What's the xxD series for?

[kaitlyn2004]

Ever since the 7D came out, it seems the xxD series is in a gray area.

At least price-wise, it's placed between the T2i and the 7D, but much closer to the T2i.

At this point, what is compelling about the xxD series line?

[Grentz]

I agree, the 7D does confuse things.

But honestly I would probably not own a rebel at this point simply because of the control layout, so the XXD offers a cheaper alternative to the 7D to get the pro control layout.

I still rock my 30D even though I could upgrade to a rebel simply because the controls and feel works much better for me.

[harcosparky]

I am beginning to believe the 7D may signal the end of the xxD line.

People talk of the rumored 60D, but I think it is already here! :D

[Grimm75]

I highly doubt the above just from a competition standpoint.

[Jim G]

For those who don't want to spend the amount the 7D costs but like the ergonomics/size/weight of the XXD series over the XXXD...

[tkbslc]

At this point, what is compelling about the xxD series line?

For about the same price as a T2i, you can get a camera with a bigger, brighter viewfinder, more robust build, and faster performance in every regard.

[10megapixel]

For about the same price as a T2i, you can get a camera with a bigger, brighter viewfinder, more robust build, and faster performance in every regard.

I assume your talking about the 50D? I agree.

I see absolutely no reason why Canon would continue the xxD series after the introduction of the 7D. Alot of people are asking about the release of a 60D and I say it's already here...the 7D ;) Say Canon did release a new xxD body, then it would be safe to say that the intro price would be the same or more than it's predecessor (50D) at $1399 for the body only, not much less than what you can pick up a 7D for. I will say that at this point nothing would surprise me though, Canon may continue the line...who knows :rolleyes: I just think it will be a tough sell with the 7D so close to that price.

[SuperHuman21]

A couple hundred bucks makes or breaks the deal for the newbies that want to shoot for fun or are on a tight budget and can't fathom why they'd need the 7D anyway. I know because that was me almost a year ago, heh. (That is, from D40 to D90).

[krb]

Say Canon did release a new xxD body, then it would be safe to say that the intro price would be the same or more than it's predecessor (50D) at $1399 for the body only, not much less than what you can pick up a 7D for.
I don't see anything safe about your assumption. If a 60D is released, it is more likely be a little cheaper than its predecessors have been at their introductions. A 50D with the movie mode and image sensor from the T2i for about $100 more than a T2i could sell without harming 7D sales, I believe.

[10megapixel]

I don't see anything safe about your assumption. If a 60D is released, it is more likely be a little cheaper than its predecessors have been at their introductions. A 50D with the movie mode and image sensor from the T2i for about $100 more than a T2i could sell without harming 7D sales, I believe.

Why would it be cheaper? All the xxD series bodies ( Since the 20D) have either been the same price or $100 more than it's predecessor. You actually think Canons going to make a sudden change in pricing with a 60D... I doubt it.

A T2i is $800 bucks, so your saying $100 bucks more than that for the 60D right? A new 60D for $ 900 bucks...It would be nice but it's NEVER gonna happen.

[400dabuser]

For about the same price as a T2i, you can get a camera with a bigger, brighter viewfinder, more robust build, and faster performance in every regard.


I agree, before I bought my 50D, I thought that the 7D was way beyond my budget, I wanted to fit in a lens or two, plus flash gun, and tripod

[MrWho]

It's for people who don't have the money to dish out for the 7D, don't need the advanced/complicated AF system, and don't need the features the 7D have.

Besides, the 60D being released is already all but confirmed, rumors of it heading to production soon are out and a tech confirmed there will be a 60D :)

[10megapixel]

Besides, the 60D being released is already all but confirmed, rumors of it heading to production soon are out and a tech confirmed there will be a 60D :)

Yea, my sisters friend has a cousin who knows a guy who's friends with a lady that used to work for Canon but she still knows a guy who's super good friends with the nephew of a current tech at the company who said there's definitely going to be a 60D. I'm pretty sure he let everyone over at "Canon Rumors" know about it. ;)

[TeamSpeed]

^ Hey, I think my dad's boss has a cousin whose neighbor knows that very same tech, small world!

[krb]

Why would it be cheaper? Because there is now a 7D on the table.

The 40D and 50D were cheaper and less capable competitors to the D300. Now that the 7D is available the xxD series can be a slightly more expensive and much more capable competitor to the D90.

[10megapixel]

Because there is now a 7D on the table.

The 40D and 50D were cheaper and less capable competitors to the D300. Now that the 7D is available the xxD series can be a slightly more expensive and much more capable competitor to the D90.

It might be the same price as the 50D if it appears, and possibly slightly cheaper...but still, there is no way it's going to be around the 1K mark. The 7D's are already dropping in price, making it more difficult to squeeze a camera between it and a 50D.

[krb]

It might be the same price as the 50D if it appears, and possibly slightly cheaper...but still, there is no way it's going to be around the 1K mark. The 7D's are already dropping in price, making it more difficult to squeeze a camera between it and a 50D.
I think you meant "...between it and a T2i." The 7D has a small rebate available but base price has not changed. There's plenty of room for a 60D in the $1000-$1200 range.

[10megapixel]

I think you meant "...between it and a T2i." The 7D has a small rebate available but base price has not changed. There's plenty of room for a 60D in the $1000-$1200 range.


Keep dreamin' my friend ;)

[krb]

Dreaming? You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am hoping to buy such a thing.

