Local Rag asking for images

[cory1848]

We donated time with past weekend to photograph an event to raise money for Special olympics. We were fine with the donation and doing the work on spec. I just received an email from one of the volunteers and she works for a rather large prominent local rag with an estimate circulation of about 20k monthly. They would like to use 4-6 images for a story they are going to publish in 2 months. We were hired to cover this event.

Of course I get the "you will get credit" line in the email. With all the threads on getting published and whether that takes place of actually getting paid has me thinking. One goal this year is to get published and this would be a great magazine to start off with. Now my issue is, I would like to get paid and my instinct was to fire off an email saying "great! what is your compensation package?" but I have a strong feeling that as soon as I pop that question, they will move on and find other photos from someone else.

I was thinking $200 for each photo with a one time run license. 4-6 photos could be $1000. Money is nice, but the getting published part is also nice. I guess I am on the fence because this is a prominent rag.

So should I fire back a how much email? or supply the images and chaulk it up to free promotion? I have read through EP.com on this as well, thats where I got the average rate from. How many of you would forgo payment for publicity in a large magazine?

20k circulation includes Barnes & noble, books a million, borders, and other stores. Its not a free magazine either.

Thoughts?

[zelseman]

If they charge people that read their mag, pay their writers, and pay their printer, they should pay you.

[Karl Johnston]

I would suggest going for the gold - literally. $$$ get paid!

[Bosscat]

Money is nice, but the getting published part is also nice.

Last I checked money buys real food, whereas getting published without pay might gain you 5 places in the soup kitchen line.

[Concretin Nik]

If they charge people that read their mag, pay their writers, and pay their printer, they should pay you.
+1

Charge what you feel is reasonable. You did the work.

[Tbirder]

but I have a strong feeling that as soon as I pop that question, they will move on and find other photos from someone else.

I sit on both sides of that fence - we publish free newspapers, and I also supply copy and images to a separate ccmmunity newspaper company.

We pay for every image. Granted, it's not a lot, but the photographer feels good that his or her work has value, and is rewarded for choosing to supply us images.

Conversley, I expect to get paid by the company I supply material to. I hear you when you say how cool it would be to be published, but while it a buzz seeing your photos in a magazine, working for free doesn't pay the bills or allow you to add or upgrade camera equipment. That 'feel good' factor is a great deal better when it's followed by a check, big or small.

In your email, don't get too pushy or fancy - just ask what the publisher's standard rate is for images. Along the line of "Thanks for the opportunity, I'd be rapt to supply the images you requested. Can you please advise the exact deadline, what image specification/format you require, and also your standard rates for images."

If they want your work bad enough, they'll pay. If they don't, I'd hazard a guess and say they're probably not worth dealing with.

Of course with the 'Special Olympics' and 'volunteer' tags attached they might try and pull the 'for a good cause' card, which might make the money issue a bit more of a challenge.

Let us know how you get on, and good luck

[cory1848]

Last I checked money buys real food, whereas getting published without pay might gain you 5 places in the soup kitchen line.

Yes and that is my initial thinking as well. However, I need to also consider the networking side of this as well. What connections can be made and how can this benefit me in other ways besides money. So thats what I am wrestling with. If they say no pay, well then I have nothing out of it. No exposure no bragging rights etc.

Any suggestions on sending an email that fishes for this info without turning them completely off?

[cory1848]

I sit on both sides of that fence - we publish free newspapers, and I also supply copy and images to a separate ccmmunity newspaper company.

We pay for every image. Granted, it's not a lot, but the photographer feels good that his or her work has value, and is rewarded for choosing to supply us images.

Conversley, I expect to get paid by the company I supply material to. I hear you when you say how cool it would be to be published, but while it a buzz seeing your photos in a magazine, working for free doesn't pay the bills or allow you to add or upgrade camera equipment. That 'feel good' factor is a great deal better when it's followed by a check, big or small.

In your email, don't get too pushy or fancy - just ask what the publisher's standard rate is for images. Along the line of "Thanks for the opportunity, I'd be rapt to supply the images you requested. Can you please advise the exact deadline, what image specification/format you require, and also your standard rates for images."

If they want your work bad enough, they'll pay. If they don't, I'd hazard a guess and say they're probably not worth dealing with.

