Anyone need $10 bucks?

[LauraSB]

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/crg/1667057271.html

Photographer Needed for Comedy Show TUESDAY (Downtown)

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Date: 2010-03-29, 11:25AM PDT
Reply to: gigs-mhcfs-1667057271@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

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Hey team, I'm looking for a photographer to shoot a stand up comedy show this Tuesday the 30th.
Pay is small, $10, but I can also give you a $20 food and drink tab and you'll see a great comedy show.


Location: Downtown
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
Compensation: $10 plus $20 drink tab


This was sent to me in an email

[MJPhotos24]

Show up, shoot, and when they ask for the photos say nowhere in the ad did it say they wanted the photos and that will be another $290 on top of the $10 to actually get them. These ads make me die a little inside, pathetic.

[LauraSB]

LOL

[Karl Johnston]

I'd do it.

In fact I'm going to shoot them an email that I will do it providing they cover my travel expenses
<------------------
*points to Location*

[LauraSB]

Please let us know the response Karl. Please. :)

[rc13k]

I really don't see what the big deal is. Everyone has to start somewhere. You work your way up in this world, you don't just start big. I say if you're trying to build your portfolio you go for it. Do you really think the majority of millionaires in the world started off millionaires? They were likely doing free volunteer work growing up. Besides, if you don't build a name for yourself you'll get nowhere.

But obviously if you're already a seasoned photographer then you shouldn't be looking at gigs like this.

[LauraSB]

I know where the venue is at for this job. I've been to several comedy shows there. They can afford to pay more than $10.

I never said there was a problem. This was sent to me in an email. I copied and pasted it here.

[asysin2leads]

I really don't see what the big deal is. Everyone has to start somewhere. You work your way up in this world, you don't just start big. I say if you're trying to build your portfolio you go for it. Do you really think the majority of millionaires in the world started off millionaires? They were likely doing free volunteer work growing up. Besides, if you don't build a name for yourself you'll get nowhere.

But obviously if you're already a seasoned photographer then you shouldn't be looking at gigs like this.

Because someone will do it for $10 plus beer and then the promoter will think he can get away with it next time. That's how the market goes in the crapper.

Show up, shoot, and when they ask for the photos say nowhere in the ad did it say they wanted the photos and that will be another $290 on top of the $10 to actually get them. These ads make me die a little inside, pathetic.

That's just dang funny right there.

I'd do it.

In fact I'm going to shoot them an email that I will do it providing they cover my travel expenses
<------------------
*points to Location*

You should do it Karl. Then charge for the pictures afterwards, too.

[episodes Photography]

I'd do it.

In fact I'm going to shoot them an email that I will do it providing they cover my travel expenses
<------------------
*points to Location*

lol yea!!

[Andrushka]

KARL, KARL, KARL!!!

[robie]

What makes me angry and I don't care is how other photographers wine and cry how I work for free at concerts and am taking away money from the others. First off, a lot of bands can't afford or won't pay for a photographer since they have other expenses to spend their money on. I just do it for the fun and enjoy the show with the best views and add the images to my portfolio and send them to the bands. It's the other photographers own loss for missing out. Either do it and stop whining or miss out a great opportunity. Same goes here.

[Karl Johnston]

^That aint gonna pay off your student debts! ;)

[ssim]

I saw a couple of people voice their opinion, I certainly didn't see any whining. What I did see just now is someone with a guilt complex for working for free. There will be a day when you want to buy some new gear and you might wish that you had charged something. Those same bands that want our images for nothing charge thousands of dollars for a one night gig. My camera is paid for, their guitar is paid for, why shouldn't they be playing for nothing.

[robie]

I saw a couple of people voice their opinion, I certainly didn't see any whining. What I did see just now is someone with a guilt complex for working for free. There will be a day when you want to buy some new gear and you might wish that you had charged something. Those same bands that want our images for nothing charge thousands of dollars for a one night gig. My camera is paid for, their guitar is paid for, why shouldn't they be playing for nothing. They just don't have the time to pay for one. It's very rare a band has it's own photographer.

[asysin2leads]

They just don't have the time to pay for one. It's very rare a band has it's own photographer.

We're not talking about being a roady w/ the group as their photographer. What he's saying that when one band gets free photos and publicity, the word spreads. Then the next band wants it for free. Then the next. Then the next. Then the......well, you get the picture. If photographers tell them no and only offer services for a fee, then bands will have to start playing. Do you think that the bands walk into a club and tell them they'll play for free? Hell, no. They won't walk into a club w/out a contract and some form of compensation. Why should you be any different?

[MJPhotos24]

I really don't see what the big deal is. Everyone has to start somewhere. You work your way up in this world, you don't just start big. I say if you're trying to build your portfolio you go for it. Do you really think the majority of millionaires in the world started off millionaires? They were likely doing free volunteer work growing up. Besides, if you don't build a name for yourself you'll get nowhere.

But obviously if you're already a seasoned photographer then you shouldn't be looking at gigs like this.

Bad business practices 101 - you don't need to be shooting for crappy prices just to build a portfolio! If you can't get out and build a portfolio without being taken advantage of something is wrong with you. You think millionaires started out giving it away? Hell no, they hustled and got what they're worth and added on top of it!

[ssim]

Bad business practices 101 - you don't need to be shooting for crappy prices just to build a portfolio! If you can't get out and build a portfolio without being taken advantage of something is wrong with you. You think millionaires started out giving it away? Hell no, they hustled and got what they're worth and added on top of it!