There are people who want something more than a Rebel but don't want to pay for a 7D and don't want to buy used. Canon can milk this market for the next decade by providing xxD cameras that are each a slightly warmed over version of the earlier model. I'm saying that I expect Canon to exploit this market, not that I'm planning to be a part of it.

[Josepi]

There's plenty of room for a 60D in the $1000-$1200 range.

I'd agree if it were to be a feature stripped full frame body, but that'll never happen.

[DStanic]

Because there is now a 7D on the table.

The 40D and 50D were cheaper and less capable competitors to the D300. Now that the 7D is available the xxD series can be a slightly more expensive and much more capable competitor to the D90.

I agree 100%. Canon needs to have a D90 competitor, which the 50D currently is a good option.

The 60D (assuming it comes out) will be a bit better then a D90, and cost slightly more but not as much as the 7D/D300s.

There are 4 Rebels right now (XS, XSi, T1i, T2i) and only one new "prosumer" body (7D) the aged 50D needs an upgrade.

[MARK1992]

Keep dreamin' my friend ;)

Not everyone can afford a 7D mind you. :lol:

From your signature I highly doubt you'll be interested in the 60D with your 1D and all that jazz, but mere mortals in the Photography World like me would appreciate a step up from a Consumer level dSLR that is competitively priced and is feature packed.

They have the hardware, they have the software, possibly spend a bit for advertising and maybe some adaptation to other production factors which I haven't thought of. If its another niche that they can leech money off us Consumefools, I don't see why they shouldn't.

I'm waiting to see what they can offer. I do truly hope it comes out in near the Grand mark.

[10megapixel]

Not everyone can afford a 7D mind you. :lol:

From your signature I highly doubt you'll be interested in the 60D with your 1D and all that jazz, but mere mortals in the Photography World like me would appreciate a step up from a Consumer level dSLR that is competitively priced and is feature packed.

They have the hardware, they have the software, possibly spend a bit for advertising and maybe some adaptation to other production factors which I haven't thought of. If its another niche that they can leech money off us Consumefools, I don't see why they shouldn't.

I'm waiting to see what they can offer. I do truly hope it comes out in near the Grand mark.

A 1D2N can be bought for hundreds less than the 7D, if any of you "Mere Mortals" are interested in stepping up ;)

A 60D actually on the horizon? Who knows...if they do then so be it, but any of you who are under the illusion that it's going to be priced not much more than a Rebel T2i are delusional.

[MARK1992]

A 1D2N can be bought for hundreds less than the 7D, if any of you "Mere Mortals" are interested in stepping up ;)

A 60D actually on the horizon? Who knows...if they do then so be it, but any of you who are under the illusion that it's going to be priced not much more than a Rebel T2i are delusional.

Maybe its not the price. Maybe they'd compromise image quality over a more compact and lighter body, should they go traveling quite a bit. Well I'm not a die-hard 60D fanboy, so don't hate me. I'm merely keeping my options open :lol:

[10megapixel]

Maybe its not the price. Maybe they'd compromise image quality over a more compact and lighter body, should they go traveling quite a bit. Well I'm not a die-hard 60D fanboy, so don't hate me. I'm merely keeping my options open :lol:

There's nothing but love here on POTN baby :lol:

[440roadrunner]

...There are people who want something more than a Rebel but don't want to pay for a 7D and don't want to buy used..... .

THIS


..... Canon can milk this market for the next decade by providing xxD cameras that are each a slightly warmed over version of the earlier model...... .

.....but I'm not sure I agree with your last. The 40D was a substantial step above the 30, and even the 50D, with video and microfocus adjust to some would seem a significant step, although just not I. I WOULD bet however, that the supposed 60D or whatever comes next, will be more than warmed over

I do agree though, that there are plenty (of us) who desire somethng between a Rebel and the 7D/ 5D and up class

[MARK1992]

There's nothing but love here on POTN baby :lol:

Glad that there is ;)

[MrWho]

Yea, my sisters friend has a cousin who knows a guy who's friends with a lady that used to work for Canon but she still knows a guy who's super good friends with the nephew of a current tech at the company who said there's definitely going to be a 60D. I'm pretty sure he let everyone over at "Canon Rumors" know about it. ;)

^ Hey, I think my dad's boss has a cousin whose neighbor knows that very same tech, small world!

Find the chat with a Canon tech on Reddit and enjoy the read :)

[10megapixel]

Find the chat with a Canon tech on Reddit and enjoy the read :)

I sometimes chat with supermodels online myself, I know they are because they say so.

http://img11.imagehosting.gr/out.php/i1376901_tech.jpg

[TeamSpeed]

I sometimes chat with supermodels online myself, I know they are because they say so.

You need to stop that hourly subscription service! ;)

[10megapixel]

You need to stop that hourly subscription service! ;)

No way! :lol:

[MrWho]

You need to stop that hourly subscription service! ;)

So HE was the guy at the internet cafe? Oh dear.... :shock:

:lol:

[CanonGarcon]

What is this numerology thing about the 60D. People want it because it's called a 60D and don't know what the specs of it will be.

Every day that goes by without the 60D means there is less of a chance of a D60D is coming. The 7D is the 60D. Even the Canonrumors.com dork said so last spring.

[TeamSpeed]

What is this numerology thing about the 60D. People want it because it's called a 60D and don't know what the specs of it will be.

