client looking for ALL photos from a shoot.

[Christopher Steven b]

Hello, I'm a Wedding/Event photographer fairly new in the business and recently did my first E-session. Because it was my first I gave the couple a very good price--$100 for more than 3 hours of shooting. Just on Friday I returned the photos to them giving them 60 unique images with additional versions of some of them including different kinds of processing. The groom had a look at the photos, gave me $120 for my efforts; and that, I thought, was the end of the transaction.

Yesterday they sent a message asking about the raw photos--that they would like all of them. What they are asking for, it seems, is unprocessed versions of ALL the photos I took--in other words the 'missing numbers'.

Our agreement beforehand was that I would return something between 20 and 50 processed images to them for the fee. I returned 60, so I was surprised that they were looking for more than they received.

My policy, for obvious reasons, is not to return photos that do not meet my criteria for a satisfactory photo. If it isn't something I would agree to put my name on, I just do not return it. If there are photos taken of the sky to determine metering, I do not, obviously, return these. Nor do I return virtually duplicate photos nor those that are OOF or are errant for other reasons.

My question is: how do I deal with these clients to find a compromise between my policy and my interest in not just putting up a business-facade and alienating any future possibilities of working for them (they did mention the possibility of doing more work for them).

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[dwarfcow]

state your reasoning, we do it for clients all the time.


There is a reason we don't give out digital files for customer reproduction. Our main reason for not letting them have them is not to force them to buy our prints (we give them access to the files to proof and decide what they like, and to share with family and friends online) we do it to ENSURE they get a quality product.

We want to control the printer so we know it will look good, and last, and not poorly represent ourselves. you need to do the same with what images you allow them to see / have even if you give them the files.

e.g. "I have gone through my images from the session, and what i presented to you are what i feel constitute what best represents the shoot; I delete the files that don't meet my standards (you can add on camera during the shoot if they seem to not buy it) "

its to protect your image as well as put your best foot forward.

edit: next time rename/number the files to be continuous. its one of the things we do specifically to avoid the "where is the file XXXXX.jpg?" question.

[Christopher Steven b]

Good points--I do need to communicate this to them. I have renamed files before so they were continuous, but I think even if I did so here, these folks would request the files on the basis that they remember my taking certain photos that they did not receive (read: photos that did not make the cut).

Still, this seems like i'm sort of putting up a businessman-like facade which seems strange after fist-bumping the groom following the disc handoff. And anyway, wouldn't the good businessman find some kind of compromise ?

[thebishopp]

A compromise would be to charge them a fee for the extra images. You could also charge them a fee for the raw files (or unprocessed jpegs or tiffs if they don't know how to edit raw files). Make the fee worth it though.

You could say: I charge X amount for unprocessed images. I can supply them in TIFF or JPEG format but I do not release raw files as they are my digital negatives. With X amount fee you will receive the unedited JPEG or TIFF (your choice) as well as editing and display rights to the photos. This editing and usage license is conditional on the caveat that any photo manipulation done by you is not credited to me or my studio. Copyright is still retained by so and so images (your name).

[jra]

If they are requesting images that didn't stand up to your quality criteria (the missing images), then I would simply explain to them that any images that did not pass your quality criteria while editing have been deleted and therefore are unavailable. Then.....make sure you delete them. There's no point in having a bunch of useless images hogging up drive space on your machine and it puts a nice and immediate stop to any request for "the missing images". :)

[Butch Cassidy]

you only got $120.00 for all that you did. Be polite and business like, but firm. I will give you all of what I have, But at a cost of $300.00, you gave them more than you said. It is just business (nothing more) "Do not apologize "when you tell them it will cost them $300.00. Business is Business, treat it as Business.

[Dennis_Hammer]

Simple, Sorry I deleted all duplicates poses and photos I deemed unnecessary. Good Luck.

[Tarzanman]

Hmm. I would sell them to the couple. The photos aren't making you any money just sitting in electronic storage and I think that word of mouth (if the couple liked your photos) will trump a couple of bad exposures from your first job being out in the wild.

If you're still concerned, explain your worries to your customer, but sell them the images unless you don't think they are willing to pay what the going rate for a RAW is.

I wouldn't be worried about 'future work' until the work materializes. People LOVE dangling those carrots.

