Sad day. Vancouver already claims one life

[AdamLewis]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/sports/olympics/13luge.html?hp

Sometimes you just need to stop and think when is it too much...
Everyone knows this track is unsafe. I hope they just cancel luge this year.

[Huskers69]

Bobsled is going to be scary too. A number of athletes have raised questions about the safety of this super fast track. skeleton racers can "starfish" to correct themselves, but luge and bobsled are going to be a scary deal. Peter Parks/AFP/Getty Images got some unbelievable images of the crash. He was going 144 kph (89+ mph) RIP Nodar Kumaritashvili !!!!

[DDCSD]

Wow. CBS News just showed the video of the crash and some stills. Incredible. That was one of the more awful things I've ever seen.

There has to be a point that more speed isn't good for the sport. Its not like they have a car chassis or anything to protect them.

[blackhawk]

Didn't suffer and KIA... best way to go.
No worries.

R.I.P.

[Biffbradford]

Very sad. He surely didn't suffer. RIP

Maybe they can put up a Plexiglas wall over those pillars?

[AdamLewis]

Very sad. He surely didn't suffer. RIP

Maybe they can put up a Plexiglas wall over those pillars?

They need to do something like raising that wall or they need to shut it down. That wasnt the only guy that wrecked. Even the gold medal favorite fell out and lost control.

[primoz]

I'm sure this will sound bad, but unfortunately that's reality... It's not the course, it's not even human error (at least as far as luge guy goes), but it's error in rules and error in perception of specific things. Most of people who were never in pro sport won't understand this what I will say now, hell... even some who were will not understand it, or at least won't agree with me, but what the hell...
To be honest, I have been waiting this day for years, but I was always hoping I'm wrong, and it will never come to such thing. Olympics are top sporting event of mankind, and this is first part of problem. On one side you have group of people, who push rule that Olympics are open for everyone, and everyone with 2 minutes time should be allowed to compete on Olympics (badly said, but in some cases this is exactly true). Then on the other side, you have group of people who is telling, that because Olympics are most important sport event, tracks should be done so, that only really best ones have chance to win. These two things just don't go together.
Since I was all my life in skiing (including 20 years of racing myself), and I have no idea about luge, I will be talking about skiing. But in general things are very very similar in every sport, so I don't think it's much different in luge either.
Anyway... few Olympics back, men (or women) downhill course (most demanding or at least most dangerous discipline in alpine skiing) was carried out on easy courses. This way you were getting winners who otherwise wouldn't end up not even in top 10. Is this fair? Not for me at least. Medals should be split between really best athletes, and not between someone who just got lucky. Lately trend of easy courses is going away, and for last 2 or 3 Olympics and World championships, DH courses are considered as most demanding courses on pair with traditionally hardest downhills on World cup likes Bormio, Wengen on Kitzbuhel. This way best skier gets medal, but on the other side, people who come there just to show up and "to participate", and they hardly know how to stand on skis, are in life danger on such courses... literally.
So my solution for this is, to set some limits. And not limits like they are now, when in alpine skiing anyone with better then 125 FIS points can compete. I don't know how many of you are familiar with FIS points, but in reality getting 125 FIS points means pretty much showing up on race, and somehow getting down, even if butt sliding. I was never anything great in my racing days, yet I was still around 30 FIS points (lower the number, better you are, so top guys on World cup are somewhere between 1 and 5 points). With cross country skiing, this limit for Olympics is 300 FIS points. So with limits like this, and with courses they are lately, we can expect such bad news in future too.

[blackhawk]

This accident was preventable, but bound to happen due to terrible track design.
The ABC vid clip of this accident clearly shows how bad the track design is... WTF?

[Biffbradford]

Crashing is acceptable. Dying is not.

I think he ended up on some crazy line that nobody ever anticipated and it was a tragic accident. Maybe if he was going 5kph slower, he wouldn't have cleared the wall at all, but of course, speed is the name of the game.

As much as you plan on covering every safety concern conceivable, something will happen completely unexpected and tragedy occurs. What if a speed skater (Olympic class now), slips on the ice, his his head, and dies? Who would expect that? Should they all wear helmets? :confused:

[Persephone]

When i saw the pictures in the paper it made me feel queasy and sick...that's just insane, the sequence of photos, and very surreal, how he flew up and his head landing on the steel...ugh. It makes me feel queasy to just write this out.