Every day that goes by without the 60D means there is less of a chance of a D60D is coming. The 7D is the 60D. Even the Canonrumors.com dork said so last spring.

I will believe Canon reps over internet ramblings. So every day that goes by without the 5DIII means there is less of a chance of one coming? All you can do is wait and see what the next series of releases will be during this summer's announcements. And when was the 7D announced again? Last September, if my memory serves me well.

[10megapixel]

The 7D is the 60D.

Yep ;)

[CanonGarcon]

I will believe Canon reps over internet ramblings. So every day that goes by without the 5DIII means there is less of a chance of one coming? All you can do is wait and see what the next series of releases will be during this summer's announcements. And when was the 7D announced again? Last September, if my memory serves me well.

Where are the Canon reps statements on the coming 60D that you are talking about?

[CanonGarcon]

Dreaming? You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am hoping to buy such a thing.

There are people who want something more than a Rebel but don't want to pay for a 7D and don't want to buy used. Canon can milk this market for the next decade by providing xxD cameras that are each a slightly warmed over version of the earlier model. I'm saying that I expect Canon to exploit this market, not that I'm planning to be a part of it.

The people who say they can't afford the 7D are also the ones who will sell their Canon equipment and then go out and buy Nikon. Switching systems isn't exactly cheap.

[TeamSpeed]

Where are the Canon reps statements on the coming 60D that you are talking about?

Please search this forum. At the time of the release, there was alot of Canon news, including snippets on discussions with reps, on this line vs the xxD line.

[MrWho]

The people who say they can't afford the 7D are also the ones who will sell their Canon equipment and then go out and buy Nikon. Switching systems isn't exactly cheap.

Well to be honest it's going to be the people with Rebels looking to upgrade but can't justify the cost of a 7D very likely and if you're lightly invested the switch will leave the Nikon gear costing just a couple of hundred dollars instead of ponying up the $1500 or $1600 for the 7D. They could make the 60D $1100 or so and add video to it so it would if anything damage sales of the Rebel line more than push people to buy a 7D.

Why all the hate for the 60D anyway? If it's going to be released it's going to be released. The 7D won't become obsolete because of the 60D and with Canon's marketing department, considering they're marketing the 5D2 as a mother's day gift, will surely find a way to market it and empty more wallets.

(PLEASE Canon if you're reading this, release the camera already so we can see who's right!!! :p)

[CanonGarcon]

Well to be honest it's going to be the people with Rebels looking to upgrade but can't justify the cost of a 7D very likely and if you're lightly invested the switch will leave the Nikon gear costing just a couple of hundred dollars instead of ponying up the $1500 or $1600 for the 7D. They could make the 60D $1100 or so and add video to it so it would if anything damage sales of the Rebel line more than push people to buy a 7D.

Why all the hate for the 60D anyway? If it's going to be released it's going to be released. The 7D won't become obsolete because of the 60D and with Canon's marketing department, considering they're marketing the 5D2 as a mother's day gift, will surely find a way to market it and empty more wallets.

(PLEASE Canon if you're reading this, release the camera already so we can see who's right!!! :p)

$1,500 was about the starting point of the 40D and 50D when they came out. Canon is not going to be releasing a 60D for only $200 more than the new Rebel and they are not going to add a bunch of new features in a 60D either. Good chance there is never going to be a 60D (because the 7D is the 60D).

[MrWho]

$1,500 was about the starting point of the 40D and 50D when they came out. Canon is not going to be releasing a 60D for only $200 more than the new Rebel and they are not going to add a bunch of new features in a 60D either. Good chance there is never going to be a 60D (because the 7D is the 60D).

So Canon should just compete against the D5000 and D300s while having nothing at all to compete with the D90? Nikon's continuing the Dx0 line.

[TeamSpeed]

$1,500 was about the starting point of the 40D and 50D when they came out. Canon is not going to be releasing a 60D for only $200 more than the new Rebel and they are not going to add a bunch of new features in a 60D either. Good chance there is never going to be a 60D (because the 7D is the 60D).

Let's get the facts straight, since you are off by at least $100:

$1300 for the 40D
$1400 for the 50D
$1700 for the 7D

There is indeed room for a 60D right around the $1200-1300 price range. Canon has said themselves that the 7D is a new line. And since you like to quote canonrumors from a period long before the announcement of the 7D, you might be interested in the following:

http://www.canonrumors.com/category/photography/canon-60d/

I believe the 60D will have an articulated LCD.

[CanonGarcon]

So Canon should just compete against the D5000 and D300s while having nothing at all to compete with the D90? Nikon's continuing the Dx0 line.

The Canon Rebel T2i competes with the D90.

[TeamSpeed]

Oh one more page that speculates on the 60D, rumors have it that GPS will be built into the 60D, or in-body IS, due to recent Canon patents.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_60D.html

60D is coming, and with features not seen before, not much you can really do about it at this point... :)

The facts are out there, you just have to put them together, or just make 6 month old arguments all over again.

[Alex Montero]

Hey, I think my dad's boss has a cousin whose neighbor knows that very same tech, small world!



nice. book worthy.......

[toxic]

Let's talk about what the 550D doesn't have compared to the 50D.

- quick control dial
- multi-controller
- larger pentaprism viewfinder
- 59ms shutter lag (vs 90ms on 550D)
- 100ms VF blackout (vs 130ms on 550D)
- more frames per second
- larger buffer
- better construction
- better ergonomics
- more durable shutter
- interchangeable focusing screens
- PC cord input
- 9 cross-type AF points
- better AF algorithm

Since Canon decided to place its bodies in direct competition to Nikon, it needs a competitor for the D90. As good as the T2i/550D might be spec-wise, it is not an amateur level camera. It was designed to be and is a consumer-level body.

