CF Cards losing space over time?

[Stan Jones Photography]

I was talking to a photographer today and I was deleting files and he was talking to me about how when you delete files from your CF card for every image that's deleted it takes a super super super super super small piece of memory with it... and I guess you can lose up to 1MB of memory from deleting on-camera and not formatting your card.... whats the scoop on that?

[Jon]

Well, it may not be quite as linear as that, but if you delete individual files, you don't delete the directories they're in, and the card doesn't necessarily reuse the directory entry fields. Plus doing a reformat will essentially scan the card for errors in the process.

[themadman]

They way flash works is they store multiple bits in a single cell. This might be causing what you consider to be your flash card getting smaller. I believe a complete erase doesn't really have these issues while individual file erase over time may.

[eelnoraa]

No it does NOT lose space. It is how the file system handle things in flash, harddrive, or any mass storage device.

[int2str]

Wow, some people come up with some crazy theories...

Short answer: No.
Long answer: Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooo ;)

[Woolburr]

The answer is yes....the card space does become smaller if you just erase the pictures.

This is a freshly formatted 2gb CF card. Nothing on it at all.
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Added 4 empty folders. Notice that the card is no longer full capacity. If you just erase the pictures, it leaves an empty folder behind each time. Do this over a period of time and you will definitely notice the capacity of your card is decreased. Formatting the card after each use is the simple solution.
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[int2str]

The answer is yes....the card space does become smaller if you just erase the pictures.

No, the answer is NO.
Please don't confuse people or start urban legends people may get attached too.

Added 4 empty folders. Notice that the card is no longer full capacity. If you just erase the pictures, it leaves an empty folder behind each time. Do this over a period of time and you will definitely notice the capacity of your card is decreased.

That is just plain wrong. Not sure what your powershell there does or what your recycle bin settings are like. But erasing a file does not in any way diminish the CF card, which is what the OP was asking. Whether the OS leaves behind files for file restoration etc. doesn't change that basic fact.

Your test seems also flawed initially because 4 empty folder do not take up 130kb.

Do your little test there again using the windows file explorer (assuming your on windows). Now highlight the 4 folders and press Shift+Del. Confirm and check the storage capacity again. If it's not 0 there's something wrong with your OS :p

If you erase the files in camera or properly in the OS, no capacity is decreased. And even if you just let the OS do it's thing, the capacity of the CF card itself is never altered.

Formatting the card after each use is the simple solution.

It certainly doesn't hurt, but it's not necessary either.

[Woolburr]

No, the answer is NO.
Please don't confuse people or start urban legends people may get attached too.



That is just plain wrong. Not sure what your powershell there does or what your recycle bin settings are like. But erasing a file does not in any way diminish the CF card, which is what the OP was asking. Whether the OS leaves behind files for file restoration etc. doesn't change that basic fact.

Your test seems also flawed initially because 4 empty folder do not take up 130kb.

Do your little test there again using the windows file explorer (assuming your on windows). Now highlight the 4 folders and press Shift+Del. Confirm and check the storage capacity again. If it's not 0 there's something wrong with your OS :p

If you erase the files in camera or properly in the OS, no capacity is decreased. And even if you just let the OS do it's thing, the capacity of the CF card itself is never altered.



It certainly doesn't hurt, but it's not necessary either.

You are absolutely incorrect. Each empty folder left on a drive does take up a finite amount of space. If you just delete the images instead of formatting the card the folder is indeed left behind, which does over time decrease the capacity of the card. The amount of space taken up is not huge, but the fact remains that it does actually occur. There is no urban legend or myth here...just cold hard facts. The settings on my recycle bin? How on earth do you figure that the settings on my recycle bin have anything to do with a folder on a CF card?

[int2str]

Each empty folder left on a drive does take up a finite amount of space.

Who's talking about leaving folders behind??!!! The camera re-uses the same folder. And when you delete images, you can also delete the folders, you know :p

If you just delete the images instead of formatting the card the folder is indeed left behind, which does over time decrease the capacity of the card.

The capacity of the card is never diminished (only through bad-block allocation, but that's a different story).

There is no urban legend or myth here...just cold hard facts.

Point me to the CF card specs or FAT32 specs that backup your claim.

The settings on my recycle bin? How on earth do you figure that the settings on my recycle bin have anything to do with a folder on a CF card?

Do you have hidden folders enabled in windows explorer? Windows may have decided to create a recycle bin folder on your CF card.

Whatever the heck it is you did, 130kb for 4 empty folders is just wrong and completely invalidates your test.

But again, the simple answer to the OP's question is: No.
Don't confuse the issue.

[Woolburr]

Who's talking about leaving folders behind??!!! The camera re-uses the same folder. And when you delete images, you can also delete the folders, you know :p



The capacity of the card is never diminished (only through bad-block allocation, but that's a different story).



