REsponsible for school photos sent without request?

[reelly1]

I have looked and cant seem to find an answer to this question. Recently we ordered a class picture of my five year olds kindergarten class. She comes home with with a photo package of three sheets. She has already opened them on the school bus etc. We see the pictures and kind of think wow we get all three sheets of smaller photos with class picture. Well then we get a bill since we did not return any unwanted pics. Are we legally liable for such photos? It is not about the $24 to me more about giving five year olds pictures and paper work to bring home. The pictures were done by lifetouchschoolportraits.com. They were great pics but kind of deceiving.

[lvidmar]

When I was in school...
I think we were sent with an order form to select which sizes you want to order. Bring home the form on "picture day" or maybe the day before, and you order the pictures you want. Nobody was ever sent with a "risk free trial" package that had to be returned.

"Free trial" = good
"Risk free trial" = shady

[zagiace]

Did you like them?
Personally I think it's great you get to see a sample of the final product and not just a thumbnail on a website. But I guess if you really want to push the issue you have an argument for not ever requesting them. Really why though? IMO it's not a big deal. If you like them pay for them. If not send them back. If a lot of parents kept them without paying I guess they would probably stop sending them home with the students.


Edit- sorry, I didn't read your post very well. I thought they were proofs. They upped your order without asking? Yea, that certainly doesn't sound right. I can say I have had my kids pictures taken by them and never had that happen. I think it was probably just a
mistake. What was their response when you asked them?

[tracknut]

I have seen this tactic as well in the dog photography business. It's certainly a way to force sales on folks, but I think it's a bit sleazy. I'd send them back, roughed up as they are, with a no-thank you, but I suspect you aren't even liable to send them back.

Dave

[gravy graffix]

Yeah it's a risk on their part to send home a small set.... They bank on the parents saying ...awe how can we send these back?

My kids have been used like this too... They lose paper work or what ever.

I can't stand lifetouch with using this bs tactic. But I can't argue with them. If a package is 24 bux, and if they have $1.00 in actual materials by having the extra prints in there I'm betting 23 parents are NOT going to send them back. It's a good profit risk for them.

[msfvirginia]

I wonder what the legality of having to send them back is. What happens when a parent figures hey free pictures and keeps them and doesnt send them back to the school. Its not like the kid signed a contract. :D

[Andrushka]

yeah i think the "terms and conditions" paper fell on the floor of the bus the day your kid brought them home :-)

if it bothers your conscience send them back, if you like them pay for them or just let it slip to the bottom of the pile.

In theory how would a underhanded photo operator collect on that? could they in reality?

[StellaBean]

this is how our school does their spring pictures. a form is sent home about 2 weeks prior and it says you'll pay nothing NOW. they take the pictures then send the kids home with the prints. you keep what you want then send back payment and any you don't want.

they use life touch also. frankly i think the pictures are horrible. i've been annoyed with the quality for years.

[Andrushka]

this is how our school does they use life touch also...

so its standard procedure for them... must be written somewhere that gives them some recourse against freebies.

You don't happen to know what the contract/T&C says do you?

[StellaBean]

dangit I threw it away just the other day cleaning out the paper pile. You have x amount of days to preview the pics. I honestly can't remember but I think there's something on the envelope the pics comes in about what happens if you don't pay or send back unwanted pics. the paper that arrived prior to photo day is mostly just to alert you of the date and to select a pose.

[reelly1]

Sorry guys been out and away from puter. Yes it says somewhere in not so obvious places on the folder that you can choose whatever pages you like and send back the others. But basically they sent out the largest package they were selling, I think it was four sheets. One was key chain pics that break out of the plastic etc, the others were wallet and maybe one size larger. Welll we paid for calss pictures and my daughter comes home with an envelope with the class picture and the other sheets. My mother was here when we looked at them. So grandma had to have a few. Anyway the folder was already opened like most of the kids will do to stuff on the bus. And then about three weeks later we get a bill for about $60 for the package we didnt return. We sent them back what was left along with a letter stating our thoughts of the kind of underhanded trick.

I know if we liked them, pay for them. ANd we understand they provided a service but come on handing stuff like that to elementary students and no explanation.

Thanks

[freaking102]

Sorry guys been out and away from puter. Yes it says somewhere in not so obvious places on the folder that you can choose whatever pages you like and send back the others. But basically they sent out the largest package they were selling, I think it was four sheets. One was key chain pics that break out of the plastic etc, the others were wallet and maybe one size larger. Welll we paid for calss pictures and my daughter comes home with an envelope with the class picture and the other sheets. My mother was here when we looked at them. So grandma had to have a few. Anyway the folder was already opened like most of the kids will do to stuff on the bus. And then about three weeks later we get a bill for about $60 for the package we didnt return. We sent them back what was left along with a letter stating our thoughts of the kind of underhanded trick.

I know if we liked them, pay for them. ANd we understand they provided a service but come on handing stuff like that to elementary students and no explanation.

Thanks

If someone sends you goods and you did not request them, you can keep them, and have no obligation to return or pay for goods. You are not legally obligated to pay unless you had an agreement.

Keep the pics and ignore the invoice.

[Old Coot]

The Federal Trade Commission agrees with freaking102

Enjoy your free pictures :)

[Pennington]

The group we contract with at the school I work for does this. I think it's shady. Send the packets home, knowing full well that half won't even make it to the parents, that parents will forget to send them back, etc. Then bill them for it.

On the other hand, all the ones they get back un-purchased get destroyed, which seems incredibly wasteful. I'm not fond of that, either.

But that's what you get when you go with a "portrait farm" group.

[Old Coot]

On the other hand, all the ones they get back un-purchased get destroyed, which seems incredibly wasteful. I'm not fond of that, either.