[cdifoto]

Hello, I'm a Wedding/Event photographer fairly new in the business and recently did my first E-session. Because it was my first I gave the couple a very good price--$100 for more than 3 hours of shooting. Just on Friday I returned the photos to them giving them 60 unique images with additional versions of some of them including different kinds of processing. The groom had a look at the photos, gave me $120 for my efforts; and that, I thought, was the end of the transaction.

Yesterday they sent a message asking about the raw photos--that they would like all of them. What they are asking for, it seems, is unprocessed versions of ALL the photos I took--in other words the 'missing numbers'.

Our agreement beforehand was that I would return something between 20 and 50 processed images to them for the fee. I returned 60, so I was surprised that they were looking for more than they received.

My policy, for obvious reasons, is not to return photos that do not meet my criteria for a satisfactory photo. If it isn't something I would agree to put my name on, I just do not return it. If there are photos taken of the sky to determine metering, I do not, obviously, return these. Nor do I return virtually duplicate photos nor those that are OOF or are errant for other reasons.

My question is: how do I deal with these clients to find a compromise between my policy and my interest in not just putting up a business-facade and alienating any future possibilities of working for them (they did mention the possibility of doing more work for them).

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Delete the images that didn't make the grade. Tell them they did get all the photos. Also tell them that you're a photographer, not a button pusher. And being a photographer means you never give away your untouched images.

Next time, renumber your images after deleting the duds so they're in a continuous sequence.

[RDKirk]

My question is: how do I deal with these clients to find a compromise between my policy and my interest in not just putting up a business-facade and alienating any future possibilities of working for them (they did mention the possibility of doing more work for them).

You apparently told them up front how many images they would receive, and you've told them that you delete unsuitable images. Repeat that to them.

I personally do not and would not renumber the images--that's extra work and has the great possibility of creating error in fulfilling the order properly. There are times that I discover I'd like to go all the way back to the raw to complete an image, and if I've renumbered them, it just makes that harder.

This is, however, what I do: I use Downloader Pro to rename images according to the {jobname}_{yyyy-mm-dd}_{hh:mm:ss} as they download from the card to the computer. That puts them in sequence, yet it's not a contiguous sequence. I can easily match frames from raw to tiff to jpeg, but it's not easily seen that there may have been images between Jones_2010-01-12_13:22:39 and Jones_2010-01-12_13:30:43.

[cdifoto]

You apparently told them up front how many images they would receive, and you've told them that you delete unsuitable images. Repeat that to them.

I personally do not and would not renumber the images--that's extra work and has the great possibility of creating error in fulfilling the order properly. There are times that I discover I'd like to go all the way back to the raw to complete an image, and if I've renumbered them, it just makes that harder.

This is, however, what I do: I use Downloader Pro to rename images according to the {jobname}_{yyyy-mm-dd}_{hh:mm:ss} as they download from the card to the computer. That puts them in sequence, yet it's not a contiguous sequence. I can easily match frames from raw to tiff to jpeg, but it's not easily seen that there may have been images between Jones_2010-01-12_13:22:39 and Jones_2010-01-12_13:30:43.

If someone suggested renumbering THIS batch, then I agree. The damage is already done. However, it's smart to renumber the shots after the duds are culled so that this does not happen in future sessions. My files are numbered YYYY-MM-DD-XXXX.jpg with no gaps. No gaps = no questions about missing files.

[freaking102]

Give the customer what they want. You were hired to take photos, and they are capable of deciding which pictures they want -- they don't need you to tell them what they like.

You should PP the ones you feel are best, and then give them best, plus the rest.

Your deleting of "rejects" is selfish. It is their event, not yours.

[cdifoto]

Give the customer what they want. You were hired to take photos, and they are capable of deciding which pictures they want -- they don't need you to tell them what they like.

You should PP the ones you feel are best, and then give them best, plus the rest.

Your deleting of "rejects" is selfish. It is their event, not yours.

:rolleyes:

[Zansho]

Give the customer what they want. You were hired to take photos, and they are capable of deciding which pictures they want -- they don't need you to tell them what they like.

You should PP the ones you feel are best, and then give them best, plus the rest.

Your deleting of "rejects" is selfish. It is their event, not yours.

