Advice for prime lens on 7D - indoor sports

[yourdoinitwrong]

I typically don't like the "recommend me a ........" type threads but here I find myself doing it. I have a 7D that I use to shoot my nephews sporting events, mainly basketball. Neither my 24-105 f/4 or 70-200 f/4 are anywhere near fast enough for the caves they play in. I need something about $500 or less that would be good to use for this purpose. I have seen a lot of positive things about the 85mm f/1.8 but am concerned it will be too long on the 7D. My other consideration is the Sigma 50mm f/1.4 but have read that the AF is not very quick or accurate. I don't have $1,200 plus to spend on an L lens but I would appreciate any input from those who have used either of these on a crop body for a similar purpose.

[int2str]

85mm f/1.8.

There's no way it's too long (too short at best :D ).
Unless you're shooting while you're actually *on* the court. :D

Tip: If you quickly need to frame action that's "too close" turn your camera to portrait orientation.

[eigga]

Take your 24-105 to a game. Set it at 85 and take pictures for the purpose of trying out the focal length. I also agree I dont think it will be too long. Here are a few I took today witht he 85L. I have the 85 1.8 as well but have been palying with the L.

I dont think Canon makes a better lens for the price than the 85 1.8 except maybe the 70-200 f/4

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff66/mcgomez13/Upwards10-168.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff66/mcgomez13/Upwards10-164.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff66/mcgomez13/Upwards10-171.jpg

[43 North]

85 1.8

[mouettus]

sigma 70-200 f2.8 OS HSM II?

[yourdoinitwrong]

Thanks for your responses. I think I will go with the 85mm f/1.8. I have intended on trying the 24-105 out at 85mm but due to work I haven't made it to the games for a couple of weeks. I tried doing it around the house but it's just not quite the same as trying it out at the games. I did consider something like the Sigma 70-200 f/2.8 but I already have the Canon 70-200 f/4 and don't want to sell that at this point. Plus, I can use the 85mm for portraits as well. Thanks again.

[dmccarty]

I have been taking quite a few images from under the backboard. There is a wall 6-8 feet from the backboard space is limited. To get the kid, the ball, and the basket in the frame I have been using my 50/F1.4 set at 2.8. I can use one side of the gym to walk from one end of the court to the other so I have been using the 50mm. My 105/F2.8 is a bit too long for the space I have available to depending if the action and myself is near the backboard. I am using a full frame camera.

I think the lens choice depends on your access to the action. Can you get close enough or are you stuck away from the court? Full frame or not full frame?

Later,
Dan

[matonanjin]

If the 85 is possibly too short then consider the 100 F/2. It is my indoor sports lens. About the only one I use. supposedly it has insignificantly better optics than the 85 but you get 18% more reach at the cost of 1/3 stop. (I've never used an 85). It's all a trade off. I suspect they are about the same cost.

[IslandCrow]

I used my 85 f/1.8 on my 40D quite a bit for shooting intramural indoor soccer, and I was literally right on the sideline. It was a little bit long for action right at our own goal, but I didn't really want pictures of the other team scoring on us anyway. I slapped the 50mm on a few times, but quickly realized 85 was a much better focal length for 95% of the shots. I even considered using my 100mm macro for a little extra reach towards the opposite end of the court.

[snyderman]

Hi yourdoingitwrong:

Pretty much all of my shooting is indoor sports. All lenses in my signature are used for such activities.

Go to lenses for basketball are the 85mm f/1.8 and the 50 f/1.4. I have courtside access and can get as close as possible to the action. The 85mm is too long for really tight under-the-basket action. Works great out to about the 3-point line.

The 135 f/2 is used for pregame stuff and halftime shots. I like to shoot the cheerleaders and crowd shots with this lens as well.

For basketball the 70-200 f/2.8L IS rarely goes with me anymore. Standard setup on the camera in most HS gyms is to shoot at f/2.0. Even a 2.8 lens can bring shutter speeds down or ISO up so high that it's not a lot of fun.

If basketball is your gig, the 50 and 85 are GREAT tools that definitely won't break the bank, either!

Look over to the sports photos page for some of my 7D basketball shots. Most of what you see will be teh 7D/85mm f/1.8 combo. Some might be the 50mm f/1.4.

dave

[yourdoinitwrong]

Hi yourdoingitwrong:

Pretty much all of my shooting is indoor sports. All lenses in my signature are used for such activities.

Go to lenses for basketball are the 85mm f/1.8 and the 50 f/1.4. I have courtside access and can get as close as possible to the action. The 85mm is too long for really tight under-the-basket action. Works great out to about the 3-point line.

