someone selling my photo, advice

[photonoob1]

ok , i was in an elvis tribute band, i quit the band and started photographing them instead as they are all my friends, i got elvis as a model to practice with and he got some pictures out of it for facebook, and promotional photos. he is a friend, im new to photography, so there was no money or charge for the photos. well, at the bands first show which was a local variety/benefit show that featured him and the band his wife was selling one of the photos that i took and sent to him for 5 dollars a pop and by the end of the night they sold an entire stack of photos. they made at least a couple hundred dollars off of my photos that i sent to him , never asked me about selling them, never offered me any money from the total profit but (oh yeah they did give me a free printed photo and put my email adress on it). the issue for me is that it was supposed to be for promo of the band not monetary gain. im not mad, im not going to sue, just kind of disturbed about it because he is making profit from my work and will be traveling around the world and no doubt selling more of these photos, we talked and he said, i get the money you get all the buisness from me putting your name and email on the photos giving you all the credit. what should i do, i have no problem with him using it for promo but not selling, is there laws against this? and can i get in trouble from this guy selling my photos of an elvis look alike out there with my name all over it. thanks to anyone who is willing to read and reply to all of this.

[MJPhotos24]

First thing, find the shift key and sentence/paragraph structure. Dyslexics will thank you.

Second thing, without a contract it's speculation and nothing else. You own the rights to the photos and did not give them permission to do this, so yes there's laws against this - it's called copyright infringement. You can tell them to stop immediately and only continue when you both reach an agreement that you're OK with. If they continue it's illegal and you can bring legal action against them if you so choose.

Obviously a credit is not good enough for you or there wouldn't be a problem. That's a good thing, CREDIT MEANS NOTHING! Nobody is looking looking at your credit or cares it's there! If you trade photos for credit you're an idiot IMHO! Again, nobody cares and it's not helping your portfolio no matter how much you think it is. Editors judge off results, the photos, not who published them or used them simply because some places will use any crap that's free. As an editor if you came to me telling me all about who published you I wouldn't care one bit - show me the photos.

Elvis look alike photos are everywhere, the problem is not when you have a photo of an Elvis look alike, it's when that photo has copyrighted material on it. Such as an "official" Elvis logo, or his name only, etc. You need to violate someone else copyright for it to be illegal. A look alike photo alone is not going to do it. If they went and used the official Elvis logo then Graceland (who owns it) can sue big time!

[photonoob1]

thanks, i didn't trade photos for the cridit, he put my e-mail and name on the photo and when i confronted him about him selling them he said, you get the credit for the photograph.
this is a friend of mine and i had no idea that he would be selling them. i don't need the money but i don't want him selling them.

my point is,if he alters the photos and or ads some kind of official elvis logo to it without me knowing and it has my name and e-mail plastered all over it i dont want some dude showing up at my house with court papers saying i had a copyright infringment to legal elvis logos or something along those lines.


i guess ill just have him remove my info, thanks

[drdiesel1]

If your (so called) friends can't screw you, who can :lol:

You need to confront them NOW. Tell em to pay you or stop selling the pictures. You'll need to sign a contract as stated above that you both agree on.
If they don't pay and continue to sell the shots, you'll need to drag em into court. The sooner you confront them, the sooner you'll resolve it.

[Snydremark]

Not much of a friend if he thinks that your time taking the photos and all is worth just having an email address printed on them while he makes actual cash selling something that he doesn't have a right to sell.

I would flat out tell him to quit selling the photos unless he pays you a portion of each sale, and then put it on paper with a signature from both parties.

[MJPhotos24]

I wasn't saying you traded them for credit - I was saying that he thinks giving you credit makes everything just fine, when it does not. It's wrong and should be stopped, you don't take advantage of friends like that. My friends who want photos to use ask me, and they did even when I was a newbie as well and not just because they know it's a full time job now.

As for legality of him placing a copyright protected logo on there without your knowledge it's an incomplete answer. One could argue that by you not stopping him from selling them, or having an agreement, you are just as liable as he is - or least be named in the case. On the other hand one could argue you just took the photo and did not approve the usage so are not held liable. Depends on the lawyers and judge - and guess what, lawyers will try to ad ANYONE they can to get money out of! Now that you've acknowledged you know it's wrong and had him remove your credit because you know it's wrong makes a pretty strong case against your name being added to the list of those to go after. It's like watching a crime, if you do nothing sometimes charges can be brought up. Speculation, tough to know for sure unless you talk to a lawyer - but why risk it? Play the safe route for yourself.

