PLEASE Help a Student Out!

[OLC37]

First of, my apologies for what I am sure is a redundant question. However with a little advice I can get shooting straight away and hopefully become part of this photography community.

I am a student who is going to begin courses in Photography with in this year. A digital SLR is required I have began to seriously think of photography as a career. I will be trying out many different styles and disciplines, photojournalism, fine art, portrait, commercial and weddings. With my main focus being in Photojournalism specifically Sports, Football and Mixed Martial Arts. I will be looking for a camera which would fit into a students budget with the quality of pictures that I could

a) Submit to the local Newspapers and magazines
b) Photograph some local high school football games and sell prints from my website
c) Be able to handle private modeling..etc
d) Not be too totally confusing me as it will be a learn as I go type of venture and I would like to have started on my portfolio before I start school.

I am a student so I don't have the megabucks but I have thought about this seriously enough to empty out my wallet for.

I have been looking at these various models


Canon EOS Rebel T1i (http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cameras/canon-eos-rebel-t1i/4505-6501_7-33567129.html)
Canon EOS 40D (w/ 28mm-135mm lens) (http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cameras/canon-eos-40d-w/4505-6501_7-32572246.html?tag=mncol;lst)
and the Canon XTi and XSi digital rebels

However I am quite lost, please help! Any of your expertise and advice will be greatly appreciated,

I apologize once again for a question that I am sure is asked and answered every day, please see it inside of you to help out this eager student!

Thanks,
- OL

[Karl Johnston]

Get a canon eos 40D and skip that lens. Instead get a 85mm 1.4 and a 430 EX II

If you shop around you can often find all of that for under $1300.

Prepare to be bombarded, however, with opinions.

Honestly you can't go wrong. Any camera out there, nikon, pentax, canon, made after 2004 (preferrably not a rebel; just do yourself a favor and skip the whole series all together) will be optimal.

Also skip olympus.

IMHO.

[OLC37]

Get a canon eos 40D and skip that lens. Instead get a 85mm 1.4 and a 430 EX II

If you shop around you can often find all of that for under $1300.

Prepare to be bombarded, however, with opinions.

Honestly you can't go wrong. Any camera out there, nikon, pentax, canon, made after 2004 (preferrably not a rebel; just do yourself a favor and skip the whole series all together) will be optimal.

Also skip olympus.

IMHO.

What about Cannon 40d vs Canon XSI with the 85MM?

[tfd888]

I'll second getting the 40D. Lens would depend on your shooting style so maybe getting a nifty-fifty (Canon 50mm 1.8 Mk II, $99US) would be a good starting point to help determine what you would want and then definitely go for the 430EXII at minimum.

[OLC37]

I'll second getting the 40D. Lens would depend on your shooting style so maybe getting a nifty-fifty (Canon 50mm 1.8 Mk II, $99US) would be a good starting point to help determine what you would want and then definitely go for the 430EXII at minimum.

I will be shooting Highschool Football games, well lit at night and Mixed Martial Arts events, Well lit inside stadiums.

I will also be doing portraits/modeling gigs.

[tfd888]

I will be shooting Highschool Football games, well lit at night and Mixed Martial Arts events, Well lit inside stadiums.

I will also be doing portraits/modeling gigs.

Then if you were to get one lens, I would say get the 70-200 2.8L IS since that would give you the length, speed, and versatility to shoot those sports and do portrait/modeling work in one lens but it is quite a hunk of change for one ($1500-$1800). You might want to look at the Tamron or Sigma 70-200 2.8 lenses (around $700-$900) as well if you can't afford the L or look at the non-IS version of the Canon 70-200 2.8 (around $1000-$1200).

[emilysium]

Another good option if you're just starting out is to get the 18-200. There's nothing out there with a greater range. Plus, since you're trying so many different things, you'll need that range.

Even so, 200 will be a little short for football. For sports, you generally want something with a very low aperture and a really long range, so that you can get a tight crop with a clean background.

Either way, for a first lens, I highly recommend a zoom. Primes are (supposedly) better quality, but you don't need that right now - you're learning and you need to think about composition, composition, composition.

