Hobbyist vs. Pro

[luvsadog2]

I have a silly question .. I have been a hobbyist for a few years now. I was recently asked to participate in a photography exhibit (my very first!) with six other photographers and seven of my shots are now on exhibit at a library for the month of March. Last night was our opening, which was a pretty awesome experience -- afterwards, one of my photographer friends kidded me that I can now call myself a pro. Is that all it takes to go pro (having your art exhibited) or are you considered a pro only if you are in business to sell your work? Just curious -- thanks for any clarification!

[Karl Johnston]

Subjective definition, just depends on how you define it. No real right or wrong answer :)

Professional is someone who claims 51% of their income from photo, doesn't mean they're any good or not just in business of selling their professional services. I think that's crap though, I judge it by quality of work.

[SwitchBlade]

IIRC a profesional sports player is someone who gets paid for playing sport. Therefore a professional photographer is someone who gets paid for taking photographs. Obviously Canon think it's down to the gear you own with 2 pro bodies and 3 L lenses to join CPS.

[skygod44]

Hey Carla, congrats on the exhibition :D

As to definitions, I'm kinda with Karl:
Really, who gives a crap?!?!
"Pro" is such a subjective term, which has been beaten to death in here plenty of times.
I don't derive 51% of my income from photography, but my clients call me a "pro". Personally, I couldn't care less, as long as they're happy, I'm happy, and still loving what I do.

Later, hun!

[Karl Johnston]

Congrats on the exhibit :) too

[luvsadog2]

Subjective definition, just depends on how you define it. No real right or wrong answer :)

Professional is someone who claims 51% of their income from photo, doesn't mean they're any good or not just in business of selling their professional services. I think that's crap though, I judge it by quality of work.

IIRC a profesional sports player is someone who gets paid for playing sport. Therefore a professional photographer is someone who gets paid for taking photographs. Obviously Canon think it's down to the gear you own with 2 pro bodies and 3 L lenses to join CPS.

Hey Carla, congrats on the exhibition :D

As to definitions, I'm kinda with Karl:
Really, who gives a crap?!?!
"Pro" is such a subjective term, which has been beaten to death in here plenty of times.
I don't derive 51% of my income from photography, but my clients call me a "pro". Personally, I couldn't care less, as long as they're happy, I'm happy, and still loving what I do.

Later, hun!

Congrats on the exhibit :) too

I agree with all of you -- your explanations make sense. I do photography because I enjoy it and don't really have any aspirations of going into business, so the fact that I love it is all that matters. Simon, Karl .. thanks so much!

Here's my post that shows the photos I have on exhibit .. I hope you all enjoy!

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?p=9741512#post9741512

[Karl Johnston]

People call me a pro, but...I don't consider myself a pro photographer, though, I do consider myself a full time artist. Confusin' innit?

A lot of photographers don't call themselves artists. I guess it's just whatever floats your boat.

[jetcode]

Why get lost in the identity of it? I like your work. It's good. Show as much as you want. Sell as much as you want. Have fun with it.

[luvsadog2]

People call me a pro, but...I don't consider myself a pro photographer, though, I do consider myself a full time artist. Confusin' innit?

A lot of photographers don't call themselves artists. I guess it's just whatever floats your boat.

I can relate to what you say .. as my photography skills improve, I am getting more comfortable with considering myself a photographer as well as an artist. I don't need to be a "pro" to enjoy my craft :o)

[myoungok]

Van Gough didn't make a living on his paintings, so would you categorize him as a hobbyist? ;)

[luvsadog2]

Van Gough didn't make a living on his paintings, so would you categorize him as a hobbyist? ;)

Good point .. the funny part is .. I've noticed that if you're out taking photos with a DSLR with a decently big lens, very often people just assume you're a "pro" because of your gear :p

[luvsadog2]

Why get lost in the identity of it? I like your work. It's good. Show as much as you want. Sell as much as you want. Have fun with it.

Thanks, jetcode .. I am having fun and will continue to have fun whether or not I show or sell .. it's all good!

[HappySnapper90]

I consider "pro" means you do whatever job as your profession and hence are a professional "blank". (fill in the blank). Just showing your work does not make one a professional photographer. And others have rules that if you make 51% or more of your income from photography, then you are considered in the "professional" category.

[RDKirk]

I consider "pro" means you do whatever job as your profession and hence are a professional "blank". (fill in the blank). Just showing your work does not make one a professional photographer. And others have rules that if you make 51% or more of your income from photography, then you are considered in the "professional" category.

