.
I am actually strongly thinking to concentrate on stock photography (but being always open to commissioned work). I think that you still need very hard work to make it in the stock photography world, and I documented myself a lot through websites and books (including Lee Frost's one).

I think, given the "rural" nature of Ireland, I'd probably better bet on stock photography and "fill in" with commissioned work.

Doing mainly stock photography means that:

1) DIGITAL becomes a must (I have no clients to pay the cost of negatives for me)
2) Good agencies/libraries require lots of resolution, so it means I need at least 8 megapixels or even more... it depends on the agency.

Do you know some good agency and their "requirements" in terms of MB per file? (I don't mean Corbis, Getty Images... something more approchable but still high-end market).

Thanks in advance,
Tony

[wolf]

Here are a few for you to check into.

Standard Stock House (High End):
Alamay (http://www.alamy.com/)
Shutterpoint (http://www.shutterpoint.com/)

Subscription:
AbleStock (http://www.ablestock.com/)

Micro Payment:
Dreamstime (http://www.dreamstime.com/)
iStock (http://www.istockphoto.com)
CanStock (http://www.canstockphoto.com/)

Hope this is helpful.

[Candyass]

tonytony - if wedding stuff isn't your thing, and you're in rural Ireland...why not consider specializing in rural Ireland type photos?

You could make calendars with nature shots, sheep in the pasture, a weathered but happy farmer, animals, streams, creeks, someone fly fishing, an old barn with a cat bathing in the sun, sunrise and sundown over the fields, clouds moving with rain etc. You have access to a lot of beauty right in your backyard. You could use this as a starting/trial project in your quest, giving you practice as you go. At best, you can end up with a product you can sell, at worst use it as "gift" to potential customers to show what you're capable of.

Just an idea - and good luck.

[condyk]

I knew I'd find a use for this photo eventually!!

So, you mean like this ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

EXIF
f8.0
Sigma 100-300mm f4 @ 300mm
200 ISO
Stutter 1/1000 handheld

[miklav]

<...>
I have two main choices regarding the camera itself, 350D (1100 euro with the cheap kit 17-55 and 20D (1900 euro with the cheap kit 17-55).
<...>
PS: given that the 350D has no PC socket, how do you make it work with studio lights of Elinchrom or Portaflash strobes?
I am an amateur myself thus wouldn't comment on your photography business questions. However I can give you a some technical advice:

You can buy EOS 350D from Germany - it's much cheaper there. I've just got mine (kit with 17-55 lens) for 777 Euro. There are plenty online stores in Germany selling abroad. I am sure EOS20D is cheaper there too. No gray import, we are talking about normal european package/warranty. Let me know if you need more details on that.

Talking about studio photography - the guys I've seen and the studios I tried do not really use the PC socket - instead they fire either a build-in flash or a small camera-mounted flash, and studio lights have a sensor that fires them when your small flash fires. As studio lights are much more powerful than your small flash, the small one virtually doesn't affect the light setup.

[magmac21]

If its worth anything I live in rural scotland and have just started up and did so on a ridiculously small budget but have managed to get sufficiently kitted out with camera equipment and studio lighting.The best bit of information that I came across was this guy. Email him for a quote on 20d lens kit kerso1123@msn.com (kerso1123@msn.com) and youll be pleasantly surprised.I have had my fair share of sitting on a computer in a call centre for 10 hours a day to know that its got to be worth a shot.But do all the research planning and training you can possibly do first . Good luck