[Todd Lambert]

Yeah, I smell a major lawsuit.

I can't believe how bad the design of this track is. Who the hell puts exposed steel I-Beams within feet of the track, in one of the fastest sections of the course? WTF!

I saw the video and at least you can say he did not suffer. He was pretty much gone on impact.

Sad sad stuff, and will forever taint this Olympics, I'm afraid.

[tfd888]

Yeah, I smell a major lawsuit.

I can't believe how bad the design of this track is. Who the hell puts exposed steel I-Beams within feet of the track, in one of the fastest sections of the course? WTF!

I saw the video and at least you can say he did not suffer. He was pretty much gone on impact.

Sad sad stuff, and will forever taint this Olympics, I'm afraid.

I was wondering the same thing. They said they were going to raise the wall in that section but still have done nothing about those steel I-Beams :confused:

RIP Nomar Kumaritashvili.

[primoz]

It's easy to be smart now. Who the hell puts exposed steel feet of the track? Realistically there's very very small chance that anyone would hit those poles. They were on outside of the track, on the end of corner so in reality it was pretty much impossible to hit them. If you actually look at video of his crash, he didn't go straight to those poles. He actually bounced to outside part from inside wall.... not something you see everyday. There's 1000s of things that can happen, but there's just no way to be ready for every single one. You put protection to critical ones, the ones where there are realistic chances that something might go wrong. But it's impossible to make things 100% safe. Also from athletes, who had WC runs down then course last year, noone was complaining about this last corner. They were mostly complaining about two corners before this.
There was talk with one of our luge riders yesterday (he didn't qualify for Vancouver, but was there on WC races last winter), and it came to why riders don't boycott something like this, he said that most of people who are complaining are those from smaller teams and who are normally somewhere behind in result lists. Big names never complain. And reason? By his words, because they have so many runs and so much experience, that they can handle every course. And here we are back to this what I was writing yesterday.... As long as everyone with 2 minutes time can go and compete, such tragedies will be happening... unfortunately.

[Zivnuska]

I totally and unequivocally reject the notion that because something allegedly cannot be 100% safe, then that claim should be allowed to stifle attempts to make things safer and safer.

[gjl711]

...Who the hell puts exposed steel I-Beams within feet of the track, in one of the fastest sections of the course? WTF!....
That was my feeling exactly. Loosing control and crashing is one thing, but not fatal if confined to the track. A design where leaving the track is easy and then to put posts there is just plain poor design.

[Biffbradford]

I totally and unequivocally reject the notion that because something allegedly cannot be 100% safe, then that claim should be allowed to stifle attempts to make things safer and safer.

Walking to your mailbox is not 100% safe. People have been killed just doing that.

[Zivnuska]

Walking to your mailbox is not 100% safe. People have been killed just doing that.


Remember Dale Earnhardt? He was the guy who said the two NASCAR drivers who wore HANS devices should "Wear turpentine rags around their ankles to keep the ants from biting their candy asses." He showed them! No HANS device for tough guy Dale. He had defective safety belts too. Tough guy.

[blackhawk]

Remember Dale Earnhardt? He was the guy who said the two NASCAR drivers who wore HANS devices should "Wear turpentine rags around their ankles to keep the ants from biting their candy asses." He showed them! No HANS device for tough guy Dale. He had defective safety belts too. Tough guy.

Maybe you can brawl it out with his widow... low blow(s).

[mmahoney]

This accident was preventable, but bound to happen due to terrible track design.
The ABC vid clip of this accident clearly shows how bad the track design is... WTF?

I have to agree .. exposed steel pillars within a couple of feet of the athletes is just plain wrong, regardless of how unlikely an accident is to occur at that particular location on the track.

[SevenD]

I have to agree .. exposed steel pillars within a couple of feet of the athletes is just plain wrong, regardless of how unlikely an accident is to occur at that particular location on the track.