Point me to the CF card specs or FAT32 specs that backup your claim.



Do you have hidden folders enabled in windows explorer? Windows may have decided to create a recycle bin folder on your CF card.

Whatever the heck it is you did, 130kb for 4 empty folders is just wrong and completely invalidates your test.

But again, the simple answer to the OP's question is: No.
Don't confuse the issue.

Deleting photos on the card does not delete the folders. The camera also creates new folders. Over a period of time, you can be left with quite a collection of folders on a card.

The absolute physical capacity of the card is always the same. The usable capacity can be diminished and that is the whole point I was making.

There was no recycle bin created on the card.

The test is not invalid simply because it doesn't support your claim. The fact remains that creating folders does take up physical space. The folders themselves are 0 byte folders....but that doesn't mean they don't occupy any real estate on the card.

The answer remains yes, the usable space on a card can be decreased by simply deleting photos over time.

[RandyS]

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i61/rsamos/smilies/popcorn.jpg

[int2str]

Deleting photos on the card does not delete the folders. The camera also creates new folders. Over a period of time, you can be left with quite a collection of folders on a card.

New folders for what?
Do you have more folders than just /DCIM/CANON100 (for example)?
The camera should re-use that - mine does.

The test is not invalid simply because it doesn't support your claim. The fact remains that creating folders does take up physical space.

It is invalid because 130kb is not the amount that 4 empty folders should take up. Not because I disagree with it.

Your card is formatted wrong. Your card is formatted as FAT(16) meaning it's using 32k blocks. That's where your 130kb come from. Each one of your directory entries is taking up a block. But once you delete the folder it comes right back. Format your card as FAT32 and your block size will probably go down to 4 or 8k.

The folders themselves are 0 byte folders....but that doesn't mean they don't occupy any real estate on the card.

They occupy one directory entry in a directory table. It's only a few bytes, but allocates a single cluster. And after they are deleted they take up 0 bytes.

The answer remains yes, the usable space on a card can be decreased by simply deleting photos over time.

No, that statement is factually absolutely incorrect.

Sorry, I wouldn't usually argue that vehemently and just let it go. But while photography is just my hobby, CF cards and file systems are part of my day job. So while I'm certainly no expert on photo stuff, I am very proficient with this subject matter. And I hate rumors and unsubstantiated claims.

Your ultimate recommendation is correct (formatting). I'm not arguing that. It's just not backed up by factual arguments.

Even if you're right and the camera would somehow create a new folder every time you start shooting and the photographer somehow deletes the pictures but doesn't delete the folders (seems weird to me), it would take hundreds of folders to diminish the camera's JPEG shooting capacity by a single exposure. And simply deleting those empty folders would get it right back without ever formatting the card.

[Jon]

While you may be technically correct, you're completely unable to explain what OP is seeing, which Woolburr has done succinctly and with examples. OP was deleting files, not removing the folders. There are a number of situations where the camera will create folders for you. My 1D3 creates a new folder on my SD card every time it rolls over to that from the CF card. Most of the PowerShots allow automatic folder creation on a daily basis. The user can also create folders voluntarily. Tossing around FAT16 and FAT32 doesn't resolve the issue that OP was experiencing. The fact is that manually deleting files in camera rather than reformatting your card erodes the available space on your card over time. Directories are formed, and grow, but are not removed until you delete the entire card or reformat it.

[Woolburr]

While you may be technically correct, you're completely unable to explain what OP is seeing, which Woolburr has done succinctly and with examples. OP was deleting files, not removing the folders. There are a number of situations where the camera will create folders for you. My 1D3 creates a new folder on my SD card every time it rolls over to that from the CF card. Most of the PowerShots allow automatic folder creation on a daily basis. The user can also create folders voluntarily. Tossing around FAT16 and FAT32 doesn't resolve the issue that OP was experiencing. The fact is that manually deleting files in camera rather than reformatting your card erodes the available space on your card over time. Directories are formed, and grow, but are not removed until you delete the entire card or reformat it.


Exactly....and when I have a person come to me with card issues....it almost always boils down to being someone that deletes photos from the card....not someone that reformats it.

[int2str]

While you may be technically correct, you're completely unable to explain what OP is seeing

The OP is not "seeing" anything. The OP is asking about hearsay.

Woolburr has done succinctly and with examples.

The example is not practical and doesn't provide any useful information.

OP was deleting files, not removing the folders.

The OP was reporting hearsay.

I delete my pictures most of the time. Usually through EOS Utility. I do not have multiple folders that get left behind.

There are a number of situations where the camera will create folders for you. My 1D3 creates a new folder on my SD card every time it rolls over to that from the CF card.

