Oh my. I just got my first referral.

[TheMaggedy]

I did a practice shoot for my friend and her son over the weekend, and her neighbor saw the pics and now wants me to take pics of her 3 boys. The pics I took over the weekend were my _first_ practice shoot ever, but they have been very well received on a couple of photography boards and by mom. Mom is gaga over them.

So, the age-old question for this board. Do I charge for my second shoot ever or do I use it for portfolo building? I'm thinking that I'll do the shoot for free but build in a fee for my time if the mom actually likes the pics and wants to order prints or digital downloads. I can do this through smugmug.

Yes, no, sort of right? I know you don't want to start out as the "free" photographer. HELP!

[nuffi]

You must charge unless you plan never ever to charge. It is very clear.

And don't charge some sort of "I'm new at this" rate, either. They saw your work and wanted you. You've already passed the audition. Charge something reasonable.

Also, don't feel at all bad if you don't like the shots but the parents adore them. That is a very natural response from both parties. It is okay to take advantage of parental gushiness.

Then, after the shoot you get to use it for portfolio building. :-) And take someone special out for dinner on the proceeds. (Or put it aside to get that 200mm f/2.0L!!)

[TheMaggedy]

You must charge unless you plan never ever to charge. It is very clear.

And don't charge some sort of "I'm new at this" rate, either. They saw your work and wanted you. You've already passed the audition. Charge something reasonable.

Also, don't feel at all bad if you don't like the shots but the parents adore them. That is a very natural response from both parties. It is okay to take advantage of parental gushiness.

Then, after the shoot you get to use it for portfolio building. :-) And take someone special out for dinner on the proceeds. (Or put it aside to get that 200mm f/2.0L!!)

Thank you nuffi. That was what I needed to hear. I don''t suppose you could help me out with setting a reasonable sitting fee, could you? ;)

[Karl Johnston]

Quote whatever you want to make, $100-200/hour is not uncommon. Try that.

[griptape]

I found the easiest thing to do was make a list of set prices, and then for friends/coworkers explain to them my prices, and that they were getting a discount of x% specifically for portfolio work because they're friends/coworkers and it's doing us both a favor. I've seen photographers do work for cheap for acquaintances and then that person turns around and says "yeah, call him, he'll do it for $25". I completely agree with nuffi and Karl. You need to charge what you're worth and charge for your time. Don't do this for minimum wage. And when you do it for minimum wage for portfolio building, make it clear that they're getting a discount off your normal prices so they aren't offended or surprised next time when your prices are significantly higher, or have potential clients setting a price for you that a friend told them.

[digitalphotocandy]

Might as well begin with the end in mind. Great advice above here. Do you have any idea what's normal for your market area?

[pcj]

I found the easiest thing to do was make a list of set prices, and then for friends/coworkers explain to them my prices, and that they were getting a discount of x% specifically for portfolio work because they're friends/coworkers and it's doing us both a favor. I've seen photographers do work for cheap for acquaintances and then that person turns around and says "yeah, call him, he'll do it for $25". I completely agree with nuffi and Karl. You need to charge what you're worth and charge for your time. Don't do this for minimum wage. And when you do it for minimum wage for portfolio building, make it clear that they're getting a discount off your normal prices so they aren't offended or surprised next time when your prices are significantly higher, or have potential clients setting a price for you that a friend told them.



Seconded.

Set your ideal rate, and offer discounts (friends and family etc) and make sure they know they are getting a discount - they will feel special, you will have your going rate clear when they refer you.

I made the mistake of not charging a friend - now, every referral I get from her is under the impression I shoot for free and I've had to have a chat with her about it to get that corrected.

[jra]

I'm going to go to the other side of the fence here....Considering that you're brand new to this and have only done a single practice shoot, I would suggest getting out and continue practicing. If a mother wants to buy some prints, mark them up a little extra to give yourself some commission on a satisfactory job.
I couldn't imagine paying anyone professional rates for any trade if they have only had a single practice run in the past.

[ChrisMc73]

I did a practice shoot for my friend and her son over the weekend, and her neighbor saw the pics and now wants me to take pics of her 3 boys. The pics I took over the weekend were my _first_ practice shoot ever, but they have been very well received on a couple of photography boards and by mom. Mom is gaga over them.