Have a look at the tracks at Lake Placid , St Moritz , Calgary , Salt Lake City,
Torino ,Altenberg etc. and you will see structures along all these tracks that
would stop any slider dead in their tracks if they were to get air borne and exit the track. These tracks and their accompanying structures and trees can all be seen on Youtube

Vancouver/Whistler's track has been open since 2007 ,has hosted 3 World Cup races
and had over 15,000 runs on it's track ,Mr Kumaritashvili was the first to exit the track

Tracks around the world will now all be reevaluating the safety of their tracks now that it has been shown that it is possible to have a slider bounce as high as Mr Kumaritashvili did in Whistler

I have been shooting recently at Calgary's track , and was surprised to find out that you can smell it when the bobsleighs dont have a perfect run , as they brush the fiberglass walls you can smell the track and or the sled burn from the friction , skeleton sleds running at night will produce sparks when they brush the walls
http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/7dKnight/IMG_71961a.jpg

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/7dKnight/IMG_67541a.jpg

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/7dKnight/IMG_31131a.jpg

http://i765.photobucket.com/albums/xx294/7dKnight/IMG_66511a.jpg

[Biffbradford]

That's awesome. I've gotta photograph some sliding. I bet it's tough!

[mmahoney]

Have a look at the tracks at Lake Placid , St Moritz , Calgary , Salt Lake City,
Torino ,Altenberg etc. and you will see structures along all these tracks that
would stop any slider dead in their tracks if they were to get air borne and exit the track.

Luge accidents are expected but the competitors assume they will stay on the track in the event of a mishap .. this track is the fastest in the world and the question is should it's speed require different safety measures.

Several had crashed before Kumaritashvili and changes have been made by raising the walls at the exit of curve 16 and also a change in the ice profile.

Regardless of the track it's been a horific accident and a tradegy for such a young athlete.

[SevenD]

Yeah, I smell a major lawsuit.

I can't believe how bad the design of this track is. Who the hell puts exposed steel I-Beams within feet of the track, in one of the fastest sections of the course? WTF!

Sad sad stuff, and will forever taint this Olympics, I'm afraid.

All competitors sign a wavier acknowledging they are participating at their own risk

The track was designed by Udo Gurgel a 71 year old German with 4 decades of experience, he also was the designer for 6 other tracks that have been built to host Olympic sliding events . No major injuries had happened at the track prior to Mr Kumaritashvili's death. The track has a crash ratio of I.12 % comparable to other tracks the are used for World Cup competitions.

[Todd Lambert]

A signed release doesn't mean squat plus the kids parents didn't sign it. ;-)

You can always sue for anything, anytime, regardless of what you sign.

Anyways, I'm not saying it's right, just that it seems pretty obvious to anyone watching the accident, that the track was poorly designed, or at least poorly protected. There should not be steel I-beams within feet of exposed portions of the track, no matter how dangerous or not dangerous the sport is. It's almost so obvious that it defies all logic, really.

[Biffbradford]

Did you see all the skiers crash in today's Alpine ski race (Super Combined) Or the snowboarder who got hurt on the half pipe yesterday? Will they sue because the course in the OLYMPICS is too dangerous? :D

[blackhawk]

Those poles didn't need to be there... bad design.

[primoz]

You can always sue for anything, anytime, regardless of what you sign.

Luckily only in USA.

[primoz]

Those poles didn't need to be there... bad design.
Sure they didn't need to be there, but so is also that he didn't need to be sliding down that track.
I really love to hear arguments of people, who never did any sport, and have no idea about all this. Obviously we get another fun from this Olympics, except for sport pleasure. All of a sudden everyone are safety and sport experts. :rolleyes:
Some sports are dangerous. You can make them safer, but they will never be 100% safe. When you go down the hill at 150km/h with only helmet and lycra suit on, you can hardly expect you will be 100% safe. Track is safe, end of discussion. It hosted 3 World cup races and more then 100.000 runs, and nothing happened. So this accident falls under that 0.xxx% of chances, that something will happen. Unfortunately it ended worse possible way, but athletes know this risk, and they go into this knowingly. I know this is not possible to understand for someone who was never into (pro) sport him/herself, but it is like this.

[AdamLewis]

Sure they didn't need to be there, but so is also that he didn't need to be sliding down that track.
I really love to hear arguments of people, who never did any sport, and have no idea about all this. Obviously we get another fun from this Olympics, except for sport pleasure. All of a sudden everyone are safety and sport experts. :rolleyes:
Some sports are dangerous. You can make them safer, but they will never be 100% safe. When you go down the hill at 150km/h with only helmet and lycra suit on, you can hardly expect you will be 100% safe. Track is safe, end of discussion. It hosted 3 World cup races and more then 100.000 runs, and nothing happened. So this accident falls under that 0.xxx% of chances, that something will happen. Unfortunately it ended worse possible way, but athletes know this risk, and they go into this knowingly. I know this is not possible to understand for someone who was never into (pro) sport him/herself, but it is like this.