The group that does my school's pictures prints the 'proofs' on an envelope with the package descriptions and prices. The parents simply circle the package or packages they want and put the $$$$ in the envelope. When the prints are delivered, the parents get their order with the original envelope attached so they can verify their order. Since going with this way of buying prints, we have had very few complaints. But, we also have very few parents buying pictures.

[DunnoWhen]

I would imagine that, on your side of the pond, you have a similar law to our
Unsolicited Goods and Services Act 1971.


Under the Unsolicited Goods and Services Act 1971, (as amended) it is an offence to demand payment for goods known to be unsolicited, in other words, they were sent to a person without any prior request made by them or on their behalf.

[eigga]

Well, If I get extra money at the bank or something in my bag I didnt pay for I return it. If you knew you didnt buy it then it should have made you wonder. To me its not about the law but the right thing to do. I also dont think its a scam or underhanded "trick" Its they way its been done for years with school pics.

Hopefully, now you know the process. As a teacher that has to collect and account for those images through Lifetouch it sure is nice when the parents play fair. They give a lot of that $$ back to the school (our #1 fundraiser)

[Fernando]

Well, If I get extra money at the bank or something in my bag I didnt pay for I return it. If you knew you didnt buy it then it should have made you wonder. To me its not about the law but the right thing to do. I also dont think its a scam or underhanded "trick" Its they way its been done for years with school pics.

Hopefully, now you know the process. As a teacher that has to collect and account for those images through Lifetouch it sure is nice when the parents play fair. They give a lot of that $$ back to the school (our #1 fundraiser)

"The way it's always been done" is a weak excuse for these BS business practices. My dad used to love to say that the biggest difference between two people is their definition of fair (likely 35 years ago when I was sure something wasn't fair). They're the ones putting everyone in, at best, a bad position.

And just so we're clear, they don't GIVE anything to anyone. The school gets a slice of the [ill gotten] profits. Old school, pardon the pun, kickbacks. "Hire us, we'll give you a slice of the action."

The laws are out the, they have been for decades. You cannot possibly be saying that they don't know exactly what they're doing. They're playing the odds.

-F

[eigga]

:rolleyes: of all the things in the world to take a stand on. Glad I havent had any of those kinds of parents in my 10 years teaching. If you have an issue with Lifetouch or "kickbacks" thats your problem. I bet 90% of school photographers give something back - I DO.

Do you want me to take a picture of the front of the lifetouch envelope and see how CLEAR it is that they are proofs that need to be purchased ? - they even package the class picture in a different envelope if you purchased it. If you dont want it you send it back. Easy as pie.

Again, keeping something that you KNOW you did not purchase is not the way I do things.

Are we legally liable for such photos? No you are not

[MJPhotos24]

I don't like this practice on their part and was unaware they were doing it. Not sure it's done the same way around here, least it wasn't when I went to school or even when I coached, which this is the first year not coaching, but didn't pay all that great attention to how they did it. They did my senior photos and sent a sample of each pose with an order form, not just random package unsolicited. You'd think giving the order forms 2 weeks prior for usual filling out and handing in would work best and cut the cost in an elementary situation as there's usually only the basic one pose - or at least just one of each pose to select from if multiple - but guess if enough parents feel pressured to buy it works or else they wouldn't be doing it.

However, the most disturbing thing is that there's so called photographers out there that are just saying steal the product and ignore the invoice because you didn't read it through enough to know what to do or just don't like the practice. It's one thing to not like how they do it, it's another to then steal from them. Remember that next time someone hires you and tries to rip you off or steal from you because they don't like how you do something.

[reelly1]

Do you want me to take a picture of the front of the lifetouch envelope and see how CLEAR it is that they are proofs that need to be purchased ? - they even package the class picture in a different envelope if you purchased it. If you dont want it you send it back. Easy as pie.


Please do!

BTW we only received one envelope, the class picture is shown in a clear window in front of envelope and other pictures behind it.

[reelly1]

However, the most disturbing thing is that there's so called photographers out there that are just saying steal the product and ignore the invoice because you didn't read it through enough to know what to do or just don't like the practice. It's one thing to not like how they do it, it's another to then steal from them. Remember that next time someone hires you and tries to rip you off or steal from you because they don't like how you do something.

SO i can start sending pictures to people they didnt ask for and then it is their responsibility to mail them back or get billed for them? I think I will start going house to house taking curbside photos and mailing them to folks. And if they dont mail them back or pay for them they have "stolen" from me?

Doesnt sound quite right.

With that being said we are paying for what we used and I never said I didnt like the photos, we liked them. I just do not agree with the practice.

Oh and a side note the school is not giving report cards to those students that have not paid lifetouch or returned photos.

[freaking102]

However, the most disturbing thing is that there's so called photographers out there that are just saying steal the product and ignore the invoice because you didn't read it through enough to know what to do or just don't like the practice. It's one thing to not like how they do it, it's another to then steal from them. Remember that next time someone hires you and tries to rip you off or steal from you because they don't like how you do something.

It is not stealing to keep a gift. If parents hired photographer they would have signed contract before receiving pictures. In this case, the studio takes pics and sends pics to parents in hopes that parent might enter a contract to purchase. The studio has an interesting ploy that probably makes them money -- but any parent that keeps pics without paying is legally and morally right.
at least based on the story told by OP :lol:

[jeaniep]

I am "reelly1's" wife, first time on message board so please bare with me. I am responding in general as not to pin point any certain comments but feel obliged to respond since it was me who started this up roar b/c I'd like to know the laws of unsolicited, unrequested products. Thank you to the guy in the UK who responded, I am trying to research laws in the US that covers this as don't believe the school system has any right to with hold report cards from students whose parents didn't pay, let alone this company enforcing their shady business tactics.

