Please help! Proposal due today!!!

[braggindesign]

Here is the quick of what is going on. I got offered a HUGE campaign opp. There is a local fitness club with 5 locations that needs 100 photos for each and asked me to put together a proposal. They recently re-branded and have NOTHING with the new name. I get the feeling that they don't really know what this actually entails. I know that they have the money to spend on a good campaign and that I can give them one. That being said I don't want to sell myself short nor appear greedy. What does $20,000 sound like. Also they have the potential to bring me more work and I can consider them a new client! HELP!!!

[stitchbug]

That's $40 an image. I don't think that's greedy!

[braggindesign]

I didn't either but when you see the proposal and see $20,000 on it I got a little gun shy. Is it too low? Thanks for the response.

[zelseman]

What are they actually paying you to do? Just take 100 pictures? All the post processing? Do they get all the rights?
There are a lot of questions to answer before telling you if 20k is a good number.

[braggindesign]

500 pictures, to be put on a disk to be used at their disposal for the next 2 yrs.

[PhotosGuy]

What are they actually paying you to do? Just take 100 pictures? All the post processing? Do they get all the rights?
There are a lot of questions to answer before telling you if 20k is a good number. It's too late now, but for future reference, the first question I ask is "What are you going to use them for?" This gives me an indication of what I need to use & how I'm going to have to shoot "it".
The second is, "What's your budget?"

Now I know if I even want to discuss the job. The combination of the two questions gives me a range of pricing, depending on what rights they need & what rights I'm willing to convey with the images.

[joe.morgan]

It's too late now, but for future reference, the first question I ask is "What are you going to use them for?" This gives me an indication of what I need to use & how I'm going to have to shoot "it".
The second is, "What's your budget?"

+1 bw!

[braggindesign]

It's too late now, but for future reference, the first question I ask is "What are you going to use them for?" This gives me an indication of what I need to use & how I'm going to have to shoot "it".
The second is, "What's your budget?"

Now I know if I even want to discuss the job. The combination of the two questions gives me a range of pricing, depending on what rights they need & what rights I'm willing to convey with the images.

We met today and got more into specifics such as what they would be used for and what was the budget... The job has since changed, it is now 20 images of each of the clubs (100 images) to help promote each club via the website, flyers, and other marketing tools.

That being said they are uneducated on exactly what this may entail and think (like many) that anyone with a point and shoot can do this. So lets throw you a couple 100 dollars and whammo! "You should be able to get 20 pics in like 20 minutes or so." They have done this before and as we went over the pics he repeatedly said "well I like the idea of this one but would want it like this." or "this is a good idea but maybe if this weren't in the picture and it were taken from this angle." What to do...? They have spent in upwards of MILLIONS of $'s in renovations and creating this whole new feel and do want the pictures professionally done. How do I get them to see that the imagery that they use greatly contributes to their clients perception? I do not want to be over bearing and believe that this could be lucrative for all parties involved, I am at a loss.

So, now what?

[zelseman]

Explain to them that they want to hire you to do a service: make their establishments look the best that it/they can through images. Explain that you will return a professional product, but that your professionallism and experience costs money and you expect to be able to use your knowledge in the execution of your image taking.

[braggindesign]

Explain to them that they want to hire you to do a service: make their establishments look the best that it/they can through images. Explain that you will return a professional product, but that your professionallism and experience costs money and you expect to be able to use your knowledge in the execution of your image taking.

Well said.

And I will type up my new proposal still asking $40 an image. I do not think for one minute that because someone else could do "it" for free that I should undermine my talent by trying to do the same. My vision IS worth something. And is this even too low?

[drdiesel1]

Well said.

And I will type up my new proposal still asking $40 an image. I do not think for one minute that because someone else could do "it" for free that I should undermine my talent by trying to do the same. My vision IS worth something. And is this even too low?


They dropped the number to save some money, so bump yours to make some.

The shoot was worth 20K before they change things around, so the price per shot should reflect the overall loss of the gig IMO.
I think I would shoot for 10K and explain this is a 50% savings over the original proposal. You know 20 pix will turn into more no matter how you slice it.