[WMS]

As I understand it Unless the photo has a REGISTERED copyright it is not enforceable. It will cost you $35.00 to register this photos copyright (IF you use the easy online registration process) and along with it you can register the entire set and or other photographs as long as they were taken in the same year. My suggestion is to promptly register the photographs, then do as you must to protect yourself.

Wayne

[Box Brownie]

Subscribing to watch this one.

Firstly I do hope you sort this out to your satisfaction but this is yet another illustration of the old adage ~ "friends & business do not mix".

My 2p's worth is that this "friend" is shafting you bigtime! Whether you need the money or not is IMO academic, he has morally and legality wise 'broken' the law & let me take a guess that he has a higher net worth than you do???

I would hope this does not need to go to extent of using a lawyer but IMO you do need to get him to play ball ~ afterall if you had a recording of him (audio or DVD)that you were selling for profit and the CD cover simply said 'picture of Bert Bloggs the Elvis impersonator' when he asked where is his share as it is his voice on the CD/DVD & you replied "well you have credited him as the singer.....and surely he will get repeat bookings...." Well in the sad old world of media he may well get such bookings off the back of that but photography as I see it does not yield the same benefits off of credits. So not a perfect analogy but hope you can see my point.

Go make your case as you see fit & see if he is person you can really call a friend!

[freaking102]

"friends & business do not mix".



sad appraoch to life. my approach is to do business with friends. life is too short to get into business with people i don't like.

now about the OP's problem. i don't see a problem. originally, you were not looking for $$, and photos of elvis impersonators are not going to produce much revenue. you entered a verbal contract, and apparently barely discussed terms of the contract, so ended up with vague terms,... it's a learning lesson for you. don't worry, be happy, and move on to the next elvis impersonating gig.

[MJPhotos24]

As I understand it Unless the photo has a REGISTERED copyright it is not enforceable. It will cost you $35.00 to register this photos copyright (IF you use the easy online registration process) and along with it you can register the entire set and or other photographs as long as they were taken in the same year. My suggestion is to promptly register the photographs, then do as you must to protect yourself.

Wayne
This is not true, a copyright is yours as soon as you create the work (photograph, music, drawing, painting, etc). Registering the work is about how much money you can be awarded - there's a minimum with registered work and is a good idea to register everything. When registering you have to choose if the images have been published or not as well.

[MJPhotos24]

sad appraoch to life. my approach is to do business with friends. life is too short to get into business with people i don't like.

now about the OP's problem. i don't see a problem. originally, you were not looking for $$, and photos of elvis impersonators are not going to produce much revenue. you entered a verbal contract, and apparently barely discussed terms of the contract, so ended up with vague terms,... it's a learning lesson for you. don't worry, be happy, and move on to the next elvis impersonating gig.

Curious, do you actually own a business? The first part screams no to me for some reason.

The reason they say friends and business do not mix is because friends will try to take advantage of you and not even realize it. Business between friends has broken up a LOT of friendships (and some families)! It's not a sad approach to life, it's common sense. Sure you have to do it at times, and some friends are my best clients as well (and I theirs), but the moral is letting them away with things that you wouldn't let any regular customer get away with is not a good idea. Many people don't know how to mix the two, business and friendship, and if you don't that results in problems.

To be completely honest the advice here is poor at best and think you should re-read the OP. First off these photos are selling, revenue is being created, so the comment about them not creating much is wrong. He didn't say they were trying to sell them, he said they sold a stack and would be selling more stacks at other shows! Thing about impersonators is people go for an experience of seeing that person, they'll buy a photo for an autograph just for fun. If it sells at one show it will sell at others, did music for awhile and it was all about finding a product that sold because if it sold at one show it would sell at the next.

Second thing, if they are using a copyright protected logo or anything and he knows about it - that is ethically wrong to let them do so without telling them and wanting his work (not just name) removed. It's illegal and they should know it as well as remove himself, and his work, from that situation. Maybe they have permission about the logos and stuff they ad - we don't know yet. However, still they are doing something with the photo he didn't want them to do which is wrong.

Third thing, the verbal contract statement is wrong, he never told them they could make prints and sell them - in other words there's no agreement for that and they would be in violation of the verbal contract to only use them for facebook and promotional photos. Not sure if you know what promotional photos are in the music business but they are provided free in press kits, to papers, etc. Selling a print like they are does not qualify. As for verbals themselves, they can hold up in court but it's all hearsay and up to a judge to say yes/no on damages since nothing is in writing.