The 40D is probably your best choice. You wouldn't want to go lower, because if you have any aspirations in photography, you'll eventually want to upgrade. Even if you go full frame, the 40D will always be a great backup.

[neilwood32]

I will be shooting Highschool Football games, well lit at night and Mixed Martial Arts events, Well lit inside stadiums.

I will also be doing portraits/modeling gigs.

If you think these events are well lit, I think you might find a problem.

Unless they are in a small minority, they will be lit well enough for normal viewing but for shooting at relatively high speeds (1/400 or shorter), most gyms are approaching borderline for shooting except for high ISO, wide open (f2.8 or wider).

I would agree with the 40D, its performance is way better than a T1i.

Lens wise, I would try the 85L and 50 1.8. You will need the wide apertures. IS is not worth having for sports (unless you get a lens with it for no more cost than the non IS version) because you need the shutter speed for freezing motion.

I would not go for the 18-200 as it is not normally fast enough for indoor shooting (both AF and aperture), however it would make a good lens for things other than sport.

Also look at buying your camera and lenses used - it will save a bundle of cash!

[Invertalon]

I would suggest the 40D as well.

Lens wise, how much are you willing to spend? :D

[CosmoKid]

how is it that this guy doesn't even have a camera yet and people are recommending him 70-200/2.8 IS and 85Ls?

here is my recommendation:
40D ($600)
Tamron 17-50 ($325 used)
Nifty 50 ($99)

then worry about a football lens in the summer as the sport starts approaching.

Lighting is also very important.
For $250-$300 you can get some eBay flashes, triggers, stands and umbrellas.

[Karl Johnston]

XSI would suit you just fine too, though more FPS and better build in the 40D would suit you better.

XTI I don't recommend because of its light meter isn't as accurate as the 40D's is.

Though if you really work with any of them then you'll grow into using anything, no matter what it is. 18-200 is an excellent lens to have on there, too. I think Sigma may make a cheaper one than Canon...with or without IS I can't recall.

[OLC37]

Went browsing around today couldnt find any canon 40d's locally but I did find this deal could any-one give me an idea if this would be suitable for my needs (photojournalism/sports/portraits)

Canon 50d with 28 - 235mm Lens also with 70 - 300mm IS telephoto lens plus backpack for $1859.97

[OLC37]

Ok I just talked to someone at the school and they said a 40D might be a little much right now for someone starting out and lower models offer enough quality to put together a good portfolio and have submissions accepted in newspapers. With that said I think I am going to go for

Canon EOS Rebel XSi Digital SLR Camera (Body only)
Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II Camera Lens
and...
This is where I ask of your assistance again, someone please suggest the final lens I need for shooting sports mainly Football/Mixed Martial Arts events. Please help me find the last piece of this puzzle as I am eager to get snapping away!

[Rich1884]

Well an original digital rebel or a 10d, coupled to the cheapest-lens-on-the-market - 50mm f/1.8 will likely give you more than enough firepower to take great photos. I'll respect you more for taking a great pic with that combo than the guy with a 1D and an arsenal of L lenses.

[Pmolan]

Put up a number on what you want to spend.

[LBaldwin]

To the OP,

Although I applaud your wanting to make photography a career, may I suggest video instead. The world is quickly moving away from stills for publication. Look up the platypus work shop from Dirck Halstead http://digitaljournalist.org/

The realities of getting still work is that it is tougher and tougher every month. You will probably have to have another job to support yourself for the first 10 to 15 years of your photo career. You will make more cash as a bussboy in a decent restaurant.

Not to rain on your parade but newspapers and magazines are failing at an alarming rate, ad rates that support them are falling and those folks that work there are being let go on a weekly basis. So they enter the freelance market already overflowing with shooters. All well equipped, well educated and talented. One quick way to see this is the number of entries on craigslist by photographers willing to work for free, or even worse, for just a byline.

I know that you were inquiring about gear and that this post is really off topic. But I don't want yoo to sink loads of cash and several hours work into something that will be less than 25% chance of actually providing a living wage.

No if you really love photography, you will ignore the ramblings of a middleaged man and go and get the 40d and start your schooling. I wish you much success. Put your cash in the lenses, that is where the true value is the body does not matter one whit.

[Rich1884]

LBaldwin It's sad, but I agree with everything you said when it comes to making a living wage.