Of course with the 'Special Olympics' and 'volunteer' tags attached they might try and pull the 'for a good cause' card, which might make the money issue a bit more of a challenge.

Let us know how you get on, and good luck

Thanks! Appreciate that. Just what I am looking for...Will sleep on it and reply in the morning.

[Mike R]

When I shoot for Make A Wish, I give them the files to use for their promotion. In this economy, many charites are have a difficult time. I would give the photos to the mag BUT tell them the article MUST include a paragraph about you donating your time to the Special Olympics. People may not read the byline but they will read the article. Giving them shots for this type of article is different than any other type. Your generosity will lead to other,paying, work from people associated with the charity.

[cory1848]

When I shoot for Make A Wish, I give them the files to use for their promotion. In this economy, many charites are have a difficult time. I would give the photos to the mag BUT tell them the article MUST include a paragraph about you donating your time to the Special Olympics. People may not read the byline but they will read the article. Giving them shots for this type of article is different than any other type. Your generosity will lead to other,paying, work from people associated with the charity.

We gave a disk of images to the event and the Special Olympics for future use in any upcoming events they may run, that we dont have an issue with. You make a good point though, I am not sure if this is promotion for the event, or for the magazine. How would I find that out? I dont think I would be asking the question if it were running in the newspaper. I would probably give the files without question then, but this being a higher class rag, not so sure. Maybe I will send the suggestion email from Tbirder and see what response I get. I like the "must include paragraph" idea though. Thanks

[bigjon0107]

As far a drumming up business...i don't know about that. Ask a friend (non-photog) who took a photo in ANY magazine they read in the past month. Chances are they are not going to know, much less know to google their name, pull up their site, and the decide weather they like you or not...and all this is IF they are looking for a photographer...You are not going to get business from the magazine either, once they get it for free, that is all they will expect.

[Mike R]

We gave a disk of images to the event and the Special Olympics for future use in any upcoming events they may run, that we dont have an issue with. You make a good point though, I am not sure if this is promotion for the event, or for the magazine. How would I find that out? I dont think I would be asking the question if it were running in the newspaper. I would probably give the files without question then, but this being a higher class rag, not so sure. Maybe I will send the suggestion email from Tbirder and see what response I get. I like the "must include paragraph" idea though. Thanks

Check with your contacts at Special Olympics. If they are not behind the article, then charge.

[cory1848]

As far a drumming up business...i don't know about that. Ask a friend (non-photog) who took a photo in ANY magazine they read in the past month. Chances are they are not going to know, much less know to google their name, pull up their site, and the decide weather they like you or not...and all this is IF they are looking for a photographer...You are not going to get business from the magazine either, once they get it for free, that is all they will expect.

Not the magazine, but from other events associated with this event. Friends are not going to be the ones hiring me.

[photoguy6405]

If getting published will feel good, then being published AND being paid will feel better.

[bigjon0107]

Not the magazine, but from other events associated with this event. Friends are not going to be the ones hiring me.

Right, I was using your friends as an example of a normal person. You mentioned stuff about gaining exposure, people dont remember the name of a photog that is in a byline - usually.

[cory1848]

Right, I was using your friends as an example of a normal person. You mentioned stuff about gaining exposure, people dont remember the name of a photog that is in a byline - usually.

I completely understand what you are saying. I know there will be more events like this coming up in the future and we want to be apart of them. I am just worried that we would get a rep of hard to work with because we demand money for something that was donated to a non profit.

Another issue is that the person setting up with article, was a volunteer for the event. So I am afraid that she will pull the non profit card and that she is using her connection to further publicize this event. Hard part is trying to convey my "demand for money" in a way that doesn't burn any bridges and get us labeled as hard to work with.

[kona77]

We donated time with past weekend to photograph an event to raise money for Special olympics.

We were hired to cover this event.



I am a bit confused, please elaborate.

I would give the photos to the mag BUT tell them the article MUST include a paragraph about you donating your time to the Special Olympics.

That is an excellent suggestion, well done.

Cory,

If your donation of the photos in the magazine are going to help the Special Olympics I would probably do it as along as you take Mike's suggestion as well. When I volunteer my services I have to figure that the photos are going to be used for some type of promotion for the charity but that does not mean you have to provide any and all magazines a photo.

