Wedding Lighting

[beaconlightboy]

Hello all, i have been asked by a friend to shoot their wedding as they are kind of low budget and i have had a 10D for quite a while with a 550EX. I am just upgrading to a 20D. i do understand the basic photography concepts however multiple lighting situations i seem to have a bit of dificulty with.

i am thinking about buying 2 more 550EX's so that i will have 3 total. one off shoe (fill) , 1 for a main, and a spare.

my question is what is the best setup to use? i'm sure its all relative to skill and preference but i have heard so many things. i have listed some things i've heard, as well as some questions. any information anyone could provide would be quite helpful. thanks in advance.

===what i've read/heard ===

1) never use more than one light in a church. use your single light as fill one stop below incident reading.

2) dont use umbrellas use sto-fen bounces

3) measure flashes with meter (incident) for f-stop

=== my questions ====

1) if using a flash, i have been told that the f-stop is all that matters and you just put the camera in manual. if that be true, then howcome you can set the flash exposure in manual? if you can set the flash exposure in manual, then doesnt that mean the camara is still metering for you in manual?


2) based on question 1, if i have two 550Ex's. do i need to take an incident reading? can't i set the 20d in manual mode, set the ratio on the flashes, then take a flash reading off something neutral, and step it down if i have to?

3) in a multi-light setup. for instance 1 flash on the camera, one to the side. when taking a meter reading, you obviously take one on each flash to verify the readings are in fact different by the stoppage you want, but what do you set your camera to? the lower f-stop (i.e larger number) or do you take a joint reading of both flashing and use that.?

[beaconlightboy]

about question 1.. the reason i ask this is because i have taken pictures of brides before based on incident reading and burned the dress. don't really understand how that happens, but wouldnt adjusting the flash exposure help that?

[idofotos]

you might be trying to hard, instead of buying 2 more 580's get one good white lightning mono and an umbrella and a digitalcalabration target, the one light will give you consistan exposure, try to get f5.6-f8 f8 is best for groups, the brides dress will usually blow out you can under expose so it doesnt but then you will need to do a levels adjustment on the files, read up on histograms and learn to use them, for weddings I highly recomend shooting raw, its a little more work but a wedding is a job just like anything else, I shoot the target under the flash and try to get a good exposure when the bride is in the photo change the exposure so the dress isnt blinking in the highlights, when the groomsmen are in you might open up a little to comp for the dark tuxes, remember good skintones are more important than seeing detail in the dress, dont try to blow them out but be more aware of faces, I would be glad to help more if needed you can email me
at dennisatidofotos.com use @ where aplicable. also with raw you can make a few more major corrections , the fstop is not all that matters but get it right and then control the room light with the shutterspeed, when shooting film I always used a slow shutter speed so the ambient light would absorb to the film but with igital I dont like the color cast I get so I have started using the higher shutterspeeds, its hard to give a lighting class on the computer but will try to help as much as possible

[beaconlightboy]

thanks for the info. i have done some basic photo shoots with one light/umbrella setup. i aimed it straight at the subjects, i know its flat light. anyway what struck me as odd was that even with the incident meter reading F8 and me setting the camera @ F8 i still burned the subjects? did i miss something? wouldnt it just be better to measure a reflective reading..?

[tim]

You might like to read this thread (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=75678) I recently wrote after doing my first wedding. For a first wedding, unless you're quite experienced and your friends are VERY organised and reliable, I suspect using a single flash would be a better idea. Using a single studio monolight is going to add to your setup and pulldown times, and you'll probably need an assistant if you use more than one on-camera flash. You should probably have an assistant for your first wedding anyway, my girlfriend helped me out.

Your questions, remember i'm not an expert on multiple flashes, I just know what i've read. Actually your question can be answered by one explaination: since you're using ETTL just set your f-stop, ETTL will flash at the right power for you. Use FEC if it gets it a bit wrong. You set the ratio on the master flash, I understand, and the scene is automatically exposed for you.

Whatever you decide, practice Practice PRACTICE! Practice with friends in the dark in dark clothes, with people in white clothes, mixed light and dark clothes, using a single flash on camera, etc, etc. You don't want to be learning at a wedding!

[tbfoto]

You do need to have backup equipment. Two of everything is the rule. Set your camera on "M". White balance to flash. Set your camera for 1/60th and f8. This will let the flash unit do all the thinking for you. Use just one 550 flash but do use a flash bracket. Shoot some test shots before the event starts to double check your exposure. Think ahead as to where you want to be standing for each shot. Once the wedding starts ..things go pretty fast so you have to be ready. Good luck and ...try to relax.


Tom

[tim]

Backup equipment for one wedding... that'd be taking on the cost so your friends can save money. For a professional photographer, backup equipment is essential though. Perhaps hire, or borrow one from a friend for the wedding?

Take lots of batteries.

[AjP]

don't complicate things, first of all I agree you need a back up just in case, one 580 is suficiant, just bounce light, don't use direct flash, check places where you gonna shoot wedding, take several test shots, check what are the best settings, and definately shot RAW. don't try to bring whole photo studio to church, there is no need. Good luck!!!!