Photography truly is the purer art form, but journolistically, video is where the money of CNN & the BBC goes. Still, the fundamentals of the course should hold true for both and I would argue that a good course should fill the technical and business angles. You still need to have the eye for a shot - I've never seen a course that can turn a bad photographer into a good one!

[musicmaster]

Skip the XSI and get the 30D or 40D. Much better in every way, shape and form. Having ISO 3200 as an option is a life-saver, the build is better, AF is better... everything.

[OLC37]

how is it that this guy doesn't even have a camera yet and people are recommending him 70-200/2.8 IS and 85Ls?

here is my recommendation:
40D ($600)
Tamron 17-50 ($325 used)
Nifty 50 ($99)

then worry about a football lens in the summer as the sport starts approaching.

Lighting is also very important.
For $250-$300 you can get some eBay flashes, triggers, stands and umbrellas.

Couldn't find a 40D for $600 any-where.
This is what I have tentatively decided on though budget and me being a new comer,
Canon EOS Rebel XSI Digital Camera
ef 50MM F/1.8 II Autofocus Lens
Canon Zoom Telephoto EF 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 III USM Autofocus Lens

I believe those should suffice yes? The reviews for that Zoom Telephoto said it does the job in regards to sports.

To the OP,

Although I applaud your wanting to make photography a career, may I suggest video instead. The world is quickly moving away from stills for publication. Look up the platypus work shop from Dirck Halstead http://digitaljournalist.org/

Should I possibly go for the T1I then instead? As it comes with HD Video capabilities?

[MT Stringer]

Shooting sports, I have over 30K shots on my 40D. Just remember, you will need a camera with fast frames per second such as the 40D @ 6.5 FPS vs 3 or whatever the Rebel series is. Also, well lit or not, you will need a camera that has ISO capabilities up to 3200. The 40D does this also. It is a well built camera and will serve all of your purposes.
Good luck
Mike

[Wilt]

You could do an acceptable job with the Rebel as far as IQ...

But if you have aspirations for pro work in the future and studio lights are on the horizon, you should skip the Rebel and get the 40D...
- it does not require a hotshoe adapter simply to connect studio lights,
- it has a longer lifetime for the shutter,
- it fits better in hand than the smaller bodied Rebel, and
- the viewfinder is not a much like 'looking down a tunnel' as the Rebel finder is!

There are better ways to earn a living in photography, bypassing photojournalism.

[MG30D]

Couldn't find a 40D for $600 any-where.
This is what I have tentatively decided on though budget and me being a new comer,
Canon EOS Rebel XSI Digital Camera
ef 50MM F/1.8 II Autofocus Lens
Canon Zoom Telephoto EF 75-300mm f/4.0-5.6 III USM Autofocus Lens

I would definitely stay away from the 75-300, read my comments below.

However, the 50 f/1.8 is definitely worth getting....not the best quality, but very practical and great lens for the price, sharp enough for real life use.


First of, my apologies for what I am sure is a redundant question. However with a little advice I can get shooting straight away and hopefully become part of this photography community.

I am a student who is going to begin courses in Photography with in this year. A digital SLR is required I have began to seriously think of photography as a career. I will be trying out many different styles and disciplines, photojournalism, fine art, portrait, commercial and weddings. With my main focus being in Photojournalism specifically Sports, Football and Mixed Martial Arts. I will be looking for a camera which would fit into a students budget with the quality of pictures that I could

a) Submit to the local Newspapers and magazines
b) Photograph some local high school football games and sell prints from my website
c) Be able to handle private modeling..etc
d) Not be too totally confusing me as it will be a learn as I go type of venture and I would like to have started on my portfolio before I start school.

I am a student so I don't have the megabucks but I have thought about this seriously enough to empty out my wallet for.

I have been looking at these various models


Canon EOS Rebel T1i (http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cameras/canon-eos-rebel-t1i/4505-6501_7-33567129.html)
Canon EOS 40D (w/ 28mm-135mm lens) (http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cameras/canon-eos-40d-w/4505-6501_7-32572246.html?tag=mncol;lst)
and the Canon XTi and XSi digital rebels

However I am quite lost, please help! Any of your expertise and advice will be greatly appreciated,

I apologize once again for a question that I am sure is asked and answered every day, please see it inside of you to help out this eager student!

