Just part of the business ?

[Christopher Steven b]

Yesterday I received a call from a promoter who found my website and was requesting my services [shooting at a club] after his photographer cancelled on him at the last minute. We agreed on a fee and a duration; all of the details were spelled out in writing via email.

Just this afternoon he emailed back telling me that he found a photographer who shoots for a major publication (in a specific cultural circle) willing to shoot it for free and that he no longer needed my services.

My questions are: 1) is this something to simply expect in the business of photography in general ? 2) is club shooting in particular a--I don't know--sketchier area of photography ? 3) Aside from preparing batteries and doing a little bit of research about the venue I didn't really lose any work or much time, but I can envisage a situation in which I would have. What is the proper way of dealing with these sorts of requests ? ie. do you ever just get a sense about something and decline immediately ? what do you usually need to have manifested before you consent to shoot in such a circumstance ?

thanks a lot for any responses.

[zelseman]

You will be undercut by a free shooter or an incredibly cheap shooter in every area of photography. The only way to avoid it is to give someone a reason to pay you.

[m33p33]

Maybe this guy (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=858235) took your advice. ;) j/k.

in all seriousness the best you can do to salvage the job is to show up with the (promoters permission)
take lots of shots and hope the guy shooting for free screws things up. (Since the new guy isn't getting paid it shouldn't bother him)
Give the promoter a business card with a link to your watermarked proofs and hope he bites. If nothing else you'll get into a party for free and some fun experience shooting in a tough environment.

[Christopher Steven b]

This is interesting. Perhaps I wasn't being clear. My problem really isn't with free or incredibly cheap photogs or even with businesses[a promoter in this case] looking to acquire them.

The most annoying thing isn't even [though it seems to be] the fact that he basically cancelled an agreement we had. It is that it seems there is no way for one to avoid such circumstances. I say above that it didn't really occupy much of my time to put batteries in the charger etc. but upon reflection, it, the expectation to be shooting, really did alter the way I oriented myself--it occupied 'mindspace'.

[Christopher Steven b]

whoops--I was in the process of writing when you wrote your comment, m33p33.
haha. nicely done. I am serious, though, that I actually like a photographic community that has room for people at all stages of development. There's room for free and cheap photogs.

Good advice--I think I'm going to pass on attempting to work in this sector of the business, though. I've never encountered a client looking for me to shoot a party [at, e.g., a hall] who cancelled because they found a free photog. I do suspect it is a little more cut-throat in the club shooting scene.

[m33p33]

Hey, I'm with you on this one. But as long as "cheap" and "free" is out there it will happen.

I'll give the advice to the beginners in my area there is a welcoming community for free shooters in Toronto Canada :P

[Karl Johnston]

Yup, now comes the other part; negotiation. negotiation. negotiation. Differentiation. Differentiation . Differentiation . Uniqueness. Uniqueness...etc

Stick to your guns, sell yourself, be strategic,

when necessary...

Prepare a contract for someone wishing to acquire your services and then have them fax it back or email it back agreeing with a deposit. That may work in theory but depending on the circumstances may not work in practice. Just depends on the time frame. I often get what I'm accustomed to calling "call outs" for a gig.."how much will that cost, we need it done in 2 hours (shot, post processed, uploaded and emailed with license agreement + invoice)" - as a result there's rarely the time to draw up a proper contract. But it would commit your clients to paying you even if they cancel for the "free shooter" or "Cheaper shooter"

[Rubi Jane]

I've never had a cancellation but I do have a cancellation clause on my estimate form and in my agreement. It's pro-rated based on 72/48 or 24 hours notice. Might be a fight to actually collect but it sets an expectation with the client.

[sfaust]

A couple things that will mostly eliminate this from happening;

1. Don't consider the shoot booked until you have them return your signed estimate with a deposit.

2. Have a cancellation clause or kill fee in your estimate, and the amount of the deposit is coincidently the same or greater than the cancellation fee.