No, no, and more no. :rolleyes:

You don't want an inferior product being shown to other prospective clients. If for some reason, they show a bad photo (they were blinking, maybe a hair was flying out of place, flash over-exposed, whatever) to someone else, they're going to think that's indicative of the kind of work you do.

If that's how you want to run your business, all the more power to you.

[RDKirk]

Give the customer what they want. You were hired to take photos, and they are capable of deciding which pictures they want -- they don't need you to tell them what they like.

You should PP the ones you feel are best, and then give them best, plus the rest.

Your deleting of "rejects" is selfish. It is their event, not yours.

Actually, they do need someone to tell them what they want. As the OP already said, he's not just a camera operator. We're being hired for our artistic eye, not just to press shutter buttons.

Once, when I was sixteen, I insisted that my barber cut my hair as I directed, despite him telling me that the style would look stupid on me. He was right, I was wrong, and the next day I paid him extra to fix it.

[RDKirk]

If someone suggested renumbering THIS batch, then I agree. The damage is already done. However, it's smart to renumber the shots after the duds are culled so that this does not happen in future sessions. My files are numbered YYYY-MM-DD-XXXX.jpg with no gaps. No gaps = no questions about missing files.

I number my by the date/time so that there are always gaps--clearly no contiguity--but I don't have to go through a separate renumbering that would create a conflict between image generations. The jpegs I show to clients still maintain the names of the raw images.

[cdifoto]

I number my by the date/time so that there are always gaps--clearly no contiguity--but I don't have to go through a separate renumbering that would create a conflict between image generations. The jpegs I show to clients still maintain the names of the raw images.

Yeah my RAW and JPEGs share the same file names, but I don't include the time. Why do you do that?

[jhcanon]

It's your work and to even consider letting a client take control of the product and determine how it is ultimately presented to others is crass stupidity (IMHO)

I can't think of any other profession where snyone would hand over what they considered a sub-standard piece of work so why should photography be any different.

This was a business transaction and you delivered beyond what you promised. If they did not like the images then that is another matter (albeit subjective) and can only be controlled within the constraints of the environment and the quality of the subject (taking your expertise as a given).

If you have deemed images not up to the standard you wish to present as your work that is your choice and you cannot be forced to hand them over.

Be polite but firm and tell the client exactly that and if they are not prepared to accept that then it is their problem. As someone else said, the promise of future work is a complete red herring and should be ignored.

Seem to be too many opinions on this thread from peple who do not earn their living from photography!

[PhotosGuy]

My policy, for obvious reasons, is not to return photos that do not meet my criteria for a satisfactory photo. That works for me. As you said, you more than fulfilled the contract requirements.

Give the customer what they want. You were hired to take photos, and they are capable of deciding which pictures they want -- they don't need you to tell them what they like. Sorry, but no way in hell would I do that. Neither would I give image files to a non-pro who will make green, underexposed, crappy prints at the corner drugstore. Not only will you lose the sales of those prints, but those will be your green crappy prints that will be shown to their friends & your potential future clients? ;)

If/when I rarely give printable files to someone, I make sure that they are told where to take them for printing & told where not to take them, too. I give them a release for printing that states where permission to print is valid, which doesn't include places like Walgreens.

[CanonGolfer]

Give the customer what they want. You were hired to take photos, and they are capable of deciding which pictures they want -- they don't need you to tell them what they like.

You should PP the ones you feel are best, and then give them best, plus the rest.

Your deleting of "rejects" is selfish. It is their event, not yours.

Wow....just wow....
I never thought I would see someone on here saying that 'deleting of rejects is selfish'. I always let the client know "I will be deleting a good portion of these photos because they do not meet my standards"
I had an engagement couple once who asked to see all of the unprocessed photos that I didn't use. She kept bugging me and bugging me (even after I told her I deleted them, she kept insisting that I let her see them) and I finally told her, I will give you the unprocessed ones, but you will not like the price tag that comes along with it ($10k for about 150 photos, and not that I think those photos were worth that I just got tired of her bitching about it). She kindly stopped asking for them after that.

[LBaldwin]

First I NEVER allow the customer to drive my business. I deliver ONLY he images I want them to have, that meet or exceed my quality criteria. I never give RAW or unprocessed files. I keep total control over every aspect of the process from planning thru delivery.