The 135 f/2 is used for pregame stuff and halftime shots. I like to shoot the cheerleaders and crowd shots with this lens as well.

For basketball the 70-200 f/2.8L IS rarely goes with me anymore. Standard setup on the camera in most HS gyms is to shoot at f/2.0. Even a 2.8 lens can bring shutter speeds down or ISO up so high that it's not a lot of fun.

If basketball is your gig, the 50 and 85 are GREAT tools that definitely won't break the bank, either!

Look over to the sports photos page for some of my 7D basketball shots. Most of what you see will be teh 7D/85mm f/1.8 combo. Some might be the 50mm f/1.4.

dave

Those are pretty much the reasons I want the 85mm. The 70-200 f/2.8 would only gain me one stop and is nowhere near my current budget. I had considered a 50mm but both the Canon and Sigma seem to have AF that is considerably slower than the 85mm.

[matonanjin]

Those are pretty much the reasons I want the 85mm. The 70-200 f/2.8 would only gain me one stop and is nowhere near my current budget. I had considered a 50mm but both the Canon and Sigma seem to have AF that is considerably slower than the 85mm.

The 70-200 F/2.8 is not going to gain you a stop. You will lose a stop and 1/3 compared to the 85 F/1.8

[int2str]

The 70-200 F/2.8 is not going to gain you a stop. You will lose a stop and 1/3 compared to the 85 F/1.8

Gain a stop compared to the 70-200mm f/4 he already owns...

[yourdoinitwrong]

Gain a stop compared to the 70-200mm f/4 he already owns...

Yep, that's what I was referring to.

[matonanjin]

Yep, that's what I was referring to.

Whoops. My misunderstanding.:oops:

[yourdoinitwrong]

I ended up having to shoot again today in "the cave" with my 70-200 f/4......grrrrrr :mad:. When are they going to come up with a body that shoots at ISO 25,600 with no noise or a 10-400 f/1.0 lens that is dead sharp through the whole focal length? Oh, and at a reasonable price for either!

This is the BEST exposure I could get: ISO 3200, 1/160th, f/4.0
My nephew about to be assaulted

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww81/yourdoinitwrong/Random/AJBasketball-1.jpg


Same settings, shot taken from the other end of the court

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww81/yourdoinitwrong/Random/AJBasketball-2.jpg

Both are straight out of the camera, no pp other than conversion to jpeg. I think you can see why I hate this gym, not only does the light suck but it's unbelievably inconsistent from end to end.

[DDCSD]

I'd actually call that a very well lit gym! You definitely need an 85 1.8.

[yourdoinitwrong]

I'd actually call that a very well lit gym! You definitely need an 85 1.8.

Very much so. I'm hoping the next few paychecks are kind to me.

[DDCSD]

Oh, and don't be afraid to go to ISO 6400 on that 7D.

[yourdoinitwrong]

I will give that a try again if I don't have my 85 by then. I tried it once before and it came out with way too much noise. I'm sure it was my fault though because I underexposed them by trying to get a higher shutter speed. I need to get some NR software too......yet one more thing to spend money on!

[SoundsGood]

Matt/eigga - wow, great shots. I happen to shoot my son's Upward basketball game very Saturday. I too use an 85mm 1.8 (set to f/2) with ISO 1600 and 1/500th. Only difference is I use a 40D. But, while my pics aren't bad, yours are amazing! Much brighter, much cleaner, much sharper. Got any tips??

Also, I found 85mm to be way too tight, but I was told the 50mm 1.4 doesn't focus fast enough. True?

[yourdoinitwrong]

Matt/eigga - wow, great shots. I happen to shoot my son's Upward basketball game very Saturday. I too use an 85mm 1.8 (set to f/2) with ISO 1600 and 1/500th. Only difference is I use a 40D. But, while my pics aren't bad, yours are amazing! Much brighter, much cleaner, much sharper. Got any tips??

Also, I found 85mm to be way too tight, but I was told the 50mm 1.4 doesn't focus fast enough. True?

I can't speak from experience but everything I have read says that neither the Canon nor the Sigma 50mm focus fast enough. That is why I took both of them out of the running for this purpose. I would still like to get the Sigma 50mm at some point for portraits and indoor family stuff because I know the 85mm will be way too long on my 7D.

[matonanjin]

.....

Both are straight out of the camera, no pp other than conversion to jpeg. I think you can see why I hate this gym, not only does the light suck but it's unbelievably inconsistent from end to end.