We're not talking about being a roady w/ the group as their photographer. What he's saying that when one band gets free photos and publicity, the word spreads. Then the next band wants it for free. Then the next. Then the next. Then the......well, you get the picture. If photographers tell them no and only offer services for a fee, then bands will have to start playing. Do you think that the bands walk into a club and tell them they'll play for free? Hell, no. They won't walk into a club w/out a contract and some form of compensation. Why should you be any different?

Two excellent posts, imo

[MJPhotos24]

What makes me angry and I don't care is how other photographers wine and cry how I work for free at concerts and am taking away money from the others. First off, a lot of bands can't afford or won't pay for a photographer since they have other expenses to spend their money on. I just do it for the fun and enjoy the show with the best views and add the images to my portfolio and send them to the bands. It's the other photographers own loss for missing out. Either do it and stop whining or miss out a great opportunity. Same goes here.

Sorry Robie, I ran a label for several years, co-produced a few CD's, paid for bands to get into the studio, ran promotions, booked shows, you know pretty much every aspect of the music business and you're wrong.

Every time I got a demo disc with crappy photography the first thing I told them was to hire a photographer because that's the first thing the person will see when opening the press kit. It's a very important part of being in a band, you're trying to sell your image and good photos are all about that. If a band is serious they will pay a good photographer to come and do top level photos for them, if they're not they'll use freebie suckers who do it just to get in the show trading images for access.

The ones who took the latter route got immediately thrown in the trash. Why you ask? Because they're not serious about doing what they need to do to get noticed. It's just like these idiots who cut corners on demos, it's CHEAP to get 3-4 songs recorded professionally to capture what you can do in the studio, but they cut corners thinking they have no money. My buddy right now is tossing pizzas for money and he's one of the best drummers around, his band is great, they have no money...yet they hired an Associated Press photographer, they paid (with a small loan from me to put them over the top in what they needed) for quality recordings and paid it off immediately because the demo disc sold because of that. It's an old business model, you spend it to make it.

Learn from mistakes, and take advice of those that have done these mistakes...I've made them, and learned from them.

We're not talking about being a roady w/ the group as their photographer. What he's saying that when one band gets free photos and publicity, the word spreads. Then the next band wants it for free. Then the next. Then the next. Then the......well, you get the picture. If photographers tell them no and only offer services for a fee, then bands will have to start playing. Do you think that the bands walk into a club and tell them they'll play for free? Hell, no. They won't walk into a club w/out a contract and some form of compensation. Why should you be any different?

This is not completely true. When a band gets a name it is, they want a certain guarantee and it ranges depending on the crowd they can bring in. However, I remember getting a hug from a lead singer when I handed him a little cash at one show I put on, he was amazed I paid him (it was literally almost NOTHING!) The band had played a lot of shows and had never been paid, not once! Bands will get on shows and play for free because there is other revenue streams, i.e. the merch stand! The band I brought in as the headliner that night got more than them, but it was still low. Thing is they were BRILLIANT at selling merch, they hustled their backsides off and even in small crowds could walk away with a lot of sales.

Playing for free while in a band is a lot different than shooting for free. Playing people actually listen and if they like you will buy a CD. Shooting people see the photo and go hey that's nice and don't do crap about it, a byline means nothing.

[IndyJeff]

Mike my son plays in a band, they just had an offer to play a gig in Kent Ohio. Now get this for two vehicles to drive with equipment and the band this club guy was offering them $30 for a 45 minute show !!!!!!! Oh boy. Of course they just kind of laughed and respectfully declined to do the show. My son has learned something from me at least. He said, "Heck that won't even pay for the gas to get the van up there let alone back home."

[MJPhotos24]

Mike my son plays in a band, they just had an offer to play a gig in Kent Ohio. Now get this for two vehicles to drive with equipment and the band this club guy was offering them $30 for a 45 minute show !!!!!!! Oh boy. Of course they just kind of laughed and respectfully declined to do the show. My son has learned something from me at least. He said, "Heck that won't even pay for the gas to get the van up there let alone back home."
Oh there's those fun offers that you have to pass on, just got one for photos actually oh so similar, but oh so worse. Should have mentioned usually talking local bands who are not driving far and getting on shows with bigger crowds. Though I'd like to talk to a buddy who still books shows as I've noticed many of the clubs have gone out of business and it seems the bands disappeared. My guess is the old saying you get what you pay for. Clubs using free bands, not getting people coming in, doors closed!

[DDCSD]

...add the images to my portfolio...

So you can impress even bigger bands and give them photos as well? :lol:

[robie]

Sorry Robie, I ran a label for several years, co-produced a few CD's, paid for bands to get into the studio, ran promotions, booked shows, you know pretty much every aspect of the music business and you're wrong.

Every time I got a demo disc with crappy photography the first thing I told them was to hire a photographer because that's the first thing the person will see when opening the press kit. It's a very important part of being in a band, you're trying to sell your image and good photos are all about that. If a band is serious they will pay a good photographer to come and do top level photos for them, if they're not they'll use freebie suckers who do it just to get in the show trading images for access.

The ones who took the latter route got immediately thrown in the trash. Why you ask? Because they're not serious about doing what they need to do to get noticed. It's just like these idiots who cut corners on demos, it's CHEAP to get 3-4 songs recorded professionally to capture what you can do in the studio, but they cut corners thinking they have no money. My buddy right now is tossing pizzas for money and he's one of the best drummers around, his band is great, they have no money...yet they hired an Associated Press photographer, they paid (with a small loan from me to put them over the top in what they needed) for quality recordings and paid it off immediately because the demo disc sold because of that. It's an old business model, you spend it to make it.