This is put in every contract I use, and I stick by my words. I never quote a certain number of images, but I do make sure that I get all the shots on the client's shot list.

To the OP: the reason you are having this issue is primarily because of two reasons. One, you charge a cheap rate for the work you did, that hurts you and other photographers in your area. Two you need to use a written contract for every shoot. Don't get sucked into quoting numbers of prints, or even worse giving up a CD or DvD with images they can print ad infanatum. Control your prices tp make a profit, control your product to provide the best image quality that you can. To my way of thinking you left at least $400 on the table in sales. I don't care who you are $400 is crap load of cash to give away.

[Mike30D]

Give the customer what they want. You were hired to take photos, and they are capable of deciding which pictures they want -- they don't need you to tell them what they like.

You should PP the ones you feel are best, and then give them best, plus the rest.

Your deleting of "rejects" is selfish. It is their event, not yours.

Um.....NO. It is not "selfish". I do not give up all of the images because it is bad business. If you make a mistake....and you WILL make mistakes, their confidence in you drops a few points. Less confidence from a client leads to not-so-good referrals which leads to no clients at all.

It clearly states in my contract that they only get what I decide to give them.

CREATIVE LICENSE

Images are edited at Captured Visions Photography's discretion and delivered albums, digital proofs, proof books, DVD's, and/or prints may not include all images shot. Captured Visions Photography reserves the right to edit and release only those deemed creditable as professional in quality and within Captured Visions Photography's artistic standards.

This exact thing was just covered here: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=847154

If I shoot 1100 images during a wedding, Why in the world would I give the client that many images to sort through?? Even if I shoot an engagement session and there's 150 images, why would I give them that many images to sort through just for an engagement session.

NEVER give out your RAW images, if you're gonna let anything go it should be high-res images on disc for a price....and don't be afraid to go high on it either.

[Phil V]

Give the customer what they want. You were hired to take photos, and they are capable of deciding which pictures they want -- they don't need you to tell them what they like.

You should PP the ones you feel are best, and then give them best, plus the rest.

Your deleting of "rejects" is selfish. It is their event, not yours.
That's just a troll right?

No photographer could possibly believe that.;)

[RDKirk]

First I NEVER allow the customer to drive my business. I deliver ONLY he images I want them to have, that meet or exceed my quality criteria. I never give RAW or unprocessed files. I keep total control over every aspect of the process from planning thru delivery.

This gets to my constant rant about product philosophy: Know what you sell.

Too many photographers, especially wedding photographers, just go out shooting stuff and don't consider until afterward what they intend to sell. Then they get a demand: Sell me this! and they can only sit with a "deer in the headlights" look because they have never hammered out for themselves what they do, what they don't do, and why.

That is the difference between being a "picter taker" and an artist. An artist knows what his final work will be. If he does only watercolors, he knows he does only watercolors. "Paint me an oil portrait." "Sorry, I only do watercolor."

Even portrait painters these days shoot preliminary photographs. What if a client said, "Give me a disk of the photographs you took instead of a painting"? The painter would say, "No, I do paintings. Yes, I have the photographs, but I only sell paintings." And that would be that.

Establish your own product philosophy. Know what you sell, know what you don't sell, know why, and know it before you take a job.

[Tarzanman]

Whatever, dude.
90% of the people buying photos don't give a rat's behind about composition or white balancing or any of that frilly stuff unless its REALLY bad. If the photos are in focus and they can tell Aunt Jemima from Uncle Albert then I would sell the images.

Unless you have knowledgeable and discerning clients... I doubt they hired you for your artistic opinion. They wanted someone to take good, clear photos of an even with good camera gear (and the know-how to use it) so that they'd have a good record of the event.

You have already said that the rejects are worthless to you... but they clearly aren't worthless to the customer.

If someone wants to buy a rat turd from me, I will make sure that they completely understand and comprehend that I am selling them a rat turd. If they still want to buy it anyway then I will happily oblige them.

I remember reading posts on this board about business acumen leading to better success at photography than skill with a camera.

I think this situation applies.

[Christopher Steven b]

You guys have been incredibly helpful in both confirming that my policy (that is indeed hammered out but which is open to compromise from circumstance to circumstance) and giving me suggestions about how to handle this and avoid it in the future. Even 'freaking102's suggestion, though I disagree with it (I agree with the rest of you that that isn't sound business practice) voices what really would be the client's perspective. The idea that the perspective I ought take should wholly be about what is best for me is--well, I can't operate like that.