If they are serious about hiring you, neither of these will put up any roadblocks. Also, the better the client and the higher up you are in the industry the less things like this will happen. I.e., an Ad Agency isn't going to find a free photographer and dump you at the last minute, and an advance and signed contract is just the way business is done. Corporate clients pretty much follow this as well.

Also, the more unique and talented you are, the harder it is for you to be easily replaced with a free shooter. If a photographer delivers mediocre images that can easily be interchanged with most other photographers, then they are more apt to be swapped out easily. Although shooters that do have a unique style and skill can also be swapped out if the client doesn't see their work as anything different.

To answer your question, yes, this does happen a lot but generally at the low end of the industry, or with small businesses with first time projects that haven't hired creative talent before. Its is more rare the higher you move up the ladder since the clients are looking for unique style, excellent skills, are used to signing contracts, working off detailed estimates, cutting advance checks, and working in a more professional manner.

Once you move up, it won't be the free shooters you are competing with, but with other professionals that understand the business, have overhead to cover, and know what the market can bear. Its still competitive, but its paid vs paid, not paid vs free. Big difference :)

[HastyPhoto]

I have a feeling he will get what he pays for and most likey hes probably full of ****. He found a photographer who shoots for major publications to shoot for free? I dont think so. More then likey he found someone "for free" on craigslist whos trying to build there portfolio. So when this guy, the "free photographer" walks into this dark club and starts shooting at iso 100 at f22 with a SS of 5 seconds because he has no clue what hes doing, the guy who needs the photos done will be quickly introduced to karma.

[tomd]

I agree with Stephan, especially #1. A non refundable deposit will solve most of this. The promoter hired you, and kept looking for a better deal. With a deposit he/she would have stopped looking.

[Hogloff]

I have a feeling he will get what he pays for and most likey hes probably full of ****. He found a photographer who shoots for major publications to shoot for free? I dont think so. More then likey he found someone "for free" on craigslist whos trying to build there portfolio. So when this guy, the "free photographer" walks into this dark club and starts shooting at iso 100 at f22 with a SS of 5 seconds because he has no clue what hes doing, the guy who needs the photos done will be quickly introduced to karma.

Your assumption here is that the more a photographer charges the better he is. I know for a fact this is not true as I have been burned. There are many very talented hobbyist that are willing to shoot just for the fun of it that produce outstanding images.

[images by Paul]

Had a wedding who's guests all came in from Italy. The mother of the bride asked (in the cocktail hour) that I do family shots of everyone because it might be the last time anyone sees them. So, during the reception, I set up sort of a mini studio and proceeded to shoot about 120 guests.
The mother then asked me to prepare for 8x10's of all them and that she would purchase them from me. So, like the fool I am, did all the editing, cropping and perfecting of the images only to find out that she had changed her mind. Life sucks sometimes but I had no contract, no agreement, basically, nothing to stand on.

[sspellman]

A 50% no-refundable deposit via PayPal required to confirm schedule is the simplest tool to reduce bad clients.

[spikeystitch]

Club shooting is definitely a cut throat part of the industry. I have tons of friends that are promoters but I know all to well that free is the price their looking for. A lot of the time, quality isn't what promoters are looking for, they just want coverage of their event more then anything. Another thing promoters will do is stick with their inner circle before looking for people to hire. The payment is usually bartered in the form of free drinks, tickets and other sorts of external promotion to the photog.

[Frugal]

So, like the fool I am, did all the editing, cropping and perfecting of the images only to find out that she had changed her mind. Life sucks sometimes but I had no contract, no agreement, basically, nothing to stand on.

Agreements don't have to be overly complicated. A simple "payment for prints is due when you order them" would work. I don't do much editing before I receive that payment.

[cdifoto]

Your assumption here is that the more a photographer charges the better he is. I know for a fact this is not true as I have been burned. There are many very talented hobbyist that are willing to shoot just for the fun of it that produce outstanding images.

That's usually true if the free shooter can just do whatever he wants with no obligations during or after. When he has to get certain images and/or deliver within a time frame, he'll realize it's not just for fun anymore.