Play safe or take a chance?

[blue_max]

Hi All, I posted a thread about using the 580ex and a Canon 10d to produce some shots of people. Scott was enormously helpful and I can't fault his advice.

The result!

Using the 'P' mode, produced shots that were well exposed, but fairly bland. That setting gets good solid well exposed shots. If you want a particular look though, you have to stray from the relative safety of the 'p' mode. I did start that way and quickly it became obvious that that was not going to get the look I desired.

By switching to a relatively fast lens (50mm 1.4) I was able to set a reasonably safe aperture of f2.8 and adjust the exposure compensation and flash exposure compensation on the flash to achieve a result I was happy with. I bounced the flash off a relatively shallow ceiling.

By this means I was able to have the subject well light, with the background (a window) very diffused. It worked a treat, although much processing was necessary by shooting in raw.

Here is the result (subject masked as the client has not even seen them yet).

Conclusion,
Take all the advise you can and listen to every word. Then have the courage to go your own way as a result. The advice is how to use a tool. How you use it is up to you.

Thanks all for the confidence to go for it.

Graham

[scottbergerphoto]

Nice work. Once you have a baseline, you can play a liitle with the variables.
Remember point 6 from Friday's thread:
Use what I suggested, Camera on P, Flash in ETTL. Take a test shot at your location. Use FEC +/- to adjust the flash exposure and EC +/- to adjust the background exposure.
Using Av,Tv, and M, are fine as long as you understand what the variables you are adjusting do to the exposure.
The shot you posted could have been very underexposed in ambiemnt lighting (background)if you believed the camera meter. The light from the window would have fooled the camera into giving you a dark background with a well exposed subject from the flash.

[Incomplete Pete]

Good start, but as Scott says, the guy is underexposed because of the window. In the future you should practice using manual mode on both the flash and the camera. With time you'll learn what you need for different situations.

[blue_max]

Thank you both for your comments. The thing I found with the 'p' setting, is that it gave me a shutter speed of 1/60 regardless (as it is supposed to), but what does it give up to get that speed? I was shooting on less speed, with larger aperture. The p mode gave me a much more even scene, whereas I wanted to separate out the subject from the background and produce a more contrasty scene. I did follow you about ec and fec Scott, and used it in aperture priority mode, but it didn't seem the p mode would allow me to give the same separation of fore and background. Maybe I just was under too much pressure at the time! The don't think the subject is underexposed really Pete - I am confident of that (it does look a little like that because you can't see the rest of him). I wanted the subject quite strong with a 'dreamy' background which is light and fresh.

I do wonder how that 1/60 shutter speed is maintained though (it's not iso, or aperture, so it must be increased flash power mustn't it?).

Graham

[SkipD]

Manual mode with a flash unit that can also be controlled manually (NOT the 420EX) is the only way to go in my opinion. You will definitely need a meter that can handle both ambient and flash measurements.

What you would do is to trigger the flash and see what f-stop you'd need for the illumination of the subject. Then change the shutter speed to match that f-stop for the outdoor lighting. It's fairly simple once you get the hang of it.

[scottbergerphoto]

In P mode the minimum shutter speed the camera allows you is 1/60 sec. It can go as high as the lighting requires and the shutter max. Usually in situations where flash is used, the lighting is dim, so the camera drops to 1/60. Just point the camera at a bright light and watch the shutter speed.

[blue_max]

Manual mode with a flash unit that can also be controlled manually (NOT the 420EX) is the only way to go in my opinion. You will definitely need a meter that can handle both ambient and flash measurements.

What you would do is to trigger the flash and see what f-stop you'd need for the illumination of the subject. Then change the shutter speed to match that f-stop for the outdoor lighting. It's fairly simple once you get the hang of it.

All that money for a top of the line flash unit with more technology than you can shake a stick at (or understand!) and you need to buy a meter and set it manually! You may well be right of course and thank you for that approach. That is three from three different people - does everyone shoot flash in a different way?

When I get a chance, I really want to explore the 'p' setting more. I would like to find out if I can find some sort of consistency and repeatablility. I guess going to aperture priority was just my comfort zone as that's where I normally shoot. That is nearly like manual in so far as I exposed for the window and used the flash to expose the subject correctly. It was more trial and error, but once I had the formula, it worked ok. That still allows the flash to use ETTL, so I don't know if that helps me or hinders me.

Thanks all and I am finding this really interesting. It has certainly opened my eyes to what flash is capable of. It's great to hear all the opinions.