As I said, I'm fairly new to doing photography in a public way (I've done events and weddings for just a year now) and though I'm fairly clear about what my policies are, I indeed haven't 'hammered out' how to adequately respond to clients in a way that respects my policies without leaving them feeling that I've shut them down. You guys have given me some options.

[Christopher Steven b]

@Tarzanman: if they don't care about the aesthetics of the photos that's more the reason why I couldn't hand them off to them. If they indeed like photos that are clearly to me substandard, and distribute them as my work--that's bad for my business. Their impression of my work would also be compromised. It seems to me that your suggestion is good for the short term (I possibly make a bit more cash) but not so good for the long term (they're probably not going to hire me again if I sell them turds + work that is not representative of my name is floating out there).

[Tarzanman]

I'm identify with the customer in this case. Its their event and they want the photos. I would have a hard time (as a customer) recommending a photographer whose pride got in the way of giving me pictures I paid them to take.

[thebishopp]

I'm identify with the customer in this case. Its their event and they want the photos. I would have a hard time (as a customer) recommending a photographer whose pride got in the way of giving me pictures I paid them to take.

They paid for "20 and 50 processed images" (according to the OP's stated contract) and they got " 60 unique images with additional versions of some of them including different kinds of processing".

So, it looks like they got more then what they paid for. Do you think they are entitled to more for free or are you saying the OP should sell them the extra photos (which I personally think she should do at a reasonable but profitable rate).

[czeglin]

I'm identify with the customer in this case. Its their event and they want the photos. I would have a hard time (as a customer) recommending a photographer whose pride got in the way of giving me pictures I paid them to take.
The couple paid for the photos they received. In fact, they got more than required. The couple isn't entitled to anything more, especially when it will reflect poorly on the photographer. It's ludicrous to expect someone to deliver all of the substandard photos that are taken in the course of a day. It would be a terrible idea to let the couple have them.

[Tarzanman]

Sell them, of course. But for cheap. The customer shouldn't mind getting a deal and if the tog is really worried about poor shots reflecting back on his skill then the extra cash from the sale can be spent on marketing/advertising.

[RDKirk]

Sell them, of course. But for cheap. The customer shouldn't mind getting a deal and if the tog is really worried about poor shots reflecting back on his skill then the extra cash from the sale can be spent on marketing/advertising.

The OP only got $120 for the wedding. If he or she sells the rest even cheaper cheaper than $120, how much marketing/advertising is that going to buy?

[cory1848]

Ok, I dont understand a couple of things. Why is it so hard to educate the client about what RAW files are? RAW files are an unprocessed file format. No sharpening, no contrast boost, no color bumps or any other enhancements done. Once I explain that to my clients, they understand that its not really the RAW files they want but rather just copies on a disk so they can get them printed. Its like getting your car painted and requesting to get it back with just the primer. There is no advantage of it at all.

With that said, I dont supply RAW files at all. Its not an option. They get jpgs. You can do anything to a jpg that you can do to a RAW file so it not some special format that will serve the client in anyway. Only advantage to photographers is that it gives a wider latitude for adjustments after the shoot.

Once you educate your clients, I think you will find that these issues will become non issues and everyone will be happy.

[freaking102]

That's just a troll right?

No photographer could possibly believe that.;)

it's just a wedding shoot. they don't care about the best pic of grandma, they want all pics of grandma. don't confuse wedding shoots with art. when it comes to weddings, xmas, birthdays, etc., the client just wants lots of pics -- you can sort them into good/bad and tell them your opinion, but they just want pics, and the more the better. they may cherish the blurry shot of uncle bob with goofy look on his face and one eye closed -- who are you to judge?

that's my 2 cents

[nuffi]

Something that is a little out of the box, doesn't fix your problem with this client but would've prevented the problem in the first place is a little workflow script I wrote.

It renames and renumbers all the pics in a directory with a right click on the directory. That way, they get pic-001 to pic-099 (or however many) and think they got all of them.

It is still very early in the dev phase but if you want it you can have it.