Moral is YOU DON'T LET PEOPLE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF YOU OR YOUR WORK, FRIENDS OR NOT!

[Box Brownie]

Mike

I speculate that should it ever get to court (arbitration?) it could go either way for the OP

1) A sympathetic judge will see the injustice and rule in favour of the OP

2) A judge who sees things in black & white might see the OP as having no prior precedent of that being able to show the value of his work therefore he has no/limited grounds to claim his side of the verbal contract has the greater weight. i.e. he attached no monetary value to the image in the first place and the "infringer" has incurred all the costs of the prints for sale.

In one regard I agree with freaking 102 it may be best to move on as the chances of getting an equitable settlement are possibly close to zero ~ but I wonder if some sort of cease & desist would work for this...........would a lawyer in intellectual property rights take such a case pro bono or at least do a fixed fee advice & letter???

Just hope the OP is happy with whatever he sorts out?

[photoguy6405]

I don't put much stock in "they're no friend if they do <insert grievous offense here>" mantra, because quite often they're just acting out of ignorance, not intent to defraud. However, many people will also get very offended and defensive if called out for their actions, and it's certainly not unheard of for long-standing friendships to be lost over this type of thing. Not cool, but it is what it is.

So, the OP would need to decide which is more important... the money and protecting his copyright, or his friendship with this person.

ETA: If it were me, I'd probably let it go, but politely decline to ever shoot them again unless an agreement was signed beforehand.

[MJPhotos24]

It would depend on the judge and the lawyers (who can argue the best and presents the most). It really shouldn't have to go that far I'd hope. If the person is really a friend they would have asked in the first place, and since they didn't you'd think a friend would stop immediately if it upset the OP or were asked to stop because he don't want money being made that way from his work.

Just "letting it go" is a very bad move IMO because if they're using unlicensed logos or something along with the photo as they sell it then a lawyer for Graceland could easily name the photographer in a suit as well as the impersonator and anyone else involved. It's how lawyers work - name everyone and collect where you can. Even if they are not using logos or other copyright protected material along with the photo it's still a bad idea to just let it go because it's taking advantage of his friendship. You should be able to work something out so both are happy and not have to ever think of court - if he's a real friend that is. Have to be honest, if you have to choose one or the other (friendship or protecting your rights) then that person is either not a friend or how you handle things is just bad.

[archosman]

...Not sure if you know what promotional photos are in the music business but they are provided free in press kits, to papers, etc. Selling a print like they are does not qualify.



Here in Nashville Waylon Jennings used to keep a stack of 8x10s in his car. He evidently had a lead foot and was pulled over numerous times for speeding.

While it didn't work every time quite a few times he was able to get out of a ticket by giving the officer an autographed picture!

[photonoob1]

thanks to everyone for some advice, i sent him an email telling him to remove my name and email from the photos, i am not in business its just a hobby but when i saw them selling the photos i felt like it was a cheap shot to the gut. as a friend he should have told me he was going to be selling them and if that was the case i would have charged him for the photos. any way, im letting it go cause i do not want any legal action over this but i will be learning the laws of photography and it was a good lesson learned. this was my first time dealing with any of this. i know he will be selling them at all the shows, as long as my name and email is removed from the pictures im ok with it, just thought it was a cheap shot, thanks everyone

[MJPhotos24]

Here in Nashville Waylon Jennings used to keep a stack of 8x10s in his car. He evidently had a lead foot and was pulled over numerous times for speeding.

While it didn't work every time quite a few times he was able to get out of a ticket by giving the officer an autographed picture!
When I worked in music I had them with me at all times of all the bands...unfortunately they were not getting out of ticket worthy.

[MJPhotos24]

thanks to everyone for some advice, i sent him an email telling him to remove my name and email from the photos, i am not in business its just a hobby but when i saw them selling the photos i felt like it was a cheap shot to the gut. as a friend he should have told me he was going to be selling them and if that was the case i would have charged him for the photos. any way, im letting it go cause i do not want any legal action over this but i will be learning the laws of photography and it was a good lesson learned. this was my first time dealing with any of this. i know he will be selling them at all the shows, as long as my name and email is removed from the pictures im ok with it, just thought it was a cheap shot, thanks everyone
I just don't get why you'd continue to let him use it then, as it seems to be upsetting. But could you clear up if he's using illegal logos or anything? If he is you need to re-think it - if not then ah well.