[CanonGarcon]

Let's talk about what the 550D doesn't have compared to the 50D.

- quick control dial
- multi-controller
- larger pentaprism viewfinder
- 59ms shutter lag (vs 90ms on 550D)
- 100ms VF blackout (vs 130ms on 550D)
- more frames per second
- larger buffer
- better construction
- better ergonomics
- more durable shutter
- interchangeable focusing screens
- PC cord input
- 9 cross-type AF points
- better AF algorithm

Since Canon decided to place its bodies in direct competition to Nikon, it needs a competitor for the D90. As good as the T2i/550D might be spec-wise, it is not an amateur level camera. It was designed to be and is a consumer-level body.

The T2i competes with the D90.

[MrWho]

The T2i competes with the D90.

XS vs D3000
T2i vs D5000
x0D vs D90
7D vs D300s
5D2 vs D700
1D4 vs D3s
1Ds3 vs D3x

The same exact thing was going on in the Nikon camp when the D90 took forever coming out so reading over this thread is becoming fun :)

[toxic]

The T2i competes with the D90.

No it does not. Its ergonomics and construction put it in the consumer category. The D90 is an amateur-level camera.

[steveagle]

My belief is the 7D was released so that Canon can charge consumers more money.

This is just my observation:
3 years ago I bought my 30D. If i was to use the same money today, i can buy a 7D. The cost of a 50D today was just a little more than a 400D 3 years ago.

Canon comes out with new products to justify charging consumers more money. In Australia (using a local grey importer for price reference):
7D: $1,899
50D: $1,165
550D: $1,029

As far as i can see there is definitely a place for the 60D.

[TeamSpeed]

I really don't understand what you are saying?

The price difference between the 30D, 40D, and 50D is exactly $100, which really means that you are paying the same amount every couple of years for much more tech. The prices are not going up, you are paying the same or in some cases less, for more camera. Canon really isn't charging any more, and if they do, it is due to the currency rate.

Plus new products will cost more upon release, then they go down over time. Plus you cannot compare different lines that came out at different times to each other at current prices.

So again, I am really confused by what you are saying. ???

[MrWho]

He's saying that he paid for his 30D what a 7D costs today so the 7D was created purely for marketing. What he posted is honestly way too much for a Rebel (no way the Rebel series is $1,000 build quality nor feature set) and since there's an $800 gap between the Rebel and 7D, there's a middle price point where the 60D can be comfortably placed.

I'm starting to think there are a few 7D owners, well a select few, that will have a heart attack the moment a 60D is released lol.

[krb]

I'm starting to think there are a few 7D owners, well a select few, that will have a heart attack the moment a 60D is released lol.
This makes about as much sense as saying that owners of the 24-70 are going to have heart attacks when the 24-70 IS is released. Even if the 60D costs half the price of the 7D and offers everything the 7D does and then some, it will never be able to come back in time to get the shots they are taking right now.

[CanonGarcon]

Oh one more page that speculates on the 60D, rumors have it that GPS will be built into the 60D, or in-body IS, due to recent Canon patents.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_60D.html

60D is coming, and with features not seen before, not much you can really do about it at this point... :)

The facts are out there, you just have to put them together, or just make 6 month old arguments all over again.

Where is the 60D?

The Canonrumors dork said last year the 7D was the replacement for the 60D, the 60D was coming out in February, there would be no 60D, there will be a 60D. Still no 60D.

[TeamSpeed]

There are two release cycles a year, one in the winter and one in the summer/fall. Patience is a virtue, there are 3.5 DSLR product lines, and not all get new products each year.

[hqqns]

My belief is the 7D was released so that Canon can charge consumers more money.

This is just my observation:

7D: $1,899
50D: $1,165
550D: $1,029

As far as i can see there is definitely a place for the 60D.

OT: Don't bother with grey import for the 7d - got a 7d from JB for $2000

There is room between the 550d and 7d as can be seen above --^

[MrWho]

This makes about as much sense as saying that owners of the 24-70 are going to have heart attacks when the 24-70 IS is released. Even if the 60D costs half the price of the 7D and offers everything the 7D does and then some, it will never be able to come back in time to get the shots they are taking right now.

That comment was made in jest ;)

[nanette37]

XS vs D3000
T2i vs D5000
x0D vs D90
7D vs D300s
5D2 vs D700
1D4 vs D3s
1Ds3 vs D3x

The same exact thing was going on in the Nikon camp when the D90 took forever coming out so reading over this thread is becoming fun :)

where does the 50d fit here??

[MrWho]

where does the 50d fit here??

50D vs D90 (50D = X0D series)

[Bob_A]

XS vs D3000
T2i vs D5000
x0D vs D90
7D vs D300s
5D2 vs D700
1D4 vs D3s
1Ds3 vs D3x

The same exact thing was going on in the Nikon camp when the D90 took forever coming out so reading over this thread is becoming fun :)

Exactly. The 50D competes with the D90 and the T2i competes with the D5000. IMO the T2i is marginally better than the D5000 and the D90 is marginally better than the 50D YMMV :) The 60D will no doubt be better than the D90 ... and the next round of leapfrog begins.