[Rubi Jane]

Was the original job really for 100 images of each of the 5 locations, or could you have misunderstood for 100 images between 5 locations?

You think they are not sure of what they need, I'd step up and help show them what they need. If you met at one of the locations I'd do a full walk through with them and point out the various shots you envision and how it would showcase their locations. Ask if there are any differences between the locations that should be captured.

Then figure out how much time it will take to shoot each location, edit & process, burn to disc etc. Then add a license fee for a 2 year license based on their expected usage. If they can't articulate the usage give them a choice; either define some general usages (website, brochure, press release, mailers etc) or full rights, each with an appropriate price tag. If they take the more general usage option specifically outline the license parameters and explain any additional usage will require a separate license.

I can't say if $40/image is a good number. My experience is that clients without a specific plan & use in mind often only use 25% of the images they license from a shoot. Clients sometimes have grand plans and overestimate their needs. After they think a little more they scale it back for cost & complexity. Sometimes less is more - this especially goes for designing marketing/communication materials.

[egordon99]

Wow! If I charged $40/image for my last wedding, I'd have made $28,000!

Yeah, I know apples and oranges, but still :-)


(maybe I should stop off at our Y after work :lol: )

[braggindesign]

Wow! If I charged $40/image for my last wedding, I'd have made $28,000!

Yeah, I know apples and oranges, but still :-)


(maybe I should stop off at our Y after work :lol: )

That is true. I don't know how much you charge for a wedding but even at the $700 you just spoke of even multiplying that by the five different locations (which is about 182 + miles/or 3 hrs + of driving) that is 3500. Which is 35 bucks a shot <smiles> ...and I would try one of the more corporate of the fitness clubs in your neighborhood ;)

[Zansho]

Let's think about this.

What is it going to cost you to do this job? Will you need specialized equipment? Need assistants? How much travel time? What about post production time? Will you be allowed to shoot without any outside interference (meaning is the place going to be closed while you shoot?)? Licensing fees will need to be determined PER image - and is this a nationwide ad, statewide, local, what?
Do they need full rights to the images (doubtful)?

You need to find out all of this, and more - how much time will they allow you to shoot and turn around the product? Do they need it as a rush job (gonna cost a LOT more) or can they wait a couple of weeks to have you turn out your stuff?

If it was 5 locations, 20 images per location, and travel time was somewhat minimal and they wanted the photos in 2 weeks, I'd submit a bid of about 8-10k - maybe even as high as 12k.

[braggindesign]

Let's think about this.

What is it going to cost you to do this job? Will you need specialized equipment? Need assistants? How much travel time? What about post production time? Will you be allowed to shoot without any outside interference (meaning is the place going to be closed while you shoot?)? Licensing fees will need to be determined PER image - and is this a nationwide ad, statewide, local, what?
Do they need full rights to the images (doubtful)?

You need to find out all of this, and more - how much time will they allow you to shoot and turn around the product? Do they need it as a rush job (gonna cost a LOT more) or can they wait a couple of weeks to have you turn out your stuff?

If it was 5 locations, 20 images per location, and travel time was somewhat minimal and they wanted the photos in 2 weeks, I'd submit a bid of about 8-10k - maybe even as high as 12k.

I have all of the equipment, no assistant, will be about 200 in the end (will need each converted to b/w) , about 3+ hours travel (182 miles) , club will be both closed and open for shots, don't care about rights, and as far as I know it is local ( local being our 7 cities ), no time limit but the sooner the better...

[PhotosGuy]

Let's think about this.

What is it going to cost you to do this job? Will you need specialized equipment? Need assistants?... Need model(s)? The people who will be there when you have it open for shots will probably not be sort that they will want representing them in their campaign?

[braggindesign]

So the bidding war is over. He said "we are moons apart. $5000 apart." So the going rate for 200 images from 5 locations (to them) is maybe $500.

Can't win them all.

[Rubi Jane]

Perhaps they'll call you back after they hire someone for $500 and get crappy images ;)
Sorry to hear they don't value good photography. It seems all too common.

[PhotosGuy]

Perhaps they'll call you back after they hire someone for $500 and get crappy images How would they know the difference? :D

[gravy graffix]

touche'!