If you really need a photo in a magazine to add to your tear sheet then allow them a "One time use" for the photos.

If you were paid for the gig what does your written contract say about usage?

Lastly, thanks for helping out with such a great cause.:lol:

[cory1848]

I am a bit confused, please elaborate.



That is an excellent suggestion, well done.

Cory,

If your donation of the photos in the magazine are going to help the Special Olympics I would probably do it as along as you take Mike's suggestion as well. When I volunteer my services I have to figure that the photos are going to be used for some type of promotion for the charity but that does not mean you have to provide any and all magazines a photo.

If you really need a photo in a magazine to add to your tear sheet then allow them a "One time use" for the photos.

If you were paid for the gig what does your written contract say about usage?

Lastly, thanks for helping out with such a great cause.:lol:

We were not paid. We were set up to be the official event photographers for this event. Basically it was a spec job. Shoot the event for free, supply organization with photos as courtesy from us and because it was a good cause and they (special Olympics) could use photos for their future campaigns. It was contracted to the fact that what I said above and also that is any vendor that bought a booth space wanted photos, they would go to our site and buy prints for non commercial usage. Anything outside of the special olympics would have to contact us directly to set up terms of usage.

I hope I am not repeating myself as I am just trying to explain the situation better. Bottom line is that I do not want to get taken advantage of. I know the history of magazines and newspapers do just that and playing the tagline game. Trying not to become one of those that does get taken advantage of. I believe our work has value.

Now the dilemma that I have is the volunteer that was at this event also works for this magazine. Following Mike R's suggestion, I have emailed my contact with this to see who is behind the article. Its a fine line that I am walking so thats why I am looking for insight.

[Jeff]

I like the idea of asking what their "normal" compensation for using a photo is, and that you'd accept a lesser percentage of that since the original shoot is somewhat of a donated time/effort thing.

If they can't/won't pay then the "about me" paragraph is at least some form of advertising for the future...what would it cost you to advertise in their magazine?

One question you can answer silently is, are you doing this for the money, personal goal of being published, hobby, donation, other?

edit: just read your last and it explains it a little better. You should be fairly compensated as your donation ended with the SO event.

[pantherphotos]

I completely understand what you are saying. I know there will be more events like this coming up in the future and we want to be apart of them. I am just worried that we would get a rep of hard to work with because we demand money for something that was donated to a non profit.

Another issue is that the person setting up with article, was a volunteer for the event. So I am afraid that she will pull the non profit card and that she is using her connection to further publicize this event. Hard part is trying to convey my "demand for money" in a way that doesn't burn any bridges and get us labeled as hard to work with.

Donating for a non-profit organization, like the Special Olympics, and a large circulation magazine, are 2 different things. It is one thing to donate services/images to a non-profit, it is another thing for a large magazine. You should ask them what they normally pay photographers and go from there. You have a right to be compensated for the many hours it took to take the photos, and process them.

Like someone said before, if they charge for the magazine, pay writers and other staff, they need to pay you. Photo credit is NOT worth it! No one will remember you and you will not likely get any business from a photo credit. You need to figure out how much you are worth, and charge accordingly. If they say no, it is no loss to you, other than "bragging rights".

[cory1848]

Sent off email asking about rates, will update once I hear back.

[gonzogolf]

You keep referring to this as a spec job but was there any realistic hope that there would be any compensation at the end? If you donated your work to the event, (a laudable act) and allow them to use the photos for their campaigns as a donation thats fine. But in all probability this story was an extension of someone at Special Olympics working to get this published, how do you think the magazine became aware of these photos in the first place? There really isnt much news angle to this kind of story and they arent usually the kind of things that magazines run to grab profits. It seems to me to be in the spirit of your original donation to allow them to be used.

You have the right to stop the use, but how does that make you look to the folks at special olympics? Having worked with them locally they are community volunteers and they go out of their way to support those who support them.

