Todays lesson learned...I should have gone with my instinct and not my pride.

[captiva]

I shoot family portraits, usually kids, when Im not shooting weddings. This post concernes a home shoot two boys aged 2 and 6 that was booked and completed 2 days ago (Tuesday).

Picture the scene, Backdrop and lighting units in a large living room. The kids were welcoming as was the mother, so after setting up I spent 20 minutes talking to the boys.
No problems here I thought so I got started with the older boy and things were going realy well. He was very natural eager to pose and show off and mum was beaming at her "Poser son".

Next up I planned to snap the younger boy and was getting on well untill he noticed his brother playing with a nintendo DS over in the corner of the room. All hell let loose, mum intervened but chose to target the older boy while watching the younger kick and punch him. At that point I should have stopped, but pride and a neglect of instinct ensured my mind was made up. The shoot was going ahead and I was not going to be beat.

The shoot.... Cajolling and bribery from the mum made matters much worse. The boys were now in command and they knew it. After nearly 2 hours I was done and done-in!.
On checking the camera it was good to see I had most of what I needed. Mum wasnt sure so I gave her access to view them on the cameras. She seemed fine, relieved even but I was aware that she was hurrying me out. She paid me and said she looked forward to seeing the proofs online in my usual 10 days. I retreated for a cool beer from my fridge and sat pleased that a sticky task had been overcome.

As an aside I use the social networking site bebo and have been fortunate to build up quite a following for my work in the last 2 years. Mum originally contacted me through bebo.

Today less than 48 hours after the shoot I got an email asking for a refund as she couldnt imagine the photographs being any good, also that her husband was angry with her for getting it done. I called her and told her I would not consider a refund or anything else due to her not yet seeing any photographs processed or uploaded for her to view. The result of this phonecall was my bebo profile being publicly commented to by the mum with acusations of anger, bad manners and an unwillingness to refund her.

Due to the language used the bebo admin removed the comments and have kicked her off. Unfortunatly for me many others that Ive done work for or have been booked to do work for in the future have seen the comments.

I know I am withing my rights to deny any refund for the reason that she hasnt even viewed one photograph from the shoot at this moment in time. When they are processed and on-line I will reassess the situation after she has viewed them.

Something that surprised me is the fact that this evening my bebo profile has been filled with references from many clients from the past. References concerning my ability, my manners and professionalism.

The lesson I have learned today is that instinct and the bell ringing in your head should be listened to. I will probably update when the photographs are uploaded.

Danny

[LONDON808]

long as you have a writen contract and your work is on par with what she used as a refrence to book you then don't worry about it

If she thinks you should give her a refund explain that it's not going to happen o don't need it now is not a reason for a return in any company

as for social networking - it gives people the chance to share what they think - dosent mean it's the truth - if only every one could understand this then the world would be a better place
people semm to think they can say and do what they like on the Internet

As it's been said before if you wouldent do it face to face don't do it online

[Tomi Hawk]

To be honest, I'm not sure I'd even upload them for her to view .. at all.
Sounds like hubby thinks it wasn't necessary and wants the money more so.

Well, atleast they weren't nakie pictures of her .. now that woulda royally sucked ... ;)

[HappySnapper90]

To be honest, I'm not sure I'd even upload them for her to view .. at all.
Sounds like hubby thinks it wasn't necessary and wants the money more so.


But having a portrait session isn't like buying a blanket. You can't "return" 2+ hours of the photographer's time like you can by returning the unused blanket.

[lauderdalems]

Tell her to make her request for refund IN WRITING within 3 days. Then offer her 1/2 refund, but be sure and tell her that those pictures are some of the best you have ever seen. Of course, do not allow her to ever see them. The only reason I say offer the 1/2 refund is to get them off your list. Some things are just not worth it.

[Tomi Hawk]

But having a portrait session isn't like buying a blanket. You can't "return" 2+ hours of the photographer's time like you can by returning the unused blanket.
Oh no, I agree with the OP and those who say to tell the mum to .. "suck air" ..