Learn from mistakes, and take advice of those that have done these mistakes...I've made them, and learned from them.



This is not completely true. When a band gets a name it is, they want a certain guarantee and it ranges depending on the crowd they can bring in. However, I remember getting a hug from a lead singer when I handed him a little cash at one show I put on, he was amazed I paid him (it was literally almost NOTHING!) The band had played a lot of shows and had never been paid, not once! Bands will get on shows and play for free because there is other revenue streams, i.e. the merch stand! The band I brought in as the headliner that night got more than them, but it was still low. Thing is they were BRILLIANT at selling merch, they hustled their backsides off and even in small crowds could walk away with a lot of sales.

Playing for free while in a band is a lot different than shooting for free. Playing people actually listen and if they like you will buy a CD. Shooting people see the photo and go hey that's nice and don't do crap about it, a byline means nothing. Well I have been paid by a smaller band but the bigger bands I have photographed didn't offer to pay. I found no big deal of it and just moved on. It's practice. I understand what you all are trying to say here but I won't act like a baby asking for money and if they say no, turn around and walk away, etc. This is just something I do for fun so I can honestly care less about being paid for it.

[exwintech]

Awww, c'mon, folks! They seem to be giving us Hobbyists a go at our first big Shooting-Gig!

Can do them a First-Class deal! I can take along my Very Best Camera - the Canon SX10 - and I'll fully-charge a set of AA-Eneloops for such a big occasion...!

And as a Special Favour - I'll use my Very Best Class 6 2GB Card (the Sandisk one that actually works properly!)

I can sure shoot-off lots of Pix - then for that fabulous $10.00 - they can have the choice of the "keepers" - either of them....!

Wow - and they're giving a Banquet-Menu $20.00 nosh-voucher, too - I'll be able to pig-out for hours on that!

So just get them to send me the Air Tickets - from Sydney - for that date... :cool:

Regards, Dave.

[LauraSB]

Well I have been paid by a smaller band but the bigger bands I have photographed didn't offer to pay. I found no big deal of it and just moved on. It's practice. I understand what you all are trying to say here but I won't act like a baby asking for money and if they say no, turn around and walk away, etc. This is just something I do for fun so I can honestly care less about being paid for it.


There are people out there that do this for a living. For a paycheck. To pay rent and bills and new equipment. To those people it does matter. To those people who spent thousands of dollars to go to school to obtain that degree it matters. It's not acting like a baby to want to be paid for providing a service. People often think of the photographer last when the photographer does a very important job of capturing your moment.

[MJPhotos24]

Well I have been paid by a smaller band but the bigger bands I have photographed didn't offer to pay. I found no big deal of it and just moved on. It's practice. I understand what you all are trying to say here but I won't act like a baby asking for money and if they say no, turn around and walk away, etc. This is just something I do for fun so I can honestly care less about being paid for it.

Because there's people like yourself that just hand it over free, that's why they don't pay or bring it up. Bigger the band the more people there are that are willing to just hand them over for nothing. Worst part is most giving it away don't realize that if the band uses them w/o a written contract they could end up in some very hot water. It's why labels pay photographers to shoot for them, both promotional and live shots.

I just shot my buddies band, everyone here has heard of them, or at least heard them if they attended any sporting event the last five years. Shot for free, good practice - guess how many images he got to use? ZERO! They linked to my site with the photos off their site and that's it. Just because you shoot the show for practice doesn't mean you have to hand over images for free. Sure if he wanted a print I'd hook him up, that's what friends are for...but the label wants to use one in the next album well then it's business and I stop dealing with him and talk to their manager.

[robie]

Because there's people like yourself that just hand it over free, that's why they don't pay or bring it up. Bigger the band the more people there are that are willing to just hand them over for nothing. Worst part is most giving it away don't realize that if the band uses them w/o a written contract they could end up in some very hot water. It's why labels pay photographers to shoot for them, both promotional and live shots.

I just shot my buddies band, everyone here has heard of them, or at least heard them if they attended any sporting event the last five years. Shot for free, good practice - guess how many images he got to use? ZERO! They linked to my site with the photos off their site and that's it. Just because you shoot the show for practice doesn't mean you have to hand over images for free. Sure if he wanted a print I'd hook him up, that's what friends are for...but the label wants to use one in the next album well then it's business and I stop dealing with him and talk to their manager. Which band? The only guy who I know makes a bit of money for his music photography is this guy:

http://www.jessbaumung.com/

Check the site out, he's cool.

[BillsBayou]

Which band? The only guy who I know makes a bit of money for his music photography is this guy:

http://www.jessbaumung.com/

Check the site out, he's cool.

Wow! I'd pay $10 to have this guy shoot my band. ;)

[BillsBayou]

What makes me angry and I don't care is how other photographers wine and cry how I work for free at concerts and am taking away money from the others. First off, a lot of bands can't afford or won't pay for a photographer since they have other expenses to spend their money on. I just do it for the fun and enjoy the show with the best views and add the images to my portfolio and send them to the bands. It's the other photographers own loss for missing out. Either do it and stop whining or miss out a great opportunity. Same goes here.

Do the shoot for free, but get paid for the prints.

Do the prints for free, but get paid for the shoot.

Pick one.

I hate to see the mentality that persists that people getting artwork results for free are SOMEHOW doing the artists a favor.