Pretty much sums it up.

[blackhawk]

Sure they didn't need to be there, but so is also that he didn't need to be sliding down that track.
I really love to hear arguments of people, who never did any sport, and have no idea about all this. Obviously we get another fun from this Olympics, except for sport pleasure. All of a sudden everyone are safety and sport experts. :rolleyes:
Some sports are dangerous. You can make them safer, but they will never be 100% safe. When you go down the hill at 150km/h with only helmet and lycra suit on, you can hardly expect you will be 100% safe. Track is safe, end of discussion. It hosted 3 World cup races and more then 100.000 runs, and nothing happened. So this accident falls under that 0.xxx% of chances, that something will happen. Unfortunately it ended worse possible way, but athletes know this risk, and they go into this knowingly. I know this is not possible to understand for someone who was never into (pro) sport him/herself, but it is like this.

It really doesn't matter how he got into the position he did... dah... what made it fatal were the unpadded, no hay bails, time to die poles.

So they do nothing and see if a few more die? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Here's a site with the vid... with sound...:cry:
http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f166/vancouver-2010-accident-new-video-sound-39489/

[paraphysis]

Luckily only in USA.

Too bad for those of us in USA

I'm surprised there aren't more fatalities when you are traveling 85 mi/hr + on a sled down an ice track.

[gjl711]

Too bad for those of us in USA

I'm surprised there aren't more fatalities when you are traveling 85 mi/hr + on a sled down an ice track.Falling at 85 mpg is not that big of a deal. They are not falling that far and just end up sliding a couple hundred yards. Stopping in an instant from 85 to 0 is what does the damage.

[Zivnuska]

WHISTLER, British Columbia — Safety concerns at the Whistler Sliding Centre arose again Friday when Beat Hefti of Switzerland, the top-ranked bobsled driver in the world, announced that he would not compete in the two-man race after he sustained a concussion crashing during a training session run on Wednesday.


Michael Sohn/Associated Press
Many training runs for bobsled ended poorly on Wednesday.

Daniel Schmid, the pilot for Switzerland’s third sled, crashed a second time in training sessions on Friday and withdrew from the two- and four-man competitions.

Juerg Egger, Schmid’s brakeman, was transported by helicopter to Vancouver after the crash. His injuries were not labeled serious.

“He has a cervical spine injury,” said Christian Schlegel, Switzerland’s bobsled doctor. “He can walk, he has no motor function disruption.”

_______________________

"Sliding Track Too Slippery"

VANCOUVER, British Columbia - The words didn’t come from a young, inexperienced, no-shot-at-a-medal pilot. Shauna Rohbock took home silver in women’s bobsled at the Turin Games four years ago and has made the podium in three world championships. So when the American contender speaks of the dangers of the Whistler Sliding Course, she hopes officials are listening.

“It’s the speed with the back-to-back combos instead of a curve, a straightaway, a curve, a straightaway,’’ said Rohbock after her training heat in USA-1 for this week’s finals. “I think it’s more of a crashing track. I think it’s a huge possibility down there.

“It’s a bad, bad feeling, even when you do it right. When you do it right, you still feel, ‘Wow. That was bad.’ ’’

Rohbock, who won a World Cup race here last year, said she has had these concerns since testing the course for the first time nearly two years ago.

“There’s no other place in the world that you get that up and down, ’’ she said, echoing comments she made Friday, when she called the track “stupid fast.’’

Rohbock said speeds in the final turns of the 16-curve track were pushing the boundaries of what she thought she could handle.

“I wish everybody knew what we saw at the bottom,’’ said Rohbock, 32. “Your brain almost can’t catch up with what your hands need to do. I think at some point it’s going to exceed that and that’s when problems will happen.’’

Asked if she has ever experienced similar speeds, she said, “Never. St. Moritz is one of the fastest tracks, but it’s spread out.’’

Asked what changes she would make to the track, specifically to curve 13, she said, “I think if they’d just take 2 inches of cement off you’d have an easier time.’’

Rohbock and many of the women’s bobsledders got their first on-ice look at the facility during a supplemental training session Friday night. The extra session was added by international officials to help racers familiarize themselves with the demanding track. The session was added following the death of Georgian luger Nodar Kumaritashvili, who was killed when he lost control of his sled in the final curve and hit a steel pole.