For the one who offered to take a picture of the envelope and post, no thanks, I have it sitting right in front of me...nowhere on it does it specify that these are PROOFS. We ordered and paid for a class picture, the rest came in the same envelope. As first time parents with a child just in kindergarten, we have been adapting/adjusting to the norm...Lifetouch sent a proof sheet home in the fall of which we ordered from, for this spring we get the class picture and extra cute pictures, how confusing is that for parents especially the ones who work two and three jobs, did I order this, I must have, they surely wouldn't have sent all of this, etc. How totally irresponsible it is on behalf of this company to send all of this home with "elementary" students who primarily ride busses wanting to share their treasures with their friends?! What about the parents who can barely make ends meet, their child gives away stuff and the parents are liable to pay? It's not our case that we don't have the money, it's simply the principle of this company sending unrequested products home in such a deceiving manner that I must question their integrity and rightfully so!

I e-mailed my concerns to Lifetouch as we took one picture from one sheet and 5 key tags from another, turned in all sheets to the school and received an e-mail from Lifetouch that unfortunately they could not sell piece by piece even though it was their mistake in the first place for sending this package home instead of a proof sheet like they were suppose to do. It's not that they can't sell by piece, they are simply unwilling! As photographers ourselves, I would make any kind of amendments I could to remedy this situation, guess they are so big now that losing a few customers doesn't matter!

I have contacted the principal and board of education and if that bothers anyone out there, well, I can't help you. As I instructed Lifetouch to do and anyone else who questions the contents of this post, feel free to enroll at your local Community College & take a class on Business Ethics!

We have no choice but to pay for the items we kept, we certainly will not have our child singled out by not getting her report card at the end of the year! Again, extremely sad for the parents who were deceived and cannot afford to pay, what do you say to them?

[Fernando]

I'm assuming you're in the US, what state?

In Texas for instance, it's pretty black and white, regardless of what the school or any teacher may tell you. Basically they sent you gifts. How generous of them.

§ 35.45. DELIVERY OF UNSOLICITED GOODS.
(a) Unless otherwise agreed, if unsolicited goods are delivered to a person, the person:
(1) is entitled to refuse to accept delivery of the goods; and
(2) is not required to return the goods to the sender.
(b) If unsolicited goods are either addressed to or intended for the recipient, the goods are considered a gift to the recipient, who may use them or dispose of them in any manner without obligation to the sender.

[JoeyBowman]

That sucks to hear about all of this.

I do not know about your area but around here a lot of the local News Stations have "on your side" reporters that report stories about companies screwing over people. Usually it results in the company (or sometimes government agency, school, etc) settling the issues so that they do not look bad. Maybe this would be something to contact? If the school and lifetouch started getting phone calls from local media as to why they were doing these shady tactics I would think that at the very least the solution would be resolved for you. It may even result in the entire practice being eliminated.

[MJPhotos24]

SO i can start sending pictures to people they didnt ask for and then it is their responsibility to mail them back or get billed for them? I think I will start going house to house taking curbside photos and mailing them to folks. And if they dont mail them back or pay for them they have "stolen" from me?

Doesnt sound quite right.

With that being said we are paying for what we used and I never said I didnt like the photos, we liked them. I just do not agree with the practice.

Oh and a side note the school is not giving report cards to those students that have not paid lifetouch or returned photos.

It is not stealing to keep a gift. If parents hired photographer they would have signed contract before receiving pictures. In this case, the studio takes pics and sends pics to parents in hopes that parent might enter a contract to purchase. The studio has an interesting ploy that probably makes them money -- but any parent that keeps pics without paying is legally and morally right.
at least based on the story told by OP :lol:

Well you both cut off the first part that I don't agree with what they're doing and think it's a shady business practice to try and get people to buy. I don't like it, I would never do it, I don't get why anyone would do it as it seems to me to be cutting the bottom line by sending sheets instead of just a sample photo with an order form (watermarked of course). Reading the other post it seems like they just screwed up, but with others jumping in saying they did the same thing makes you question*** No way am I defending LifeTouch and this practice!

However, if I'm the parent buying (or not) I just give them back to the school because you're not mailing them in, though that's probably an option. I know when coaching there was a stack that was returned for closed eyes (which I can't explain in today's digital age), but they were not being mailed back, there was no out of pocket cost to return them, you just needed them back by a certain date for retakes. Again though I don't know if they do this with everyone as back in my day (10 years) we got sample photos and not a large package to say yea or nay. If a kid loses them on the bus, or gives them away, that's not the same as just keeping them. I would not expect you to pay if that happened if I was them because after all, it's my own stupidity for having that business model.

Do you have to? Well no, there's no debate legally about unsolicited materials. I just think you could a LOT more good by sending them back with a letter stating why you don't like the business practices - including the being forced to buy them for the before mentioned kids in charge of taking them home along with it's a waste of money for them to print what's not needed, along with environmentally unfriendly (big issue nowadays if you haven't noticed so could get support for environmental groups because photo paper can not be recycled). Enough parents do it and maybe they change their ways. Actually, it's not a bad idea to ask around and see if it's nation wide thing, can you imagine how many people don't like it?

If I want to keep it, I'll pay for it...if not, I'll return it - an that seems exactly what happened, and there's just a dislike for the shady practices. Might not be against others morals, but it's against mine. Again though, if I haven't made it clear I am NOT defending LifeTouch!

***EDIT - After posting did some searching and it seems this is a very common complaint, it was not an "accident".

The report card thing happens in athletics to. I know a couple of the schools I coached at you did not get your grades until returning the uniform. That would be an interesting case right there, them holding the grades for something that is legally not right. My guess is the school loses as it's a third party, the uniforms are at least property of the school and they have more of a debate.

[Fernando]

The report card thing happens in athletics to. I know a couple of the schools I coached at you did not get your grades until returning the uniform. That would be an interesting case right there, them holding the grades for something that is legally not right. My guess is the school loses as it's a third party, the uniforms are at least property of the school and they have more of a debate.

Sure does. Back in '85 I accidentally held onto my baseball jersey (kept the football jersey on purpose but they never asked for that one). Instead of a diploma I got a slip of paper saying I would get my diploma when the school got their jersey. As you said, that jersey was at least something that belonged to the school and it was my responsibility to send it back...so I did.