I've seen Craigslist ads which are insulting ($10 for an ad?!?). They offer EXPOSURE and EXPERIENCE as part of the privilege of doing the work.

I've seen blogs where the blogger is mad that a photographer contacted his ISP and had a photo pulled from the blog. "I attributed the photo to him. You'd think he'd be grateful for the exposure."

I've seen people offer photo gigs as "portfolio builders."

If you want to pay someone in EXPOSURE, then attribute their work AFTER you've paid them a fair wage. If you want to give someone EXPOSURE on the web, link to their page; never borrow (read: steal) bandwidth or photos and think that an "Attributed To" tag is enough.

If you like the results, pay for the work. If you do the work, get paid for the results.

I'm an amateur. I've been paid by friends to shoot a total of two weddings. Both times I was underpaid. Both times, I ate some poor photographer's lunch. Both times I depressed the market price. "Bill's my friend. He'll do it for $50." I'm embarrassed. I've sinned.

I did a shoot recently for my daughter's birthday party. She and four friends did a group Sweet Sixteen party. I set up the backdrop and strobe and did what I thought to be a good job. Since I was the client, I don't think of it as eating anyone else's lunch. If any of the guests want me to shoot THEIR Sweet Sixteen party, I'm charging for it. I'm an amateur, so I'd have to come up with an unknown pricing structure, but I'd make it a market price. Something like $200 for the night plus $10 per 5x7 or $300 for the night and $5 per print, or $500 for the night with $1 prints. Point is, I get paid or some other photographer gets paid.

I'd do this $10. I'd have them sign a contract first:
$10 job: I use my seven year old's Fisher Price digital camera.
$100 job: I use 14 year old's G11.
$200 job: I use my 16 year old's Rebel XSi.
$400 job: I bring my 5D, 7D, and L lenses.
$600 job: I bring strobes and a backdrop.

Want prints? Another contract.

[rc13k]

I'd still have to disagree. People will be willing to pay more once they feel your work is worth it. Also, believe it or not, after doing a free gig, people are actually willing to pay the next time. It's not like they don't understand the time you put into it. I've done a free gig before which opened me up to several referrals for paid gigs. All you people think about is making a quick buck. You guys don't understand the importance of building customers, your name, and building your experience. Once you have a good portfolio, then you can start thinking about charging big bucks for your gigs. Till then you should take up as many small gigs as you can.

Also, you can't control the market, you can only control your skill and your own marketing. So what if people are willing to do it for free or for $10, that's their choice. Heck, when I started doing accounting I was doing volunteer work for free. My friends who weren't willing to volunteer and sitting at home right now with no experience. Settle for less while you're an amateur, and think about the big bucks after you become pro. Just because you're doing it free doesn't mean it's gonna be like that your whole life. It just opens the door to many more opportunities.

It's economics 101. Supply and demand. If there's no demand for your work, then your value will be low as well. Once demand for your work goes through the roof and you're fully booked, then you can start raising your price according to the demands of the market.

[BillsBayou]

I'd still have to disagree. People will be willing to pay more once they feel your work is worth it.
Which fits with my "Do the work for free and charge for the prints" suggestion.
Also, believe it or not, after doing a free gig, people are actually willing to pay the next time. It's not like they don't understand the time you put into it. I've done a free gig before which opened me up to several referrals for paid gigs. All you people think about is making a quick buck.
Gotta eat.
You guys don't understand the importance of building customers, your name, and building your experience. Once you have a good portfolio, then you can start thinking about charging big bucks for your gigs.
Work for free; charge for prints; build your portfolio.

Still get paid. Still get work. Still build your portfolio. Get popular and change your pricing structure.
Till then you should take up as many small gigs as you can.

Also, you can't control the market, you can only control your skill and your own marketing. So what if people are willing to do it for free or for $10, that's their choice. Heck, when I started doing accounting I was doing volunteer work for free. My friends who weren't willing to volunteer and sitting at home right now with no experience.
Because the market had people giving the service away for free!
Settle for less while you're an amateur, and think about the big bucks after you become pro. Just because you're doing it free doesn't mean it's gonna be like that your whole life. It just opens the door to many more opportunities.

It's economics 101. Supply and demand.
When the supply of free labor exists, paid labor is not in demand.
If there's no demand for your work, then your value will be low as well. Once demand for your work goes through the roof and you're fully booked, then you can start raising your price according to the demands of the market.

From a different perspective, you and I are in agreement.

[LauraSB]

I'd still have to disagree. People will be willing to pay more once they feel your work is worth it. Also, believe it or not, after doing a free gig, people are actually willing to pay the next time. It's not like they don't understand the time you put into it. I've done a free gig before which opened me up to several referrals for paid gigs. All you people think about is making a quick buck. You guys don't understand the importance of building customers, your name, and building your experience. Once you have a good portfolio, then you can start thinking about charging big bucks for your gigs. Till then you should take up as many small gigs as you can.

Also, you can't control the market, you can only control your skill and your own marketing. So what if people are willing to do it for free or for $10, that's their choice. Heck, when I started doing accounting I was doing volunteer work for free. My friends who weren't willing to volunteer and sitting at home right now with no experience. Settle for less while you're an amateur, and think about the big bucks after you become pro. Just because you're doing it free doesn't mean it's gonna be like that your whole life. It just opens the door to many more opportunities.

It's economics 101. Supply and demand. If there's no demand for your work, then your value will be low as well. Once demand for your work goes through the roof and you're fully booked, then you can start raising your price according to the demands of the market.