Eric Pac, the driver of USA-2, shared Rohbock’s sentiments.

“It’s definitely not safe,’’ said the Farmington, Conn., native.

[AdamLewis]

And what about all the other runs that have been made on it for years prior? Did the track receive a bunch of bad press then?

[gjl711]

And what about all the other runs that have been made on it for years prior? Did the track receive a bunch of bad press then?
That same argument can be made for the Toyota problems of even the old Pinto problems. Millions of miles were put on the Toyota's or Pinto's without incident. Just a few blew up. That doesn't mean it was sage, it means that many were lucky and did not encounter the conditions that lead to a fatal end. Same with this track. Most are lucky and never encounter it's fatal flaws but it doesn't mean it's safe.

[AdamLewis]

That same argument can be made for the Toyota problems of even the old Pinto problems. Millions of miles were put on the Toyota's or Pinto's without incident. Just a few blew up. That doesn't mean it was sage, it means that many were lucky and did not encounter the conditions that lead to a fatal end. Same with this track. Most are lucky and never encounter it's fatal flaws but it doesn't mean it's safe.


The funny thing is that you are exactly right. Millions of people have driven Toyota's without a problem. Now, a handful of people have a problem and all the cars are deathtraps :rolleyes: Lets totally ignore all the people who drive the cars (race the track) and dont ever have problems because that makes total rational sense.

[Persephone]

The funny thing is that you are exactly right. Millions of people have driven Toyota's without a problem. Now, a handful of people have a problem and all the cars are deathtraps :rolleyes: Lets totally ignore all the people who drive the cars (race the track) and dont ever have problems because that makes total rational sense.

Maybe I'd grant Toyota some slack if not for the fact that internal documents etc. have shown that Toyota knew about the sudden acceleration problems for years but didn't do anything about them, or how they STILL claim that the electronics are completely flawless and are not the cause.

[tfd888]

The funny thing is that you are exactly right. Millions of people have driven Toyota's without a problem. Now, a handful of people have a problem and all the cars are deathtraps :rolleyes: Lets totally ignore all the people who drive the cars (race the track) and dont ever have problems because that makes total rational sense.

I think there're more then a handful of people having issues with the Toyota cars and that there are some very serious issues that need to be worked out on them and Toyota is still running circles about it (especially about the electronics not being the cause). Not everyone drives the same (or races) so they may not meet the conditions that may cause those problems for them but that doesn't mean that there isn't a serious problem for a large number of other people.

[blackhawk]

And what about all the other runs that have been made on it for years prior? Did the track receive a bunch of bad press then?

Watch and listen to the vid of this accident. Had those poles been shielded, no death would have occurred.
He was on a track that should have been designed to prevent exactly what happen.

What the vid... this was a totally preventable accident.

[DDCSD]

Adam, I take it you've changed your opinion since you started this thread then?

[Biffbradford]

Monday morning quarterbacking.

[primoz]

What the vid... this was a totally preventable accident.
Sure it would be... now, after it happened. Before that, they made 100.000+ runs without incident. They made probably million computer simulations and nothing showed this spot was problem. But as I wrote before... once you go down the track at 150km/h with only lycra suit and helmet on, you can never be 100% safe. And they know it. So yes if you like it or not, this accident was one of those 0.0001% chances. Afterall... 100.000+ successful runs prove exactly that.

[blackhawk]

Sure it would be... now, after it happened. Before that, they made 100.000+ runs without incident. They made probably million computer simulations and nothing showed this spot was problem. But as I wrote before... once you go down the track at 150km/h with only lycra suit and helmet on, you can never be 100% safe. And they know it. So yes if you like it or not, this accident was one of those 0.0001% chances. Afterall... 100.000+ successful runs prove exactly that.


Yes they do know it, and some don't sound to happy about this track.

What happens in NASCAR when someone dies in a similar "freak" accident?
They modify the track if possible, or put in better vehicle safety devices or restraints. Those who don't learn from history...

Accidents happen, but track deaths like this are just a waste... unless you learn from them and aggressively seek to prevent a repeat.

[Biffbradford]

They did add safety devices.

They did modify the track.

They did lower the start position.