[DStanic]

Rebel T1i vs. D90... which looks closer to a 50D to you??

We NEED a 60D to compete with the D90 (and it's eventual replacement)... YES I WANT A TOP LCD SCREEN and XXD CONTROLS PLEASE!

PICTURE from the link : http://www.digitalreview.ca/content/Canon-Rebel-T1i-EOS-500D-Compared-to-Nikon-D90.shtml

http://www.digitalreview.ca/pics/Rebel_T1i/Rebel_T1i_versus_D90_top_s.jpg

[CanonGarcon]

Rebel T1i vs. D90... which looks closer to a 50D to you??

We NEED a 60D to compete with the D90 (and it's eventual replacement)... YES I WANT A TOP LCD SCREEN and XXD CONTROLS PLEASE!

PICTURE from the link : http://www.digitalreview.ca/content/Canon-Rebel-T1i-EOS-500D-Compared-to-Nikon-D90.shtml

http://www.digitalreview.ca/pics/Rebel_T1i/Rebel_T1i_versus_D90_top_s.jpg

You do not NEED a 60D to compete with the Nikon D90.

[Tom W]

http://www.digitalreview.ca/pics/Rebel_T1i/Rebel_T1i_versus_D90_top_s.jpg

Interesting how NIkon sees that its users need an arrow to show which way to point the camera. :)

j/k....

Body-wise, the D90 seems to align with the XXD bodies more than the Rebel/XXX bodies. But I think that it sits somewhere between the 50D and the T1i. One thing to take note of - Canon and Nikon seldom align models directly opposite each other, except perhaps at the two lowest-priced tiers. They try to stay a little offset from one another. The 5D2 and D700 have significant differences, with Nikon offering pro-level AF and FPS while Canon has megapixels and video capability.

[Tom W]

BTW, maybe the next xxD body will be a budget full-frame camera. ;)

[MrWho]

You do not NEED a 60D to compete with the Nikon D90.

Would you happen to work for Canon marketing by any chance?

[Bob_A]

You do not NEED a 60D to compete with the Nikon D90.

Of course Canon doesn't NEED a 60D to compete with the D90, but they will because they'll gain more market share and make more money. Then a year later Nikon will respond with a camera that is better than the Canon offering.

Without competition we'd still be shooting with 10D technology and paying $2000+ for an xxD body.

[DStanic]

You do not NEED a 60D to compete with the Nikon D90.

The D90 just seems like a great entry level prosumer camera. Something you could actually use to get started in wedding photography (nothing against the Rebels, my XTi did a fine job. :)) But the top LCD screen, better controls and better battery life make the difference.

True you don't NEED a 60D (the 50D is a better "still" camera over the D90 after all), but the D90 does have video...

If I was starting out from scratch on a budget the D90 would be a very attractive choice. When I started out there was only the Xti, 30D, D40 and D80 on the shelves...

[CanonGarcon]

BTW, maybe the next xxD body will be a budget full-frame camera. ;)

Keep dreaming. Not going to happen. If there is a budget full frame, it will have a different letter designation like 9D or 3D.

[Tom W]

Keep dreaming. Not going to happen. If there is a budget full frame, it will have a different letter designation like 9D or 3D.

It could be a lot of things, but a budget full-frame body will not be a 3D. In Canon's heirarchy, the 3 is a higher spot than the 5.

Sooner or later, the $1500 full-frame body will be unveiled by somebody. Really don't see a reason why a full-frame body could not be an xxD body. Unless, of course, they give it a verbal name like "digital Elan" or something of that sort.

[DStanic]

I'm sorry but what kind of features could you possibly remove from a 5D series to make a "budget" FF? Take the video away? 2.5" LCD? :lol:

If it's going to be cheaper, it would just have a dumbed down sensor (or maybe a 1.3x, but then not technically FF) I don't see that happening.

[hqqns]

I'm sorry but what kind of features could you possibly remove from a 5D series to make a "budget" FF? Take the video away? 2.5" LCD? :lol:

If it's going to be cheaper, it would just have a dumbed down sensor (or maybe a 1.3x, but then not technically FF) I don't see that happening.
5D III comes out then 5D II becomes 9D/60D/XD with features (video) cut out (a bit like 450d->1000d)

[MARK1992]

Highly doubt they'll remove video. It's probably a major selling point.

AF Points with fewer cross-type ones - that's a possibility. From 9 on the 450D to 7 in the 1000D.

[Tom W]

5D III comes out then 5D II becomes 9D/60D/XD with features (video) cut out (a bit like 450d->1000d)

Likewise, when the 7D came out, the 50D became the "60D". Of course, there wouldn't be any profit for Canon in the used market so a used 5D2 would be useless to them. They don't get a piece of the $1300 that people are getting for a used classic 5D.

Look for today's 5D2 to be very similar to tomorrow's budget full frame body, since its replacement will undoubtedly have significant advances (like the 7D's AF). For Canon, it's a no-brainer. The sunk costs of R&D for the 5D2 are paid off already (or will be shortly). All that's left is the production cost. Just as the older AF system of the 30D finds its place in the T2i (along with a 7D-derived sensor), you would see much of the 5D2 in a cheaper entry-level full frame body.

[CanonGarcon]

Highly doubt they'll remove video. It's probably a major selling point.

AF Points with fewer cross-type ones - that's a possibility. From 9 on the 450D to 7 in the 1000D.

That is not happening. There are already enough people who complain about the AF of the 5D series, Canon is not going to bring out a stripped down camera.