Thanks,
- OL

#1 What's your budget

#2 What's your focus.....I get the imprison that sports and photojournalism are something you want to be able to shoot.

First of all, gear is not everything.....but then again what gear you have can either hinder your creativity or open up opportunities in your creative process.

Second, I would not spend a ton of money on equipment until you know your needs....with that being said do not think to short term that your constantly upgrading....that's a waste of money as well.

For a beginner/student I think the Rebel series you mentioned are fine.....However, you want to shoot sports (which is honestly one of the more expensive forms of photography to get into....but don't let this detour you, it's not like you're shooting the super bowl right.;) )

When shooting sports, particularly football, the games are often at night where the lighting is not ideal to say the least.

Therefore you need:

1. A camera that produces a fast shutter speed
-All the Canon dSLRs meet this requirement, the 40D is a little quicker than the T1i
2. A camera that is light sensitive enough to use a fast shutter speed
-I'll explain this in a minute
3. A lens that allows enough light to come into the camer, to obtain a fast shutter speed.
-I'll explain this also
4. A Camera that can take enough images quickly to capture the action

In order, to take a photo that involves action at night, i.e. football, you'll need a camera that has a high ISO range. The higher the ISO the more sensitive the camera is to light. The more light, the faster the shutter speed can be while still allowing enough light to hit the camera sensor for a proper exposure. Both the 40D and T1i can shoot up to 3200 (they can be pushed with in camera software, but that's not ideal). You may want to read reviews to see which camera produces cleaner images at high ISOs. I have a 40D, and it's fine, but I have no experince with the T1i.

Second, you want a quick lens that allows lots of light to hit the camera sensor. Most sports photographers use lenses with an f-stop of 2.8 (or faster), i.e. f/2.8. This means the "hole" / Aperture of the lens is very wide. For instance, f/1.2 is very wide and may allow one to take a photo at a low ISO at a shutter speed of 1/8000 of a second. While at f/11 it may take a higher ISO and shutter speed of 1/125 of a second to obtain a proper shutter speed. Thus a combination of a high ISO and and fast lens of f/2.8 would be preferable.

The big game changer in camera choices between the two, in my opinion, is the number of frames per second, i.e. the number of photos the camera can take in a second. As a sports photographer / photojournalist this is very important. As a portrait or landscape photographer, this is pointless.;)

The T1i can take 3.4 fps while the 40D takes 6.5 fps. Most sports photographer use a 1D, the newest models shoots 10 fps.

Another thing to consider is weight and layout. The 40D or higher series cameras have a two wheel set up that is very easy to change camera settings while keeping your eye in the viewfinder, e.g. change shutter speed, aperture, and ISO. The T1i, involves buttons which are slower. Also, if your using a long lens for sports, the T1i may be too small and light, that it makes it awkward to hold steady. Go to best buy (don't buy anything....it's a rip-off), but play around with the 50D and T1i....you will quickly notice this difference.

I recommend checking out KEH.com. They are a used camera store, that sales used gear in nearly mint condition. They have a 40D for $645 right now.

If you post your budget, it would help a lot in giving you some options.

Gear I've owned and sold:
30D (traded up to 50D through Canon)
28-135 IS
50 f/2.5 macro
50 f/1.8 II

Current Gear:
Camera Body
Canon 40D
Canon 50D
Canon 350D
Mamiya 645E (Medium Format Film)
Mamiya 1000MX Auto CS (35mm Film)

Lenses
Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6 EX DC HSM
Canon 28mm f/1.8 EF USM
Sigma 50mm f/1.4 EX DG HSM
Mamiya-Sekor 50mm f/1.7 (1000MX)
Mamiya-Sekor 80mm f/2.8 (645E)

Lighting
Canon 580EX II

[BeritOlam]

A used 30D or 40D would be a great starter camera.

As for getting good photos at a night game or gymnasium....that 75-300mm doesn't stand a chance in Sheol of getting you usable pics.

[tfd888]

A used 30D or 40D would be a great starter camera.