People think that they can get out of anything today ..

I did a wedding once that was just fine .. nothing outta the ordinary and up to par with, and very comparable to my many other weddings, and yet the brides parents wanted a refund .. after talking with several other vendors that worked the wedding, including the tux place, the caterer, the florists ..

I came to the conclusion that they all went broke, and bit off more then they could chew. My contract, as well as the other vendors contracts saved us.

[Christina]

I'm sorry Danny.

I'm just confused by one thing - what were your instincts telling you? Reading your recap, it doesn't sound like you had any reason to be concerned until the kids started fighting. At that point you were already there, already set up and had already started shooting. Are you saying you think you should have stopped at that point? If the mom wanted you to keep going, she probably wouldn't have been happy with that either.

Considering that she attacked you with language strong enough to be removed by an admin, sounds like she would have been unreasonable no matter what.

Tough one. I think it sounds like you've handled it with grace.

[digitalphotocandy]

This is a tough one. We have a home studio and I have banned the Wii and the 360 from all of the rooms we use for business. Obviously mom didn't tell dad about the session and now that there is money involved he's mad as hell. Although I know you are correct, it is far better to just refund the session fee and be on your way. I know hindsight is 20/20 but maybe next time this would save your Bebo profile. Social networking is great, but London808n is so right. It's not always truthful. I would give her what she wants and get her out of your hair.

[MelindaG]

I don't know that I'd want to deal with a client like this. Even when you've put the time into editing her shoot she can still claim she hates the photos in attempt to get her money back, even if they're great. There's never going to be a great working relationship there, so getting excited about editing this shoot or working on custom products like albums or anything (if she even bothers to spend money on something she doesn't want and her husband doesnt want to pay for) would just suck the life out of me. I would also probably refund the money and explain to her that my time was sacrificed for her shoot which is why I dont normally give a refund, and then be done with her.

Good luck, I dont envy your position!

[zagiace]

you may have been doomed from the beginning no matter how the shoot went. Considering the mothers reaction to the kids, her outbreak on your profile and how the husband reacted to having their children s portraits taken you were probably going to have a problem somewhere along the transaction.

Chalk it up, some people suck and there is not a thing you or anyone else can do about it.
Put the images online for her, deliver what ever she was promised. Personally, I would offer her something to make her feel like she has won something. She can cause many more headaches then just a rude post on some social networks. Do what you can to get her out of your hair and try to be professional about it.

I would post them, tell her if she likes the images I will give her a few extra wallets, if she doesn't we can discuss a portion of a refund.

As painful as it may be the point of this is not to win an argument and be right in the end but is to do what is best for your business in the long run.

[leninglass]

Understand that this is business. Understand that customers will come first. They will be the one to feed you financially. Like MonteMomma said, Handle it with grace.

A few hours wasted wont hurt you. Give the refund. Don't even show them the pictures. Smile and walk away.

Anybody that gives you a "review" on bebo. Explain your position and that should be all that is needed.

=]

[IslandCrow]

That's certainly unfortunate. I'll tell you, though, when I read a customer complaint on a website that's obviously a hysterical rant (doubly so if the person is using profanity), I take it with a huge grain of salt. If it's against someone I've done business with and been pleased, it actually angers me, and I'm quick to defend the business and give my own positive experiences. There are always going to be people who will get upset, even if you're in no way at fault. It sounds like many of your other clients see it the same way and didn't put much stock in this one isolated complaint.

[m33p33]

Charge a sitting fee due 1 week before the appointment.
Make it nonrefundable without 48 hour advance notice.
Get a signed contract/invoice for these terms.
This contract must specify that the sitting fee does not include or negotiate the sale of any photos produced during the photo shoot.

Prepare a second - separate contract for the sale, licence and distribution of all photos produced from the sitting.