So, the age-old question for this board. Do I charge for my second shoot ever or do I use it for portfolo building? I'm thinking that I'll do the shoot for free but build in a fee for my time if the mom actually likes the pics and wants to order prints or digital downloads. I can do this through smugmug.

Yes, no, sort of right? I know you don't want to start out as the "free" photographer. HELP!

A similar thing is happening to me but on Facebook, from posting pictures of my son.
I'm come to realize what these folks are saying is right, just have to follow through.
I think I'm going to start charging a "session" fee, of $120 - $150, for a 2 hour session, seems about right for my market.

Then after that, its all up in the air! Ha!! I haven't crossed that road yet.

[jukas]

I couldn't imagine paying anyone professional rates for any trade if they have only had a single practice run in the past.

You do realize every professional has a first job right? Would you go into a restaurant and expect a free meal because it's the chef's first day? Perhaps your car to be fixed for free because the shop just opened?

No, you expect to pay for the service and understand the costs prior with the expectation that service/goods will be delivered and that issues will be handled professionally if they arise.

To the OP if you ever want to do this professionally be sure you charge what you consider a fair rate. If you choose to give a discount, make sure they understand they are getting a discount and what your base rate is. Do it for free and you'll find it next to impossible to charge in the future to the same people.

I made that exact mistake when I was starting out as a consultant. I still have people who think they should pay next to nothing because I did a job cheap for them originally. Friends and family will be harder to shake free of this notion than the average consumer. F&F I now tell "My base rate is x per hour, friends and family get a % discount".

[ChrisMc73]

Good advice.

[jra]

You do realize every professional has a first job right? Would you go into a restaurant and expect a free meal because it's the chef's first day? Perhaps your car to be fixed for free because the shop just opened?

No, you expect to pay for the service and understand the costs prior with the expectation that service/goods will be delivered and that issues will be handled professionally if they arise.


I do see your point but I can assure you that I wouldn't go to a mechanic that had only practiced fixing one car nor a restaurant where the cook had only cooked a single meal. While there is a time for a person to strike out professionally, I would expect it to be only be after sufficient training and experience had been developed either through schooling or by working for someone else.

[Karl Johnston]

Training? Schooling? Are we still talking about photography? :D Photography is fuuuuuun !

[Marius B]

I have seen the discussions about this, and one thing I don't understand is the quote if you dont get paid now you will never get paid.
If you ask someone to model for you so you can get practice, you don't get paid, if someone asks you to take photos of them, you should get paid.
(if you are good enough)

BUT, In this case it is up to you to decide if you are good enough to take their money or not. Me, I will not take their money before I am confident
that I can take the image with consistent result that is good enough for me to sell. I guess it is up to you and your standards.
I will rather have a good picture out there that the model got for free, than a bad picture I did get paid for. If the picture is important to
the model I would happily forward them to a proffesional photographer.

Let me give you an example, I am confident enough to sell my work as a photographer taking pictures for people selling used cars.
I can get good results everytime (or at least better than whats out there today), I know what to look for, but when it comes to portrait,
I am still not there, last time I took pictures of my friends daughter, I missed a spot in the corner, where there was no blanket,
newbie mistake that a pro would have seen through the viewfinder. I didnt see it before I was back at my computer.

http://bottolfsen.com/2009/11november/Adelin/photos/images/Adelin_1.jpg


Or when I shot a couple that are good friends, and the images are to dark:
http://bottolfsen.com/photos/mogr/photos/images/MogR_800px_22.jpg

And my take on the discussion about free photographers taking work away from proffesionals, I don't think the problem is that
there are so many good photographers giving away pictures, but that there are so many bad photographers taking money for mediocre work.
Makes it harder for people outside the business to find and see the good ones.

What I am trying to say is that it is up to you if you wanna get paid or not, but it is not like if you dont get paid for this you will not get paid for the next :)

[jukas]

I have seen the discussions about this, and one thing I don't understand is the quote if you dont get paid now you will never get paid.


I think you're missing the point. No one is saying if you do image x for free, you can never get paid for an image in the future. However if you think that doing an image for free for Client Y won't impact your ability to get your "rack rate" from Client Y in the future think again.