As for getting good photos at a night game or gymnasium....that 75-300mm doesn't stand a chance in Sheol of getting you usable pics.

I'll chime in with the rest, don't even look at the 75-300mm for sports. If budget is tight, take a look at the Sigma or Tamron 70-200mm 2.8 lenses new ($799 and $699 respectively) or used ($500 range).

[jen19806]

I went with the Xsi when I bought my first SLR, and while I think it is a really nice entry level camera, once I took a class and learned about exposure, I realized the lack of a thumb wheel on the back slows me down now that I am comfortable shooting in manual. If I had it to do all over, I might get the 40D now. Having said that, the best camera to have is the one you use, so if an Xsi is what is in your budget, get it.

[HappySnapper90]

I will be shooting Highschool Football games, well lit at night and Mixed Martial Arts events, Well lit inside stadiums.

I will also be doing portraits/modeling gigs.

If you want to be doing all of that, don't expect to find a decent lens or lenses in your budget.

Even though you think high school football games are well lit, in photography exposure they are not in part because you'll need 1/500 shutter speed or so to freeze action. Which means you'll be using your highest iso and shooting wide open.

The Canon 100 f2 runs around $400 or a little more and it'll do well for portraits and can be usable for indoor sports. But it won't give you much reach for high school football. You'd need a 70-200 f2.8 ($1000 or so) to get better reach. You'll need f2.8 or faster aperture so don't consider any 70-300 f4-f5.6 lens because you'd be at f5.6 as wide open at 200 or 300mm which will mean shutter speeds 2 stops slower than at f2.8 (1/125 shutter speed vs. 1/500)

[MG30D]

If you want to be doing all of that, don't expect to find a decent lens or lenses in your budget.

To the original poster, OLC37, I hope your checking back here...there's some valuable advice being given.

But, please listen carefully to the following......

Don't be discouraged by what you're hearing.

At the end of the day photography can be expensive, and unfortunately lenses that are jack-of-all-trades are "masters-of-none"....in other words each lens is specialized for a specific purpose....and a lens that goes from 18-200mm is most often not worth the money spent.

But if you're smart....photography doesn't have to be costly.

Some beginner mistakes I made, that I would do different are:

1. Buying new
- I do not necessarily recommend Ebay, but KEH.com is great.
2. Buying to much at once
- Your better off buying a lens or two and seeing what you really need.
3. You can always rent
- If your only shooting football games at your high school a few times, than buying a $1000 lens is ridiculous sense it's way out of your budget, however you could always rent a lens for the game. For example, a good site for rentals is http://www.lensrentals.com/. The only catch is if your not being paid, it may be hard to justify paying money to rent. But if you break even or just pay a little, you'll be adding to your portfolio something that you originally could not afford to shoot.

I would really need to know your budget to give you better advice, but just off the top of my head my list would of considerations would be:

- A Used 40D or some XXD series camera......unless you really want to explore video, than a T1i or T2i

- A Used: Canon 28-135 IS, Tamron 17-50 f/2.8, Canon 50 f/1.8, Canon 85 f/1.8 or 100 f/2, Canon 430EX, ST-E2.....again don't buy these all at once (or necessarily all of them at all, i.e. the overlap of a 28-135 with a 17-50 and 100 f/2 is sort of pointless)....create a logical list of needs and buy as needed or when you see a great deal. Also, Sigma is coming out with some new lenses shortly, that sound great....Keep on eye out for there release. I've seen people use the 85 or 100 for indoor basketball games....but football is kind of out of budget with out a rental, in my opinion.

[Rich1884]

Wow, people ragging on the 75-300mm. Ok, it's not a great lens but a lot of the bad press is down to the way people use it.... People tend to shoot at 300mm and wide-open. It's just not that kind of lens.

It says something that you can shoot at 200mm and crop to get a better result!

Still, stay away from full-zoom and stop down to f/8 and you'll have some servicable pics.

[Veemac]

...Still, stay away from full-zoom and stop down to f/8 and you'll have some servicable pics.

While I wouldn't argue the point that you can get some decent images from the 75-300 (under the right conditions), the OP is talking about shooting night football and MMA events in arenas. Under those conditions, it would be pretty brutal to get a fast enough shutter speed to shoot sports at f/8.