Funny that people who complain enough about the prices are the ones that can't afford them.

[hqqns]

That is not happening. There are already enough people who complain about the AF of the 5D series, Canon is not going to bring out a stripped down camera.

Please explain, how do you know?


Funny that people who complain enough about the prices are the ones that can't afford them.
Sorry I don't get the joke, how is this funny?

[TeamSpeed]

Please explain, how do you know?


Sorry I don't get the joke, how is this funny?

You won't get a good response, the reply was very trollish, and Garcon has already shown he/she doesn't know what they are talking about, providing prices that are incorrect, etc.

This thread is really headed nowhere, all we can do is wait for the unofficial leak that invariably comes out about 2 weeks before the announcement.

[hqqns]

This thread is really headed nowhere, all we can do is wait for the unofficial leak that invariably comes out about 2 weeks before the announcement.
Yeah, but it's still fun to predict. Bragging rights to the people most correct :)

[MARK1992]

That is not happening. There are already enough people who complain about the AF of the 5D series, Canon is not going to bring out a stripped down camera.

Funny that people who complain enough about the prices are the ones that can't afford them.

Its an analogy for crying out loud.



This thread is really headed nowhere, all we can do is wait for the unofficial leak that invariably comes out about 2 weeks before the announcement.

Sounds like the best suggestion.

[hqqns]

Its an analogy for crying out loud.

huh?

If you're not interested in the thread then don't read it please.

[MARK1992]

huh?

If you're not interested in the thread then don't read it please.

-Snipped due to misunderstanding-

[hqqns]

How am I not interested? My analogy of watered-down features - such as the AF points from the 450D to the 1000D is evidence for your initial point of the 5D Mark II becoming a lesser model when the Mark III gets released.

P.S I don't need anyone telling me when, what or how to read. I believe I'm capable and intelligent enough to know and more importantly understand what gets said and posted in threads like these.
Sorry, I didnt take notice of your nick before when you were commenting. My appologies. I still don't get the anology comment though.

[Tom W]

This thread is really headed nowhere, all we can do is wait for the unofficial leak that invariably comes out about 2 weeks before the announcement.

That is true. I will note that my posts on this Rumor thread are purely speculative.

I have no idea what Canon has up its sleeve, but I do believe that somebody will be putting out a $1500-ish full frame DSLR in the next year or so. For all I know, it could be the 5D2 in a Rebel chassis (a full frame Rebel/xxxD??), after the 5D2 is replaced.

It's kind of fun to guess and speculate. Once in a while, a good idea comes from these threads.

[MARK1992]

Sorry, I didnt take notice of your nick before when you were commenting. My appologies. I still don't get the anology comment though.

No worries - we all make mistakes :D

Basically the 1000D "inherits" features from the 450D, but at a smaller extent, which like you said, could happen to the 5D Mark II. I'm merely giving an example - the number of AF points (9 on the 450D versus 7 on the 1000D) may be a "feature" which they may beef up on the Mark III.

But I don't know, its merely an example :)

[hqqns]

That is true. I will note that my posts on this Rumor thread are purely speculative.

I have no idea what Canon has up its sleeve, but I do believe that somebody will be putting out a $1500-ish full frame DSLR in the next year or so. For all I know, it could be the 5D2 in a Rebel chassis (a full frame Rebel/xxxD??), after the 5D2 is replaced.

It's kind of fun to guess and speculate. Once in a while, a good idea comes from these threads.
I think you hit the nail on the head, none of us know what is going to happen, that's not the point. Canon has humans making decisions, there is no reason that one of us is not clever enough to give a good guess to what they are deciding. Each one of these scenarios may become true. It's just a matter of the ideas aligning with Canon's marketing department. QED lol

[Tom W]

I think that the most economical way for Canon to offer a full framer at a low price would be to take the sensor/AF/viewfinder/electronics from the 5D2 and put it all into an engineered plastic body like that of the T2i. That would minimize R&D costs and setup costs since most of the components are already in production.

Of course, the 5D2 would need to be replaced first if they went that route, with something substantially better (7D AF, 30 MPX, 5 FPS??) to maintain product differentiation. And they probably won't update the 5D2 until the 1Ds4 is out, lest they cannibalize sales of the flagship.

How all that fits into the xxD scenario, I have no idea. Just speculating out loud here.

[hqqns]

I think that the most economical way for Canon to offer a full framer at a low price would be to take the sensor/AF/viewfinder/electronics from the 5D2 and put it all into an engineered plastic body like that of the T2i. That would minimize R&D costs and setup costs since most of the components are already in production.

Of course, the 5D2 would need to be replaced first if they went that route, with something substantially better (7D AF, 30 MPX, 5 FPS??) to maintain product differentiation. And they probably won't update the 5D2 until the 1Ds4 is out, lest they cannibalize sales of the flagship.

How all that fits into the xxD scenario, I have no idea. Just speculating out loud here.

I don't feel that they would put a FF into a rebel. But change the arguments you present above to fit into a XXD then maybe. I don't thing 60D though, maybe 70d or 80d... just speculation

[MARK1992]

I don't feel that they would put a FF into a rebel. But change the arguments you present above to fit into a XXD then maybe. I don't thing 60D though, maybe 70d or 80d... just speculation

I won't be surprised if Full Frame were to go mainstream. Wasn't too long ago where a 1.3 megapixel PnS was exclusive.

