10D review !!

[R055]

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/10d.html

[R055]

and here http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E10D/E10DA.HTM

with EOS-10D Sample Images

[mikeg]

And of course :


http://www.dpreview.com/articles/canoneos10d/

[Yavor75]

I think it is necessary to say that I (and almost every other D60 owner) are currently feeling an emotion which cannot be well described without expletives. This is definately a 47 expletive morning. Canon should be saying to us "we blew it- and we fixed it- and we are sorry"...."here is your swap-out/upgrade coupon". I guess they think that they can easily sustain the black-eye that this screwup represents.
You think we will get any consideration? You think we will get a 2.0 firmware release that improves the focus, fixes the under exposure or the 550ex's -2 stop problem? Probably not. They truly don't care.
We got the royal hose- and it's almost worthy of a class-action suit. I wish I had never started with Canon products...and I advise anyone who is looking even at the 10D to seriously consider Nikon or Sigma. If this is typical of what we can expect from Canon- they have just dropped off the top tier of manufacturers and probably should only be sold through outlets in Brooklyn.
OK- I've vented - but I encourage others to speak their peace. This was a total burn.

Bob

[beach512]

Bob -
You've got to be kidding, right ? My goodness! Many of us can't afford even a used D30 and you have got a D60 and now it is the end of the world ?

Unless you are just addicted to new technology, please check out Pekka's D30 and even G1 galleries as a reminder. Learn to make do with the tremendous capabilities of the D60. It is an incredible camera !
There is no perfect camera out there. Be creative and find ways around some of the weaknesses you may find.

A good photographer can make a good shot with a brownie or pin hole camera. It does not matter.

Digital cameras are still in their infancy and Canon is doing a great job keeping pace and outperforming others. What are they supposed to do ? Do nothing ?

[ebann]

My condolesces to the premature death of the D-60. Hail the new mid-level digital SLR! (low being the D-30 and high being the 1D/1Ds)

But really... did you really buy your D-60 without knowing its limitations? e.g. bad focusing in dark, diffraction problems, etc. If so, then either 1) you bought it when it just came out, which is a big NO-NO... remember the new Intel Pentium chip with arithmetic problems? Always wait a few months for the problems to show up and be fixed, or 2) you don´t care or know about the limitations and just want to shoot great pictures, which then, do it and forget about it´s better sibling... cuz when you´re done with the D-60, you´ll probably be going to get it´s awesome grandson!

Dang, I have a G1 and really don´t care much about the G2 or G3 cuz I can make great pictures with the G1. Remember, the artist is you... not the camera! The art and joy lies in the ability to hide the limitations of your camera... what??? this picture was shot with a G1 and not with a film camera??? *smile*

I just got a used D-30 and am quite ecstatic about it! I enjoy the cheaper things in life... cuz if it breaks or scratches... I can just get another one for an even cheaper price :-) Oh yea... did I tell you that my G1 was a used refurbished camera too?

Oh yea... my EOS 10s was found dumped in the basement when my sister left home... and... nah... you get the picture!

-Ellery

[jmublueduck]

yup, this hurts.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/10d_vs_d60.html

[jmublueduck]

sad. the D30 & D60 are now off Canon's site for good. Here's the new flash site:

http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/EOS10D/

[Yavor75]

Yea, I read everything you could on this camera before buying it....and I am one of those kinds of people who are willing to go with my decisions...and not look back. Both of you'all are not D60 owners though. You didn't wade through the trecherous waters to try to get one of these for months. You haven't blown thousands on lenses and CF cards and cases and filters..to land up with a camera that only works reliably in the studio on manual. Sure, it's caveat emptor...but that does not exonerate Canon from all blame.
I can make great pictures with the D60- but it is not like it has some slight flaw to work around. It's multi-flawed. The G2 is a much more polished product. It's highly refined...and the G1 wasn't a bomb either.
Want a great deal on a D60?