I have to disagree with your entire first paragraph. I was in the military for 12 years. I was the public affairs for our command for 4 years. I wrote all the articles and did all the photos for press releases and for our website. I did all of this on my own camera and my own laptop while I was at work. During military time I did all of the military public affairs work. Not on my time. When I left it was my time. I did the work for free because it allowed me to take pictures and meet some awesome people in our military. I got invited to cover events over actual military photojournalists. I did this all for free. For 4 years. I've done over 20 formal ceremonies for my old command and not once did they offer to pay me. I didn't want any type of pay because it was during work hours and it allowed me to build my portfolio while drawing a paycheck from the military still-that's why I never charged. My work hangs in offices and on the walls of my old building. When I got out of the military the command continued to request my services. I did their Christmas party which I charged only $200 for. They opted not to purchase a CD because it was an extra $350 with a limited release. No one has bought a single print from me. About 3 weeks ago I'm contacted again to shoot another ceremony. Now I lived 2 hours away(4 hour round trip with no traffic) from my old base and they wanted me to to shoot a 2 hour ceremony, retouch photos within a week and give them a CD. For $100. All of that normally would cost $450. But I was willing to do it for $300 since I really like my old commanding officer. The people trying to hire me said no because it wasn't for free. They ended up going with someone's point and shoot camera whose batteries died not even half way through the ceremony. The quality of my work hasn't changed. In fact since getting out of the military I've had more time to pursue other types of photography and learn new PP and have even gone back to school to learn the business end of it all. My old command always knew that if they were to request my services outside of working hours you have to pay. Or you get nothing. During work hours it was different because like I said I loved doing the photojournalism and I was still drawing a paycheck and it took me away from my actual job which I didn't like. And they knew what time was put into retouching and resizing for web, cropping, effects and whatever else was requested since I did it all at work.

We live in a free is for me type of world now. And I fully understand most of it and sympathise with most people. Hell I drew unemployment for a few months. What I don't sympathise with are people who can afford to pay but want to chimp people out of money. Like I said in one of my other posts, I've been to this comedy club and I know the type of money they draw from ticket prices alone. They can afford much more than $10.

In my experience and many others that I've read on here if you do something for free or little to no pay people will expect that from you all the time. I've lost numerous jobs because people thought maybe I was too expensive so they went with free and regretted it. Personally I think this ad is very insulting.

[Digital_zen]

You think Dan Winters shot Pac for free ?

[MJPhotos24]

Which band? The only guy who I know makes a bit of money for his music photography is this guy:

http://www.jessbaumung.com/

Check the site out, he's cool.
5 years ago I could rattle off some names, not anymore as they have faded from my memory - it's been at least that long since shooting shows on a normal basis. There's a bunch out there though, some shooting for labels, clubs, mags or bands directly. Not the easiest to get into, but they exist.

Have to remember when you go directly to the band themselves they are usually not the ones handling business. Once you get to a certain level you have someone to do it for you, take their cut and help along in decisions. Smart managers, and band members if they act as one, know nothing in life is free. It was easier in film days to sell yourself to anyone, nowadays a bit more difficult but can still be done. Market research is the key.

The band is...
http://fourseamimages.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/03/dropkick-murphys-provide-a-break-from-baseball.html

If he wanted images for himself, we'd come up with something - though sure he has a ton already. If they wanted some for use in an album, different story and I'd want to deal with the manager and not him. Oddly that is one thing I wanted to talk with him about, the photogs they've used and all that but never got the chance. Ah well, maybe next show.

[MJPhotos24]

I'd still have to disagree. People will be willing to pay more once they feel your work is worth it. Also, believe it or not, after doing a free gig, people are actually willing to pay the next time.

Do you know how rare that is? Almost always after you change your free shooting ways they just find another sucker to do it free, very rarely do they "see the light" and start paying. Sometimes they do, my first gig when not even wanting to do it as a profession was a trade off deal - later on he insisted on paying since I got better. It happens, VERY rare.

All you people think about is making a quick buck.

Complete crap! People who do this as a profession think about several things, with the number one thing usually if they want to shoot such an event (there's good reason I don't care about the money and turn down weddings!) Then it's bottom line, why would I commit to shoot a free event when if I put some work in maybe can get a paid one?

You guys don't understand the importance of building customers, your name, and building your experience. Once you have a good portfolio, then you can start thinking about charging big bucks for your gigs. Till then you should take up as many small gigs as you can.

Said this at least 100x on here, why is it the mentality that you have to accept bad offers to build a portfolio? People seriously can't get off their backsides and shoot for practice on their own? They HAVE to have someone use the images just to take a photo? That's a horrible mindset. You don't have to give away your practice images just to build a portfolio.

Also, you can't control the market, you can only control your skill and your own marketing. So what if people are willing to do it for free or for $10, that's their choice. Heck, when I started doing accounting I was doing volunteer work for free. My friends who weren't willing to volunteer and sitting at home right now with no experience. Settle for less while you're an amateur, and think about the big bucks after you become pro. Just because you're doing it free doesn't mean it's gonna be like that your whole life. It just opens the door to many more opportunities.

First opportunity would be to learn how to get taken advantage of so it doesn't happen again. I just listened to two SID's talking about this at a game discussing what they do for photography, one came straight out and said it - they blatantly use this cheap guy for all he's worth and he could be charging more but they lie to him and take advantage. Free is a mistake, you get a far better reputation working WITH them than showing how desperate you are by giving it away.

