Bl¨†?¥ exposure compensation!!!

[I Simonius]

I have just looked at 40 shots taken with accidental (i.e. completely inadvertant) minus 1 and 1/2 stop exposure compensation

THIS IS TOO EASY TO DO CANON! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

This must be my Biggest complaint with the 20D!

:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

[robertwgross]

Let me get this straight, Simon.

You dialled in 1.5 stops of exposure compensation and shot 40 photos, then you complain that the camera should have prevented you from doing this?

I don't think so.

In the future, you can block your own responsibility in this by setting the main power switch to only the first On position, not the second one.

---Bob Gross---

[Jim_T]

This is a pain sometimes.. I've been caught this way.. It usually happens when you use EC, then put the camera away and later when you dig it out, forget you had EC selected.. Another way is to bump the wheel on the back (for bodies that have the wheel).

Yes, you have to watch closer, but people are only human, they make mistakes :)

[Belmondo]

I think it's just part of the learning curve. If you periodically check your histogram, you should catch a problem like this long before you've done 40 shots.

[Curtis N]

I haven't made that mistake, yet. I'm sure my day is coming.;)

There is a scale in the viewfinder that indicates EC, (at least there is on my 300D). So I think it's hard to blame Canon for this, since they put the information right in front of us. After reading comments from the pros throughout this forum it's evident that they ALWAYS look at the viewfinder info.

Some of life's best taught lessons are learned though our own mistakes.

[blue_max]

Along with setting a higher iso. Perhaps a setting that defaults all settings to standard automatically on start up (if selected). That might do it.

Graham

[wilflee]

I did the same thing some time ago. Wasted an hour fixing exposure afterwards.

One suggestion is to get in the habit of turning the camera to the "ON" position without enabling the big dial on the back of the camera. I think Canon provided a separate switch position just for this purpose.

I'm still new to the world of auto-focus, so I find my self frequently holding down the shutter button to lock focus while waiting for the subject to appear. Sometimes, I accidently move the big dial and mess up the EC. The switch position disabling the the dial is a saver.

[I Simonius]

Let me get this straight, Simon.

You dialled in 1.5 stops of exposure compensation and shot 40 photos, then you complain that the camera should have prevented you from doing this?

I don't think so.

In the future, you can block your own responsibility in this by setting the main power switch to only the first On position, not the second one.

---Bob Gross---

Yes, and it is very easy to do by accident, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have done it, so - I do think so, irrespective of what you think!

;)

[I Simonius]

This is a pain sometimes.. I've been caught this way.. It usually happens when you use EC, then put the camera away and later when you dig it out, forget you had EC selected.. Another way is to bump the wheel on the back (for bodies that have the wheel).

Yes, you have to watch closer, but people are only human, they make mistakes :)

It usually happens when I have been using manual and ,because the camera changes wheel function in manual (for some bananas reason), I end up setting it to the white line, then maybe I change the exposure mode from evaulaytive to partial, then next thing I know is I have EC'd myself!

Christ knows Iv'e used EC enough in trhe past with manual camewras and never had this happen. With so many controls, especially which change function according to the camera's whim, it needs to be more idiot proof.

[I Simonius]

I think it's just part of the learning curve. If you periodically check your histogram, you should catch a problem like this long before you've done 40 shots.

Is is a steep curve!

I will shoot 40 shots easily on one subject if it has potential, ,like the Norfolk show recently where the masai were joining in witn the local schools to do the maypole dance, I had used 1GB card up so fast in RAW I had to change to jpg. Things were happening fast and the idea of checking the histo is completely new to me, someone so used to film

But with Film it was hard not easy to make this kind of mistake-ergo the camera is badly designed :mad:

[I Simonius]

I haven't made that mistake, yet. I'm sure my day is coming.;)

There is a scale in the viewfinder that indicates EC, (at least there is on my 300D). So I think it's hard to blame Canon for this, since they put the information right in front of us. After reading comments from the pros throughout this forum it's evident that they ALWAYS look at the viewfinder info.

Some of life's best taught lessons are learned though our own mistakes.

I guess; but I have to put my glasses on to read the LCD

[I Simonius]

Along with setting a higher iso. Perhaps a setting that defaults all settings to standard automatically on start up (if selected). That might do it.

Graham

yeah or something, cos otherwise you have to double check ( put glasses on) the EC everytime you use the large wheel

Actually I do check all my settings BEFORE going out, but it's AFTER, I get caught out

[Andy_T]

Hehe ... happened to me too, difference was that I somehow changed the mode dial from 'A' to 'M' without noticing it.