Then, next time, the husband will know his little wifey is spending money before you actually do any work. If Hubby steps in and puts a kibosh on things you have nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[RDKirk]

What I do and would do:

First: My fees are calculated to include a bit of "insurance" to cover a few "lost" sessions through return of session fees. I have a 100% satisfaction guarantee for portraits that I will return all moneies paid if my clients are unsatisfied, and I won't hesitate to use it...because I've covered the loss already. However, that amounts to less than one instance per year on average. My fee also covers a percentage of repeat sessions through the year.

If your initial instinct was to call off the session when it started going south, I would agree with that, and I'd have offered another session without cost.

I would also have refunded her money without hesitation. A policy of ready refunds is the best way to keep your Tums and Tylenol bills low. Just make sure your regular session fee covers a certain percentage of them per year.

[kayl]

Today less than 48 hours after the shoot I got an email asking for a refund as she couldnt imagine the photographs being any good, also that her husband was angry with her for getting it done.

Danny

Let's be frank; this is the main issue here. That's not your fault. Her hubby is mad about her spending the money and she's scrambling to cover her own butt. I'd upload the proofs and follow though on your part of the contract.

As far as Bebo - let your other reviews and work do the talking. If a future client cancels, inquire why - if they say the bad review, just explain the situation to them. You're not being unreasonable.

[zagiace]

Let's be frank; this is the main issue here. That's not your fault. Her hubby is mad about her spending the money and she's scrambling to cover her own butt. I'd upload the proofs and follow though on your part of the contract.

As far as Bebo - let your other reviews and work do the talking. If a future client cancels, inquire why - if they say the bad review, just explain the situation to them. You're not being unreasonable.
true, not their fault. However that is not the point. It really does not matter who is at fault in these situations.
I do not think the customer is always right. But like another poster commented, you build these situations into your pricing and when they arise you squash them quickly and move on.
You will never get the opportunity to explain yourself to potential clients.

[kayl]

true, not their fault. However that is not the point. It really does not matter who is at fault in these situations.
I do not think the customer is always right. But like another poster commented, you build these situations into your pricing and when they arise you squash them quickly and move on.
You will never get the opportunity to explain yourself to potential clients.

True- but now that the comments have been deleted off of bebo, future clients won't see them

[zagiace]

True- but now that the comments have been deleted off of bebo, future clients won't see them
If that is the only place these comments will show up then all is good. People who feel jilted, whether valid or not, are the loudest customers you will ever have. Would it be a surprise to find out the client has posted elsewhere?
It may take google a few days to lick up the scent but it may be a good idea to set up some google alerts. I have them set for my domain, name and a few companies I work with.

[captiva]

Thanks to all you guys and lassies who have offered advice and support. I invited a lawyer friend out to lunch today and just, hint, hint, mentioned the scenario in passing.

I have concluded that there are two areas of concerne that i must juggle in getting a satisfactory outcome business wise from the situation. Legally she hasnt a leg to stand on, and has in fact crippled any standing she might have had by her defimation on the networking site.

This in itself is not the main issue. Let me explain, my capture area is not that large and her connections to many, many others means that I have to be wary of 2 things. Her ability to continue to harass and bad mouth and her ability to damage my credibility by letting others know I will refund in this situation, letting others believe they too can expect refunds for no reason as well.

I have concluded that the less damaging outcome will be me offering to do her shoot again at a reduced price, or offering her credit towards another shoot if she is not satisfied with the finished photographs. Obviously, if they were the best photographs ever produced it will now make no diffirence as she has put herself in a position where she cant allow herself to like them.

Again thanks , its interesting to see the many diffirent approaches and actions that are being quoted. I will update in the next few days once my decision is made.

Regards Danny

[photoguy6405]

Something that surprised me is the fact that this evening my bebo profile has been filled with references from many clients from the past. References concerning my ability, my manners and professionalism.
I don't quite understand this statement. By "references", do you mean people making positive statements in support?