That is an option on the 1D. Most cameras don't do it and certainly not by default. If you enable that option, you know what you're doing.

Tossing around FAT16 and FAT32 doesn't resolve the issue that OP was experiencing.

The OP wasn't experiencing anything.

The fact is that manually deleting files in camera rather than reformatting your card erodes the available space on your card over time. Directories are formed, and grow, but are not removed until you delete the entire card or reformat it.

The CF card isn't loosing any tiny bits of memory (read the OP post) and Canon cameras *by default* don't create arbitrary folders.

You are free to delete the folders (if any) as you would delete a file and can reclaim that space without re-formatting it.

I'm not arguing against reformatting but I am for sticking with FACTS.

[blackhawk]

Wooooow.... this isn't hard.

Format your cards in the cam, every time before you shoot.
Protect cards from ESD and physical abuse, including dirt and sweat.

Replace any cards that shows signs of reduced capacity or damage.

[Woolburr]

The example is not practical and doesn't provide any useful information.

That is an option on the 1D. Most cameras don't do it and certainly not by default. If you enable that option, you know what you're doing.

Canon cameras *by default* don't create arbitrary folders.

I am for sticking with FACTS.

Not practical or useful because it is contrary to your position. ;)

My SX20IS creates a new folder each and every day...not arbitrarily, but by default. I also have the option of changing it to monthly....

There isn't any point in debating this further, because over the course of this discussion, you have yet to provide a single substantiated fact, just your personal opinion.

[garys1]

The mere act of deleting an image does not reduce the cards capacity. If I took a picture NOW and deleted it NOW. No new folder will be created, no bytes lost during the picture deletion process. I started with 7.46GB with 128K occupied by FAT information (Directory entries and such). I took a picture NOW. Card now says 24.2MB used 7.46GB. I deleted the pic NOW and the card info now says 128K used 7.46GB. Until the camera creates new folders the mere act of deleting a photo does not diminish the card's usable capacity. I believe the OP was asking if you loose capacity by deleting pics. And by doing just that and nothing else it2str is correct by saying no space is lost. What you guys are saying goes beyond the mere act of deleting a pic or pics. Dan format your card and take a look to see how much available space you have. Take a pic and check the available space. Now delete the pic and check the available space. I don't think you are going to see any less than when you first formatted the card.

[Woolburr]

The mere act of deleting an image does not reduce the cards capacity. If I took a picture NOW and deleted it NOW. No new folder will be created, no bytes lost during the picture deletion process. I started with 7.46GB with 128K occupied by FAT information (Directory entries and such). I took a picture NOW. Card now says 24.2MB used 7.46GB. I deleted the pic NOW and the card info now says 128K used 7.46GB. Until the camera creates new folders the mere act of deleting a photo does not diminish the card's usable capacity. I believe the OP was asking if you loose capacity by deleting pics. And by doing just that and nothing else it2str is correct by saying no space is lost. What you guys are saying goes beyond the mere act of deleting a pic or pics. Dan format your card and take a look to see how much available space you have. Take a pic and check the available space. Now delete the pic and check the available space. I don't think you are going to see any less than when you first formatted the card.

The info on the formatted card is posted in the example above. Here is one with an image taken and deleted. The folders are empty....you'll just have to take my word on that. As you can see....the card does not register 0....when I take two more images, the camera is going to create a new file.

433218

Now four more photos taken and deleted. New folder created, old folder not deleted by camera even though photos have been.

433221

[garys1]

The info on the formatted card is posted in the example above. Here is one with an image taken and deleted. The folders are empty....you'll just have to take my word on that. As you can see....the card does not register 0....when I take two more images, the camera is going to create a new file.

433218

Now four more photos taken and deleted. New folder created, old folder not deleted by camera even though photos have been.

433221

I gotta try that on my point and shoot. I see what you're saying. If you were to delete that folder that was created, would your card's capacity be the same as when you started?

[int2str]

Not practical or useful because it is contrary to your position. ;)

You still don't get it...
Your test proves that a directory entry uses on cluster on FAT file systems. That's all it proves.

My SX20IS creates a new folder each and every day...not arbitrarily, but by default. I also have the option of changing it to monthly....

Ok. Are you sure that's on by default? No camera I ever owned did this by default, but ok.

There isn't any point in debating this further, because over the course of this discussion, you have yet to provide a single substantiated fact, just your personal opinion.

I have *only* provided facts.
Can't help it if you don't understand that.

*sigh*

Hey look, a unicorn! :p

[int2str]

Now four more photos taken and deleted. New folder created, old folder not deleted by camera even though photos have been.

Deleted HOW?
EOS Utility, file explorer, in camera or otherwise?

If you delete files by hand, why *wouldn't* you delete the folder as well?