If you wish to wage the uphill battle of justifying your standard rates for future work from a client you've done work free or dirt cheap for in the past good on you. As someone who has had that experience I can tell it's not worth it.

In the OP's case the potential client has already seen his work, likes his work and wants his services. This isn't the same scenario as him approaching them trying to find work to fill out his portfolio.

[Marius B]

I think you're missing the point. No one is saying if you do image x for free, you can never get paid for an image in the future. However if you think that doing an image for free for Client Y won't impact your ability to get your "rack rate" from Client Y in the future think again.

If you wish to wage the uphill battle of justifying your standard rates for future work from a client you've done work free or dirt cheap for in the past good on you. As someone who has had that experience I can tell it's not worth it.

In the OP's case the potential client has already seen his work, likes his work and wants his services. This isn't the same scenario as him approaching them trying to find work to fill out his portfolio.

It is easy for me to say, since I don't have any experience with this, but in my head I don't see the problem, either they pay or they don't get the shoot. One free shoot don't mean all shoots free, but thats just my unexperienced look at it. :) (don't wanna start a discussion about this, just my opinion)

I read the OP and know they approached her for a shoot, I just wanted to give my opinion and give some insight in how I think. If I understood it correct this is a hobby for the OP, and this is not to get food on the table. All i am saying is if you feel confident in the work you will give them, get paid, if not take it as an experience. I could probably have said the same with two lines in the first post. But what the heck :)

[Marius B]

I did a practice shoot for my friend and her son over the weekend, and her neighbor saw the pics and now wants me to take pics of her 3 boys. The pics I took over the weekend were my _first_ practice shoot ever, but they have been very well received on a couple of photography boards and by mom. Mom is gaga over them.

So, the age-old question for this board. Do I charge for my second shoot ever or do I use it for portfolo building? I'm thinking that I'll do the shoot for free but build in a fee for my time if the mom actually likes the pics and wants to order prints or digital downloads. I can do this through smugmug.

Yes, no, sort of right? I know you don't want to start out as the "free" photographer. HELP!

I would probably do something like this :)

[HappySnapper90]

You must charge unless you plan never ever to charge. It is very clear.

And don't charge some sort of "I'm new at this" rate, either. They saw your work and wanted you. You've already passed the audition. Charge something reasonable.


I disagree. You can start charging whenever you want whether it's on try #2 or try #8. And be careful by charging beyond your capabilities. Not every shoot will go well and by charging a normal price, expectations come along with that. If you aren't positive you can deliver every time, be hesitant on charging good dollars.

There's also the notion that family may like your photos more just because you are family. Family may rave about your photos, but will strangers rave too? :confused:

To the OP: can you post the photos your mom is raving about so we can see what you did?

[TheMaggedy]

Here are some of them. I know I made a ton of mistakes. There was still way more sun at 4:30 than I expected, I shot with my lens wide open too often, I forgot to use fill flash, and the crops on some are awkward.

All of these things are why I'm hesitant to charge anyone for a session at this point. I mainly want more practice. If the pictures turn out well, I can charge a reasonable fee for prints or digital downloads through my smugmug site. After reading all the advice in this thread, I think that's probably the way to go.

I appreciate everyone's input. CC on the pics is welcomed. They've been very well received, both here and on other boards. Frankly I was expecting much more critique (especially here lol) so fire away.

http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/IMG8427/821470940_hNttK-L.jpg (http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/11643443_FTtxN#821470940_hNttK-A-LB)

http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/IMG9057/821479287_opxHc-L.jpg (http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/11643443_FTtxN#821479287_opxHc-A-LB)

http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/IMG9157/821480242_ero48-L.jpg (http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/11643443_FTtxN#821480242_ero48-A-LB)

http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/IMG9310/821482675_X4sJ8-L.jpg (http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/11643443_FTtxN#821482675_X4sJ8-A-LB)

http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/IMG9407/821486193_GsXsb-L.jpg (http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/11643443_FTtxN#821486193_GsXsb-A-LB)

http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/IMG9509/821489917_Kw5V7-L.jpg (http://mairimages.smugmug.com/People/Botanic-Garden-32710/11643443_FTtxN#821489917_Kw5V7-A-LB)

[jra]

I think your images came out very nice.....I really like number 4 :)