If you don't have to give it away then why would you? On top of that let's say you really do want practice, do you not have friends and family? Why can't you "hook them up" and use them as practice instead of trying to find someone you don't know personally and give it away?

It's economics 101. Supply and demand. If there's no demand for your work, then your value will be low as well. Once demand for your work goes through the roof and you're fully booked, then you can start raising your price according to the demands of the market.

Chapter two of Economics 101 - when looking for a service always put the price as low as humanly possible and hope they accept it knowing you would have paid 5x the amount. Negotiations are a big part of economics 101. If they don't meet your price (minimum) you say see and move on. Sometimes hard to do for jobs you really want to do, but it's a business from day one.

BTW - I want to make it clear, I've made these mistakes...it did NOT help in any way, shape, or form. Look back at those mistakes and realize giving stuff away did one thing, held me back.

ALSO note nothing is being said about trade offs, those exist frequently now - it's about a straight up being taken advantage of relationship.

[asysin2leads]

It's the Craigslist Mentality. People want a Corvette for the price of a Chevette and bitch and moan when they don't get it. It comes down to marketing. If you market yourself as the best, people will pay for the best.

I was asked to shoot a youth tournament last year. When they asked for my day rate, they laughed at me when I told them. I have bills to pay, too. I went and shot the games on my own and made a fair amount of money from print sales doing it. I saw one of the "official" photographers there and all he was doing was sitting down stuffing his face and I could see the every field. It goes both ways. Organizers are also looking for the Corvette on a Chevette budget.

[MJPhotos24]

It's the Craigslist Mentality. People want a Corvette for the price of a Chevette and bitch and moan when they don't get it. It comes down to marketing. If you market yourself as the best, people will pay for the best.

I was asked to shoot a youth tournament last year. When they asked for my day rate, they laughed at me when I told them. I have bills to pay, too. I went and shot the games on my own and made a fair amount of money from print sales doing it. I saw one of the "official" photographers there and all he was doing was sitting down stuffing his face and I could see the every field. It goes both ways. Organizers are also looking for the Corvette on a Chevette budget.

Did you have permission to shoot the event like that on top of the "official" photographers? Seems most events would be able to tell you to leave considering they had a deal with the official photographers. Know any of my tournaments if I saw someone doing that I'm having the organizers tell them to get out of there. Parents shooting their kid don't care, just not a random guy trying to sell prints...seems to be stepping on toes.

On the note of a Chevette scenario it always reminds me of the $6 hair cuts commercial. Just change it to photography!

[asysin2leads]

Did you have permission to shoot the event like that on top of the "official" photographers? Seems most events would be able to tell you to leave considering they had a deal with the official photographers. Know any of my tournaments if I saw someone doing that I'm having the organizers tell them to get out of there. Parents shooting their kid don't care, just not a random guy trying to sell prints...seems to be stepping on toes.

I did approach event organizers. Told them I was there for some pics AND not part of the company shooting the tourney. Asked if it would be ok. Said as long as I didn't interfere w/ the other photogs, they didn't care. Again, I only saw one and he was eating and all fields had action on them.

One of the parents came up to me as I was leaving and asked if I got shots of his kid. I told him I wasn't sure and I would post all the shots into an online gallery. He asked for my card. That's pretty much were all of my sales came from. Word got around.

[MJPhotos24]

I did approach event organizers. Told them I was there for some pics AND not part of the company shooting the tourney. Asked if it would be ok. Said as long as I didn't interfere w/ the other photogs, they didn't care. Again, I only saw one and he was eating and all fields had action on them.

One of the parents came up to me as I was leaving and asked if I got shots of his kid. I told him I wasn't sure and I would post all the shots into an online gallery. He asked for my card. That's pretty much were all of my sales came from. Word got around.

Sounds like the photographer of a tournament I just shot for some teams individually for PJ use while he was selling prints. Shooting with him he missed a LOT going on, seemed to be watching the game more than shooting. When going to the back fields he was hiding under a canopy, literally hiding, all you could see is his feet so nobody knew where he was. This while 5 games were going on. Laziest "photographer" ever seen, and I've seen some lazy ones. Apparently he paid for the right to be official and was losing out big time with very little orders. You'd think you'd work harder!

That stuff didn't annoy me, but what did was he asks me if I shoot for (insert team name her) and I say yea and he continues to ask how I get my clients, how do I get a hold of them, do they call me, what do I do - all before even introducing himself. Felt like asking if he wanted a full client list with contact info! Just gave him some flat run around answer. Should probably try to take that tournament away from him next year!

[asysin2leads]

Sounds like the photographer of a tournament I just shot for some teams individually for PJ use while he was selling prints. Shooting with him he missed a LOT going on, seemed to be watching the game more than shooting. When going to the back fields he was hiding under a canopy, literally hiding, all you could see is his feet so nobody knew where he was. This while 5 games were going on. Laziest "photographer" ever seen, and I've seen some lazy ones. Apparently he paid for the right to be official and was losing out big time with very little orders. You'd think you'd work harder!

That stuff didn't annoy me, but what did was he asks me if I shoot for (insert team name her) and I say yea and he continues to ask how I get my clients, how do I get a hold of them, do they call me, what do I do - all before even introducing himself. Felt like asking if he wanted a full client list with contact info! Just gave him some flat run around answer. Should probably try to take that tournament away from him next year!

I know what you mean. Like I said, I only saw one photographer and one sitting at the "booth." I wandered around to a few of the fields and got shots. I didn't advertise in ANY way. I didn't wear a shirt w/ my company name on it. I didn't solicit my business to parents in any way. I think that would have been wrong. I had merely gone for experience and I got some.