[primoz]

That's exactly what they did. They did changes. They would do them before if they would see problems with this. As I wrote, they made thousands of runs, they made millions of computer simulations, and they made track relatively safe... until accident happened. When it happened, they fixed those things.
If NASCAR for example, would be so bulletproof safe, there wouldn't be accidents, but they still are. And they change things after accidents happen. Same goes for plane/car/whatever. When they find weak links, they make them stronger. Just as they did here. And it's really stupid to think, they made it unsafe on purpose. They did their best. Obviously it wasn't enough to prevent tragedy. Once it happened, they did everything to prevent further accidents, and considering everyone came down alive, it probably means, they did fix it... until next weird and unexpected situation will appear.

[John E]

Those poles didn't need to be there... bad design.

Agreed. They could have at least put some cheap plywood in between the beams on the corners to prevent hitting a friggen steal beam at 90 mph.

[DDCSD]

Quick question, is it 100,000 runs that this track has seen or 15,000? Both figures have been stated (by different people) and they are pretty far apart.

[Zivnuska]

The authorities tell us that the track is safe--don't worry, be happy like Mark Adams. ... ... ...

Because of its siting, the speeds that lugers can attain on this track are in excess of 150 kph. Joseph Fendt, the president of the World Luge Federation, told the Daily Telegraph in London: "It is true that we did not expect those speeds on the track but after a while we found out the track is safe for athletes."

Following the death of Nodar Kumaritashvili, the Vancouver organizing committee, Vanoc, and the international federation that governs luge racing said the track was safe. The racer, they say, failed to control his sled.

Vanoc on Tuesday declined to make officials involved in track planning available to respond to specific questions about the track's safety and planning, citing their packed Olympic schedules.



The Dutch two-man bobsleigh went off the track on Wednesday during the first official training run. The two brothers Edwin and Arnold van Calker appear to have escaped unharmed. Their bobsleigh ended up on its side in one of the lower bends of the track at Whistler.

Concerns have been expressed over the safety of the Olympic luge track near Vancouver after another accident. But Olympic officials and athletes say there is no cause for worries.

Mark Adams, a spokesperson for the IOC, dismissed claims that officials compromised athlete safety. "The unfortunate young man who lost his life, he had 26 runs (there) since mid-November," Adams said. "We think these are very sad circumstances but we are happy with the way the track is and, as I say, the federation and a vast majority of athletes are too."

The IOC and Vanoc have both said they aren't responsible for the tracks because they essentially subcontract technical specifications out to the luge and bobsleigh federations.
It's unclear whether anyone can be held legally liable. All athletes involved in the games must sign a legal liability waiver with the IOC, which says that they participate at their own risk.



_________________________

_________________________



Australian luger Hannah Campbell-Pegg, who lost control of her sled on the track last week, said: "I think they are pushing it a little too much. To what extent are we just little lemmings that they just throw down a track and we're crash-test dummies? I mean, this is our lives."

Skeleton racer Iain Roberts of New Zealand missed training heats three and four on Tuesday due to a concussion he suffered crashing on the last corner on Monday.

This left the world at a state of shock. Former luge champion and Kumaritashvili’s father states “”I’ve participated in this sport my entire life. So I know exactly what happened (to my son),” he told Radio Free Europe.
“First and foremost, 150 km/h is too fast for this sport. So this was unacceptable. And there should have been more safety measures at the luge — nets, or more cushioning around the columns.”


_____ BAKURIANI, Georgia -- The coach and uncle of the Georgian luger killed during a practice run at the Vancouver Olympics says the athlete's death has saved the lives of other competitors.
Felix Kumaritashvili (KOO'-mah-ree-tahsh-VEE'-lee) said Thursday that Olympic officials only put a safety shield on the course after his nephew Nodar's death. He says before the changes were made, the track was "unfit for competition."
___



F1's foremost champions of safety have slammed the governing body of the winter Olympic sport luge.

After young Georgian competitor Nodar Kumaritashvili died in a violent crash at the Vancouver games last week, Max Mosley and Sir Jackie Stewart blamed the safety standards of the high speed sport.

"The international Luge Federation (FIL) is where formula one was 40 years ago - the whole mindset is wrong," Mosley, the former long-time president of F1's governing FIA, told The Times.

Mosley hit out at FIL and Canadian Olympic officials' attempt to say driver error caused the crash, in which the 21-year-old died of head injuries after he left the luge course and struck a metal girder.