[robertwgross]

Wedding lighting can get stressful if you let it.

My partner and I nearly always shot the main photography with a single flash on a flash bracket. The exception is when there was a large family group, like twenty people in one or two rows. For that, we would use two flash units.

---Bob Gross---

[tim]

Wedding lighting can get stressful if you let it.

My partner and I nearly always shot the main photography with a single flash on a flash bracket. The exception is when there was a large family group, like twenty people in one or two rows. For that, we would use two flash units.

---Bob Gross---

So you use one or at most two on-camera flash units for a whole wedding Bob? No messing around with studio strobes?

[robertwgross]

The other guy, who uses Nik** camera equipment, uses mostly one or sometimes two big flash units, radio sets, cables, batteries, flash meters, and all sorts of stuff to make it difficult.

Since I am a Canon guy, I use the Canon wireless flash system. Most of the time, I use a 550EX on a flash bracket. If it is a very wide shot, I will stick the 550EX out on the left, and stick the 420EX out on the right, and then stick the STE2 on the camera. That's all.

---Bob Gross---

[tim]

Interesting. Do you ever or often think you could make a better picture with strobes, given the setup/takedown overheads?

[MSRphoto]

Interesting indeed. I have always used TWO white lightening Ultras -- occassionally just one WL off left and one camera flash (on bracket) as fill if the groups aren't too large. The strobe off left always firing away from people into umbrella.

Of course I never owned a digital camera until last month either lol

I am anxious to cut down my "studio lights" at weddings, but I don't know that I'll eliminate both. Probably just the "fill" strobe and replace umbrella with soft box (?)

This brings me to my point .. the Canon 580 flash .. WOWZA! It arrived yesterday, and after playing around (which means I didn't read the manual, I just turned it on MASTER, ETTL, and pushed the shutter) I discovered that this flash has some serious power. Turns out that I can be in a COMPLETELY dark room where I can't even SEE the subject at ALL, the infared will focus the 20D (another amazing point to me), and the resulting flash shot will look normally and perfectly lit...no signs of "flash picture"

Of course the kids are now blind.

I have no intention of incorporating the digital into my business until I know what I'm doing (maybe next season) but I have to say ... this is AWESOME.

Oh ..another good way to shoot wedding groups ... take them outside and then you can FORGET the strobes! (have a good fill on flash bracket)

[beaconlightboy]

hey, great responses guys.. bloo dog, what i meant was that i have taken pictures of other brides at weddings and used F8 and F11 respectively with two flash units slaved equadistant from the bride and groom. i then set the camera for F8 and burned the bride. that i what confused me. did i do something wrong? shouldn't setting the Fstop at the brightest flash point prevent such a thing?

[beaconlightboy]

so the question really is. if you have 1 flash measuring F8 and another F11. do you need to take a new reading with the combined lighting? take a 100 watt bulb and put a 75 watt bulb next to it. is it brigher? or is there just more of the same light? seems to be brighter to the eys (perception) but is it really?

[robertwgross]

Interesting. Do you ever or often think you could make a better picture with strobes, given the setup/takedown overheads?

What overheads?

---Bob Gross---

[beaconlightboy]

Interesting.. but as a general rule of thumb, there should be no reason that i should have stop down any further than the incident meter read correct.

my logic .. and please correct me if i'm wrong. is that the reflected light from the bride will never measure higher than the light source directed at the meter?

[tim]

What overheads?

---Bob Gross---

I assume with studio lights it will take more time to get the lights out, put them on stands, set up umbrellas, and plug them in. I think i'd like the results with studio lights better, but the setup/teardown time might be annoying. I just wonder if it'd be any or much worse than using a couple of 580EX's.

I might want to have studio lighting for home anyway.

[robertwgross]

In my opinion, studio lighting belongs in the studio, and portable lighting (e.g. Speedlites) belong "on the run."

---Bob Gross---

[Titus213]

... I never really understood the chemistry of fabrics. By the time I began asking myself why some wedding dresses looked like Sci-Fi garb when they were photographed, I was shopping for my last piece of wedding photography equipment--- a flame thrower.

For further reading:

Fil Hunter and Paul Fuqua, "Light--- Science and Magic." Second edition
Focal press, Boston, 1997 p. 36-44

I've learned more about flash photography and it's practical applications from you and Scott than I could ever imagine. I am currently in the market for a flame thrower and a copy of the recommended book. Amazon carries the book. Any suggestion for the other equipment?:lol:

[beaconlightboy]

Bloo Dog, love the info.. if you don't mind i would love to pick that photography portion of your brain a bit more. Other than sheer skill (which i admit i don't have yet), how does a rooky like me roam about using just fill flash in the right amounts. The wedding photographer who shot my wedding used only an on camera flash and seem to use natural lighting as an ally. the shots were absolutely amazing and full of detail. Obvouisly you cannot meter your on camera flash if you're carrying that sucker around with you. so how do you recommend i meter fill flash? The guy never metered anything either.. at least i never caught him doing it.

your thoughts.. i am eagerly pressing f5 ... repeatedly..