[cory1848]

You keep referring to this as a spec job but was there any realistic hope that there would be any compensation at the end? If you donated your work to the event, (a laudable act) and allow them to use the photos for their campaigns as a donation thats fine. But in all probability this story was an extension of someone at Special Olympics working to get this published, how do you think the magazine became aware of these photos in the first place? There really isnt much news angle to this kind of story and they arent usually the kind of things that magazines run to grab profits. It seems to me to be in the spirit of your original donation to allow them to be used.

You have the right to stop the use, but how does that make you look to the folks at special olympics? Having worked with them locally they are community volunteers and they go out of their way to support those who support them.

The mag became aware of this because one of the volunteers works for the magazine. I mentioned that back in the thread. But you are right, as I just got a response from the rep.

As far as standard rates these images will be in our “Buzz” section and are usually provided at no charge by the organization wanting publicity – does that work for you? We of course give photo credit were applicable

The issue is, she is part of the organization. As far as realistic hope to get compensated? Sure, thats what working for spec means.

Everything that I have read regarding photography and editorial work goes, says to get paid, demand compensation because your work has value etc... That is supported by the different opinions in this thread alone and that is why I started this thread. Your response makes a lot of sense, I just want to this correctly.

I think I am understanding that there really isnt a way to tell in the story was initiated by the rag, or by the special olympics themselves. I could argue the point with her on payment issues and all that, but I feel that would burn bridges on both sides... Might take MikeR point on including a paragraph on my photos being donated. Ugh, not sure what to do....

[gonzogolf]

I know what spec means. But honestly where did you really thing any money was going to come from shooting this sort of event? You sort of described it earlier but honestly it didnt make any sense to me. As for how you proceed you should say "yes, you may use them with credit". The magazine is doing the Special Olympics the same sort of favor you did by giving them some free pub. Putting conditions on what you did just serves to make you look difficult. I get the point about getting paid for your work if its used for editorial purposes, but it just doesnt seem to apply here as the magazine can live nicely without you or the special olympics and might just do so if things get too difficult for them.

[cory1848]

I know what spec means. But honestly where did you really thing any money was going to come from shooting this sort of event? You sort of described it earlier but honestly it didnt make any sense to me. As for how you proceed you should say "yes, you may use them with credit". The magazine is doing the Special Olympics the same sort of favor you did by giving them some free pub. Putting conditions on what you did just serves to make you look difficult. I get the point about getting paid for your work if its used for editorial purposes, but it just doesnt seem to apply here as the magazine can live nicely without you or the special olympics and might just do so if things get too difficult for them.

See your point. But with that line of thinking, doesn't that go to support what the magazines hope to accomplish? Get everything for free and not pay what should be paid? Man, Glad I dont shoot editorial full time...

The magazine is doing them a favor yes, however they wouldnt be doing them this favor if it didnt have any benefit to them as well. Just trying to figure out whats the best way it can benefit me as well.

[Mike R]

Sounds like this is going into a section of the magazine that will only be a small mention of the event (Buzz section) I say just give them a couple of shots. Special Olympics will be greatful.

[gonzogolf]

See your point. But with that line of thinking, doesn't that go to support what the magazines hope to accomplish? Get everything for free and not pay what should be paid? Man, Glad I dont shoot editorial full time...

The magazine is doing them a favor yes, however they wouldnt be doing them this favor if it didnt have any benefit to them as well. Just trying to figure out whats the best way it can benefit me as well.

Its one of those costs of doing business, radio station does public service spots magazines and newspapers include cute community things for the goodwill of readership. Try to separate this from the article up front thats part of the meat and potatoes of the magazine. If they did a story on a local politician or a prominent businessman or even a celebrity and you had the shots then sure, get paid or withhold the work. This just doesn't get anywhere near that.

[aepoc]

Very interesting thread. I found myself in the same positiong as the OP last year at this time... and am currently in the same spot with a different magazine. I'm very interested to see how this turns out.

[GenuineRolla]

Dude, don't shoot for free. Don't be one of those photographers that do it just for being published. This isn't their first time dealing with photographers. They want YOUR work. If they wanted the work of their publisher, then they do have to pay them. You're not different, just because you took pictures.


http://www.fortysixtyphoto.com/?p=743

[MJPhotos24]

OK, I shoot editorial most of the time and gotta say some ideas of how magazines work in here is completely wrong. The first thing editors are taught is to ask for content for free, if the contributor says no they try to get you to name a price in hopes it's less than what they normally pay, if you say lower they jump on it - if you say higher they come back with lower, it's called negotiations. Most magazines (and papers) have a standard they pay and don't alter it too much, the problem is trying to figure out what it is as both are being "secretive" in the paper wants to get it cheap as possible and photographer wants to make sure they're not cheated. It's very simple of how it works overall though.

