Stumped on low light action

[ladybelle2k]

Hi all,

Well hope I do all this right as it's my first time posting. I take a lot of action shots, ie. team roping, and have been using my 75-300mm...it's worked out great, however I've been asked to photograph the action in the arena at night. The arena has lighting, but not like a commercial arena. I'm using the digital rebel and my only lenses are the 75-300mm IS and 28-80mm. My thinking is that even with bumping up the ISO to 800 or so, and using the 75-300mm, I won't be able to get enough light to stop the action and avoid blur. Just wanted to ask if I am right on this. I tried with the 75-300 at 400ISO, but sure enough it blurred.

Thanks in advance for any input on this.

Christie

[tim]

You're going to want at least 1/250th of a second to capture action, and in low light that's a hard shutter speed to get. The Sigma 70-200 F2.8 might be a better choice.

[cmM]

you need a faster lens probably, depending on how much light.
a 70-200 f/2.8 would be better. a 200 f/1.8 even better. Night sports are quite hard to shoot well.

[ladybelle2k]

Thanks Tim and CM...I was affraid you'd bring up that lens...LOL...just not in the budget right now....but it's on the wish list for sure. I figured that was the lens I'd need but just wanted to see if there was any way to make my current equipment work. :cry:

[eastcoast909]

Depending on where you live you might be able to rent the lens you need.

Check it out. Most weekend rentals are not that expensive, plus you get to practice with a lens you might want to buy.

.... and yes you need a faster lens for indoors in a rink. Try checking out some posts on what is required to shoot hockey. Much the same idea and venue.

Good luck

[ladybelle2k]

Thanks for the reply John....unfortunately I live on a ranch in the country so no chance of renting any photography equip...heck the closest photo store is 2 hours away...a real bummer...I buy everything online. On the Arena, it's an outdoor arena and my daylight shots are good...using sports mode, tripod and 75-300mm lens....but that's daylight. I was wondering if bumping the ISO to 800 or even 1600 and setting the shutter as fast as the lens will go if that would help....but maybe not.

Thanks again for the replies all...appreciate the input.

[LastLine]

I'll follow onto this topic. What's a good all rounder for low light conditions? It'll be mostly close up, don't need huge zooms or anything, just be capable of performing well in very low light.

[buze]

Might try a 135 f2 ? it's fast, nowhere near as expensive as the 200 f1.8 (that is going for BONKER prices on ebay, for a lens you can't even get repaired anymore!) or 70-200 I$ L...

[LastLine]

What sort of price does the 135 go at? Sounds ideal, but is it a prime or a proper zoom lens? The 70-200 IS L sounds pretty nice too, but what's it's appature, and quite frankly, how much is it gonna hit me?

[tim]

What sort of price does the 135 go at? Sounds ideal, but is it a prime or a proper zoom lens? The 70-200 IS L sounds pretty nice too, but what's it's appature, and quite frankly, how much is it gonna hit me?

Any lens listed with one focal length is a prime, which this one is. The 135 might not be long enough, depending on the sport. Primes given slightly better pictures than zooms, and the term "proper zoom lens" is kinda funny :p

[LastLine]

Yeah I know ;) Funny stuff.

Still, worst case with the prime I could always use the multiplier I suppose.

[Curtis N]

I was wondering if bumping the ISO to 800 or even 1600 and setting the shutter as fast as the lens will go if that would help...I have used the DRebel with similar lenses in low light conditions. With that equipment, I have found that high ISO settings aren't just the best option, they're the ONLY option for attaining a fast enough shutter speed to reduce motion blur.

My usual approach is to use ISO 1600 with the lens wide open in Av mode. This way you know you are getting the fastest shutter speed possible. If you get faster shutter speeds than needed then you can back off to ISO 800.

This will produce significant digital noise which can be reduced to tolerable levels with Noise Ninja or similar software. There simply is no way to produce tack-sharp pictures of moving subjects with that equipment in low light conditions. You may be able to produce acceptable 4x6 prints but probably not impressive enlargements.

[Andy_T]

you need a faster lens probably, depending on how much light.
a 70-200 f/2.8 would be better. a 200 f/1.8 even better. Night sports are quite hard to shoot well.

Another newbie with a 300D and kit lens, and in the 3rd post the 200/1.8L is suggested as alternative.

Sounds a bit over the top for me ... but that might just be me:lol:

A very good lens for low light sports on a budget ($350) is the 85/1.8.
It is sharp at f/1.8 and should give you sufficient speeds with ISO 1600 ... to hell with noise, use some noise correction program later like the free noiseware community edition.

Best regards,
Andy

[Curtis N]

the term "proper zoom lens" is kinda funnyA "proper zoom lens" is one that provides the range in field of view necessary, given the nature of the subject and the distance.

Chistie is shooting a rodeo competition. The action moves quickly and unpredictably from one side of the arena to the other, from quite close to quite far. She may want shots which include both the horse/roper and the calf with 40 feet of rope between them. She may also want closeups of the roper to capture his expression.