Bob

[Jorge]

Nearly twenty years ago I used all my savings buying a Commodore VIC20 - one of the first affordable home computers. I’ve upgraded many times since then and I don’t blame Commodore or anyone else for making models that outperformed the VIC20.

Now a couple of months ago I got myself an old, outdated and long ago discontinued D30, and I think it’s one hell of a photo machine. I will definitely upgrade when I think I need a new toy and can no longer resist experiencing evolution first hand, and I seriously doubt that I will feel bad about it!

[hmhm]

Yavor75 wrote:
OK- I've vented - but I encourage others to speak their peace. This was a total burn.


Technology products improve from generation to generation. This is a good thing. It's been happening this way, umm, pretty much always. So let's try to not be so surprised next time it happens.

When you buy a high-ticket item, it's your responsibility to understand how that item will depreciate in value. Given that the D60 was a replacement for the D30, that it debuted at a price far below the current price of the D30, and that D30 values dropped precipitously as a result, a D60 buyer hardly has reason to claim that the D60's replacement and accompanying depreciation could not have been anticipated.

While we're on the topic, let me explain how the free market system works. Somebody makes a product, and you have some money. You both agree that exchanging $X for the product is a mutually beneficial arrangement. This exchange is voluntary. When the exchange is done, both parties are happy.

If at a later time the company is willing to give more product for less than $X, they're allowed to do this, they don't have to compensate you for the previous deal. Similarly, if at some point in the future the product you bought is worth more to you than what you paid for it, you don't have to go back and give the company more money for it, either. This system works nicely.
-harry

[Yavor75]

My last post on this (lest I start sounding like DVworrier!)
OK...thank's for all the lessons. Capitalism, the marketing of technology and remembering the Vic-20.
You certainly set me straight. (not)
If the 10D were a different camera...with a new/bigger sensor and was priced less than the D60, I'd just feel like I always do (being an early-adopter)...it's the price of doing business. It's not. It's the same sensor, next fab run. What's different about the 10D? They fixed the focusing system and metering. In fact the profits from the engineering costs re-coup of the D60 probably paid for the engineering of the 10D.
ALL my previous digicams and 35mm cams could focus better then the D60. None of them (canon or otherwise) under-exposed on every shot.
The final part of the capitalist equation is that a company can loose it's reputation when it markets defective products. When it looses market share, it suffers in the long-run. It seems like since the Japaneese started chomping steaks and drinking whiskey, the zero-defect rule went out the window. Hello Guys- not everything from the west is a good idea.

So, sorry to shake the bees nest guys. I was pretty sure that a sizable group of D60 users out there were reaching for the preparation H today. I thought I'd just blow some steam for them.

Take care-
Bob

[gsrossano]

Those of you who are not stressing your D60s and are pleased with what they can do for you.. well I am happy for you.

But this is not just about technology improving and taking your lumps. If you bought a D60 expecting to use all its capabilities and expected it work reliably when you needed it to on a job, it is a big disappointment. I firmly believe one reason it has been taken off the market so soon is that the failure/defect rate is higher than normal and they are cutting there losses by bringing out a new model and they are hanging the current owners out to dry in the hope most of you don't care if it doesn't do everything it is supposed to do.

My shutter died after one week of use. Canon repaired the shutter and installed a firmware upgrade. In the process they introduced another problem; the files are no longer named in a predicatable way. It was sent back to Canon. They say there is no file problem. On a job last month the cameras just died and refused to power up. I sent back to Canon. They reset its electronics. Apparently there are some internal errors that cause the body to shut down so it can never be turned on again without sending it back to Canon. They can't tell me if the problem is in the body or one of my lenses. I have to wait for it to fail again and send it all back to figure it out. The people I have dealt with at the Irvine factory service center seem to be neither particularly bright nor particularly concerned about all the defects one has to deal with, with the recent generations of Canon producs.