[RDKirk]

I have concluded that the less damaging outcome will be me offering to do her shoot again at a reduced price, or offering her credit towards another shoot if she is not satisfied with the finished photographs. Obviously, if they were the best photographs ever produced it will now make no diffirence as she has put herself in a position where she cant allow herself to like them.

Except that the husband has already said, "No," and not to your photographs (which he never saw) but to doing business with you at all.

Although it's true that women make almost 90% of the purchasing decisions for portraits and weddings, it's very important to make sure they understand what the cost commitment is from the very beginning. This is something most new photographers shy away from, fearing that they'll chase the client away if they talk money too early--they want the client to "fall in love" with the photography before they start talking about money.

But it's just as important, if no more so, to set the proper expectations right up front. She probably knows how much she can spend without consulting her husband--let her make that decision up front.

[ZGMF-X20A]

I'm not sure how much longer you'll get clients from Bebo. Here's a link to the news that AOL is pulling the plug on Bebo: http://consumerist.com/2010/04/aol-plans-to-sell-or-shut-down-bebo.html

[mikeassk]

I believe you have mentioned it already OP:

But the best way to resolve is not a refund but a re-shoot once the photos are reviewed.

That is of course if there is any relationship worth salvaging.

[freaking102]

seems like you did not complete the assignment before being asked for refund. why don't you just refund here the unfinished portion of the job? o keep good relations, in this case you should probably refund a bit more -- unless you are OK with burning bridges and being slammed by people on social network sites.

this type of situation is an example of why i don't do social networking sites in internet. too many loose canons.

[Mike R]

Refund her the money, so she'll stop trying to trash your reputation. When you give her the check, tell her that, while she saw the importance of the photos, it's a shame her husband doesn't want professional photos of their kids who will be teenagers in the blink of eye and the current moment will be lost.

[RDKirk]

Refund her the money, so she'll stop trying to trash your reputation. When you give her the check, tell her that, while she saw the importance of the photos, it's a shame her husband doesn't want professional photos of their kids who will be teenagers in the blink of eye and the current moment will be lost.

I concur. As I said before, her husband has already put his foot down--he has said he doesn't want your business, and there is no point in you trying to get a wife to act against her husband's demand--you're not going to win that fight. Refund her money and step out of the ring.

This is not the last time you're going to run into an unpleasant client. "Here is your money back, g'day to you, ma'am!" and go about your merry way--that's how you keep your own stomach acid in check.

[RDKirk]

I believe you have mentioned it already OP:

But the best way to resolve is not a refund but a re-shoot once the photos are reviewed.

That is of course if there is any relationship worth salvaging.

The husband has already said he doesn't want to do business. The deal is dead.

[sfaust]

I agree with those that would deny the refund. The sitting fee was for your time. You showed up, did what you stated you would do, she saw the proofs and 'signed off' on them as acceptable. If she doesn't want to go forward at this point, you both part ways. This isn't a product you can take back and resell. This is time you spent and can never recover.

Ask a plumber to take back his pipe, or an electrician to take back his wire, just because you changed your mind and see what answer you get :)

[handsfullphotos]

As a mom of seven, I'm surprised the mom is blaming YOU for her kids' bad behavior! I had a photoshoot last fall that was pretty much a disaster. My oldest was in a bad mood and would not smile no matter how much I tried and the photographer tried and my baby was stranger-shy and cried a lot. The photographer did her best, got what she could, and left after an hour. I decided to chalk it up to "real life" and used one of the funniest photos on my Christmas card. Sure, the photos were disappointing to me, but I figured that was MY fault for not preparing my kids better for the shoot.

Sorry this mom is being so difficult.

[DDCSD]

As a mom of seven, I'm surprised the mom is blaming YOU for her kids' bad behavior! I had a photoshoot last fall that was pretty much a disaster. My oldest was in a bad mood and would not smile no matter how much I tried and the photographer tried and my baby was stranger-shy and cried a lot. The photographer did her best, got what she could, and left after an hour. I decided to chalk it up to "real life" and used one of the funniest photos on my Christmas card. Sure, the photos were disappointing to me, but I figured that was MY fault for not preparing my kids better for the shoot.