-F

[lvidmar]

I don't think the photo issue and the jersey issue compare. The jersey is property of the school. The photos are (intellectual) property of the photography studio. Unless the school signed a contract to be liable for the not-returned images (which would be stupid with the state of public education budgets these days)

Curious though, if the prints are generously "gifted" to the child (who is legally unable to enter into a contract)... even if there was legal ground for the photographer to stand on to begin with, wouldn't it then be nullified?

Shady shady shady.

[eigga]

BTW we only received one envelope, the class picture is shown in a clear window in front of envelope and other pictures behind it.

That itself is MUCH more misleading and not the way its done at our school.

I must have (paid for these) , they surely wouldn't have sent all of this, etc

I guess that is the difference in the way I think, yes I have two jobs and 3 kids so Im pretty busy.

How totally irresponsible it is on behalf of this company to send all of this home with "elementary" students who primarily ride busses wanting to share their treasures with their friends?! What about the parents who can barely make ends meet, their child gives away stuff and the parents are liable to pay?

That is just not an issue, the kids are as responible as you let them be. 10 years K experience and my class has no issue getting things to and from school. Regardless if its an important note or pictures. We would never expect a parent to pay that said the lost the pictures or never got them, and refusing to give out report cards is just silly. That is a school issue not a Lifetouch one.

If you had to pay for the pictures and never got them or they were lost then I would understand your problem. That doesnt happen at our school...again if it does at your then the issue is with the school leadership IMO

[C-Shuler]

I dont agree with this practice from Lifetouch, either. They have done this for a very long time. They have 2 different practices:

In the fall, you have to pre-pay (sight unseen) for the portraits, which you then receive a few weeks later. Of course, they do give you the option for a retake if you aren't happy.

In the spring, they take individual photos and a class picture, which the class picture has to be pre-paid for. Then whether you paid for a class picture or not, they send home 4 sheets of the individual photo which can be purchased for $40, or $12 a sheet if you dont want all 4 sheets. There is nothing on the envelope that states anything about purchasing these sheets. However, there is a flyer that explains fairly well enough, which can easily be lost by the child or even quite possibly not inserted from Lifetouch.

My youngest daughter's school recently asked me if I would be interested in volunteering to help out on school picture day. I laughed when they said I would get free pictures (I think she was the only lady in the school office that didn't know I have my own studio). Yet I agreed to volunteer anyway. It was quite interesting to see them photograph 600+ kids (grades 1 thru 5) in approx. 4 hours with just 2 photographers (that's less than 2 minutes per child!). School portrait day is definitely not anything I would ever be interested in doing. There is no soul in those portraits. It's just a snapshot of their likeness. Which is why I'll never pay Lifetouch for pictures. And I wasn't even going to keep my daughter's free portraits, but I decided to anyway, as awful as they were, just because it was a few cents Lifetouch would loose because of it.

[eigga]

The top of the envelope " The Proof is inside"

The bottom " See your child in more looks - Proof Sheet enclosed"

Curious if they are all the same? The flyer does explain it in detail.

School portrait day is definitely not anything I would ever be interested in doing. There is no soul in those portraits. It's just a snapshot of their likeness.

Completley agree, but for some it is all they get.

[WMS]

In my opinion your grievance is with the school district as much as with Lifetouch. I would be inclined to contact the district office and ask for the name and contact information for there general legal counsel (this will normally get attention). Then I would discuss the mater in a cold dispassionate manner from the point of view that 1) my child was not able to legally enter into a contract, and 2) The this is a form of extortion being committed in the name of the school district. And that there seems to be good reason for a class action civil litigation. Depending on the answers I get that may or may not be a bluff.

Wayne

[jeaniep]

Seriously...not an issue sending a premium unsolicited/unrequested package home with elementary students, I can't wrap my head around that not being an issue, please explain if you have time. It's very much an issue with some of the parents around here whose children handed out pictures on the bus and now they have to pay the piper!

I have the envelope sitting right in front of me and on the very top front it says, “See it. Love it. Buy it. There is a clear window on the front and that is where I saw the class picture. You flip it over to open and at the top it says, “3 Easy Ways to “Reorder” Your Portraits”. No where can I find on this envelope that it states proofs are inside for purchase and there was no flyer/detail sheet explaining anything.

We are not accustomed to these processes b/c our daughter is in Kindergarten so being a very busy woman myself, sending money for this and that and supporting her school as much as financially possible, I felt for sure I must have already paid for these/they came with the class picture, I know…idiotic thinking on my part, nothing in life is free, I get that  I can certainly appreciate that every single one of us can multi-task at different levels, that is what makes the world go round so I’ll just leave it at that.

I have been in direct contact with Lifetouch and finally a representative e-mailed today, sounded more like a sincere would like to discuss this with you response instead of the robotic/cold response I received the other night, maybe b/c I am not letting this go, it’s shady no matter how you slice it. I called her back and left a voice mail, have a list of questions/concerns I would like to discuss, I have that right not only as a parent but as a citizen and I won’t allow anyone to make me feel bad about it.

And yes their environmental responsibility is one of my concerns as I researched today and found that shredded pictures are not recyclable due to the dye in the pictures, was anyone besides MJ aware of that? Ironic that we teach our young to be environmentally savvy and yet a school system contracts a company (who yes gives back to the school, I am all for that) but turns around deceiving parents into purchasing their products and being wasteful in the interim….

I can now totally appreciate the saying…opening a can of worms, seems like they just keep seeping out like snakes in the grass, that is only my opinion given this first sour experience! Thank you all for posting…even the debates, very eye opening from different angles and I appreciate ALL the views.

BTW, we are in NC, still researching contract law and for those wondering or wanting to comment…YES we have paid Lifetouch for these pictures, it's not about the $ for us, it's about the principle!