[hqqns]

I won't be surprised if Full Frame were to go mainstream. Wasn't too long ago where a 1.3 megapixel PnS was exclusive.

The issue I see is the expense in a silicon chip the size of the full frame sensor. Very expensive as it takes up a lot of a waffer in manufacturing. If it goes wrong (and it does) it gets expensive, hence why its so much more expensive for a FF, the losses are much greater. Until they can get that under control I feel you will NOT see one in the base class.

[MARK1992]

The issue I see is the expense in a silicon chip the size of the full frame sensor. Very expensive as it takes up a lot of a waffer in manufacturing. If it goes wrong (and it does) it gets expensive, hence why its so much more expensive for a FF, the losses are much greater. Until they can get that under control I feel you will NOT see one in the base class.

True, I haven't considered that.

Although I still feel that it would happen - just when? Just a peek at everyday electrical appliances. Televisions, radios, refrigerators. They've come a long way, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were horridly expensive back then and where only a few fortunate souls could afford one. I can foresee that happening to dSLRs. I'm fairly sure microwave radiation was a PITA to produce long ago :p

[hqqns]

True, I haven't considered that.

Although I still feel that it would happen - just when? Just a peek at everyday electrical appliances. Televisions, radios, refrigerators. They've come a long way, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were horridly expensive back then and where only a few fortunate souls could afford one. I can foresee that happening to dSLRs. I'm fairly sure microwave radiation was a PITA to produce long ago :p
Absolutely, I should have said I don't see that as happening now, not never. It will happen I think, we just don't know when :)

[Tom W]

I don't feel that they would put a FF into a rebel. But change the arguments you present above to fit into a XXD then maybe. I don't thing 60D though, maybe 70d or 80d... just speculation

Except that the 5D/5D2 is pretty close to xxD in terms of build and operation anyway. If you pick up a 30D, you could just as well pick up a 5D. The feel and operation are very similar. The question in my mind would be whether Canon would be able to break the $1500 full-frame barrier and still maintain the magnesium alloy body or not. I'm sure that they're a little more expensive to manufacture than the engineered plastic body used in the Rebel series.

How many corners would they need to cut to get a full frame body to that price point and still be able to sell at a profit?

[hqqns]

Except that the 5D/5D2 is pretty close to xxD in terms of build and operation anyway. If you pick up a 30D, you could just as well pick up a 5D. The feel and operation are very similar. The question in my mind would be whether Canon would be able to break the $1500 full-frame barrier and still maintain the magnesium alloy body or not. I'm sure that they're a little more expensive to manufacture than the engineered plastic body used in the Rebel series.

How many corners would they need to cut to get a full frame body to that price point and still be able to sell at a profit?

Off course they could "cut corners" to get the price down but I couldnt see a company like Canon put an expensive sensor into a cheap body. It's like putting a million dollar house on a hunderd thousand dollar block of land. I feel it's not economic, they have to make money somewhere and I think a body is cheaper to make than you might think. Hence a xxd body rather than xxxd body

[MARK1992]

Absolutely, I should have said I don't see that as happening now, not never. It will happen I think, we just don't know when :)

There's always "Used" :p

Some 5D Classics here are going for relatively peanuts. The local Canon guys dropped the price of the 5D Mark II quite significantly.

And Tom, I wouldn't like the idea of a Full Frame sensor with a plastic body, or with Rebel controls :(
As of now its still "superior" technology compared to the APS-C sized sensor, and having a Full Frame sensor in a body that's cheaper and less exclusive than a 7D for example sounds like quite a big turn off to me.

Although I'm sure that there are chaps out there who are willing to make compromises for that extra few millimetres on that chip :)

[hqqns]

BTW I'm really enjoying this intellectual discussion (w/o trolls :) ).

[MARK1992]

BTW I'm really enjoying this intellectual discussion (w/o trolls :) ).

Same here ;)

Nice to talk to an intelligent human being :p

POTN's actually quite devoid of trolls thankfully. On other forums I'd expect stuff like, "ZOMGGGG LOLOLOLOLOLOL 60D SUX0RZ MY DAD BOUGHT ME A 1Ds III I DON'T NEED NO LOUSY 60D LOLOLOLOLOLOL" from a 13 year old kid whose Dad hadn't bought him a 1Ds Mark III :p

[DStanic]

Off course they could "cut corners" to get the price down but I couldnt see a company like Canon put an expensive sensor into a cheap body. It's like putting a million dollar house on a hunderd thousand dollar block of land. I feel it's not economic, they have to make money somewhere and I think a body is cheaper to make than you might think. Hence a xxd body rather than xxxd body

They could always put it in a plastic/aluminum body like a D90. Still a good camera even though it's not quite as solid as a xxD. That would lower the cost a bit...

[Tom W]

There's always "Used" :p

Some 5D Classics here are going for relatively peanuts. The local Canon guys dropped the price of the 5D Mark II quite significantly.

Sold my original 5D about 3 weeks after getting the 7D. I realized that I was never going to use it again. They're a true bargain now - a camera that held the high ground (except for the big pro bodies) for at least 3 years.

And Tom, I wouldn't like the idea of a Full Frame sensor with a plastic body, or with Rebel controls :(

I have to agree there - working with the mid-range bodies and having had a couple of Rebel bodies, I have to say that I like the xxD/5D/7D interface MUCH better.