The magazine is not going to put content in their publication that they don't think is going to help sell, including charities. The whole comment about how the magazine is doing a favor by publishing an article free makes no sense, because they are using the news and event to try and sell copies of the magazine. You shot for the event, donated time and photos for their inside usage, got your write off (hopefully) and that's great - charity work in any sense is WELL worth it and suggest everyone tries to do it in some way or another if at all possible. The magazine however does not classify as charity, they are going to run an article they believe will help sell copies either way so you should be compensated. The prices mentioned earlier are not going to get paid, period! 20K copies is small! Should have a minimum in mind but ask what they usually pay as you cannot give away images free.

[cory1848]

OK, I shoot editorial most of the time and gotta say some ideas of how magazines work in here is completely wrong. The first thing editors are taught is to ask for content for free, if the contributor says no they try to get you to name a price in hopes it's less than what they normally pay, if you say lower they jump on it - if you say higher they come back with lower, it's called negotiations. Most magazines (and papers) have a standard they pay and don't alter it too much, the problem is trying to figure out what it is as both are being "secretive" in the paper wants to get it cheap as possible and photographer wants to make sure they're not cheated. It's very simple of how it works overall though.

The magazine is not going to put content in their publication that they don't think is going to help sell, including charities. The whole comment about how the magazine is doing a favor by publishing an article free makes no sense, because they are using the news and event to try and sell copies of the magazine. You shot for the event, donated time and photos for their inside usage, got your write off (hopefully) and that's great - charity work in any sense is WELL worth it and suggest everyone tries to do it in some way or another if at all possible. The magazine however does not classify as charity, they are going to run an article they believe will help sell copies either way so you should be compensated. The prices mentioned earlier are not going to get paid, period! 20K copies is small! Should have a minimum in mind but ask what they usually pay as you cannot give away images free.

I did ask and got the response as for this section, we dont pay as the organization submitting the article is the one responsible for supplying the photos. How do I argue that? I am good at arguing, but sometimes thats my problem, I argue too much and then get labeled as difficult and they move on. Where is the middle ground?

[MJPhotos24]

Definitely a tough one there because now it's the organization doing the article and having it submitted like a press release and not because the magazine wants to do it basically. It's tough because A) They're not doing the work for the article and may be giving up the space as a charity but B) are still getting profit from the sales of the magazine. The question that pops in my head is are they using it as a write off - i.e. they have this listed as advertisement space being used for charity - or are they just putting space aside for causes in each issue or when a cause comes up. If it's the first then you could get it written off to - if it's the second then now just becomes more difficult because you'd think they'd do that to help sales and help a cause.

Middle ground may be an advertisement - ask for a small space included with or by the article for an actual advertisement and not just a photo credit. This trade off is very common, happens in every business. Payment doesn't always have to be a check. I did a trade off similar for a start up magazine in their first issue, even though the ad I knew wouldn't do anything for me - just a way of helping them get off the ground (they didn't).

[photoguy6405]

OK, I shoot editorial most of the time and gotta say some ideas of how magazines work in here is completely wrong. The first thing editors are taught is to ask for content for free, if the contributor says no they try to get you to name a price in hopes it's less than what they normally pay, if you say lower they jump on it - if you say higher they come back with lower, it's called negotiations. Most magazines (and papers) have a standard they pay and don't alter it too much, the problem is trying to figure out what it is as both are being "secretive" in the paper wants to get it cheap as possible and photographer wants to make sure they're not cheated. It's very simple of how it works overall though.
This is a very good thumbnail sketch of how negotiations go. I like it.

I do think it's rude and uncalled for to actually ask for the photos for free, though, if they are normally willing to pay. I'm sure they don't ask for their office furniture for free when they buy new desks and such.