Lesson learned ... you SHOULD chimp now and then :confused:

Best regards,
Andy

[I Simonius]

Let me get this straight, Simon.

You dialled in 1.5 stops of exposure compensation and shot 40 photos, then you complain that the camera should have prevented you from doing this?

I don't think so.

In the future, you can block your own responsibility in this by setting the main power switch to only the first On position, not the second one.

---Bob Gross---

rereading your post I realise you might have thought I origianlly dialled in the EC deliberately then forgot it. Nope. I had no idea it had been dialled in.

[CyberDyneSystems]

That's what I thought too.. that you had dialed it in...

What a bummer.. :(

In the latter instance (accidental bumping of the dial) the second half of Bob's post is germaine..

Canon has given You the option every time you turn your camera on and off of setting this so it is not possible.

I for one like to have EC available at the touch of a thumb.. quickly and easily.. so I use the main dial. I would not have it any other way. The Drebel cameras don't have this option and I can't stand there control layout for this very reason. But previous Rebel owners can still turn offf the main dial if they are used to not having it.... and don't want it.

So in the 20D, Canon has given you either option.. both availble when you turn on your camera,. and also via custom function... to use or not use the main dial for EC,.. so it's a bit of a stretch to blame Canon for how you chose to use the cameras controls when so many options as to how you use them have been provided.

[I Simonius]

That's what I thought too.. that you had dialed it in...

What a bummer.. :(

In the latter instance (accidental bumping of the dial) the second half of Bob's post is germaine..

Canon has given You the option every time you turn your camera on and off of setting this so it is not possible.

I for one like to have EC available at the touch of a thumb.. quickly and easily.. so I use the main dial. I would not have it any other way. The Drebel cameras don't have this option and I can't stand there control layout for this very reason. But previous Rebel owners can still turn offf the main dial if they are used to not having it.... and don't want it.

So in the 20D, Canon has given you either option.. both availble when you turn on your camera,. and also via custom function... to use or not use the main dial for EC,.. so it's a bit of a stretch to blame Canon for how you chose to use the cameras controls when so many options as to how you use them have been provided.

Noi I would not complain if I had initially dialled it in deliberately, that's just a memory quyestion, but this is a sneaky trick issue, and it'sthe camera being sneaky!

Anyway...I HAVE set the option so it resets
That's not my beef
My beef is that it is too easy to set accidentally WHILE shooting
-and NO it is ALWAYS their fault! :lol: :lol:

Seriously though can I turn the main dial off JUST for EC?
I am not clear about how to do this, can you explain it?

I have just gone through all the CFs and can't work it out, so please explain in very simple terms if you can??

[Curtis N]

I have to put my glasses on to read the LCDI haven't (yet) had to deal with this issue, as my vision is still close to 20/20. I would think that the dioptric adjustment lenses available should correct this. Am I right? Shooting without being able to see the viewfinder data would seem to be a great disadvantage.

[theflyingkiwi]

it is events like this that make one relaise that chimping is your friend and it can help you out. unless I am shooting sports I chimp. I find it usefull to also understand the histogram then I can retake the shot by correcting my mistake.

And this is always a good reminder that one should always check the camera settings, even during a shooting :)

I am not to sure on the 20d but on the 10d there is a switch to turn of the big wheel so things like this doesn't happen. I know it has saved me a few times. :)

[CyberDyneSystems]

My mistake on the CF function.. that's with the 1D and I think the 10D had it.. but the 10D did not have the power switch option...

[robertwgross]

Seriously though can I turn the main dial off JUST for EC?
I am not clear about how to do this, can you explain it?


If you turn the main power switch to the second On position, then the rear dial is enabled for anything that it does, such as for changing exposure compensation. However, if you turn the main power switch to the first On position, that disables the rear dial. In essence, that locks it. So, if you previously set exposure compensation to Zero, it would stay locked at Zero even if you play with the rear dial. Sometimes a user will set exposure compensation very specifically and accurately to be +0.5 for some special subject, and then he wants to lock it there. So the first On position does that. All of this is covered in Advanced Operations of the book. If you don't want to do Advanced Operations, then leave the switch at the first On position.

---Bob Gross---

[I Simonius]

I haven't (yet) had to deal with this issue, as my vision is still close to 20/20. I would think that the dioptric adjustment lenses available should correct this. Am I right? Shooting without being able to see the viewfinder data would seem to be a great disadvantage.