[Mike30D]

it's just a wedding shoot. they don't care about the best pic of grandma, they want all pics of grandma. don't confuse wedding shoots with art. when it comes to weddings, xmas, birthdays, etc., the client just wants lots of pics -- you can sort them into good/bad and tell them your opinion, but they just want pics, and the more the better. they may cherish the blurry shot of uncle bob with goofy look on his face and one eye closed -- who are you to judge?

that's my 2 cents

"JUST A WEDDING SHOOT"??? Please don't ever think that it's "just a wedding shoot". The more the better? So, what you're saying is I should overwhelm a client with 1000 images to sort through? I suppose you're gonna tell me that a wedding album should have the blurry pics in it too, right? I want my wedding clients to have the best shots from the day, not some goofy blurry pic of uncle bob getting drunk. They are not paying a photographer $2000 and up for blurry pics, they are paying because they know that that photographer is going to give them the best shots he/she can produce.

I'm identify with the customer in this case. Its their event and they want the photos. I would have a hard time (as a customer) recommending a photographer whose pride got in the way of giving me pictures I paid them to take.

It has NOTHING to do with pride. It does NOT make good business sense to give every photo to the customer.

This is also why you NEVER tell a client "Oh, you'll receive 'xxx amount' of images."

[freaking102]

"JUST A WEDDING SHOOT"??? Please don't ever think that it's "just a wedding shoot". The more the better? So, what you're saying is I should overwhelm a client with 1000 images to sort through? I suppose you're gonna tell me that a wedding album should have the blurry pics in it too, right? I want my wedding clients to have the best shots from the day, not some goofy blurry pic of uncle bob getting drunk. They are not paying a photographer $2000 and up for blurry pics, they are paying because they know that that photographer is going to give them the best shots he/she can produce.



It has NOTHING to do with pride. It does NOT make good business sense to give every photo to the customer.

This is also why you NEVER tell a client "Oh, you'll receive 'xxx amount' of images."

i'm just saying that the client will appreciate the good AND bad pics, so why not give them all? (of course you can delete the obvious goofs like out of focus or shots with lens cap on).
you can print the nice ones for album, and give all (incl "bad") on a CD.

[CanonGolfer]

i'm just saying that the client will appreciate the good AND bad pics, so why not give them all? (of course you can delete the obvious goofs like out of focus or shots with lens cap on).
you can print the nice ones for album, and give all (incl "bad") on a CD.

As a client, why the hell would you want to see the bad shots? And as a photographer why would you want those floating around on peoples websites and facebooks and crap like that? It doesn't mean you are a bad photographer but no one is going to look at bad pics and think "oh I want that guy to shoot my wedding, with pics like that..."

[Billo78]

Freaking 102, do you seriously think a client would apprciate wading through 1500 wedding photos when 1000 of them are duplicates or just bad photos? If Henry Ford listened to what his customers wanted he would have made a faster horse.

[Krapo]

I've been in the same situation as the OP. What I did in order to find a compromise was to give them a few extra shots that met my quality standards but were almost duplicates of the same scenes. It's not rare that I take 4 or 5 shots of the same scene, to get one good. The remaining 3-4 can be in-focus and almost as good as the selected one.

If I believe that showing a given picture would harm my reputation, I don't give it away. That includes shots that are out-of-focus, badly framed, badly exposed or where the subject is awful.

Ideally, I try to avoid doing this as much as possible. It takes time (personally, I would then have to post-process the extra ones to ensure consistent output quality) and it doesn't add any value. As said earlier, it is a compromise, not a rule.

[cdifoto]

i'm just saying that the client will appreciate the good AND bad pics, so why not give them all? (of course you can delete the obvious goofs like out of focus or shots with lens cap on).
you can print the nice ones for album, and give all (incl "bad") on a CD.

Depends on your definition of "bad"...

And no, that's not up to the client to decide. That's up to me. It's actually part of the service my clients are paying me to receive. In hiring me, they are trusting my judgment in post (which includes culling) in addition to my skills as a photographer during the session itself.

If they just wanted someone to shoot & burn, they could and would have chosen any one of the hundreds of low priced craigslisters.

[shmoogy]

As it's been stated so many times already, you just have to tell them that substandard pictures are deleted upon initial review, and that you gave them all the pictures which are worthy (Good time to mention that you actually gave them more than the maximum you had already planned)

Best of luck

[LauraSB]

I had a mom like this before. She wanted to see the other shots too. We agreed in writing for 30 retouched images. I gave them 45 and she wanted to see the others. I told her we could meet in person and for a fee she could have more photos. She never did make that appointment with me.