Having used Canon products for about 15 years, my experience is that over the past few years their engineering excellence and quality control have deteriorated greatly. Up until about 2 years ago I had trouble with only one Canon product. About 13 years ago I had a 10S that would sometimes start flapping the shutter and mirror like a pair of novelty chattering teeth. The only way to stop it was to take the batteries out. After several futile attempts to fix it they replaced the body (which they should have done right off the bat).

About two years ago I got a 1V. It drained the batteries in about 5 rolls of film instead of the usual 80. It had to go back for exchange. Then there is the nifty new ring light they brought out about 18 months ago for use on the 100 mm macro. Thing is, the inside diameter is slightly smaller than the diameter of a screw on filter so you cannot use the macro lens and ring light combination with filters. I have a D30 that I can't use with my studio lighting because the PC Terminal won't synch with the shutter. I have the D60 with its problems. I have a 1D that has a problem with the internal frame buffer that now only holds 14 images instead of the original 20. Canon Irvine insists this is normal even though when I use a coworker's 1D with the rest of my equipment (lenses, CF cards etc.) this problem doesn't exist. When you have to have a long discussion with the technicians to get them to agree there is an obvious problem and even think about solving it you know something is wrong.

If you are using your D60 as a glorified point and shoot and are happy with it, good for you. If you are using it as a tool to do a job, it is an unreliable tool. The only silver lining to this is that if you view the body as basically a year's supply of film, and you shoot enough, then replacing the body every year is economically viable and you only have to live with the problems for one year. If you are an average Joe for whom $2500 is a lot of money, however, you have the right to be pissed.

There. I feel better for that.

[hmhm]

Yavor75 wrote:
... It's the same sensor, next fab run.


The "word on the street" is that the D60 sensor fab was outsourced (Canon design, but outsourced fab). The 10D sensor is being fabbed in-house via a new Canon facility recently brought online. So while the specs are the same, and no doubt the design virtually identical, the cost to manufacture is likely to be significantly less.

Use of their new image processor might possibly have allowed for greater integration and lower cost to manufacture as well. Supporting silicon is likely to have routinely dropped in cost as well.

I can't help but think that a lot of people dropped a very large sum of money on this camera (many/most of whom are hobbyists) without giving proper consideration to the super-high rate of depreciation these products are seeing. They're now faced with the realization that the D60 lost over $1000 in value after just a few months of ownership, and as is typical human nature, instead of taking personal responsibility for that purchasing decision, the blame is directed externally.
-harry

[Yavor75]

HmHm- You obviously don't own a D60 either. A very good percentage of us out here bought the D60 with hopes of making money with it. Although the %2 of rich toy-buyers out there are just funning around with it, lots of us thought it would be as reliable as an average camera- and could be integrated into our stable as another money-making tool. We needed to have this thing earn it's keep. I have to shoot my jobs with my old E-10 - because the D60 isn't reliable. I blew my profits from a bunch of gigs on an expensive camera body from a top manufacturer who advertised it as working.
The 10D should be called the D60B. When software manufacturers fix bugs, they offer an upgrade path.
Canon owes all registered D60 owners a discount coupon towards a 10D. I think I'll register www.D60Lemon.com and make it an ASP driven petition site. This isn't Mexico or Russia. And although many market fundementalists would have our system matriculate into theirs, Our system still has legal safeguards and pathways to obtain justice and enforce responcibility. This is what fairness in advertising laws are about. I started valuing this when I was flying over Soviet Central Asia in a prop plane. There is no recourse in most of the world. In the US, if you sell a defective product- you can be held liable.
So, for those of you who could not afford a D60 and feel like us fat-cats are just power-whining....you are wrong.
oops, i wasn't supposed to post another tome on this string...sorry!

Bob

Bob

[photography By Evangelos]

Were is this D60 lemon sight? I tried going to the link and it will not go.I am also very upset at the D60's claims of a much improved A/F system it plain sucks and the camera is not at all that good.