[Woolburr]

I gotta try that on my point and shoot. I see what you're saying. If you were to delete that folder that was created, would your card's capacity be the same as when you started?

If you delete the folders on the computer, the card goes back to showing 0 bytes. If you delete the photos in camera like I did, it leaves the folders behind and the resultant space used by the folders and directory structure registers as used space on the card.

[garys1]

You know what? In a way they're right. I tried to do the same thing on my point and shoot. When I started the exercise, my Mac reported 1.1 MB being used on a card freshly formatted in camera. I took several shots, deleted the photos in camera and put the card back into the card reader. Although there are no new folders or any trace of the pics, the system is now reporting that 1.4MB are being used. I'm wondering if the start and ending addresses of the pics I deleted are being kept in the FAT in case they need to be recovered. I reformatted the card in camera and system reported what I started out with 1.1 MB being used. I believe this is one of the reasons why people who do not on a regular basis format their cards in camera wind up with corrupted files. That being said, until the card is reformatted, space is being allocated even though there are no visible signs of any files being on the card. Only reformatting will bring back all the usable space on the card.

[Jon]

Well, we have 4 PowerShot cameras in the house, going back as far as the SD600 (and A630, SX1 and SD990). Every one of them can create a new folder daily.

Many of Canon's cameras create a \MISC directory, used for general housekeeping, including I suspect tracking the files which have been downloaded by ZoomBrowser but not removed. That's not automatically deleted either.

And up through the EOS 20D, Canon's digitals (PowerShot or EOS) created a new folder every 100 frames. Automatically. Without the option to change it. Argue theory all you want, but you have to look at what actually happens in a variety of real cameras. Why not try it yourself, instead of maintaining that you couldn't possibly be wrong?

[int2str]

Well, we have 4 PowerShot cameras in the house, going back as far as the SD600 (and A630, SX1 and SD990). Every one of them can create a new folder daily.

Ok

Why not try it yourself, instead of maintaining that you couldn't possibly be wrong?

I do every day...

I've never claimed that creating a folder doesn't claim space. You guys need to read more carefully.

Anyway, I'm out.
I got blinker fluid to sell...

[garys1]

Well, we have 4 PowerShot cameras in the house, going back as far as the SD600 (and A630, SX1 and SD990). Every one of them can create a new folder daily.

Many of Canon's cameras create a \MISC directory, used for general housekeeping, including I suspect tracking the files which have been downloaded by ZoomBrowser but not removed. That's not automatically deleted either.

And up through the EOS 20D, Canon's digitals (PowerShot or EOS) created a new folder every 100 frames. Automatically. Without the option to change it. Argue theory all you want, but you have to look at what actually happens in a variety of real cameras. Why not try it yourself, instead of maintaining that you couldn't possibly be wrong?
When you think about it, they're both right. You do lose space until you reformat then you actually recover that "lost" space and the card's capacity goes back to it's maximum minus file allocation table data.

[Jon]

When you think about it, they're both right. You do lose space until you reformat then you actually recover that "lost" space and the card's capacity goes back to it's maximum minus file allocation table data.Which is what Wool and I have been saying all along. OP's premise was that deleting files cost card space and he wanted to know why. We told him why and how to avoid it, we didn't tell him that what people see in real life wasn't happening.

[Woolburr]

You know what? In a way they're right. I tried to do the same thing on my point and shoot. When I started the exercise, my Mac reported 1.1 MB being used on a card freshly formatted in camera. I took several shots, deleted the photos in camera and put the card back into the card reader. Although there are no new folders or any trace of the pics, the system is now reporting that 1.4MB are being used. I'm wondering if the start and ending addresses of the pics I deleted are being kept in the FAT in case they need to be recovered. I reformatted the card in camera and system reported what I started out with 1.1 MB being used. I believe this is one of the reasons why people who do not on a regular basis format their cards in camera wind up with corrupted files. That being said, until the card is reformatted, space is being allocated even though there are no visible signs of any files being on the card. Only reformatting will bring back all the usable space on the card.

I think the problem comes into play when people try to over think this. Much like someone saying "your test only proves a folder uses space"....well duh....that is the whole point of it. Every single time someone comes to me complaining their card is corrupt....it is someone that only deletes the files in camera. A quick format and bingo....the corrupt card is back in action.

[garys1]

I think the problem comes into play when people try to over think this. Much like someone saying "your test only proves a folder uses space"....well duh....that is the whole point of it. Every single time someone comes to me complaining their card is corrupt....it is someone that only deletes the files in camera. A quick format and bingo....the corrupt card is back in action.

Yep, why don't we put this to bed and move on...

[blackhawk]

Yep, why don't we put this to bed and move on...

and just format the bloody cards.

[Woolburr]

Yep, why don't we put this to bed and move on...

Seems like a reasonable plan to me. ;)