My vision was brilliant - I mean really good all my life until I got to 50 then -crap!
I blame it onstaring at computer screens for the last 5 years. Actually my optician told me it would have been worse if I had worn glasses at 14 when I was told to , but I refused. When I say refused -I mean I put a red filer in the right eye and a blue one in the left. :lol: :lol: That peed them off. I also never wore shoes and have verruca-proof soles to this day

Anyway I find it very hard acepting I'm Mr Magoo. The Dioptre adjustment in the VF does hep, so at least I can see the VF but not the LCD with out glasses, which BTW get tangled in the camera strap, :evil: I suppose Im lucky at ;east that Im long sigted not short.

SO- the more VF data on display the better AFAIC

[I Simonius]

If you turn the main power switch to the second On position, then the rear dial is enabled for anything that it does, such as for changing exposure compensation. However, if you turn the main power switch to the first On position, that disables the rear dial. In essence, that locks it. So, if you previously set exposure compensation to Zero, it would stay locked at Zero even if you play with the rear dial. Sometimes a user will set exposure compensation very specifically and accurately to be +0.5 for some special subject, and then he wants to lock it there. So the first On position does that. All of this is covered in Advanced Operations of the book. If you don't want to do Advanced Operations, then leave the switch at the first On position.

---Bob Gross---

Let me try to make this clear

It is not that I don't want advanced operations, it is that I don't want them by surprise!

I understand that somethings can be turned off, but you don't try to turn something off if you haven't realised you turned it on. That switch is TINY. It can only be turned with 100% reliability to the 'on' position by looking at it, when I'm used to turning a camera on while concentrating on my prey.

If you are using manual then the dial is enabled - you then alter metering mode,(all the while concentrating on your subject and squinting to see the metering mode changes) and the dial touches your clothing or hand, you have just inadvertantly changed the EC! BAD DESIGN

When one has only been using a camera as complicated as the 20D for a few months and intermittantly at that, when the last camera one used was the F1ns, full time, there is one helluva lot to remember or forget, or get confused about, especially when you have a scene in front of you requiring differnt lenses and metering modes as it changes rapidly

The F1ns controls were automatic for me and no doubt in time the 20D's will be, (or eventually the next itteration of the 1D that I hope to get). Perhaps it is second nature to the new generation of photographers brought up on digital, but the transition for manual camera users must be a biggger step. With the F1ns I used manual most of the time, the metering was CLEAR and knobs and dials didn't change function depending on what mode you were in.

The 20D isn't any where near as consistant or easy to use. There is a LOT to learn. When in addition to making the controls work you have to learn how not to make them work by surprise then that is clearly a design fault in my book

Perhaps I still carry too much of the F1 design ethos in my blood, it was the perfect film camera IMO, everything was where it should have been and did what it was supposed to do and intuitively. OK so whenn I changed form Nikon to Canon (Many many years ago) It took a while to learn to focus in the opposite direction, but at least you saw the mistake immediately, whereas with the 20D the abundance of options, some illogically placed makes for a steeper leaning curve than necessary. That never used to be Canon's philosophy

I'l get there, but don't blame me for getting hot under the collar occasionally, as you shouldn't have to adapt to bad design :evil:

[robertwgross]

I'm sure that the Canon engineering department has gone to great lengths to get a design that works for 99% of the users. Alas, there is always that 1% out there...

Hanging on the wall of the engineering lab, they have a sign:
"There is a fool who can overcome every foolproof scheme."

---Bob Gross---

[I Simonius]

I'm sure that the Canon engineering department has gone to great lengths to get a design that works for 99% of the users. Alas, there is always that 1% out there...

Hanging on the wall of the engineering lab, they have a sign:
"There is a fool who can overcome every foolproof scheme."

---Bob Gross---

So I'm a fool am I?
Thanks that's so helpful :rolleyes:
That'sbit like saying there was nothing wrong with the 10D, or any number of previous cameras, like only fools find problems. Not big , not clever.

[robertwgross]

So I'm a fool am I?


Not necessarily. You just haven't taken the time to get used to your camera yet. The longer you use the camera, the less surprised you will be by anything that it does, good or bad.

---Bob Gross---

[I Simonius]

Not necessarily. You just haven't taken the time to get used to your camera yet. The longer you use the camera, the less surprised you will be by anything that it does, good or bad.

---Bob Gross---

At least your stating the obvious, that habit accomodates both good and bad design, concedes that not all the design is good
:rolleyes:

[BigRed450]

Simon, the 10D design as in the 1 series incorporate 2 power switches. One is the main power switch the other is for the rear command wheel which locks it out for certain adjustments ie EC. With the 20D however, they integrated the 2 into one switch with two positions.
Sorry to hear about your issues with the 20D design, but if you are having trouble with that, you are really going to be in for a surprise if you step up to the much more advanced 1 Series cameras...