[JoeyBowman]

Seriously...not an issue sending a premium unsolicited/unrequested package home with elementary students, I can't wrap my head around that not being an issue, please explain if you have time. It's very much an issue with some of the parents around here whose children handed out pictures on the bus and now they have to pay the piper!

I have the envelope sitting right in front of me and on the very top front it says, “See it. Love it. Buy it. There is a clear window on the front and that is where I saw the class picture. You flip it over to open and at the top it says, “3 Easy Ways to “Reorder” Your Portraits”. No where can I find on this envelope that it states proofs are inside for purchase and there was no flyer/detail sheet explaining anything.

We are not accustomed to these processes b/c our daughter is in Kindergarten so being a very busy woman myself, sending money for this and that and supporting her school as much as financially possible, I felt for sure I must have already paid for these/they came with the class picture, I know…idiotic thinking on my part, nothing in life is free, I get that  I can certainly appreciate that every single one of us can multi-task at different levels, that is what makes the world go round so I’ll just leave it at that.

I have been in direct contact with Lifetouch and finally a representative e-mailed today, sounded more like a sincere would like to discuss this with you response instead of the robotic/cold response I received the other night, maybe b/c I am not letting this go, it’s shady no matter how you slice it. I called her back and left a voice mail, have a list of questions/concerns I would like to discuss, I have that right not only as a parent but as a citizen and I won’t allow anyone to make me feel bad about it.

And yes their environmental responsibility is one of my concerns as I researched today and found that shredded pictures are not recyclable due to the dye in the pictures, was anyone besides MJ aware of that? Ironic that we teach our young to be environmentally savvy and yet a school system contracts a company (who yes gives back to the school, I am all for that) but turns around deceiving parents into purchasing their products and being wasteful in the interim….

I can now totally appreciate the saying…opening a can of worms, seems like they just keep seeping out like snakes in the grass, that is only my opinion given this first sour experience! Thank you all for posting…even the debates, very eye opening from different angles and I appreciate ALL the views.

BTW, we are in NC, still researching contract law and for those wondering or wanting to comment…YES we have paid Lifetouch for these pictures, it's not about the $ for us, it's about the principle!

If youre in the Charlotte area or at least coverage area of WBTV 3 why not give them a call, let them put a little light on this story/practice.

[WMS]

Getting media coverage of a tax payer supported organization like a School board who is sanctioning these practices is an excellent idea.

Wayne

[eigga]

I will say this and leave it alone. You were not forced to buy something you had lost. You were not forced to buy something your child "used" up. You still had the option to return them. I would totally understand the "burn them at the stake" comments if that had been the case.

However, this is why most districts spend so much valuable $$ on lawyers. Wish people would get this passionate about things we really need in the school like funding, training and expert teachers. Take that to the local news.

The enviornmental issue is a big one. I could really support that side of the argument.

Seriously...not an issue sending a premium unsolicited/unrequested package home with elementary students, I can't wrap my head around that not being an issue, please explain if you have time. It's very much an issue with some of the parents around here whose children handed out pictures on the bus and now they have to pay the piper!

Its not an issue for my class. 205ish K students in my career and 2 lost packets. AND the parents were not required to pay.. AGAIN the issue I see in this debate is if Lifetouch decides to do this then the SCHOOL should not require people to pay that say they lost it. Lifetouch will have to include those losses in the process. From what Im hearing you say the issue is the school holding the kids accountable not Lifetouch, I know for a fact at our school they dont press the issue when they are reported lost.

This is all from the teacher side of me. I dont have stock in Lifetouch and would never operate this way myself. I just dont think it is as deceptive as mentioned overall. I would suggest asking why the portraits/group picture were together when you know its done different elsewhere (maybe that was a teacher trying to consolidate things) Maybe your flyer was missing and that would be a big problem to mention too.

[massspecgeek]

I know I'm late to the party and everyone discussing this has moved on. I found the thread by googling after my kids brought home Lifetouch portraits on the last day of school. I believe these tactics are underhanded and specifically designed to make it difficult to refuse the product, and I think parents should stand up to Lifetouch and the districts that enable their sneaky behavior. To that end I want to point out that Califonia law at least (in addition to TX mentioned earlier) specifically provides that goods supplied in this manner are regarded under the law as unconditional gifts to the recipient. This is clearly stated in Civil Code section 1584.5:

"1584.5. No person, firm, partnership, association, or corporation, or agent or employee thereof, shall, in any manner, or by any means, offer for sale goods, wares, merchandise, or services, where the offer includes the voluntary and unsolicited sending or providing of goods, wares, merchandise, or services not actually ordered or requested by the recipient, either orally or in writing. The receipt of any goods, ware , merchandise, or services shall for all purposes be deemed an unconditional gift to the recipient who may use or dispose of the goods, wares, merchandise, or services in any manner he or she sees fit without any obligation on his or her part to the sender or provider.

If, after any receipt deemed to be an unconditional gift under this section, the sender or provider continues to send bill statements or requests for payment with respect to the gift, an action may be brought by the recipient to enjoin the conduct, in which action there may also be awarded reasonable attorney's fees and costs to the prevailing party."

The section continues on to indicate that it also applies to mailed items and gives exceptions for mailed items that the recipient had previously agreed to receive (i.e. the old Columbia House music system). The only way that Lifetouch can demand payment is if they can show that the parents requested the package either orally or in writing. I am going to encourage our district to find another photography service provider and if they persist with Lifetouch I will be encouraging all parents to enjoy their free photos next spring as a way of persuading Lifetouch to change their business model. I hope anyone reading this in California (or other state with similar legislation) does the same.

[JoeyBowman]

These shady practices are just horrible and the fact that so many school systems are fine with it and seem to encourage/endorse it is just as crazy.