The biggest problem w/ this years tournament is that the parent organization isn't even in Ohio. They will be using the same company because they are local to the parent organization. I might handle it the same way this year. If I am met w/ resistance, then I'll move on.

If I am able to get a tourney contract, I have a friend of mine who does banners. He's making me 4 6x8' banners in exchange for some family photos. If I don't get the event trailer, I will at the very least have a canopy set up w/ product samples and information. I plan on getting the little yard signs (like the local contractors) and have them labeled w/ my logo and contact information, as well as arrows pointing to my booth/trailer. I will put them throughout the venue.

[realmike15]

You guys slam each other wayyy too much here. The man made an offer (I personally wouldn't do it for such a small amount of money), but I photograph my friends band for free all the time. Maybe someone else is willing to do it.

You know that inner monologue that tells you not to say certain things out loud... it works with online forums too.

[robie]

You guys slam each other wayyy too much here. The man made an offer (I personally wouldn't do it for such a small amount of money), but I photograph my friends band for free all the time. Maybe someone else is willing to do it.

You know that inner monologue that tells you not to say certain things out loud... it works with online forums too. Thank you, I wasn't going to say anything, but someone had to bring this up. What is the point of taking life to seriously? Common. Clients have budgets, just like the rest of us and if most of you are willing to walk away for losing out on the $150 or whatever amount they can't afford to pay then why do you bother photographing?? Photography is a hobby and you should take whatever opportunity you can get. That's what I do and I don't mind at all. Other people would kill to have $10, $50, $100, etc so I would stop making a "point" regarding business and just take whatever money you get offered. Money is money and some of you people are disgusting on what you say because there are far more deserving people out there who deserve it and appreciate on getting offered some.

[MJPhotos24]

You guys slam each other wayyy too much here. The man made an offer (I personally wouldn't do it for such a small amount of money), but I photograph my friends band for free all the time. Maybe someone else is willing to do it.

You know that inner monologue that tells you not to say certain things out loud... it works with online forums too.

Notice the key word in bold, nobody is saying don't hook up your friends - though there is that old saying friends(family) and business don't mix - it's a popular saying for a reason! This however is a third party advertising to take advantage of someone and work for free or close to it, or in more than likely case pay to work. Anyone that wants to do it, do it. Expect bad pay, a half heart thank you, and never hear from them again. 99% of the time they're looking for a patsy, someone to use to get what they want for as little as they can. It sucks but it's how things are, very very VERY rarely will they ever turn into a good client because once you cut off them taking advantage of you they'll find another sucker.

It's a hobby go at it...if you ever want to do it as a job, don't! It's a mistake, there's better ways to do things and people who know are trying to tell those that don't and haven't been through it - called learning from your mistakes. Sorry it's not all rainbows, lolly pops, and puppies but last I checked it's not the way this business is and is good reason why most people who love it as a hobby hate it as a business and fail miserably to ever make it.



Thank you, I wasn't going to say anything, but someone had to bring this up. What is the point of taking life to seriously? Common.

Robie, no offense but you know nothing about doing photography as a business or business in general it seems (or common vs. come on). It's not a hobby for everyone, it's not something they do when they get home from work, it's WORK! It's simple mathematics, $10 for a gig and it costs $12.50 in gas alone to get there and back, and that doesn't even include hours involved and you're already in a hole. What should I tell the gas company when they ask for their money? How about the mortgage people? Car payment? Kids that want meals three times a day the little buggers? Sorry guys, I was taken advantage of by someone under paying me....what do you mean you don't care and my house was just foreclosed on?

Clients have budgets, just like the rest of us and if most of you are willing to walk away for losing out on the $150 or whatever amount they can't afford to pay then why do you bother photographing??

Simple, they're not a client if they can't pay a certain price that meets your cost of doing business, and note that could be different amounts if you live across the street from the club vs. an hour away vs. a state away. It could be different depending on how much time is involved, what they want, etc. Nobody is putting a strict amount on anything and of course over charging is just as bad as under charging. Simple answer to this is you don't bother photographing the event, why would you? Go out and get a gig that pays $100, or $200, or $500, etc.

Photography is a hobby and you should take whatever opportunity you can get. That's what I do and I don't mind at all. Other people would kill to have $10, $50, $100, etc so I would stop making a "point" regarding business and just take whatever money you get offered. Money is money and some of you people are disgusting on what you say because there are far more deserving people out there who deserve it and appreciate on getting offered some.

This is very poorly written so trying to figure out what you mean. I'll say it again, it's NOT A HOBBY FOR EVERYONE! Just because it's a hobby for you does not mean it is for everyone. I pay all my bills with photography, so do thousands upon thousands of others across the world. Who would kill to do at least 4-5 hours of work for $10? Seriously? The take whatever money you get offered mentality is honestly pathetic when it comes to business, try that line next time you're buying groceries or want the new video game or whatever you do. Go get a hair cut at Supercuts and when they say $12 you tell them here's $2 and be happy with what you're offering them.


I really wouldn't hold it against the party looking for the photographer. Everyone is trying to increase their bottom line and cutting expenses is one of the best ways to do that. So it's a smart business move if you can get someone to do this and I am assuming they are wide open to anyone with a camera that can deliver anything. The downside is that this venue is not hiring a seasoned photographer to provide the club top shelf images. It's really their choice.