Wecome to our world.;) The first shot really looks good. The second one, yes, is underexposed but it looks like there is still some shadow detail. Up the exposure in Lightroom and it may be saved. Yes, there will be noise. It's always worse when you underexpose but then run it through NR software.

I will give that a try again if I don't have my 85 by then. I tried it once before and it came out with way too much noise. I'm sure it was my fault though because I underexposed them by trying to get a higher shutter speed. I need to get some NR software too......yet one more thing to spend money on!

Almost all, probably all, NR software companies have 30 day trials you can use. Try them out before buying. Run the above through one and it may look pretty good. Every one is going to tell you the software they use is the best and I am probably no different. But I use Imagenomic Noiseware Pro and think it does a great job. They have a very educational non-product specific noise reduction instuction manual that you can download. You will probably find very helpful as you start dealing with noise.

[yourdoinitwrong]

^^ I'm going to run them through LR later tonight if I have the time. Those shots were just to show my level of frustration though I know that is nothing new for everyone who has shot in a gym before. 1/160th at ISO 3200? Really? :confused: I purchased both my f/4 lenses when the weather was nice and was doing a lot of outdoor shooting so I thought I had done a good job on my purchases......then I had to move indoors and quickly realized the error of my ways. Oh well, just dealing with the same things everyone else does I guess.

I have pretty much decided on the Imagenomic NR software and will get it once I have purchased the 85mm. I have PS CS4 but have not had the opportunity to learn and use it that much yet. It's going to be another learning curve for me to figure out the workflow of using LR then processing everything through PS for the NR.

[yourdoinitwrong]

Now I just read that Sigma has announced a new 85mm f/1.4. Wonder how that is going to compare AF-wise to the Canon?

[yourdoinitwrong]

Instead of waiting around for the Sigma I went ahead and purchased the Canon 85mm f/1.8 and got to use it for the first time yesterday. I haven't had time to edit anything yet but I can say it is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. It's a little long for my 7D but I knew that going in. The shots are very sharp and it's awesome to be able to use available lighting and still get good shots. This is my first prime and first lens faster than f/4 so there is some learning but so far I'm very impressed!

[gwickes]

Shooting indoors as others have said is a real challenge given the light we are provided (ie not much). While not shooting basketball, I have spent a few years indoors with volleyball, so understand the lighting challenges you face. Here's what I have evolved to use (with my 40D):

Lens: 85 f/1.8 is the go to lens for indoor. I will use the 70-200 f/2.8 when the odd gym has enough light (not too often). This 85mm lens is just terrific. Price, speed, focus, color. Its a great lens! Others have already chimed in on this recommendation and I agree! :)
White Balance: if you shoot JPG, it is imperative that you do a custom white balance setting prior to shooting (I have a Lastolite one that is great... here's a link to B&H http://*******/9of8Hs). I now shoot RAW, so don't do as much WB in advance, adjusting later as needed. But getting the WB right is a big help for indoor.
Shoot manual and under expose: I now shoot manual and under exposing by up to a full stop. I gain a faster shutter speed by doing this (I shoot at ISO 1600, since the 40D's 3200 start to get a bit too noisy for me...but the 7D I hear is better at these higher ISO settings). While this means you have to adjust in post processing (PP), it gets the shutter speed up to 1/400 to 1/500 usually, and 1/640. I even try to use f2.2 to gain a bit more DoF range. And if you shoot RAW you have more recovery capabilities.

Here's a couple examples of volleyball in badly lit gyms using the 85 lens using manual, underexposing and recovering in PP in Photoshop:

1. 85mm f2.2 ISO 1600 1/640
http://www.grantwickesphotos.com/img/v8/p597796816-4.jpg

2. 85mm f2.2 ISO 1600 1/500
http://www.grantwickesphotos.com/img/v6/p901292439-4.jpg

Cheers, Grant

[eigga]

Shoot manual and under expose - Nothing brings out issues in High ISO images like underexposing. I would never sugest to underexpose as a rule...may be necessary in a rare case but overall with high ISO the goal is to clip the highlights IMHO

Agree with Manual

[yourdoinitwrong]

Next game I will shoot in manual. I was a little late to the last game so I just threw it in Tv at 1/400th and ISO 1600 just to see what kind of f-stop I would get and it varied between 2.5 and 3.5 depending on what part of the gym I was shooting. I know that's not a good way to shoot but it was the first time using the 85mm and I didn't have any time at all to mess with the settings. Never having had a lens this fast before I didn't even want to try to guess at what was going to work. I'm still fairly new and inexperienced so unfortunately I do not have the eye yet to size up a place and have a general idea of what my settings should be. One thing I am sure of though is that it's awesome to have a fast lens, so much less frustration indoors! Thanks again for all your input.