While the maximum aperture of affordable zoom lenses is an obvious limitation for any indoor sporting event, the recommendations of prime lenses previously posted seem almost comical to me, given her situation.

[eastcoast909]

Ok, outdoors.

I did a quick check over at Fred Miranda and found this thread:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic2/239692/0#1974124

You might want to take a look at it. I did a search there in the "Sports Corner" just using the term "rodeo" and came up with more than enough posts to look through.

The quick answer is that night is not easy, action at night is reallly not easy and that both usually equate to $$$.

Try looking at different posts and check out what most people seem to be using for a lens. They are probably using a lens that is at least a f2.8 or faster.

[Citizensmith]

Definitely start taking advantage of some noise reduction software, there is some great stuff available for little to no money. Hack your camera so you can get ISO3200. Very noisy, but perfectly acceptable once its cleaned up.

Lens wise I'll suggest 50 1.8, 85 1.8, 200 2.8, or 70-200 2.8. The first two are the cheapest, but you'll probably be cropping alot. The second two are the 'pro' choice but come with an assoicated 'pro' expense.

Personally, my goto low light combo is either the 24 2.8 or 85 1.8 wide open with the camera on ISO3200. Sure, not the most optically perfect but it'll take photos in very low light conditions.

[Citizensmith]

While the maximum aperture of affordable zoom lenses is an obvious limitation for any indoor sporting event, the recommendations of prime lenses previously posted seem almost comical to me, given her situation.

And given her statement that the Sigma 70-200 2.8 is out of her budget any other zoom lens suggestions are just as comical. A prime will be the only way she can afford a fast lens, and it'll be faster than any zoom. The compromise is limitations on framing and probably having to crop a lot back home, but if it means you can at least get the photo in the first place its a compromise that is worth making.

[Sean-Mcr]

Got to be a prime on that budget, and as smithy said it's a trade off. But many many serious sports photographers shoot with primes, in fact it's the first thing thing many would reach for.

[Curtis N]

And given her statement that the Sigma 70-200 2.8 is out of her budget any other zoom lens suggestions are just as comical.You may be right, but we don't know, since she hasn't yet tried any ISO setting over 400, nor has she posted any images for us to know how bad they are or what shutter speed she was using. Going from ISO 400 to 1600 could mean the difference between 1/60 shutter speed and 1/240, and it wouldn't cost her a dime.

[Headcase650]

With your current equipment, shoot wide open at ISO 1600 like stated above and back off the ISO if you can.

Shoot RAW!, if wide open and fast shutter is underexposing you can bump up the exposure in the raw conversion and use noise reduction to get fairly good images.

[Sean-Mcr]

It all boils down to how good the light is where she's shooting. If' it's poor then a zoom even at 2.8 is going to struggle let alone F4

[djtowle]

FWIW here are my tips.

1. location, location, location. As they are asking you to shoot the event, try to get the best access you can, the closer the better. Pre-scout shooting locations that you can move between to get the best views for each event. You might also find some areas that are brighter then others.

2. I may catch some flak on this, I think zooms are a bit overated for sports. I would go with a prime lens for weight, focus speed, low light, narrow depth of field (to pull out the action) and one less thing to worry about the zoom. WIth good access to the event and by scouting your locations, bring your lens(s), you can pretty much eliminate your need for a zoom.

3. Lens choice, if a lens were in the budget I would reccommend the following in order of increasing cost, the 200 2.8l (fabulous lens at a total bargin price); 135 f2L (possibly Canon's best current lens, and my favorite); 300 f4l is (maybe too long, but you'll have to decide based on the location).

4. flash: If you have a (big) flash this might help. You might try it with a Better Beamer http://www.birdsasart.com/accs.html#BEAMER If using the flash I would do some experimenting before-hand with exposures. I would also shoot in manual mode (I think the rebel does that?) and let the flash stop the action and handle the exposure. I would set the camera aperture 1-2 stops down from max (f4.5-5.6?), and keep shutterspeed realatively low try 1/30 - 1/60 - 1/125 to let in enough ambiant light to balance the flash on the main subject with the background, which will hopefully be out of focus and a bit blurry. Also set the camera to 2nd curtain sync if you can. If you find you are getting double exposures: one from the flash and one from the ambient light you'll have to turn up the shutter speed. This (flash) takes a lot of trail and error at 1st and I would reccommend ambient light if possible.

5. With the lens you have I would reccommend setting ISO to highest you can 1600? shoot in AV or Manual mode with lens wide open or 1-1.5 stops down if possible. and be prepared to do some post processing with noise Ninja.

6. I would also reccomend a tripod or mono-pod to take the weight. These cameras get heavy after 2-3 hrs and I know I can't hold the camera as steady at the end of an event as I could at the begining. A monopod can be a saver here. Practice panning with the action. (cars on the highway can be good practice). Panning with longer shutterspeeds can give a nice effect of motion and help keep some parts of the subject sharp.

7. If you are using your 75-300 try to get to locations where you can use it in the 100-200mm range, you'll have less problems with camera motion blurring things.

Hope some of this helps, good luck with your shoot, sounds like great fun!