Graham

[SkipD]

There is a minor problem with all the automation that's built into todays equipment, Graham. The manufacturers take care of 90% of our situations, but the camera still can't connect to our brains and understand exactly what WE want it to do. Thus, I resort to manual mode frequently to deal with the situations that are tough to tell the camera how to do.

Why, for example, mess around with trying to tell the camera about offsets, balance, etc., when I can do it faster and more accurately using manual mode? It's just my way of controlling my world.

[blue_max]

In P mode the minimum shutter speed the camera allows you is 1/60 sec. It can go as high as the lighting requires and the shutter max. Usually in situations where flash is used, the lighting is dim, so the camera drops to 1/60. Just point the camera at a bright light and watch the shutter speed.

Thanks Scott.

I just did a dead quick test shooting a sauce bottle on a table against an open window. In P mode, I had to underexpose about a half stop for the outside and pump up the flash just a little to get the sauce right. The camera selected 1/60 but f4.5. Using the aperture priority, I was able to select f2.5 and a speed of 1/200.

The difference was, I had much more of the background in focus using the 'P' mode and that was rather more distracting that I wanted. P mode doesn't let you override that aperture. I have a 10d, so maybe the ETTLII adds a bit more control?

Hope you don't think I'm having an arguement with you Scott - I accept all you have said and If I can figure out how to get a wider aperture, I think that may do the trick.

Skip - knowing how to have control over the camera is the very best way to shoot. As I have had the flash unit for just a few short days and had to shoot some people for the first time, I needed to find a quick and easy, foolproof way of working. Metering is not always possible and having a back-up plan is usually better than winging it!

Thank you.

Graham

[Titus213]

I'm struggling with the same issues and just haven't taken time to figure out the flash and camera in the field yet (having too much fun shooting pictures). I'm trying to get thru Mastering Flash Photography and expect that will help a lot. I too have found Scott's advice dead on and just need to make sure I can follow it without checking my crib notes....

[blue_max]

I'm struggling with the same issues and just haven't taken time to figure out the flash and camera in the field yet (having too much fun shooting pictures). I'm trying to get thru Mastering Flash Photography and expect that will help a lot. I too have found Scott's advice dead on and just need to make sure I can follow it without checking my crib notes....

Scott is without doubt 'Mr Flash' of POTN - flash is a rather slow moving part of the forum, but with Scott's help it really takes off.

I have never really bothered, but reading about it has made me invest in a flash and invest my time to learn how to use it. I used to have a Hasselblad and Bowens 2 x 500w studio flash set up, but only knew how to get it to light an object. This has been a fasttrack masterclass and I have learnt loads - enough to question the master! But only because I know the questions to ask.

Big ups to Scott once again.

Graham

[CyberPet]

Scott's great... I'll learn eventually thanks to him!! :D

[scottbergerphoto]

Thanks Scott.

I just did a dead quick test shooting a sauce bottle on a table against an open window. In P mode, I had to underexpose about a half stop for the outside and pump up the flash just a little to get the sauce right. The camera selected 1/60 but f4.5. Using the aperture priority, I was able to select f2.5 and a speed of 1/200.

The difference was, I had much more of the background in focus using the 'P' mode and that was rather more distracting that I wanted. P mode doesn't let you override that aperture. I have a 10d, so maybe the ETTLII adds a bit more control?

Hope you don't think I'm having an arguement with you Scott - I accept all you have said and If I can figure out how to get a wider aperture, I think that may do the trick.

Skip - knowing how to have control over the camera is the very best way to shoot. As I have had the flash unit for just a few short days and had to shoot some people for the first time, I needed to find a quick and easy, foolproof way of working. Metering is not always possible and having a back-up plan is usually better than winging it!

Thank you.

Graham
You could have done the same thing in P mode. If you turn the main command dial after you 1/2 depress the shutter button, you can scroll though all the equivalent shutter and aperture combinations. I forget the fancy name for it, something shift.

[blue_max]

You could have done the same thing in P mode. If you turn the main command dial after you 1/2 depress the shutter button, you can scroll though all the equivalent shutter and aperture combinations. I forget the fancy name for it, something shift.

Thanks Scott. I haven't had chance to check this out. As I am using the focus on the * button, it would probably get a little complicated for a lot of shots, but may be great for working out exposure initially. At least I could have a well exposed shot to base my adjustments on.

Good stuff.

Graham

[Bob_A]

You could have done the same thing in P mode. If you turn the main command dial after you 1/2 depress the shutter button, you can scroll though all the equivalent shutter and aperture combinations. I forget the fancy name for it, something shift.

Is it "shifting the program" ?

[scottbergerphoto]

Yes, I believe it is called Program Shift.