[ScottE]

But with Film it was hard not easy to make this kind of mistake-ergo the camera is badly designed :mad:
On my EOS 3 film camera exposure compensation works exactly the same way. Press the shutter button 1/2 way to wake up the camera and then turn the dial on the back. This is not something new. It is a convenience feature that Canon has been using for a long time for those of us who use exposure compensation. Nothing is worse than a camera where you have to reset compensation after every shot when you are doing photography on a sunny day in the snow or at the beach. This is not bad design.

How times have changed! When I started photography we had to manually set the camera for every shot. The auto exposure came in, but it wasn't that reliable so you watched for reasonable settings anyways. Now we rely on the camera to do our thinking for us to the extent that we will take 40 shots with out even checking that it is making reasonable decisions.

[robertwgross]

Simon, I don't know about your camera, but on mine, the rear dial does not move by a simple brush against clothing. I have to put my thumb on it and move it. So, the design is not bad for 99% of is, but your particular sample might be broken.

---Bob Gross---

[ElleG83]

Along with setting a higher iso. Perhaps a setting that defaults all settings to standard automatically on start up (if selected). That might do it.

Graham
heh... yeah... i shot with ISO 1600 for about a week or so before i remembered it was up so high from a different assignment... :o

[I Simonius]

Simon, the 10D design as in the 1 series incorporate 2 power switches. One is the main power switch the other is for the rear command wheel which locks it out for certain adjustments ie EC. With the 20D however, they integrated the 2 into one switch with two positions.
Sorry to hear about your issues with the 20D design, but if you are having trouble with that, you are really going to be in for a surprise if you step up to the much more advanced 1 Series cameras...

Oh squit!
Why is that? :-(
I mean I know there'll be more knobs and dials perhaps but are there more inconsistancies, like the wheels changing function when you switch to manual, and more possible booboos like the EC switch that is too easy to do by mistake?

I had suspected that although more involved it could be logically laid out. Logic I don't have a problem with, it's easy booboo zones and illogical things ( like those above) that I have a problem with. :cry:

[I Simonius]

Simon, I don't know about your camera, but on mine, the rear dial does not move by a simple brush against clothing. I have to put my thumb on it and move it. So, the design is not bad for 99% of is, but your particular sample might be broken.

---Bob Gross---

Bob, I really don't care whetrher it's OK for 99% or not. It's like when you take something back to the shop and all you ever get is " well sir , that's strange, no one else has brought one back"

I DON"T BELIEVE IT! :lol:

You have plucked 99% out of the air, but like the 'We haven't had anyone else bring one back"' syndrome - I don't buy it. If I can have this problem then so can others, and I would frankly be surprised if it is only 1% of users *who use this function* that have encountered this problem.

I quite accept you don't have a problem with it. I'm not suggesting you , or other experts like yourself , will find this a problem. What I am suggesting is that for 99% of people with my level of expertise, who actually use the functions I use, itg will be , and more importantly something could quite easily be done about it.

What I also very particularily disagree with you about is that one should just accept that human fallabilities are not to be considered when designing a product. That is patently incorrect. That would in fact be bad design.

In my book if a mistake is too easy to make it is bad design. 99% or no. By bad design I don't mean it is utterly crap - I mean there is clear room for improvement. It's like a trapdoor in the stage with a dodgy lock. 99% of people might not fall through it. But why not repair it just in case 1% does.

Any company that doesn't look for improvenments in their design will fail. Canon DOES look for improvements. Here is one area that is begging to be looked at. Not because you, or 99% of those like you are happy wit it but because a CUSTOMER who isn't would appreciate the improvement.

Whether brushed against or not that fact remains that it is too easy, by what ever mechanism, to move tthe large wheel unintentionally when in manual mode and adjusting the metering mode, (especially if like me you can only see it by putting glasses on or squinting). Perhaps I couldn't find the right knob, who knows, I was in a hurry, the camera sometimes doesn't respond immediately as you'd expect, sometimes I turn a wheel and nothing happens, sometimes the wheel is the wrong one ( i.e. it has changed its function) the point is it happens, without my being aware of it.

Yes I am a beginner with the digiatal DSLR, yes I will adapt to these things, but good (better) design caters for those at my level not just those at yours.

[I Simonius]

heh... yeah... i shot with ISO 1600 for about a week or so before i remembered it was up so high from a different assignment... :o

MANY (99%) :lol: have asked for the ISO to be in the VF.