Don't blame him, but would guess it's hypocritical like mentioned before. You know the same people who won't do a show unless being paid their "standard amount" and insulted if someone offers lower, then they in turn offer something like this. Photographers do it all the time to, say they won't work for cheap but then go look for cheap web hosts, or free templates or cheap gear, etc. Everyone has a bit of hypocrite in them in that sense. Usually where the old "you get what you pay for" comes into play.

[robie]

Notice the key word in bold, nobody is saying don't hook up your friends - though there is that old saying friends(family) and business don't mix - it's a popular saying for a reason! This however is a third party advertising to take advantage of someone and work for free or close to it, or in more than likely case pay to work. Anyone that wants to do it, do it. Expect bad pay, a half heart thank you, and never hear from them again. 99% of the time they're looking for a patsy, someone to use to get what they want for as little as they can. It sucks but it's how things are, very very VERY rarely will they ever turn into a good client because once you cut off them taking advantage of you they'll find another sucker.

It's a hobby go at it...if you ever want to do it as a job, don't! It's a mistake, there's better ways to do things and people who know are trying to tell those that don't and haven't been through it - called learning from your mistakes. Sorry it's not all rainbows, lolly pops, and puppies but last I checked it's not the way this business is and is good reason why most people who love it as a hobby hate it as a business and fail miserably to ever make it.



Thank you, I wasn't going to say anything, but someone had to bring this up. What is the point of taking life to seriously? Common.

Robie, no offense but you know nothing about doing photography as a business or business in general it seems (or common vs. come on). It's not a hobby for everyone, it's not something they do when they get home from work, it's WORK! It's simple mathematics, $10 for a gig and it costs $12.50 in gas alone to get there and back, and that doesn't even include hours involved and you're already in a hole. What should I tell the gas company when they ask for their money? How about the mortgage people? Car payment? Kids that want meals three times a day the little buggers? Sorry guys, I was taken advantage of by someone under paying me....what do you mean you don't care and my house was just foreclosed on?

Clients have budgets, just like the rest of us and if most of you are willing to walk away for losing out on the $150 or whatever amount they can't afford to pay then why do you bother photographing??

Simple, they're not a client if they can't pay a certain price that meets your cost of doing business, and note that could be different amounts if you live across the street from the club vs. an hour away vs. a state away. It could be different depending on how much time is involved, what they want, etc. Nobody is putting a strict amount on anything and of course over charging is just as bad as under charging. Simple answer to this is you don't bother photographing the event, why would you? Go out and get a gig that pays $100, or $200, or $500, etc.

Photography is a hobby and you should take whatever opportunity you can get. That's what I do and I don't mind at all. Other people would kill to have $10, $50, $100, etc so I would stop making a "point" regarding business and just take whatever money you get offered. Money is money and some of you people are disgusting on what you say because there are far more deserving people out there who deserve it and appreciate on getting offered some.

This is very poorly written so trying to figure out what you mean. I'll say it again, it's NOT A HOBBY FOR EVERYONE! Just because it's a hobby for you does not mean it is for everyone. I pay all my bills with photography, so do thousands upon thousands of others across the world. Who would kill to do at least 4-5 hours of work for $10? Seriously? The take whatever money you get offered mentality is honestly pathetic when it comes to business, try that line next time you're buying groceries or want the new video game or whatever you do. Go get a hair cut at Supercuts and when they say $12 you tell them here's $2 and be happy with what you're offering them.




Don't blame him, but would guess it's hypocritical like mentioned before. You know the same people who won't do a show unless being paid their "standard amount" and insulted if someone offers lower, then they in turn offer something like this. Photographers do it all the time to, say they won't work for cheap but then go look for cheap web hosts, or free templates or cheap gear, etc. Everyone has a bit of hypocrite in them in that sense. Usually where the old "you get what you pay for" comes into play. You are going out of line. Stick with the photography and don't go to the haircuts. Not everybody drives either so don't assume they have to pay for the cost of gas, not everyone has kids, not everyone etc... I am done with this conversation. No matter what you will always try and get your way and try to be the winner here. I honestly don't think it matters.

[MJPhotos24]

You are going out of line. Stick with the photography and don't go to the haircuts. Not everybody drives either so don't assume they have to pay for the cost of gas, not everyone has kids, not everyone etc... I am done with this conversation. No matter what you will always try and get your way and try to be the winner here. I honestly don't think it matters.

Seriously, how is it out of line to compare it directly with another service - photography is a service, haircuts is a service, having your oil changed is a service, seeing a psychologist is a service, chiropractor is a service. All services in business compare very directly. There's nothing out of line just because it seems you do not respect photography as a business and think everyone is doing it as a hobby in your posts in this thread - yet have posts asking about getting jobs in photography, even one that says $14/hour is a "rip off", very contradicting to saying $10 for hours of work is just fine, along with one to pay off student loans - maybe time to listen to what people who do this as a profession already instead of get offended by it.

BTW - if you notice anything from my posts it's to do what works without getting taken advantage of hurting yourself and others while learning from others mistakes, not my way or the high way. Sorry you took offense, but get over it.

[nduralt]

I'd do it.

In fact I'm going to shoot them an email that I will do it providing they cover my travel expenses
<------------------
*points to Location*

HA! I wish you luck in your endeavour!

[nduralt]

Bad business practices 101 - you don't need to be shooting for crappy prices just to build a portfolio! If you can't get out and build a portfolio without being taken advantage of something is wrong with you. You think millionaires started out giving it away? Hell no, they hustled and got what they're worth and added on top of it!

PRAISE MJPhotos... He's got the right idea!