Of course, most governments that tax income aren't concerned about the percentage, just the money. Generally, if you're doing business taking pictures to make a profit, the entities that really count--i.e. the ones who can make your life truly miserable--will consider you "professional" and then judge whether you're a "good professional" or a "bad professional."

The industry itself will tend not to have categories of "good professional" or "bad professional," but will attempt to define "professional" in a way to exclude completely the "bad professional" category. They will say, "Unless he meets these standards, he's not a professional at all." However, it's seldom that anyone outside the industry cares, unless the government (which is the entity that matters) colludes with the industry to require a licensing standard maintained by that industry. In that case, it's still really the government's opinion that matters.

This "professional" debate can get even sillier in some areas other than photography. In the military, a brand new 2nd lieutenant right out of the academy is considered a "professional soldier" while a 30-year command master sergeant who has been through numerous wars and campaigns is not considered a "professional soldier." That is truly bizarre thinking.

[harroz]

Van Gogh was like Karl, an artist! ;)


Van Gough didn't make a living on his paintings, so would you categorize him as a hobbyist? ;)

[mdaniel]

You have to get real money for your images to call yourself a pro. I'm not suggesting a certain portion/ratio of your overall income, but unless your making at least $15-20K a year from selling images I can't see how you could call yourself a professional. Just my.02

[RDKirk]

I consider "pro" means you do whatever job as your profession and hence are a professional "blank". (fill in the blank). Just showing your work does not make one a professional photographer. And others have rules that if you make 51% or more of your income from photography, then you are considered in the "professional" category.

Regarding percent of income, think about the movie industry. A whole lot of union-card-carrying members of that industry are not making the majority of their income as actors or whatever it says on their union cards...but their industry considers them bona fide professionals.

A good number of doctors and lawyers are making more money through investments than through their practices...but they are also considered professionals.

[Richard Brewer]

I laid a new patio behind our house. My wife said it was very professional....but I didn't get paid ! Does that make me a "pro"? LOL

[RDKirk]

You have to get real money for your images to call yourself a pro. I'm not suggesting a certain portion/ratio of your overall income, but unless your making at least $15-20K a year from selling images I can't see how you could call yourself a professional. Just my.02

The government sure would, though.

[JeffreyG]

Subjective definition, just depends on how you define it. No real right or wrong answer :)

Professional is someone who claims 51% of their income from photo, doesn't mean they're any good or not just in business of selling their professional services. I think that's crap though, I judge it by quality of work.

I use 'professional' to mean a photographer who earns their living from their work generally.

I'll allow it for anyone selling pictures I suppose - I freelance some and when doing so I guess I'm being a 'professional'.

To me an important distinction is that 'professional' is not the same thing as 'good' in all cases. Some professionals are awesome photographers. Some set up a couple lights and churn out garbage.

There are 'hobbiest' photographers who sell nothing (or very little) but who are great at what they do. We should be careful not to use the term 'professional' as the same thing as 'good'.

[luvsadog2]

I use 'professional' to mean a photographer who earns their living from their work generally.

I'll allow it for anyone selling pictures I suppose - I freelance some and when doing so I guess I'm being a 'professional'.

To me an important distinction is that 'professional' is not the same thing as 'good' in all cases. Some professionals are awesome photographers. Some set up a couple lights and churn out garbage.

There are 'hobbiest' photographers who sell nothing (or very little) but who are great at what they do. We should be careful not to use the term 'professional' as the same thing as 'good'.

Well, I'd much rather be thought of as a "good" photographer than a "professional" since my goal is to enjoy my hobby and I have no need to make a living with it.

Thanks for your input, everyone!

[jetcode]

In better times you might be very prosperous with your hobby. Art doesn't sell well in a down economy but when the moneys flowing I have seen people do very well at shows. You have some great images. A booth is $200. Always worth a try. I know one guy who does fairs and pays for his gear and expenses. He has a lot of very nice gear!

Well, I'd much rather be thought of as a "good" photographer than a "professional" since my goal is to enjoy my hobby and I have no need to make a living with it.

Thanks for your input, everyone!

[skygod44]

Hey Carla, just looked at your exhibition entries and have to say I love #3!
Staring at it, and seeing more and more detail (such as the blur of the birds in flight) is really inspirational!
Well done, you!!!
:D

[luvsadog2]

In better times you might be very prosperous with your hobby. Art doesn't sell well in a down economy but when the moneys flowing I have seen people do very well at shows. You have some great images. A booth is $200. Always worth a try. I know one guy who does fairs and pays for his gear and expenses. He has a lot of very nice gear!