[Icecamp]

I have usually caught it in the viewfinder or in the LCD. The times I miss it is when I dial it in and forget to take it out, then pick up the camera and start shooting. I have gotten in the habit of looking at the histogram and usually catch that mistake there. I too like the ability to dial EC in at the touch of a thumb, and I find the use logical. To my mind the thumbwheel doesn't really change function when you switch to M, it performs the same function: changes a parameter that results in a different exposure...EC for all intents and purposes. It's just that there is no EC in manual mode, so it seems logical to me that the wheel does what it does.
I have owned an EOS A2 and EOS 3 and they work in the same manner.

[nosquare2003]

MANY (99%) :lol: have asked for the ISO to be in the VF.

Is there an indicator for exposure compensation in the viewfinder?

[MikeCaine]

I think he's talking about ISO now and not EC

[nosquare2003]

I think he's talking about ISO now and not EC

I knew it. But it seems that showing the EC in the VF did not help him...

[MikeCaine]

Ah, I see :-)

[I Simonius]

Ah, I see :-)

One of the reasons I'd llike a clearer VF in the next buy :cool:

[Belmondo]

Just out of curiosity....

Has anyone seen a better setup on a competitor's SLR?

It would seem to me that having a camera that defaults to zero EC after, say, the passage of a certain amount of time or after powering up, would be just as much a thorn in the side of some users as the possibility of forgetting you've set it to minus 1 1/2.

Making it an option just adds another layer of complication to a camera where it would seem the learning curve is already steep for many newer users.

[DSMITH131]

Buy a PS( point and shoot)

[CyberDyneSystems]

This is the thing I have been biting my tongue on...

To say the 20D is bad design (and this is just my opinion) would mean that every other cameras ergonomics.. including the 1D.. is worse.

I have said this on this forum at least a dozen times in different threads.. (and drawn the ire and flack from dozens of defensive 1D users for saying so... and stand ready in asbestos to hear it yet again)

The 20D is the best designed, most advanced control and menu systems on any Camera I have ever used.

I think it is far superior to the aging tired and crusty system that the 1D series continues to perpetuate.. the hold over from the 1V film bodies..

With every one of the cameras released since the D30.. in this line.. Canon have improved.. IMPROVED the menu and control system on each model dramtically!

4 bodies later.. with some tricks learned from the 300D as a fifth.. the control menu system on the 20D is the best there is.

Again.. my humble opinion.. but I want EC to be easily accesible.. (you can turn it off at the dial,.. you can see it's efffects in the viewfinder etc..)

I want menu items to be easely and quickly changed.. with one hand.. not three. :)
There is no better control/menu system out there. :)

[I Simonius]

Just out of curiosity....

Has anyone seen a better setup on a competitor's SLR?

It would seem to me that having a camera that defaults to zero EC after, say, the passage of a certain amount of time or after powering up, would be just as much a thorn in the side of some users as the possibility of forgetting you've set it to minus 1 1/2.

Making it an option just adds another layer of complication to a camera where it would seem the learning curve is already steep for many newer users.

I must emphasise that I only have a problem with the fact that it can be set IN THE FIRST PLACE accidentally.

Any amount of other setting options as CFns I have no problem with, at least then the camera behaves predictably, and these levels of complexity are at the discretion of the operator

Currently though it is like having a car that puts the handbrake on because you put the car in reverse (i.e.surprise )

[I Simonius]

Buy a PS( point and shoot)

yes that will solve all my problems. What a clever idea.

[I Simonius]

This is the thing I have been biting my tongue on...

To say the 20D is bad design (and this is just my opinion) would mean that every other cameras ergonomics.. including the 1D.. is worse.

I have said this on this forum at least a dozen times in different threads.. (and drawn the ire and flack from dozens of defensive 1D users for saying so... and stand ready in asbestos to hear it yet again)

The 20D is the best designed, most advanced control and menu systems on any Camera I have ever used.

I think it is far superior to the aging tired and crusty system that the 1D series continues to perpetuate.. the hold over from the 1V film bodies..

With every one of the cameras released since the D30.. in this line.. Canon have improved.. IMPROVED the menu and control system on each model dramtically!

4 bodies later.. with some tricks learned from the 300D as a fifth.. the control menu system on the 20D is the best there is.

Again.. my humble opinion.. but I want EC to be easily accesible.. (you can turn it off at the dial,.. you can see it's efffects in the viewfinder etc..)

I want menu items to be easely and quickly changed.. with one hand.. not three. :)
There is no better control/menu system out there. :)

Are you saying the 20D is better layed out than the 1D range??
Jeeps! - best I check the next version thoroughly afore I buy lest I be doubly baffled!