[skifurthur]

I work with a numer of major charities and shoot events for them so that they can document the event via their blogs, newletters, and sometimes provide photos to media organizations that do stories about the events. As part of my donation, which in turn helps the organization get more donations, I always provide photos to media organizations free of charge as long as I get a byline. When a band donates its time to a cause, I will provide web images, free of charge, as well. My contract does read that other uses for a band, ie: merchandise, cd booklets, etc, is not covered and a licence will need to be negotiated. I find it in bad form to donate your time and then ask for compensation if a media source decides to cover that event. I'm sure part of the reason you were given "official" status was so Special Olympics had images to provide to the media.

[cory1848]

I work with a numer of major charities and shoot events for them so that they can document the event via their blogs, newletters, and sometimes provide photos to media organizations that do stories about the events. As part of my donation, which in turn helps the organization get more donations, I always provide photos to media organizations free of charge as long as I get a byline. When a band donates its time to a cause, I will provide web images, free of charge, as well. My contract does read that other uses for a band, ie: merchandise, cd booklets, etc, is not covered and a licence will need to be negotiated. I find it in bad form to donate your time and then ask for compensation if a media source decides to cover that event. I'm sure part of the reason you were given "official" status was so Special Olympics had images to provide to the media.

Its not the Special Olympics asking for the media...its the magazine wanting to run the story. I have already supplied the Special Olympics with those images and with the understanding that they can do that for their own promotion. From what I am hearing is that the magazine initiated this story, not the S.O. asking for publicity. So when the magazine is wanting to run the story, they are obviously benefitting from it in terms of readership. The way I see it, is that if this event flopped, and the turn out was bad, no media would be pursuing this. But since it was very good, they want to jump on the bandwagon to get their name in it. I didnt see them offering to run a story prior to the event to help get more people out there... so that is my reasoning.

I am still waiting to hear back from them, which wont be until Monday. But if they agree to mention my company in the actual article in addition to tag line, then I will let it go.

[skifurthur]

Its not the Special Olympics asking for the media...its the magazine wanting to run the story. I have already supplied the Special Olympics with those images and with the understanding that they can do that for their own promotion. From what I am hearing is that the magazine initiated this story, not the S.O. asking for publicity. So when the magazine is wanting to run the story, they are obviously benefitting from it in terms of readership. The way I see it, is that if this event flopped, and the turn out was bad, no media would be pursuing this. But since it was very good, they want to jump on the bandwagon to get their name in it. I didnt see them offering to run a story prior to the event to help get more people out there... so that is my reasoning.

I am still waiting to hear back from them, which wont be until Monday. But if they agree to mention my company in the actual article in addition to tag line, then I will let it go.

While a magazine always wants stories that draw more readership, by running a story, even after the event, it draws attention to the charity in a positive way. I don't see this as jumping on the bandwagon because the event was a sucess. I am sure that the Special Olympics will get more exposure and, by extension, more donations because of the article. If one of the volunteers works at the publication I would bet that she initiated the article by talking about the event in her excitement from being involved in it and saying something like, " why don't you do a story about this event I was involved in?"

I also provide images directly to the charities I work with but when a media publication comes knocking they always point the publication to me to provide the images. Sometimes it's a simple matter of me being better able to provide the image in the format needed for print, or that the organization doesn't completely speak publication-speak. Either way, I consider it part of the deal to provide those images.

On the business side, having the publication speaking directly to me opens up a marketing situation of having both the publication and myself now knowing a contact for future work. But I consider that a bonus and the original donation of my services the main prize.

[asnucins]

Yes and that is my initial thinking as well. However, I need to also consider the networking side of this as well. What connections can be made and how can this benefit me in other ways besides money. So thats what I am wrestling with. If they say no pay, well then I have nothing out of it. No exposure no bragging rights etc.

Any suggestions on sending an email that fishes for this info without turning them completely off?


Its this mentality that drags down prices and allows people to assume photographers will 'give it up' for free. Sigh :( Your works is valuable, your time is valuable, they should pay you for good work.

[cory1848]

Its this mentality that drags down prices and allows people to assume photographers will 'give it up' for free. Sigh :( Your works is valuable, your time is valuable, they should pay you for good work.

And there lies the problem and why I posted the thread. Half say what you have said, the other half say the opposite. Both sides have valid reasons which make sense. I am on the fence since I dont have experience with this type of situation...