[images by Paul]

Around here, the student pays the photographer at the time their images are taken. They come to school with a studio order envelope that has either been mailed to or sent home about two weeks before picture day. Then the parents are mailed the proofs with the opportunity to purchase more.
I do know life touch handles it differently.

[PhotosGuy]

I'm assuming you're in the US, what state?

In Texas for instance, it's pretty black and white, regardless of what the school or any teacher may tell you. Basically they sent you gifts. How generous of them.

§ 35.45. DELIVERY OF UNSOLICITED GOODS.
(a) Unless otherwise agreed, if unsolicited goods are delivered to a person, the person:
(1) is entitled to refuse to accept delivery of the goods; and
(2) is not required to return the goods to the sender.
(b) If unsolicited goods are either addressed to or intended for the recipient, the goods are considered a gift to the recipient, who may use them or dispose of them in any manner without obligation to the sender. Isn't that a Federal law?

Maybe I missed where you signed a contract? So if they didn't include a postage paid envelope to return the pics, I'd tell them that they can come & pick up the extra images. Why should I pay to return what I didn't order in the first place? ;)

[eigga]

I am going to encourage our district to find another photography service provider and if they persist with Lifetouch I will be encouraging all parents to enjoy their free photos next spring as a way of persuading Lifetouch to change their business model. I hope anyone reading this in California (or other state with similar legislation) does the same.

Again, of all the things that could be done better in schools and all the things to make a stand for this is what you pick??

after my kids brought home Lifetouch portraits on the last day of school. I believe these tactics are underhanded and specifically designed to make it difficult to refuse the product

That is crap, horrible decision by the SCHOOL to allow that. Again the few people who have had issues seem to be mainly a schools bad choice. However, if you got the photos, didnt lose them and have time to send them back how hard is that? I dont like Lifetouch that much but as a parent with two kids in elementary school and a teacher I have never had issues with them sending home prints as proofs.


We have many more parents mad that they forgot to order the prints in the spring and missed the chance. Damned if you do...damned if you dont

[watt100]

The Federal Trade Commission agrees with freaking102

Enjoy your free pictures :)

absolutely true !

[massspecgeek]

Again, of all the things that could be done better in schools and all the things to make a stand for this is what you pick??

...However, if you got the photos, didnt lose them and have time to send them back how hard is that?

You don't know anything about my relationship with our school. This is AMONG the issues that I make a stand about. Do you have any idea what the others are? I didn't think so.

As for returning the photos, they were sent home with my kids on the LAST DAY of school, as in school is out for the year. They won't go back until fall. No opportunity to return in person. No postage paid return envelope. I don't need to figure out how to be nice to someone who is engaging is an underhanded business practice.

[jrosephoto]

You don't know anything about my relationship with our school. This is AMONG the issues that I make a stand about. Do you have any idea what the others are? I didn't think so.

As for returning the photos, they were sent home with my kids on the LAST DAY of school, as in school is out for the year. They won't go back until fall. No opportunity to return in person. No postage paid return envelope. I don't need to figure out how to be nice to someone who is engaging is an underhanded business practice.


I absolutely agree with you on this. I have five children in 3 different school levels. Lifetouch do the same practices in my area. Lifetouch is a disgrace, their business practices are sneaky and their photographers (in my area anyways) suck. All of the pictures that we received this year were horrible and out of focus. The pictures aren't worth keeping even for free. I guess that is what you get when you hire non-professionals...LOL. Lifetouch seems to have the market on school photography, at least until you get to the senior portrait level.

Personally I would not buy a school picture. I am a photographer and more than capable to take better photographs myself of my children. Not to mention more natural photographs. Lifetouch photographers are nothing more than herders, their goal is to get as many children photographed in the shortest amount of time. I personally can say though that I would not want to do what they do. Take pictures of 600 children in 4-6 hours. NO THANK YOU....

[eigga]

You don't know anything about my relationship with our school. This is AMONG the issues that I make a stand about. Do you have any idea what the others are? I didn't think so.

pay attention to details better.. my exact quote for your situation was... "That is crap, horrible decision by the SCHOOL to allow that. Again the few people who have had issues seem to be mainly a schools bad choice "

It is the schools decision when to hand them out so in YOUR case I would be pissed and its a bad deal...no other way to look at it. BUT if you get the pictures and have time to return them how hard is that? I understand people dont like Lifetouch...most people here can obviously do a better job than them. So, laugh at the pictures and then return them.

Lifetouch is a disgrace, their business practices are sneaky and their photographers (in my area anyways) suck. All of the pictures that we received this year were horrible and out of focus. The pictures aren't worth keeping even for free. I guess that is what you get when you hire non-professionals...LOL. Lifetouch seems to have the market on school photography, at least until you get to the senior portrait level.

So return them and do it yourself. Easy as pie.

[MJPhotos24]

I thought of this thread recently when joining a magazine/club that started sending me unsolicited books saying pay or return. When I hit the road it was not of an immediate issue so put it aside, came home and realized they stopped my subscription until I do return it or pay for it. Easy to return it, they supplied all the packaging/postage/etc. but thought it was LifeTouch shady. Good times, good times!

[eigga]

Ya Mike, but parents expect to have school portraits done.

Bottom line is if you were expected to pay for lost prints or not given appropriate time to send them back then its really bad business and you should be discussing it with the school. I dont think that happens often. If all you have to do is put the prints back in your childs folder and be done with it I dont see the issue.I think I have spoken my mind enough ...

[massspecgeek]

pay attention to details better.. my exact quote for your situation was... "That is crap, horrible decision by the SCHOOL to allow that. Again the few people who have had issues seem to be mainly a schools bad choice "

No, that wasn't your exact quote for my situation. Someone needs to pay attention to details better, but I'm not sure it's me.

Here's the correct sequence. I said (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=10432004&postcount=38):

I am going to encourage our district to find another photography service provider and if they persist with Lifetouch I will be encouraging all parents to enjoy their free photos next spring as a way of persuading Lifetouch to change their business model. I hope anyone reading this in California (or other state with similar legislation) does the same.