Let me say that I do not think the whole of the 20D is bad design,I don't -quite the opposite!I think it is fantastic! It's only this one aspect I have beef about, and I reacted strongly because it took me completely by surprise, and that I find very annoying.;--)

OK CDS I concede that you're right that there's no better system out there:-)
That doesn't maen this one can't be improved further though.
The problem does exist, as I have found out, so perhaps a CFn could be made to solve it?

But a simpler option would be to not have the wheel enabler so easily turned on by mistake, rather have it so the 'on' switch needs more travel to enable. (That is assuming I have understood correctly that to enable EC you set the on switch to the white line)

Anyway --why do you have to set the wheel to the white line to change aperture in manual??i.e. why isn't it automatically enabled when you slect 'M' -I'm sure the answer is obvious but it eludes me at the moment

[hopmedic]

I think it's just part of the learning curve. If you periodically check your histogram, you should catch a problem like this long before you've done 40 shots.

I've seen a lot about histogram. I consider myself to be probably an average ametuer photographer, but have only just begun working digitally. What do you use the histogram for?

Thanks!

Rich

[AjP]

I always shot manual setting and every time I'm finisheing any even, I put every setting back to normal, this way I secure myself to accedentaly make mistake later., what the point to complaine about Human error

[I Simonius]

I always shot manual setting and every time I'm finisheing any even, I put every setting back to normal, this way I secure myself to accedentaly make mistake later., what the point to complaine about Human error

Great idea , but what to do when the error happens at the start of a shoot as mine did?? :(

[rfreschner]

However, if you turn the main power switch to the first On position, that disables the rear dial. In essence, that locks it.


It is not that I don't want advanced operations, it is that I don't want them by surprise!

I too had this unfortunate experience and overexposed somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 images before I realized it. I just can't easily see the EC indicator in the VF and since I didn't change it, as far as I was concerned ,there was no reason to look at it anyway. I was in the middle of a two day charity walk without my manual and couldn't figure out how to stop it from happening after I noticed it.

Once I got home and looked at the manual I found that this could be avoided by moving the power switch to the first On position, as Bob states. But, I didn't really want to do that and lose the functionality of the rear dial. After much searching through the manual, I realized that I really had no choice so I started using the first On position exclusively.

Since that time, I've found that the rear dial isn't totally locked out; in fact it will allow you to change most settings (including the EC if you deliberately use the button on top to select it rather than pressing the shutter release half-way). The only thing I've found that I can't change with the power switch in this position is the aperature while in Manual mode, which I don't use very often. There might be others, but I haven't run across them yet.

So, while this is an annoyance, for me it has turned out to be a very minor one.

[I Simonius]

I too had this unfortunate experience and overexposed somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 images before I realized it. I just can't easily see the EC indicator in the VF and since I didn't change it, as far as I was concerned ,there was no reason to look at it anyway. I was in the middle of a two day charity walk without my manual and couldn't figure out how to stop it from happening after I noticed it.

Once I got home and looked at the manual I found that this could be avoided by moving the power switch to the first On position, as Bob states. But, I didn't really want to do that and lose the functionality of the rear dial. After much searching through the manual, I realized that I really had no choice so I started using the first On position exclusively.

Since that time, I've found that the rear dial isn't totally locked out; in fact it will allow you to change most settings (including the EC if you deliberately use the button on top to select it rather than pressing the shutter release half-way). The only thing I've found that I can't change with the power switch in this position is the aperature while in Manual mode, which I don't use very often. There might be others, but I haven't run across them yet.

So, while this is an annoyance, for me it has turned out to be a very minor one.

Surely it is in manual mode where one is most likely to want to control both shutter speed and aperture AND change metering mode?

- and surely it is this combination that is most likely to result in EC disasters

-so, as a frequent manual user this is something I will have to learn to always check, everytime I change metering mode in fact or risk ruined shots. To me that is more than a minor annoyance. It is decidedly miffworthy.
;)

[CyberDyneSystems]

Surely it is in manual mode where one is most likely to want to control both shutter speed and aperture AND change metering mode?

- and surely it is this combination that is most likely to result in EC disasters

-so, as a frequent manual user this is something I will have to learn to always check, everytime I change metering mode in fact or risk ruined shots. To me that is more than a minor annoyance. It is decidedly miffworthy.
;)

Not too frequent a manual user I guess.. as EC is totally non funtional in manual mode... it simply doesn't even exist in manual. This is true of any camera.. EC is only pertinant to and was only created for cmaeras using some form of autoexposure.

[Belmondo]

Not too frequent a manual user I guess.. as EC is totally non funtional in manual mode... it simply doesn't even exist in manual. This is true of any camera.. EC is only pertinant to and was only created for cmaeras using some form of autoexposure.


Zing!!