You will run into people who are satisfied and happy that they could get 60 images for 120 bucks. That's pretty awesome. Then you will run into people who will never appreciate what we do as photographers. A local DJ this morning was talking about how he's started hitting hard on his hobby as a photographer and was asked to do a friend's wedding at the last minute. He's only been into photography as a hobby for less than 3 months and he bombed the wedding. He did it for free. He was saying how after he had done the wedding he has a new appreciation for photographers who do this as a living.

You upheld your end of the contract. There's nothing wrong with them wanting more photos. Absolutely nothing. Now you have to decide if it's worth it to you to give away your photos and time processing. OR is it worth it to the B&G to pay you to do extra work. You just have to be firm with your decision.

You will make the right decision.

[alt4852]

it's just a wedding shoot. they don't care about the best pic of grandma, they want all pics of grandma. don't confuse wedding shoots with art. when it comes to weddings, xmas, birthdays, etc., the client just wants lots of pics -- you can sort them into good/bad and tell them your opinion, but they just want pics, and the more the better. they may cherish the blurry shot of uncle bob with goofy look on his face and one eye closed -- who are you to judge?

that's my 2 cents

please don't ever involve yourself in paid work. your own lack of respect for your own work and the work of others will definitely manifest itself in your photos.

[Shockey]

There is no reason wedding shoots can't be art, it all depends on your own quality and performance standards.
Just a wedding shoot, that is funny, weddings are right up there with the most important photos people will ever have taken.
Some people spend a lot of time picking just the right photographer and they pay them a lot of money to be the judge.

I never give out a photo that does not meet my standards.
I make sure to get plenty of good photos of all the important people that I know about.
I can only remember twice where the wedding party came back after the photos were delivered and wanted a photo that they remembered me taking but it was not in the package.
Unfortunate but it will happen.

[m33p33]

I heard Wal-Mart was having a sale on Tube socks: buy two 12 packs get one 12 pack free.

They only had three 12 packs of tube socks left and the third pack was torn looked like it had some reddish/brownish fluid spilled on it and was missing one sock.

...I decided 24 pairs of socks would hold me over for a while.

Wal-Mart kept the socks on the shelf figuring someone will pay something for them.

Macy's will toss the ruined (by THEIR standards) product figuring they don't want to be known as a company that sell cheap crap.

The question is: Are you Wal-Mart or Are you Macy's?

The answer to that question will tell you what to do.

[sapearl]

Ditto +1, absolutely, what the man says.

Once I'm done deleting, fixing, culling, whatever, I rename/renumber all the images with the clients name and new numbering scheme. As photographers and business people we have to stand confidently firm in our resolve. You can promote a strong policy attitude without being rude or mean. But the first crack in the armor they see, and they will start chipping away at it.

Delete the images that didn't make the grade. Tell them they did get all the photos. Also tell them that you're a photographer, not a button pusher. And being a photographer means you never give away your untouched images.

Next time, renumber your images after deleting the duds so they're in a continuous sequence.

[sapearl]

Actually Chris, you may find this similar thread helpful"

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=847154

[alt4852]

I heard Wal-Mart was having a sale on Tube socks: buy two 12 packs get one 12 pack free.

They only had three 12 packs of tube socks left and the third pack was torn looked like it had some reddish/brownish fluid spilled on it and was missing one sock.

...I decided 24 pairs of socks would hold me over for a while.

Wal-Mart kept the socks on the shelf figuring someone will pay something for them.

Macy's will toss the ruined (by THEIR standards) product figuring they don't want to be known as a company that sell cheap crap.

The question is: Are you Wal-Mart or Are you Macy's?