[Bearmann]

This is an interesting thread, and I'm curious as to what the final outcome will be. I really think skifurther has put forth the most persuasive argument. I have shot for a large charity with other photographers as a donation, and my shots have been used in the local city magazine in a feature story which runs about one month before the next year's annual event. I do not get get paid nor do the other photographers. I think when you donate to the charity, it includes all promotional uses of the images such as magazine and newspaper articles about the event. I strongly suspect that if you do not give them the images for free, then they will use unofficial images of the event irrespective of quality, or run the article without images. If you can get ad space or a paragraph about you in there, that's great, but I would not insist on it.

[aepoc]

Definitely an interesting thread. On a small side note, I was contacted by the magazine that I mentioned above asking for my images for free as well. They told me that "While I wish I had a budget to offer to pay a reasonable rate, I don't. Thanks for your offer and if I find myself in a position to purchase images in the future I'll definitely keep your work in mind". The 'offer' he's talking about is me discounting the price of the images a bit because the article sounded like it would be interesting to me.

Yet another company/publication running away once I ask to be compensated for my work.

[KrautFed]

And there lies the problem and why I posted the thread. Half say what you have said, the other half say the opposite. Both sides have valid reasons which make sense. I am on the fence since I dont have experience with this type of situation...

Sorry if I haven't read every word in every reply here, but I think it's going to come down to crossing your fingers and negotiating a smaller price. This may turn out to be a lesson to learn about creating rights, as in who has them, when doing charity work.

[NickJushchyshyn]

Seems to me they've named their price. Zero.
In the publication's view, this "buzz" section is a promotional service to the events and groups covered, to provide them exposure to the community. In their mind, they are not benefiting from the use of your images, so your images are of no value to the publication, so they're not interested in paying for them. Lower price or not, they're really not going to move off the zero price.

The value measurement falls to you.
1) Is this event moving you forward? Is it something you're going to want to cover again next year?
If so, you may want to consider sharing images as part of your "service" to them.

2) Are the photos you could provide genuinely useful for self promotion?
Assuming you CAN get a credit line that contains your website, are the images you're going to share the kind of images that can move you forward?
Truthfully, it's very unlikely that having your images published this way will actually generate direct referrals, but it does occasionally happen. Someone organizing a similar event might see the article and photos and contact you about covering their upcoming event .. but only if the images shared and published are really stand-out shots.

Are you offering the photos you shot from this event for sale on the web? There's a slim chance that perhaps some participants will see your pictures and web site reference in the paper and think to visit your site to see if there are any photos of themselves available?

As a stretch, having your photos in the publication does allow you to talk about them when you're already speaking to prospects for future events. Showing that you help them promote their event by providing a selection of outstanding, publication quality images that can accompany their new releases could make you more valuable in their eyes than other photographers.

3) Self value
If neither of the above items are true ... you've basically assessed that there is no business case for sharing your images ... but it doesn't have to stop there.

What was your overall goal for donating your time to this event in the first place?
What were you hoping to provide to them? What were you hoping to get from the experience?
How excited are you about covering the event and the participants?

Do you think the people in your photos get their picture in the paper very often? Would they be excited to see their photo in the paper? Do you want to be part of that experience for them or prefer to not share your images without payment?

Just some questions to consider for yourself.
Good luck!

[bongo fury]

With all the media outlets asking for and receiving free submissions from the public at large it's a really tough market anymore.

Just yesterday I was impressed with all the donated snaps from the winter storm in the Eastern US.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/02/10/nyregion/user-snow-photos.html?hp

Try your best and good luck.

[Concretin Nik]

With all the media outlets asking for and receiving free submissions from the public at large it's a really tough market anymore.

Just yesterday I was impressed with all the donated snaps from the winter storm in the Eastern US.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/02/10/nyregion/user-snow-photos.html?hp

Try your best and good luck.

HOLY $#*+!
From NYT submission site:

By submitting to us, you are promising that the content is original, doesn’t plagiarize from anyone or infringe a copyright or trademark, doesn’t violate anybody’s rights and isn’t libelous or otherwise unlawful or misleading. You are agreeing that we can use your submission in all manner and media of The New York Times and that we shall have the right to authorize third parties to do so.