[I Simonius]

Not too frequent a manual user I guess.. as EC is totally non funtional in manual mode... it simply doesn't even exist in manual. This is true of any camera.. EC is only pertinant to and was only created for cmaeras using some form of autoexposure.

You're quite right of course!
I must have set it after I used manuelle without realising the wheel was still set to the white line for manual. How or why I turned the large wheel is anybody's guess.

I now realise I was more confused about the controls than I realised :confused: - Just when I thought I was getting the hang of this digital malarkey! Aaaaagh!

I still wish there were some way to either turn the large wheel *on* automatically for manual, without it also applying it to the EC function in other modes. It does mean , does it not, (tell me if I have this wrong) that whenever switching from manual you have to also remember to turn off the white line to the wheel function. I would much prefer a different button, or to be able to assign a diffferent button, to actuate the EC function, it would be no more difficult than turning the <on/off> switch to the white line, and a lot less open to inadvertant use

I might have understood this sooner if on page 81 of the manual, where it expalins manual operation, it repeated what is at the very bottom of page 83 in tiny print
"Take care not to turn the <large dial icon> and change the EC inadvertantly. To prevent this turn the <on/off icon> switch to <ON>"

This should have an exclamation mark set against it, with the warning apply to when one changes mode from Manual to any other in the creative zone

[BigRed450]

Simon, I have been working with an older couple (retired) who just recently purchased a Digital Rebel. They are very familiar with film SLRs, but are really having a problem trying to grasp this new technology and all its bells and whistles. They are overwhelmed by this camera.
My suggestion to them was shoot in AV mode (aperature priority /semi auto) rather then manual. You have paid good money for a camera with advanced metering capabilities why not use it. Do you also use manual focus all the time? Then why would you use manual exposure. You must make it a habit to leave the back wheel turned OFF. Turn it on ONLY when needed, then turn it off as soon as the adjustment is made.
Simon, there is no need to be so critical with your exposure due to the wide latitude (10+ stops Dynamic Range) of digital. You need not bounce back and forth with the EC. You are not shooting slide film. For instance, my 10D is set for 0 EC indoors and - 1/3 EC for outdoors to protect highlights, simple, I set it when I go outdoors. The 1Dmk2 on the otherhand stays at 0 EC always and exposures are always bang on no matter how tough the lighting... I am sure the 20D will be the same.

Simon, you have a wonderful camera that once learned will serve you well. Take a little time, experiment, and read the manual. You will be truly amazed at what this camera is capable of above and beyond film....

[AJSJones]

I like the display of the EC in the VF and can't wait for the display of ISO alongside it. Simon, think of the scale in the VF as "the little red light that indicates the brake is on", and your eye will react accordingly. If the EC had been accidentally set and there had been no VF indicator, I'd agree with your tirade about Canon. As it is, it's one of the "d'oh" moments we all go through as we learn how to operate complex tech objects. It did take me a while to realise that the circle on the right in the VF indicated focus confirmation - and its flashing indicated lack thereof. D'oh!

Andy

[nigelch]

. so it's a bit of a stretch to blame Canon for how you chose to use the cameras controls when so many options as to how you use them have been provided.
Basically, it is the difference between amateurs and professionals. Professionals use one setup all the time, OR check the specific setup carefully before shooting. Equally, a professional AS A MATTER OF COURSE checks shot No1 on the LCD just to check all is well. Shooting 40 pix 1.5 stops out is what I would call a learning experience... Use the Image>Adjust>Shadows/Highlights and you will learn a very good tool AND probably rescue a lot of your shots.
Canon give you all the options imaginable so you cannot possibly gripe here about it not being available, and then when you fail to understand how it works and get duff results, you blame the kit.
Remember the famous Weegee quote about "f8, and be there".
(email me if you want an explanation........)
N

[I Simonius]

Simon, I have been working with an older couple (retired) who just recently purchased a Digital Rebel. They are very familiar with film SLRs, but are really having a problem trying to grasp this new technology and all its bells and whistles. They are overwhelmed by this camera.
My suggestion to them was shoot in AV mode (aperature priority /semi auto) rather then manual. You have paid good money for a camera with advanced metering capabilities why not use it. Do you also use manual focus all the time? Then why would you use manual exposure. You must make it a habit to leave the back wheel turned OFF. Turn it on ONLY when needed, then turn it off as soon as the adjustment is made.
Simon, there is no need to be so critical with your exposure due to the wide latitude (10+ stops Dynamic Range) of digital. You need not bounce back and forth with the EC. You are not shooting slide film. For instance, my 10D is set for 0 EC indoors and - 1/3 EC for outdoors to protect highlights, simple, I set it when I go outdoors. The 1Dmk2 on the otherhand stays at 0 EC always and exposures are always bang on no matter how tough the lighting... I am sure the 20D will be the same.