Thanks jetcode .. this exhibit was at a library so we only paid a few bucks towards having libations for opening night. It's something to think about in the future -- obviously, if someone wants to buy something, I'm not going to turn it down :D

Hey Carla, just looked at your exhibition entries and have to say I love #3!
Staring at it, and seeing more and more detail (such as the blur of the birds in flight) is really inspirational!
Well done, you!!!
:D

Simon, I'm so glad you liked that shot too! Seeing it in color, I almost passed over it, but decided to see what a conversion would look like and it worked. It was really hard to decide which shots to use for the exhibit since each photographer only had so much usable hanging space -- but I was happy with my choices. One guy who saw the exhibit emailed me afterwards, told me I have a "superb" eye and asked to be on my notification list for future showings .. so I have an official fan, lol. It was a good experience overall!

[skygod44]

.....Simon, I'm so glad you liked that shot too! Seeing it in color, I almost passed over it, but decided to see what a conversion would look like and it worked. It was really hard to decide which shots to use for the exhibit since each photographer only had so much usable hanging space -- but I was happy with my choices. One guy who saw the exhibit emailed me afterwards, told me I have a "superb" eye and asked to be on my notification list for future showings .. so I have an official fan, lol. It was a good experience overall!
Know what you mean...
Some of my clients' "favourite" shots have been ones I was about to bin.
So I learned a while back to be very cautious with what I regard as an excellent picture, and what, after some tweaking perhaps, might be what the client dreamed of!
Well done, again!
:D

[luvsadog2]

Know what you mean...
Some of my clients' "favourite" shots have been ones I was about to bin.
So I learned a while back to be very cautious with what I regard as an excellent picture, and what, after some tweaking perhaps, might be what the client dreamed of!
Well done, again!
:D

Thanks again, Simon! Now that I'm getting more familiar with using Lightroom, I'll have to spend some time (ha, like years) going thru my older shots to see what I might have missed initially. It's rather fun to find a shot you thought wasn't very good and realize that it has more potential with a little TLC! Take care ... Carla

[themadman]

A professional is a person who makes their living from a job. That's my view of it, it has no bearing on their level of skill. I have seen plenty Professional photographers that are much worse than hobbyists and amateurs. However, telling your clients you are a professional makes them feel better even if your living does not depend on your photography =)

[skygod44]

Thanks again, Simon! Now that I'm getting more familiar with using Lightroom, I'll have to spend some time (ha, like years) going thru my older shots to see what I might have missed initially. It's rather fun to find a shot you thought wasn't very good and realize that it has more potential with a little TLC! Take care ... Carla
Are you still using the pre-2.x version of LR?
I am, as I'm holding off upgrading until I have got my grubby little hands on a 7D with the 2.xx firmware inside!!!
But I tried out LR2.6 about 3 weeks ago and couldn't see anything outstanding that I can't do in the GIMP....
;)

But come the 7D, I think I'll have to jump up to "LR2.whatever" :rolleyes:
[Bloody companies making too much bleedin' money out of us all the time!!!]

[sfaust]

It's funny to me that this pops up so often. Its must be an ego thing. To me, it doesn't matter what I'm called, as long as the checks keep coming and I can pay the mortgage.

[gkarris]

(raises hand...)

I'm a Professional Hobbyist... :D

[luvsadog2]

It's funny to me that this pops up so often. Its must be an ego thing. To me, it doesn't matter what I'm called, as long as the checks keep coming and I can pay the mortgage.

sfaust, as I expressed in my opening post and followup posts, I was only asking for clarification since I'm new to exhibiting my work and I don't have any aspirations to be considered a "pro."

(raises hand...)
I'm a Professional Hobbyist... :D

gkarris, that has a nice ring to it, lol... but I'm happy to be a just a hobbyist, hopefully a decent one!

[sfaust]

sfaust, as I expressed in my opening post and followup posts, I was only asking for clarification since I'm new to exhibiting my work and I don't have any aspirations to be considered a "pro."

My comment wasn't meant in a derogatory manner at all, nor directed at you personally. The question just seems to pop up over and over for some reason, but in the end it doesn't really matter. The quality of the persons work is far more important, hobbyist or pro, IMO.

[luvsadog2]

My comment wasn't meant in a derogatory manner at all, nor directed at you personally. The question just seems to pop up over and over for some reason, but in the end it doesn't really matter. The quality of the persons work is far more important, hobbyist or pro, IMO.

Thanks for the clarification -- I understand and agree totally. :)