[photonoob1]

no he is not using illegal logos, i was just saying that if someone were to take one of these images for the perpous of selling them with illegal logos and my name and e-mail is on them, who do you think would be the first one contacted for legal action. and as far as letting him to continue to sell them? i would rather keep a friendship than lose one over 5 dollar pictures even though he did what he did, i chalk it up to a great learning experience

[Box Brownie]

I am glad you have resolved for yourself how you wish this to 'finish' but (and sorry to keep using "sayings") I hope the friendship is a good one because as the saying goes "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me", remain aware of just how much he thinks of the friendship to have behaved this way.

IMO he has bruised your friendship and abused your goodwill so just make sure he buys the beers for a (long) while :lol:

Lastly, none of us here at PoTN know either of you so only you will know what is best for you personally but one passing thought is that if he has this cavalier attitude to a friends artistry I wonder how he will treat another tog who is not his friend or indeed treated by another tog if "he" had his images misused in the same manner......!

[photoguy6405]

I am glad you have resolved for yourself how you wish this to 'finish' but (and sorry to keep using "sayings") I hope the friendship is a good one because as the saying goes "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me", remain aware of just how much he thinks of the friendship to have behaved this way.

IMO he has bruised your friendship and abused your goodwill so just make sure he buys the beers for a (long) while
By pointing out how little the friends values the friendship, you're suggesting knowledge of copyright law and purposeful malicious intent in violating said copyright law... which may not be the case at all. Shoot, the guy's already an Elvis wannabe, rather than an original artist, which means he may think it's just fine to piggyback on other's effort and success just fine regardless any other considerations.

Note: Not justifying what his thinking may be, just saying we shouldn't be automatically assuming insidious intent is all.

[Box Brownie]

ok , i was in an elvis tribute band, i quit the band and started photographing them instead as they are all my friends, i got elvis as a model to practice with and he got some pictures out of it for facebook, and promotional photos. he is a friend, im new to photography, so there was no money or charge for the photos. well, at the bands first show which was a local variety/benefit show that featured him and the band his wife was selling one of the photos that i took and sent to him for 5 dollars a pop and by the end of the night they sold an entire stack of photos. they made at least a couple hundred dollars off of my photos that i sent to him , never asked me about selling them, never offered me any money from the total profit but (oh yeah they did give me a free printed photo and put my email adress on it). the issue for me is that it was supposed to be for promo of the band not monetary gain. im not mad, im not going to sue, just kind of disturbed about it because he is making profit from my work and will be traveling around the world and no doubt selling more of these photos, we talked and he said, i get the money you get all the buisness from me putting your name and email on the photos giving you all the credit. what should i do, i have no problem with him using it for promo but not selling, is there laws against this? and can i get in trouble from this guy selling my photos of an elvis look alike out there with my name all over it. thanks to anyone who is willing to read and reply to all of this.

By pointing out how little the friends values the friendship, you're suggesting knowledge of copyright law and purposeful malicious intent in violating said copyright law... which may not be the case at all. Shoot, the guy's already an Elvis wannabe, rather than an original artist, which means he may think it's just fine to piggyback on other's effort and success just fine regardless any other considerations.

Note: Not justifying what his thinking may be, just saying we shouldn't be automatically assuming insidious intent is all.

Hi

I have copied the OP opening post and emphasised the element that struck me most about the issue ~ I was not primarily concerned about the copyright violation or indeed infering malicious intent but the way the OP describes the 'discussion' he had with the guy suggested to me he did not value the verbal arrangement made and when challenged took the line that he had done nothing wrong......and heh look what I have done by mentioning you on the prints.

If I have come across in the manner you are suggesting that was not my intent!

Well by intent or not he has done something wrong but even when raised with him by the OP it was not clear that it was a copyright/rights discussion but more, maybe. along the lines of "this is not right surely you should compensate me for the fact that you are selling my picture without my agreeing to it......" so whether legal or not there is a moral issue and as such that is what speaks of not treating a friend fairly.

A weak analogy might be - your friend asks to borrow your car for a few days whilst you are away, whether spoken of/agreed or not would you not expect that friend to return it tidy and with the same amount (or even brimmed up) of fuel in the tank ~ another may be, he borrows your lawnmower and hits a few stones blunting the blade.....surely he should get the darned thing sharpened. As I say weak analogies but when talking of the way friends "should" behave we are not necessarily talking of legal obligations just what is "right & fair" between friends and remember in this instance the friend is making $$'s off of that image beyond the agreed usage for which he paid $5 for it.

As for the fact that as an Elvis impersonator he may have a view/mindset of the way to treat all such "arrangements"........IMO not quite the same because we come full circle, the guy is his friend!!!