And you replied immediately below a direct quote of the above text (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=10455049&postcount=42):

Again, of all the things that could be done better in schools and all the things to make a stand for this is what you pick??

To which I riposted (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=10461022&postcount=44):

You don't know anything about my relationship with our school. This is AMONG the issues that I make a stand about. Do you have any idea what the others are? I didn't think so.

And you followed with the non-sequitur I led off with (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showpost.php?p=10461022&postcount=46).

I'll let the rest of the audience decide who doesn't have a grip on the details, if they give a rats a**.

[massspecgeek]

Ya Mike, but parents expect to have school portraits done.

Bottom line is if you were expected to pay for lost prints or not given appropriate time to send them back then its really bad business and you should be discussing it with the school. I dont think that happens often. If all you have to do is put the prints back in your childs folder and be done with it I dont see the issue.I think I have spoken my mind enough ...

The title of this thread is "Responsible for school photos sent without request". You continually downplay the fact that many, if not most of us had not requested the photos from Lifetouch and so in at least several states there is no obligation on our part to return them. We are NOT "expected to pay for lost prints". The prints were not requested, are not lost, and are gifts to us under state law. If more parents stood up to businesses that use underhanded tactics, school districts wouldn't feel enabled to inflict those companies on their parents and teachers wouldn't feel compelled to make excuses for said companies. I bet Lifetouch would either mend their ways or refuse to do business with a district where most parents took them up on their offer of free prints, and everyone would be better off for the change.

And as for your disparagement of my desire to fight this, all I can say is that I regard the fight to keep corporate abuses in check to be second only in importance to keeping government abuses in check. And I'm not even a libertarian or a Republican -- I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Northern California liberal.

[MJPhotos24]

It's been awhile since reading this thread and honestly haven't looked at the latest posts all that closely as got work to do so writing quick on some points off the latest points.

I don't like what LifeTouch is doing, think it's shady at best. Yes parents expect their kids to have school photos done but they also are given order forms ahead of time for good reason - to order. No order form means no photos, kind of simple mathematics. When I do a kids photo and there's no forms I would never send them to the parent saying pay or return - it's an absolute waste of my time/effort/money if they don't pay along with a negative impact on the environment and my name as a small business. If they did pay then that's still not the greatest feeling, like I forced them to buy. OBVIOUSLY though LifeTouch must be getting enough people to buy because they are doing it. They are big business and it's about the bottom line for them, that's it.

It's why personally if I'm a school administer or someone with a voice (do have my teaching degree btw and have worked in a lot of schools), I'm pushing for a local company large enough to produce but small enough to care about the quality and offer better. When you deal with big business it's about bottom line, it's one of the lone reasons the local league picks me for their photos - local photographer, care about the quality, get to know the kids personally throughout the years because we're small town USA...sure there's things I can't do as a small business but they don't mind the tradeoff.

The school should be more concerned with this practice and not allow it, if they stepped in and said no and put it in the contract with LifeTouch it's the end of story at least at that school in particular. They need to do it, unless they are afraid of upsetting one of their "partners" where I'm sure they are getting a piece of the pie and want sales any way possible just like the big company does...again, bottom line is all that matters in many peoples eyes, especially today that even though the economy has gotten better it's still walking on ice and not solid ground yet.

If it happened here and I didn't want them, I'd return them and let my stand be known that they should at least come up with a system that can better suite people. I.e. why not (and they might) have a box on the order form to say "no photos". This way the people who return the order form with it marked do not get these photos forced upon them? Seems so simple, but my guess is they don't do it (correct me if I'm wrong please). That would at least cut some of the prints out that are forced of people who truly do not want them, just a start...

As for the last day of school, return them to LifeTouch's address if not wanted. Make sure you include an invoice for the packaging, postage due of course, and include time/handling charges. They won't pay it, but get the picture maybe and report it to the boss.

Talk about a long quick write, back to work.

[gravy graffix]

i think I replied before in this topic... but in reality... its prob costing them around a DOLLAR to print these and package it... add some administration cost in there and even then its NOT worth the time of sorting out whos getting photos or not... have have no idea of the volume they have for say even one decent sized town... but the logistics of singling out non wanting customers and the ones who didnt pay....right.... its a known LOSS to them and its factored into business costs. I totally agree with everyone that says "gifts" they dont have my CC# or my signature...

[MJPhotos24]

i think I replied before in this topic... but in reality... its prob costing them around a DOLLAR to print these and package it... add some administration cost in there and even then its NOT worth the time of sorting out whos getting photos or not... have have no idea of the volume they have for say even one decent sized town... but the logistics of singling out non wanting customers and the ones who didnt pay....right.... its a known LOSS to them and its factored into business costs. I totally agree with everyone that says "gifts" they dont have my CC# or my signature...

Have to say this is NOT correct. All photo companies get order forms and don't just work with one package, so the logistics is they are ALREADY going through the forms to figure out what people want and which package they ordered - in fact the info so far found online has LifeTouch offering up to six different packages. What LifeTouch seems to be doing is sending out a "basic" package to anyone who did not order and then asking for payment. This is not more cost effective to send it out than having someone marked on the "no order" list. If they were doing ONE package only, then maybe it would be better to just print everything and send it out unsolicited, however, unless LifeTouch has changed drastically they don't do this...their site even says so.

So in short, they're already sorting out the packages and who's who along with what was ordered - so it would be more cost effective NOT to print it. Also, given there basic package and thinking of the envelope alone it's costing more than a dollar. They wouldn't do it if losing money, so guess is most people buy from them instead of returning it or keeping it unpaid for.