Sorry this mom is being so difficult.


To a good parent, it's their fault when their child misbehaves or acts inappropriately. For a poor parent, its always someone else's fault (and not their fault, or the fault of their child). :lol:

[Butch Cassidy]

^^Plus100%^^ what He said !!

[RDKirk]

To a good parent, it's their fault when their child misbehaves or acts inappropriately. For a poor parent, its always someone else's fault (and not their fault, or the fault of their child). :lol:

And if the child does misbehave, you're likely dealing with the latter situation.

However, make sure that you have your clients follow these two ironclad photography rules:

Children must be rested and fed; dogs must be tired and hungry.

[zagiace]

And if the child does misbehave, you're likely dealing with the latter situation.

However, make sure that you have your clients follow these two ironclad photography rules:

Children must be rested and fed; dogs must be tired and hungry.

What a great set of rules.

[DDCSD]

However, make sure that you have your clients follow these two ironclad photography rules:

Children must be rested and fed; dogs must be tired and hungry.


Great rules!

[torvaterra]

If this were me, Id try to look at it several different ways - but by assessing the facts. You provided someone with a service that they agreed to. The person who agreed to it was present at the time of service and you performed your job. After the fact, the customer wanted a refund. Okay lets see here.

First things first are, did you have a contract? If so what does it state regarding refunds, turn around time, payment, and your services? If you didnt, what did you and her agree on?

Whether it was a contract or not, she obviously agreed to your service and then after didnt want it. She stated to you that her reasoning was that her husband heard of it and didnt want to spend the money. But the money was already spent, and the shot already done. Was he upset at the cost, did he not want pictures taken, or was there a reason why he didnt want it?

You did give them your time, but it seems that they havent yet received nor seen any of the images. One option is to get in contact with the husband rather than the wife. He seems to be the one that is calling the shots and might be more reasonable if he gets to deal with you directly rather than through his wife. He might be upset at her for hiring you, but you didnt do anything wrong by performing the shoot. It might not be something that you want to get involved in though. But if you feel comfortable doing it, it might be the best way to resolve it by dealing with the person who is really in charge.

Im not the type of person that thinks that the customer is always right. Of course I am reasonable but theres a line in the service/art/anything industry where you can be used. If she had gotten the images and then wanted to keep them (or seen them on your website, saved what she wanted and printed them herself at Walmart) but get her money back, Id say she just wanted a free photo shoot. But since she hasnt even seen them, it seems like the money - rather than the service you provided is the issue.

I would try to think of what your time that day was worth. If your service was a package that included your time and prints. Id reimburse her for the prints, since she didnt get any. If all she paid so far was for you to take the images, and then would purchase prints from your site as is, Id reimburse her only a portion of your time. I wouldnt offer a full refund unless your service was at fault, in doubt, or not satisfactory.

Bottom line is that she is at fault, but is blaming you and trying to cover up for whatever transgressed between her and her husband. Situations like this are tricky. In an ideal world every client is happy. But if she speaks badly about you for this. She isnt really bad mouthing your business. She is badmouthing herself for spending money she wasnt supposed/allowed to.

[Hogloff]

What I do and would do:

First: My fees are calculated to include a bit of "insurance" to cover a few "lost" sessions through return of session fees. I have a 100% satisfaction guarantee for portraits that I will return all moneies paid if my clients are unsatisfied, and I won't hesitate to use it...because I've covered the loss already. However, that amounts to less than one instance per year on average. My fee also covers a percentage of repeat sessions through the year.

If your initial instinct was to call off the session when it started going south, I would agree with that, and I'd have offered another session without cost.

I would also have refunded her money without hesitation. A policy of ready refunds is the best way to keep your Tums and Tylenol bills low. Just make sure your regular session fee covers a certain percentage of them per year.

Best piece of advice so far. Handling the sad situation as described above is what the Professional in "Professional photographer" is all about.