[jmublueduck]

Yavor75 wrote:
The 10D should be called the D60B. When software manufacturers fix bugs, they offer an upgrade path. Canon owes all registered D60 owners a discount coupon towards a 10D. I think I'll register www.D60Lemon.com and make it an ASP driven petition site.
it's kind of a funny but good idea. I think that'd be great, Bob... even having a place where serial numbers could be registered to keep it serious.

if it's a realistic venture, I say go for it ;)

[hmhm]

Yavor75 wrote:
HmHm- You obviously don't own a D60 either.

I paid $2200 for a D60 from onecall.com in September. I figure it's worth about $1000 today. Ouch. But I anticipated as much when I bought it, as the D60 did to the D30's value what the 10D has done to the D60's value. I'm not too worried about D60 resale value right now, because the 10D's improvements don't seem sufficient to motivate a replacement of my D60.

Having been a buyer of computers for years now, I'm comfortable with the notion that they have very limited lifespans and super-rapid depreciation. You take the purchase price, divide by 2 or 3 years, and that's what you're paying to "rent" it. DSLR purchasers need to assume the same before deciding to make the leap.

Claims that the D60 has high failure rates seem highly anecdotal. If there was a basis for this, you'd certainly be hearing it loudly from the message boards, which are havens for reports of the sky falling, but I don't hear very many.

The D60's autofocus is marginal. Anybody who did some research on the camera would certainly be aware of that, it's the #1 whine. With reasonably fast lenses, though (at least f/2.8 ), it's not "all that bad". Certainly a shortcoming, but hardly enough to invoke conspiracy theories. And these shortcomings have been there since D30 days, so shouldn't be much of a surprise to D60 buyers. People whose living requires high-performance autofocus would have been better served with a 1D (intended as a pro body), or sticking with film for a while longer if the additional expense of the 1D couldn't be justified.

Until very recently, a D60 buyer who was dissatisfied with the performance of his camera could sell it used for very nearly what he paid for it new, and bought something else. If someone had such a negative experience with the camera, I'm not sure why they would hold on to it this long.

If you have a beef against D60 metering or E-TTL, I don't know if there's reason to assume that you wouldn't have similar trouble using the 10D (wherever the problem might be located, fore or aft of the viewfinder). The only improvement that seems "assured" is that autofocus will be somewhat improved, but still not as good as the true pro bodies (e.g. 1D, 1Ds).

A common complaint is that a $2200 camera shouldn't have shortcomings, which would certainly be true if we were talking 35mm film body. Problem is, in 2002 a $2200 DSLR was dirt-cheap. So cheap that people (at the time) couldn't believe how cheap this was. It was the lowest-end DSLR you could buy. I can understand the argument that $2200 is too much for a product with "lowest-end" capabilities, but that argument should lead to a decision to not buy, not a decision to criticize the manufacturer.
-harry

[Dans_D60]

So I purchased a new Dell desktop computer system last March. 2.0 Gigahertz, 256 meg of memory, 60 gig hard drive. No Firewire. No USB 2.0. No DVD-RW. Cost $1680. The price dropped $200 exactly one week after I bought it. Today Dell offers a 2.66 Gigahertz, 512 meg memory, 120 gig hard drive, with Firewire and USB 2.0 plus a DVD-RW for $1387. The current book value on my computer is $700. Is the Dell I purchased last March a lemon? Should I demand a swap-out program? I don’t think so. Sure it’s frustrating knowing you can get much more for less….welcome to Moore’s law and the digital world. The D60 is a great camera. I’m still amazed at the breathtaking image quality even at 20X30 inches. Some even rival medium format. Limitations? Yes. Is the 10D a much better price/performance deal? Of course it is. Will there be even a better deal next year? You can bet on it. If the pain of owning your D60 is so bad, I suggest selling it while you can recoup a good chunk of your investment and look elsewhere … Nikon … Hmmm … ya ought to read the forums on the D100 …
Dan