I think I shall never submit photos to the NYT.

[Mike R]

HOLY $#*+!
From NYT submission site:



I think I shall never submit photos to the NYT.

I'm surprised that they don't want to receive payment for taking up space in their paper with your photo.

[del]

These sites are good for pricing etc.

http://sethresnick.com/page1A.html

http://photo.net/learn/photography-business/freelance-photography-advice/estimating-fees/

http://photo.kyodonews.com/pricing.asp

[skifurthur]

HOLY $#*+!
From NYT submission site:



I think I shall never submit photos to the NYT.

Let's be fair here. That release is for user submitted, unsolicited photos. The NYT pays fairly for photos they solicit. Apples and oranges to the original post.

[Concretin Nik]

Let's be fair here. That release is for user submitted, unsolicited photos. The NYT pays fairly for photos they solicit. Apples and oranges to the original post.

...we shall have the right to authorize third parties to do so.
I see nothing fair about that at all. It's one thing to claim "we can do whatever we want to do with your photo" but to say we can authorize others to do whatever too... that's pure crap.

But yes, a bit of a tangent from the OP.

Carry on.

[Tom Reichner]

It seems like it'd be great to get published, but as you get a little further into a photography career, you care less and less about it. Suddenly seeing your work in a prominent magazine doesn't even make you feel good anymore unless you got compensated fairly for it.

It is really embarassing when a bunch of your friends and associates say, "Hey, Cory, I saw your photos in _____ Magazine. Did they pay you for that?"

It really sucks when you have to reply, "No, they didn't pay me". Suddenly you go from feeling good about having your work "out there" to feeling crappy because everybody you know only cares about whether you got paid or not.

It's then that you realize that recognition, accolades, etc. is really meaningless.

Trust me - I've been there, and I don't want to do it again.


I was thinking $200 for each photo with a one time run license. 4-6 photos could be $1000.
This seems unrealistically high for a small local magazine with a circulation of only 20K. Way too high.

[cory1848]

Still waiting to hear back from them. They are not in any hurry thats for sure. I agree what I said about pricing. $200 is unrealistic, it was a number I threw out there without really thinking about it. That was not passed along to the magazine. Lots of great info on here from you all, thanks for that. WIll keep you posted on what happens.

[skifurthur]

I see nothing fair about that at all. It's one thing to claim "we can do whatever we want to do with your photo" but to say we can authorize others to do whatever too... that's pure crap.

But yes, a bit of a tangent from the OP.

Carry on.

The NYT makes it quite clear of the terms for user submitted photo in the "USER" area. If a user reads the release and they don't agree to it, they don't need to submit. It isn't taking money out of anyone's pocket and the photographer isn't forced to except any terms.

[Concretin Nik]

The NYT makes it quite clear of the terms for user submitted photo in the "USER" area. If a user reads the release and they don't agree to it, they don't need to submit. It isn't taking money out of anyone's pocket and the photographer isn't forced to except any terms.
True, no one is forced to submit. They are clear, and they are absolutely allowed. It's still BS for them to claim rights to transfer/distribute to third parties. I, like many here, see the various online contests purely as ways to gather photos and rights free and clear. And for a newspaper such as the NYT to do something like this is simply appalling to me.

[bongo fury]

True, no one is forced to submit. They are clear, and they are absolutely allowed. It's still BS for them to claim rights to transfer/distribute to third parties. I, like many here, see the various online contests purely as ways to gather photos and rights free and clear. And for a newspaper such as the NYT to do something like this is simply appalling to me.

Why pay for something when there are those who will donate for no monetary compensation??

[Mike R]

True, no one is forced to submit. They are clear, and they are absolutely allowed. It's still BS for them to claim rights to transfer/distribute to third parties.

I wonder if they charge the 3rd parties that they submit these photos to.

[RDKirk]

I wonder if they charge the 3rd parties that they submit these photos to.

Yes, they do. On one hand, it makes necessary business sense that they do charge, because the act of transmitting it to someone costs them in labor and bandwidth. Whether they charge more than it costs depends on whether they've decided to make that service a "profit center." I don't know their costs, so I can't tell from the charge.