The answer to that question will tell you what to do.

it's just a wedding shoot. they don't care about the best pic of grandma, they want all pics of grandma. don't confuse wedding shoots with art. when it comes to weddings, xmas, birthdays, etc., the client just wants lots of pics -- you can sort them into good/bad and tell them your opinion, but they just want pics, and the more the better. they may cherish the blurry shot of uncle bob with goofy look on his face and one eye closed -- who are you to judge?


it's just a retail store. they don't care about the best socks, they want all socks to be available on the shelf. don't confuse a retail store with a respectable business. when it comes to socks, shirts, jackets, etc., the customer just wants lots of choices -- you can sort them into good/bad and tell them your opinion, but they just want a wide selection of socks, and the more the better. they may cherish the ripped, torn, and stained package of socks -- who are you to judge? :p

[Overread]

If I might add a voice in here.
First I would say that I fully agree that you should not deliver substandard products to your clients - you should be in control and deliver only your best work from the shooting event (wedding or whatever it is) to them to view and make choices from. To do what some are suggesting and showing all the images is just going to damage your reputation. There will be bad shots in there; there will be mistakes and there will be minor problems. This sort of stuff will hold you back and prevent you ever advancing in the market if that is what you have released - because that is what will go by word of mouth to others. I mean heck you could shoot 1000 shots and only have 100 good ones in there - show the client all of them and those 100good ones will be lost in the mass of lowgrade results.

Secondly I would also never agree to a specified number of shots for an event unless it a very structured event (eg coorporate headshots) or you have a lot of experience in the subject area. Otherwise don't make it into a pay for shots deal - you don't want that because that lowers your image in the eyes of the client and is also damaging if you have to make up to that number with lesser images. Agree to the shoot and of course make sure that you get key images (eg the ring, cake etc...) and check if there are any special shots/people that they want captured for the day - otherwise be free to shoot and deliver your results.

However when it comes to review here is where I say don't dump everything, dump the clear disasters where it all blurr or all underexposed/blown out etc.. but keep hold all the lesser shots as well from the day. I say this only because (especailly in the case of a wedding) you might be the only person to get a shot of "so and so" from the family. I have known some people to go back to wedding photographers to ask if they do have an image of a certain relative, even if its a lesser shot. By going this rout you do your customer an extra service and its easier to explain your position that yes you have the image, but its a lower grade (which was why they never saw it before).

[m33p33]

don't confuse a retail store with a respectable business
A Retail store is not a respectable business?

the customer just wants lots of choices
no, some customers prefer quality over quantity. Compare the choices you get when you walk into a High end boutique on Rodeo Drive to that of a Knock off outlet in the garment district.

I believe there is a market for both kinds of product.
High volume low quality product and low volume high quality product both take around the same amount of time and energy to produce.

Thats why I asked "Are you a Wal-Mart or Are you a Macy's?"

who are you to judge?
I'm the professional, or at least I'm supposed to be.
If i can't tell the difference between a good or a bad photo or determine the best 50 photos out of 100 to give to a client then I should fire myself.

the O/P already delivered as promised, and then some. If the customer is unhappy, they should not have agreed to the terms in the contract.

[RDKirk]

I believe there is a market for both kinds of product.
High volume low quality product and low volume high quality product both take around the same amount of time and energy to produce.

And with regard to a professional photography small business, it should be understood to be a low-volume custom product. Every job is custom-tailored. You can't use any images from one wedding for the next, and every wedding is going to be substantially different, even if the photographer takes essentially the same poses each time. That's why photographers have to avoid treating and pricing wedding coverage as though it were a commodity--clients should understand that selecting a wedding photographer is not like buying a can of beans.

[alt4852]

don't confuse a retail store with a respectable business
A Retail store is not a respectable business?

the customer just wants lots of choices
no, some customers prefer quality over quantity. Compare the choices you get when you walk into a High end boutique on Rodeo Drive to that of a Knock off outlet in the garment district.

I believe there is a market for both kinds of product.
High volume low quality product and low volume high quality product both take around the same amount of time and energy to produce.

Thats why I asked "Are you a Wal-Mart or Are you a Macy's?"

who are you to judge?
I'm the professional, or at least I'm supposed to be.
If i can't tell the difference between a good or a bad photo or determine the best 50 photos out of 100 to give to a client then I should fire myself.

the O/P already delivered as promised, and then some. If the customer is unhappy, they should not have agreed to the terms in the contract.

m33p33, please re-read my whole post including the quoted portions and rethink your response. you're preaching to the choir, buddy. ;)

[m33p33]

my bad. read it to quick. got lost in translation. completely missed what you did there. :p

I suppose my unsolicited retort added a point though, Ironically.