Simon, you have a wonderful camera that once learned will serve you well. Take a little time, experiment, and read the manual. You will be truly amazed at what this camera is capable of above and beyond film....

Thankyou for your advice. You make the very good point that yes I am used to exposing for slide film with its tight lattitude.

I have read the manual at least 3 times but it's a lot to take in, I'll take your advice and leave manual alone for a bit.

[I Simonius]

I like the display of the EC in the VF and can't wait for the display of ISO alongside it. Simon, think of the scale in the VF as "the little red light that indicates the brake is on", and your eye will react accordingly. If the EC had been accidentally set and there had been no VF indicator, I'd agree with your tirade about Canon. As it is, it's one of the "d'oh" moments we all go through as we learn how to operate complex tech objects. It did take me a while to realise that the circle on the right in the VF indicated focus confirmation - and its flashing indicated lack thereof. D'oh!

Andy

Thanks it should have been a 'doh' moment, but I got out of bed the wrong side that day!

[I Simonius]

Basically, it is the difference between amateurs and professionals. Professionals use one setup all the time, OR check the specific setup carefully before shooting. Equally, a professional AS A MATTER OF COURSE checks shot No1 on the LCD just to check all is well. Shooting 40 pix 1.5 stops out is what I would call a learning experience... Use the Image>Adjust>Shadows/Highlights and you will learn a very good tool AND probably rescue a lot of your shots.
Canon give you all the options imaginable so you cannot possibly gripe here about it not being available, and then when you fail to understand how it works and get duff results, you blame the kit.
Remember the famous Weegee quote about "f8, and be there".
(email me if you want an explanation........)
N

Thanks, no I don't need an explanation of Weegee, or Atget, or Kertesz, or HCB, thanks anyway.

The difference between amateurs and profsssional is that professionals make money at it. There are good and bad in both camps. Good Professionals take time to learn their equipment beforee they use it professionally. That's what I'm doing. Not that I'm working as a professional any more. I will no doubt get used to using the LCD , it is still an oddity to me so far (to check it , not its existence), but I'm used to not getting my results for hours, but then I was using equipment I was fully familiar and confident with. This is completely new equipment to me and while I am impressed by just about everything else, this (needing the same button to turn on aperture function in Manual that turns on EC) IMO is a flaw in an otherwise phenomenal design.

I'm not complaining that Canon hasn't put a facility in, which I make clear in my other posts, but that there is one facility which could bear improvement, because it creates confusion. I'm not 'blaming my tools' - I'm expressing my pissedoffness at ONE function that annoyed me when I encountered it.

[robertwgross]

In the technical support arena, that is called headset error.

---Bob Gross---

[AJSJones]

Thanks it should have been a 'doh' moment, but I got out of bed the wrong side that day!

I know the feeling :-0

[SidW]

Of all the threads I have read regarding the "faults" of the 20D this one takes the cake.
I'm so glad I did'nt see it before I bought mine.
Sid

[I Simonius]

Of all the threads I have read regarding the "faults" of the 20D this one takes the cake.
I'm so glad I did'nt see it before I bought mine.
Sid

It is not so bad as to affect a buying decision!:eek:

It is a <please correct this in the next version> gripe, not an <I wouldn't have bought this if I knew> gripe ;)

[MarkH]

So what do you think Canon should do on the next version?

I am thinking that there could be a custom function that can be enabled which makes the EC only available by pressing a button and then turning the wheel.

I once shot some pics at -2 EC, but that was not long after getting my 10D. Doing this was very helpful, it taught me to check the info in the viewfinder and chimp every now and then. You really need to make mistake to learn, nothing in the manual can make you as diligent about checking the settings and making a stuff up and suffering the consequences. For me the biggest problem was the noise introduced by needing to boost the brightness in post production.

[I Simonius]

So what do you think Canon should do on the next version?

I am thinking that there could be a custom function that can be enabled which makes the EC only available by pressing a button and then turning the wheel.

I once shot some pics at -2 EC, but that was not long after getting my 10D. Doing this was very helpful, it taught me to check the info in the viewfinder and chimp every now and then. You really need to make mistake to learn, nothing in the manual can make you as diligent about checking the settings and making a stuff up and suffering the consequences. For me the biggest problem was the noise introduced by needing to boost the brightness in post production.

Yeah a Custom function would do it for me, although I would also prefer to have the two wheels operate automatically in manual, seems bonkers to me to have that extra step to turn aperture access on