New client asked for a bid.

[aepoc]

A fairly well-known hotel chain has contacted me wanting a bid for an upcoming job they have available. The information I was given is as follows: Photos of three rooms, each one is a different suite that is available. They want the photos to be used on their website. They also stated that they would like to have the rights to them, which to me, means copyright ownership handed over to them.

I'm having a little difficulty coming up with a figure because (using FotoQuote Pro) I'm not sure what it would fall under. Web.Page.Ad.Multi-National Company for 1 yr at 1/4 screen would be $1,237. ... but that doesn't quite seem like it would fit.

I'm thinking that the amount of photos isn't really the important aspect here, it's the overall job that I'm charging for. I don't have any problem giving up full rights to the photos, though I know photographers should NEVER do that. I'm alright with it because I can't come up with any reason I would ever want to use those photos for anything else... and I could really use the work. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.


- jason

[OdiN1701]

What else would you honestly use the photos for? Do you NEED them for your portfolio?

They probably aren't going to end up in Nat Geo right?

[aepoc]

No, I wouldn't need the photos for my portfolio. And they DEFINITELY will not be ending up in Nat Geo, or anything of the sort.

[OdiN1701]

I don't see the issue with giving up rights in this case. It's more commercial and not something you would later want to use in a portfolio or display in a gallery, or be considered fine art, etc.

As for what to charge, I have never done that sort of commercial work so I have no idea.

[Karl Johnston]

I wouldn't give the rights away, if anything just grant limited rights - use in the way that they want for one year, if they want to purchase unlimited rights - extra 350$
If they want exclusivity (they only have the rights to the photos) - extra $450 on top of that.

They dont need the rights, that would mean you would essentially not have portfolio rights either. For all extensive rights thereafter you would have had nothing to do with that company and its photography. No credits or port rights.

1200 for the license is not unreasonable for those rights.

1200 for the day is not unreasonable either..depending on how well you do it, but who are you to tell them where to shop.

I'd do it for 1500-2000 personally.

[aepoc]

Excellent advice here guys, thanks a lot. Karl, much appreciated. I will be trying to get some more information from the client to see if that can help me out any further. I'll try to put updates in here as well.

[tim]

Three rooms will take at least a day to photograph if you spend the time to light them well. If you want the outside well exposed as well that means shooting at dusk, which means three days. A $1000 daily rate is probably ballpark for a commercial photographer. Then there's processing time, which should be minimal.

Usage rights are sometimes included, sometimes separate. Selling copyright is rarely done.

Then again they might accept a $250 bid from someone who doesn't know what they're doing. Unless you have a good portfolio in this area you might struggle to bid high, but if you bid low it's barely worth your time.

Personally i'd probably bid US$1000, including unlimited usage rights for one year. But I don't really know anything about commercial. That's just the rate that'd make it even vaguely worth my while.

[breal101]

Karl is in the right ballpark. Hotels are one of our specialties, it can vary depending on wether the franchisee is footing the bill or corporate is paying. Corporate probably won't blink an eye at $2000 for this job. A franchisee might crap a brick. Hotels generally redecorate on a 3 to 5 year schedule so a buy out usually isn't a sticking point in these negotiations. They usually want 3 to 5 years exclusive unlimited usage. This job could easily be done in a day, we figure about two hours per room but we do this all the time, some might need longer. This all depends on having a strong portfolio in this type of work, if you don't they may not be looking to pay this kind of money.

[PhotosGuy]

Good advice above. Depending on which way the rooms face, I might try to squeeze it into two days using both sunrise & sunset. A fairly well-known hotel chain has contacted me... My first question, right after they've described the job requirements, is "What's your budget for this?". Then I have some idea if I even want the job? ;)

[breal101]

Good advice above. Depending on which way the rooms face, I might try to squeeze it into two days using both sunrise & sunset. My first question, right after they've described the job requirements, is "What's your budget for this?". Then I have some idea if I even want the job? ;)

Shooting on two different days sounds good in theory but it doesn't always work so well. Packing and unpacking gear twice for the same money is enough to nix that for me. You also have to set aside two partial days which can be a problem if a last minute booking comes up that you have to turn down. There are too many ways to get around windows, unless it's a resort with fantastic views it just isn't worth it IMO. The other problem is that the hotel will give you rooms based on what is booked at the time, sometimes you don't have a lot of choice. You're right on about asking for a budget, it can save a lot of time trying to work up a price if the budget is ridiculous in the first place.