[Gnhntn]

We get the paperwork about a week prior to school photos being taken here, and fill it out and send it in the day of the photos being taken. We select the package, and include cash or check to cover the amount listed, so everything is paid for upfront. When they come in we get what was ordered on the forms we filled out, and the photos we paid for. If something comes up we need more, or any other parent, we get in contact with the photographer (I live in a small county and everyone knows him by sight and name) and order more from him. He is contracted through Holyfield Photography for his work with the schools. I find it works really nice when done like this, and feel it should be done like this, where possible. If I remember correctly, it was a long time ago, this is how it was done when I was in school as well.

[natalieegbert]

My daughter gets the lifetouch pictures too and they do send home a whole packet with like 5 sheets and my thoughts are for one this is a waste of paper since if no one buys the photos they have wasted the paper, and second it kind of forces us to buy the pictures.
I had to buy my daughters since she started to cry since I wanted to send them back I prefer to take my own pictures and didnt much like the way she was smiling in them but spent out the 50 dollars to buy them to make her not cry. Im a push over.

[WMS]

My daughter gets the lifetouch pictures too and they do send home a whole packet with like 5 sheets and my thoughts are for one this is a waste of paper since if no one buys the photos they have wasted the paper, and second it kind of forces us to buy the pictures.
I had to buy my daughters since she started to cry since I wanted to send them back I prefer to take my own pictures and didn't much like the way she was smiling in them but spent out the 50 dollars to buy them to make her not cry. I'm a push over.

Which is why they use this marketing tactic, It works very well for them.

Wayne

[FELINEDEBOURGES]

I know it's a bit of an old thread, but I was looking up info about this, since this is what happens at my child's school, and they do Not use lifetouch. They use a local photographer called Cantrell Photography. I have sent back the photos every year because I don't need theirs - I take my own professional pictures of my own child with a natural smile, not a forced one.

[Emmy23]

I know I'm late to the party and everyone discussing this has moved on. I found the thread by googling after my kids brought home Lifetouch portraits on the last day of school. I believe these tactics are underhanded and specifically designed to make it difficult to refuse the product, and I think parents should stand up to Lifetouch and the districts that enable their sneaky behavior. To that end I want to point out that Califonia law at least (in addition to TX mentioned earlier) specifically provides that goods supplied in this manner are regarded under the law as unconditional gifts to the recipient. This is clearly stated in Civil Code section 1584.5:



The section continues on to indicate that it also applies to mailed items and gives exceptions for mailed items that the recipient had previously agreed to receive (i.e. the old Columbia House music system). The only way that Lifetouch can demand payment is if they can show that the parents requested the package either orally or in writing. I am going to encourage our district to find another photography service provider and if they persist with Lifetouch I will be encouraging all parents to enjoy their free photos next spring as a way of persuading Lifetouch to change their business model. I hope anyone reading this in California (or other state with similar legislation) does the same.



Thank you so much for that post! I live in California and this has just happened to me. They want me to pay for photos I never ordered. I do not want to repeat everything that all the frustrated parents already said but This is a disgusting thing that they do - to use our childrens images and make us pay in such unlawful and unethical way. I am just not going to pay and I am going to fight it. People should fight it! And to say that it is the right way because " this is the way they have done it for years" is the most stupid statement I've ever heard. It is why they do it, because they know that we will pay for it.

[ssim]

We did school photos for some small schools that lifetouch wouldn't travel to. They had up to about 150 students and we did exactly what the OP is complaining about. We sent home a standard package and you either bought or sent it back. We did however have the school send home a note with all students about a week before we were to take the photos and it explained all of details and procedures. We then included a similar letter in the picture package which explained it all again and how they could go about ordering more prints. Sure there were some parents that didn't return the prints or pay for them in the timelines we had hoped for but the school dealt with them on our behalf and in the end there was less than a handful unaccounted for. In the end it was a good thing to do and the financials worked out to be right were we thought they would. Some people don't like this reverse marketing but you are not on the hook for anything if you simply follow the rules, how hard can that be. We did this for a few years and then lifetouch decided to take on the smaller schools in our area. I can't say that I miss this shooting though.

[jokeruk]

Here's a question for you....

Why do you *expect* lots of people to put time/effort (because let's face it, it's not just about putting photos back into an envelope and sending it back to school - it's about dealing with the kids too) into *your* business without any recompense and without being asked (in fact, they were being told - this is what you *have* to do)?

[MidnightUK]

I am bewildered by Eiggas posts.

Surely adults/schools/teachers have a responsibilty to teach children decency in behaviour - and should not be openly condoning and supporting a sales policy that is frankly immoral, aimed to intimidate and in addition to that, makes use of said children as tools for extorting money from possibly very poor / uninformed parents.

How can anyone justify schools withholding report cards in order to help a private company make a profit? There are lots of ways for schools to raise money, that is not done in an immoral way. 'We get a cut so thats ok' as a policy is just not good enough. What sort of example is that to children?!

[S.Horton]

The Federal Trade Commission agrees with freaking102

Enjoy your free pictures :)

Never pay them a dime.

Don't waste one second talking to them or the school and just throw away all of their mail.

What they're doing is completely sleazy.

[Supersteve911]

My wife says I take better pictures of the kids so we don't get there pictures. We either toss em or send em back if we get some sent home. I agree it is a bad practice. I don't think we have ever been billed for lost or non returning pics but my wife takes care of that stuff. I just may have to keep next years just for fun and see what happens.
My wife's uncle did school photos through his OWN business and not Lifetouch which was a huge part of his business and I remember going over to their house once and the piles of pics all over wow glad I didn't have to help lol.

[kouman]

Or Just say you never got them. The kid lost the pictures on the bus. But they will most likely hold the kid responsible and you would most likely have to pay.

[WMS]

For those of us who live in California this might be of interest; California Civil Code section 1584.5

For a summery by the California office of Consumer affairs http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/mail.shtml Other states my have similar statutes, A search for 'Unordered merchandise State' will probably give you some resource information, I would suggest sticking to government web sites as they are more reliable than something someone has posted online (including this post).

WMS