[Sibil]

Nothing brings out issues in High ISO images like underexposing.
Agreed

[mmahoney]

I ended up having to shoot again today in "the cave"
This is the BEST exposure I could get: ISO 3200, 1/160th, f/4.0

If you think that's a cave come with me to some of my gyms and see what a real cave is .. and bring your flashlight :lol:

[yourdoinitwrong]

If you think that's a cave come with me to some of my gyms and see what a real cave is .. and bring your flashlight :lol:

I guess it could certainly be worse than that particular gym, the frustration was just compounded by only having f/4 as my fastest lens. But now that has been taken care of!

[matonanjin]

If you think that's a cave come with me to some of my gyms and see what a real cave is .. and bring your flashlight :lol:

And then come shoot a horse show with me!:(:mad:

[yourdoinitwrong]

And then come shoot a horse show with me!:(:mad:

What kind of settings do you use for a horse show? At my level in this whole photography thing if I had to shoot someplace worse than that gym I'd probably go mad!

[eigga]

At my level in this whole photography thing if I had to shoot someplace worse than that gym I'd probably go mad!

Your "level" doesnt change the setting or the light. You shoot wide open on your fastest lens (that can also focus fast enough) with the lowest ISO possible to get the desired shutter speed (or up to your camera's max) Single point focus on servo is what most use although some people do like expanded focus points if your camera has that.

Manual is best but Av is a good starting point.

[yourdoinitwrong]

Your "level" doesnt change the setting or the light. You shoot wide open on your fastest lens (that can also focus fast enough) with the lowest ISO possible to get the desired shutter speed (or up to your camera's max) Single point focus on servo is what most use although some people do like expanded focus points if your camera has that.

Manual is best but Av is a good starting point.

I understand that my level doesn't change lighting, I meant that it affects my knowing how to deal with it effectively. The shots I posted earlier were with an f/4 lens and now I have an 85mm f/1.8 so I'm getting used to dealing with a shallower DOF, softer shots at wide open, and possible CA at wide open. The 85 is also my first prime so it's taking some getting used to no zooming either. With the f/4 it was pretty much shoot wide open and hope for the best. Now I have more options so I'm learning what works the best. Thankfully now I can use Manual mode to have more control. Now if I just had a bunch more money for some strobes........... :D

[eigga]

Now if I just had a bunch more money for some strobes...........

For sure...the best way to deal with low light and WB issues is to create your own :)

[matonanjin]

What kind of settings do you use for a horse show? At my level in this whole photography thing if I had to shoot someplace worse than that gym I'd probably go mad!

1) I try and shoot at 1600 if at all possible and still get 1/500 at F/2
2) If need be I will go to 3200 as long as I don't still underexpose. Underexposure at this level causes junk.
3) If I can't do above I go to flashes and umbrellas.

Ron

[syphlix]

if yo're gonna shoot a lot of these gym games i'd say just set up a pair of speedlites... they'd make a world of difference and don't cost too much...

[mouettus]

Your "level" doesnt change the setting or the light. You shoot wide open on your fastest lens (that can also focus fast enough) with the lowest ISO possible to get the desired shutter speed (or up to your camera's max) Single point focus on servo is what most use although some people do like expanded focus points if your camera has that.

Manual is best but Av is a good starting point.

I know that not a lot of ppl like full auto things... but the OP has a 7D (which I also own) and I found that Zone AF really works wonders while shooting sports. Of course I am not that much into sports but the times I've tried, it really delivered!

[yourdoinitwrong]

if yo're gonna shoot a lot of these gym games i'd say just set up a pair of speedlites... they'd make a world of difference and don't cost too much...

I am considering that for next basketball season. The kids are moving outdoors now to soccer and baseball so that will give me a little time to decide which way to go with lighting and to save up some money for it as well.

I know that not a lot of ppl like full auto things... but the OP has a 7D (which I also own) and I found that Zone AF really works wonders while shooting sports. Of course I am not that much into sports but the times I've tried, it really delivered!

Right now I'm using mainly Point Expansion due to the fact that I'm usually trying to keep just my nephew in focus. I tried out the Zone and it works pretty well if you are going for a general shot but if someone gets between me and him it takes him out of focus. Because of this the flexibility of the 7D AF is working perfectly for me. It's awesome to have the options available to tailor the camera to exactly what I'm trying to do.