[PhotosGuy]

Shooting on two different days sounds good in theory but it doesn't always work so well. Packing and unpacking gear twice for the same money is enough to nix that for me. Did I say that it would be for the same money? ;) You also have to set aside two partial days which can be a problem if a last minute booking comes up that you have to turn down. This is why I prefer day rates, & would only schedule 1/2 days for a good client who is in a temporary budget bind. The other problem is that the hotel will give you rooms based on what is booked at the time, sometimes you don't have a lot of choice. This is part of the pre-shoot day location check. Unless it's a convention weekend, I don't see why the hotel, who wants the shots in the first place, wouldn't reserve the rooms for you? They can write off the 'expense' to advertising.

[tcphoto1]

The phrase "all rights" is not practical. I would price it as a "buyout" and they would fall over from sticker shock. I would have a realistic conversation regarding their true needs on usage which would most likely become unlimited use on their website. If you are a good businessman, you will not leave any money on the table and not do the job if they want everything for next to nothing. If the shots turn out beautiful and you give them free use forever, they will find other uses for them and you receive no further benefit for your efforts. How much will you charge them for editing?

[breal101]

Frank, I think you missed my main point, we're not shooting film anymore, it's too easy to replace a window. To complicate things over a window doesn't make much sense to me. The only reason I find to get another room is when the sunlight is coming in too strong. I just did a shoot a few weeks ago where I had an entire floor to use. It had just been refurbished and no rooms were occupied, believe me that's an exception and not the usual situation. Hotels are great places to work but they don't communicate as well as we want sometimes. They operate 24/7 with three shifts on the desk, they don't always get the message. I couldn't count the number of times they can't even get my own reservation right. I go back to my room at the end of the day and the key card doesn't work, I'm actually surprised when it does. On more than one occasion I've opened a room to shoot and found someone's luggage there. After many years of hotel shoots I try to keep it as simple as possible. ;)

[breal101]

The phrase "all rights" is not practical. I would price it as a "buyout" and they would fall over from sticker shock. I would have a realistic conversation regarding their true needs on usage which would most likely become unlimited use on their website. If you are a good businessman, you will not leave any money on the table and not do the job if they want everything for next to nothing. If the shots turn out beautiful and you give them free use forever, they will find other uses for them and you receive no further benefit for your efforts. How much will you charge them for editing?

They know that asking for web usage is the cheapest way to go, they aren't stupid, they may very well have other uses in mind. What they really want is usage for anything they want for one price. Too many times they've been burned when they don't have unlimited use, at least that's what they tell me. You have to price it accordingly, if you want the job.

[aepoc]

I guess I never thought of them just asking for web usage because it's the cheapest, and then once (if) they get full rights just use it for whatever they want. Seems to me that if I plan for that, or at least assume, it'd be more beneficial to me to actually quote a lot higher of a price, but then I risk not getting the project.

tcphoto1 - Thanks for the advice on having a realistic conversation with them about usage; I plan on doing that as soon as I'm able to.

Anyhow... just wanted to update the thread for you all. I emailed them a week ago asking questions about what they want in the photos, if they want people in them, etc... and examples of the kinds of photos that I'm thinking the finished outcome could look like. I wanted a few days, and then called. Then called a few days after that, leaving messages each time. I received a call back stating that they're really busy right now with a convention, and that they'll get back to me next week.

Thanks again all.

- jason

[aepoc]

I still haven't heard back from the client; I'm guessing they've nixed the project. I'll keep this updated if I hear anything.