"Instead of seeking to blame an accident on driver error, they should be seeking to minimize the probability than an error will lead to a tragedy," said the Briton.
_____

[primoz]

Yeah Mosley is right person to quote. He should first take care of things he was responsible for for 40 years. How many people died in F1? How many people died in rally? How many people (including spectators) died in other classes under FIA? I guess a little bit more then 2 (that's current number of luge deaths in whole history).
Next to that... you were quoting only complains from athletes, who in first place shouldn't even be on that course due lack of their knowledge and experience. Every single top luge rider (except for Germans, who are a bit less technical riders, but on the other side stronger startes, which meant lower start made more chances for their medals) were complaining that new start made this track as sunday ride. But yes I agree, it was probably too much for someone without proper training. But going there without proper training has nothing to do with "unsafe" track.

[primoz]

Quick question, is it 100,000 runs that this track has seen or 15,000? Both figures have been stated (by different people) and they are pretty far apart.
I don't know. I heard 150.000. Also one of our riders (not the one who qualified for Olympics) stated 150.000. But I have no idea what is real number. But when I think now... 150.000 might be a bit high number. But even if it's "only" 15.000 runs, accident percentage is still pretty low.

[SevenD]

The straight away where the death occurred already had a raised barrier in place so as to contain the sliders to the track , this tragedy has proved the barrier was not built high enough

The pit walls found at any NASCAR or IRL track have been built to prevent cars
from leaving pit road and crashing into the pit boxes and the crew teams atop and around them. These pit walls have proved to have been built high enough........so far . The catch fencing around these tracks is NOW strong and high enough and proved to prevent a race car from entering the grandstands and hitting the fans sitting in them.....so far

[Huskers69]

Wasn't Nodar Kumaritashvili ranked 44th in the World? I could have swore I read that somewhere. It's not like he was some bum off the streets. Some of these posts make it sound like he was a worthless bum who shouldn't have been competing at all.

[Huskers69]

This was from some canada.com site, canwest news service............"The track was built for speeds of 137 km/h but racers have been hitting speeds of 20 km/h more than that."

It wasn't designed for the speeds the top lugers are achieving. Nodar was going 144.

[Zivnuska]

Interesting slide show.

http://www.nbcolympics.com/news-features/news/newsid=439241.html#crashes+force+changes+bobsled+t rack?__source=msnhomepage&GT1=39003

[Huskers69]

Now they are even altering the bobsled course. After four-man bobsleds from Croatia and Latvia crashed during training on Monday, the International Bobsleigh and Skeleton Federation postponed the remainder of the practice session.

[AdamLewis]

Adam, I take it you've changed your opinion since you started this thread then?

Yes. I was rather uneducated in the beginning. I learned some more, did some reading of my own, and changed my conclusion.

[talshadar]

Falling at 85 mpg is not that big of a deal. They are not falling that far and just end up sliding a couple hundred yards. Stopping in an instant from 85 to 0 is what does the damage.

Just like parachuting - it's not the fall that hurts - it's the sudden stop at the end.

[KarinMichelle]

And this...

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancouver/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/German-bobsledding-favorites-in-frightening-cras?urn=oly,223988

[gjl711]

And this...

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/vancouver/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/German-bobsledding-favorites-in-frightening-cras?urn=oly,223988
I saw that crash and can not put it in the same category as the luger. Crashes happen all the time, thats part of the sport and just because this particular driver has never crashed doesn't mean she never will. In this case the track did exactly what it was designed to do, contain the crash. I disagree with the sensational story, it was not frightening. The sled tipped on its side and slid contained in the track for quite a ways until eventual coming to a stop. BTW, a few runs earlier exactly the same happened to the Canadian sled, why was that not frightening?

[blackhawk]

I saw that crash and can not put it in the same category as the luger. Crashes happen all the time, thats part of the sport and just because this particular driver has never crashed doesn't mean she never will. In this case the track did exactly what it was designed to do, contain the crash. I disagree with the sensational story, it was not frightening. The sled tipped on its side and slid contained in the track for quite a ways until eventual coming to a stop. BTW, a few runs earlier exactly the same happened to the Canadian sled, why was that not frightening?

The track failed because of poor design, and/or being operated in a manner not anticipated by the designer.
One DOA... so far. Changes need to be made, obviously.