[tim]

In my opinion, studio lighting belongs in the studio, and portable lighting (e.g. Speedlites) belong "on the run."

Sounds reasonable Bob. I'd quite like to end up with 3 or 4 lights that could be triggered out of the line of sight, though i'll probably go with 2 speedlites and maybe another as a transmitter to start with. I could add an ebay transmitter unit later and a couple of vivitars perhaps.

[tim]

That's my thought too. There's just no time to fool with studio equipment in a church.

Churches aren't big for weddings here, maybe 40% of weddings are in a church. Indoor weddings are common enough though. Portability is probably important for that, so speedlites on a stand is a good plan, I can use them outside too. I'd rather be able to use umbrellas or something to increase the size of the light source - are something like small silver umbrellas worthwhile buying? Or am I wasting my money on that? I will do some portraits in more controlled situations too.

I'm still undecided on vivitar vs Canon/Sigma units. I want a 580 anyway, i'd use my current 550 as a backup at weddings, then I could get a Sigma 500 as a slave and use the Canon wireless system. Having ETTL-II and a few lights would be handy, especially when i'm in a hurry. The other option is getting a couple of Vivitar units, ebay radio slaves, and treating them like small studio lights - though I might need a light beter. Opinions?

[beaconlightboy]

How does the canon speedlight know you want only fill? wouldnt it shoot the frame for full flash exposure?

[robertwgross]

How does the canon speedlight know you want only fill? wouldnt it shoot the frame for full flash exposure?

Yes, and that is why a plain 420EX gets somewhat limiting. The 550EX and 580EX units give you a lot more control on light.

With some cameras, you can dial down the flash from the camera end, but only so far.

If your flash has a manual mode, then you can set it for anything like 1/16th power.

---Bob Gross---

[beaconlightboy]

If your flash has a manual mode, then you can set it for anything like 1/16th power.
---Bob Gross---


yes but that still requires a meter reading yes? if i am outside in a partially lit area and my subject needs fill lighting, how would i know what manual setting to use with out a meter read? the camera may tell you the shutter speed and F stop, but it deosnt tell you how powerfull the flash output will be.

does this make sense?

[robertwgross]

yes but that still requires a meter reading yes? if i am outside in a partially lit area and my subject needs fill lighting, how would i know what manual setting to use with out a meter read? the camera may tell you the shutter speed and F stop, but it deosnt tell you how powerfull the flash output will be.

does this make sense?

Not exactly.

If you set a 550EX flash to manual power at 1/16th, then that is a consistent amount of light that does not vary with ambient light, camera metering, or anything else.

If you are outside and want to use fill, you can get there by any of a few ways. You can dial down the flash by FEC at the camera, or you can dial down the flash by FEC at the flash unit, or you can simply set the manual flash power to be 1/16th or 1/8th or whatever you choose. But, the operator must choose. The choice may be helped by an external meter, past shots, or photographer's gut instinct.

---Bob Gross---

[Huckaback Photo]

A great deal of good info in this thread.
My advice is take on board the various tips that suit your needs and test them out yourself at each venue prior to the actual shoot. this is not always possible with churches .
its easy to get to complicated or confused, when you have to control the guests, arrange the shots, etc. etc.
simplicity is often the best plan . start out with just 1 flash on a bracket this works well for fill in
outdoors and interior use if theres a chance you can bounce the light off walls or ceilings (in smaller rooms) fine, in a church say down the aisle direct (bracket mounted) may be the only way,
and if a long ( say 15th/ 30th/ 60th ) shutter speed is used the flash can be ballanced for the ambient lighting inside the church and therefore better detail to interior of building etc. the flash exposure is taking care of the bride & groom but does not have to light the entire interior.

The idea of using studio flash units within a church or around lots of guests/people needs very carefull planing ,I have once seen a studio flash go bang in a big way, not good, just think about it !
About 18 months ago I shot a wedding in mainland Greece, a Greek orthodox church, the local photographer had in fact set up 4 studio flash heads on 12ft high stands with the slave sensors set in some flower arrangements, all seemed fine until I also started to shoot with flash and of course also had the benefit of his lights firing each time i shot, i had to shoot without flash after that, all walls were covered gold icons etc.and very low light levels.
I threw this in just to say be prepared for anything.
and as mentioned above back up all you can. equipment wise , if you own a 550 ex get a second one, if its the 580ex match it with the same do not get caught out with the different controls.
if you use any leads take at least 2 of each. if you think 12 batteries will do take 24.
now the camera, do not do a wedding without a second body , the same model is the way to go.
say 90% of the time you wont get problems but ??? things happen.
flash is not the only way to go, be prepared is all I'm saying.
Many years ago I shot weddings for a studio I only used 2 medium format with Metz / quantum pack etc.

Good luck
Martin (Huckaback Photo)