[gjl711]

The track failed because of poor design, and/or being operated in a manner not anticipated by the designer.
One DOA... so far. Changes need to be made, obviously.I don't disagree but tipping over and sliding down the track is not poor design, thats whats ment to happen. being launched out of the track is poor design, My only point was that the bob sled crashes are not the same and do not point to track failure. Crashes happen and in these cases the track worked as it should, contain the crash and let the folks slide to a stop slowly without trama.

[blackhawk]

I don't disagree but tipping over and sliding down the track is not poor design, thats whats ment to happen. being launched out of the track is poor design, My only point was that the bob sled crashes are not the same and do not point to track failure. Crashes happen and in these cases the track worked as it should, contain the crash and let the folks slide to a stop slowly without trama.

The poles are the issue. A bail of hay would have saved that man's life... that's obscene.
Those there will remember that nasty thunk sound /metallic ring far longer than they would like.

[KarinMichelle]

The poles are the issue. A bail of hay would have saved that man's life... that's obscene.
Those there will remember that nasty thunk sound /metallic ring far longer than they would like.

That is truly horrible. :(

[primoz]

The poles are the issue. A bail of hay would have saved that man's life... that's obscene.
Hitting bail of hay at 150km/h is not any better then hitting exposed steel. Let's face it once and for all... That guy was dead when he was launched out of track. Even if there would be foam or bail of hay around those poles, it still wouldn't change a thing. Hay or foam helps with car/moto racing since you have LOOOOONG sand zone which reduces your speed before you hit hay/foam/tires. In this case there was nothing to reduce speed.

[blackhawk]

Hitting bail of hay at 150km/h is not any better then hitting exposed steel. Let's face it once and for all... That guy was dead when he was launched out of track. Even if there would be foam or bail of hay around those poles, it still wouldn't change a thing. Hay or foam helps with car/moto racing since you have LOOOOONG sand zone which reduces your speed before you hit hay/foam/tires. In this case there was nothing to reduce speed.

YOUR NOT DEAD UNTIL YOU'RE DEAD!!! In this case he was alive until he hit the pole!

Yes hitting a bail of hay is far better than unyielding steel!
Hay or another form of barrier would have help turn it into a glancing, low impact blow instead of a dead stop death sentence!!!!!

People have survived free fall parachute failures, intact. That's far worse than this.

[Huskers69]

If the track was so safe by design, why did they move all the starting points down the track?? why did they change the configuration, by shaving the ice. Why is the Sochi track in the 2014 Winter Games going to be 20 kph slower?

[Biffbradford]

How many pages can we get out of this topic? Hmmmm ....

http://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/DeadHorse.gif

[KarinMichelle]

How many pages can we get out of this topic? Hmmmm ....

http://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/DeadHorse.gif

lol ^^^^^^ :lol:

[tfd888]

How many pages can we get out of this topic? Hmmmm ....

http://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/DeadHorse.gif

bw! :lol:


Apparently quite a few :confused:

[DDCSD]

How many pages can we get out of this topic? Hmmmm ....



Depends on how many posts/page you have your account set for! I'm only on page 2 right now. :lol:

[blackhawk]

So this death merits a set number of comments?

This a dead man... not some hapless farm animal.

[KarinMichelle]

So let's let him rest in peace, shall we? We all have our own opinions. Let's talk, instead about the way the Canadian girls' hockey team celebrated after their win, lol. ;)

[blackhawk]

This thread is also now about why this happened, other athletes reactions to this death, and how future may be prevented.

If one doesn't want to participate, they have that option. No need to tell others not too!

[Biffbradford]

This thread has become:

"The track is unsafe!"

"No it's not"

"Yes it is!"

"No it's not"

Got anything else on the topic? Because we've got that covered pretty well. :roll:

[blackhawk]

This thread has become:

"The track is unsafe!"

"No it's not"

"Yes it is!"

"No it's not"

Got anything else on the topic? Because we've got that covered pretty well. :roll:

Yes I do...

Others may have more to add, and this story is far from over.
Are you a mod?
Is this your thread?

Maybe you should follow your own advise rather than attempting to tell other peeps what to do.
Big sisters are dead horses on my ranch.

[Biffbradford]

Oh, so my opinion doesn't count.

Got it.

So what else do you have to add to the story?

[T.D.]

Pursuit of personal egos and agendas seem to have surpassed any purpose this thread ever had.

Time to move on.