As of now its still "superior" technology compared to the APS-C sized sensor, and having a Full Frame sensor in a body that's cheaper and less exclusive than a 7D for example sounds like quite a big turn off to me.

Although I'm sure that there are chaps out there who are willing to make compromises for that extra few millimetres on that chip :)

After considering what you're saying, I do wonder how a Rebel-like (xxxD) full frame body would sell. That may be too entry-level. Perhaps xxD level is the minimum for jumping to full frame. I'm just trying to put together how Canon might achieve full frame at $1500, assuming they even want to. With Sony and Nikon in the FF market, one of the 3 will probably be doing so pretty soon.

[TeamSpeed]

That is true. I will note that my posts on this Rumor thread are purely speculative.

I have no idea what Canon has up its sleeve, but I do believe that somebody will be putting out a $1500-ish full frame DSLR in the next year or so. For all I know, it could be the 5D2 in a Rebel chassis (a full frame Rebel/xxxD??), after the 5D2 is replaced.

It's kind of fun to guess and speculate. Once in a while, a good idea comes from these threads.

That wasn't directed to you, it was directed to those (maybe just one) that "know" exactly what Canon is going to do with their lineup, what they will or won't come out with, etc. I agree putting in opinions about what would be cool is most beneficial, and we know that Canon looks through these forums from time to time, so it is a way to make our voices heard. :)

[MARK1992]

That wasn't directed to you, it was directed to those (maybe just one) that "know" exactly what Canon is going to do with their lineup, what they will or won't come out with, etc. I agree putting in opinions about what would be cool is most beneficial, and we know that Canon looks through these forums from time to time, so it is a way to make our voices heard. :)

The chap who does probably has one of the easiest / most brilliant "normal" job :p

Who wouldn't want to get paid for surfing the net? :lol:





After considering what you're saying, I do wonder how a Rebel-like (xxxD) full frame body would sell. That may be too entry-level. Perhaps xxD level is the minimum for jumping to full frame. I'm just trying to put together how Canon might achieve full frame at $1500, assuming they even want to. With Sony and Nikon in the FF market, one of the 3 will probably be doing so pretty soon.

Mmhmm, although obviously I'd rather Canon start the trend :p

[DStanic]

That wasn't directed to you, it was directed to those (maybe just one) that "know" exactly what Canon is going to do with their lineup, what they will or won't come out with, etc. I agree putting in opinions about what would be cool is most beneficial, and we know that Canon looks through these forums from time to time, so it is a way to make our voices heard. :)


Isn't that what Canon did with the 7D? They got the opinions of actual photographers?

[hqqns]

Isn't that what Canon did with the 7D? They got the opinions of actual photographers?
Well they won't find any of those here :lol: :lol: :lol:

[CanonGarcon]

I don't feel that they would put a FF into a rebel. But change the arguments you present above to fit into a XXD then maybe. I don't thing 60D though, maybe 70d or 80d... just speculation

Canon will not be putting a full frame in an XXD body and call it a 60D. That would lead to too much confusion and lots of anger when someone find they just upgraded to a 60D and can't use their EF-S lens. Many DSLR owners don't know the difference between full frame and crop cameras.

[CanonGarcon]

I won't be surprised if Full Frame were to go mainstream. Wasn't too long ago where a 1.3 megapixel PnS was exclusive.

Not going to happen anytime soon. I heard the same thing back in 2006. How many full frame DSLRs did Canon have then? 2. How many does Canon have in 2010? 2.

Canon has put a lot of money into introduction of EF-S lenses in the last year. I don't think Canon would introduce so many EF-S lenses if they thought full frame cameras are going mainstream.

Canon hasn't introduced a new consumer range EF lens in 5 years.

[MARK1992]

Not going to happen anytime soon. I heard the same thing back in 2006. How many full frame DSLRs did Canon have then? 2. How many does Canon have in 2010? 2.

Canon has put a lot of money into introduction of EF-S lenses in the last year. I don't think Canon would introduce so many EF-S lenses if they thought full frame cameras are going mainstream.

Canon hasn't introduced a new consumer range EF lens in 5 years.

Point taken. Well like the 60D, we'll just have to wait and see.

[TeamSpeed]

Canon will not be putting a full frame in an XXD body and call it a 60D. That would lead to too much confusion and lots of anger when someone find they just upgraded to a 60D and can't use their EF-S lens. Many DSLR owners don't know the difference between full frame and crop cameras.

Not going to happen anytime soon. I heard the same thing back in 2006. How many full frame DSLRs did Canon have then? 2. How many does Canon have in 2010? 2.

Canon has put a lot of money into introduction of EF-S lenses in the last year. I don't think Canon would introduce so many EF-S lenses if they thought full frame cameras are going mainstream.

Canon hasn't introduced a new consumer range EF lens in 5 years.

1) Canon introduced what, 2 new EFS lenses in the last year? It was two years prior where they introduced 2 new EFS lenses, using that term loosely with one of those 2. The introduction of EFS lenses is not very frenzied or fast-paced, Canon's introduction of new bodies is happening faster than EFS lens introduction.

2) There might be a bit of confusion if the 60D had a FF sensor, but then again there are something like 11-13 Canon DSLRs floating around today that cannot accept EFS lenses. It is almost an even split of Canon DSLRs that accept EFS lenses as there are those that cannot. I agree though, they would designate a new model number, something with a single digit, if they were going to create a stripped down lower cost FF model.

[CanonGarcon]

1) Canon introduced what, 2 new EFS lenses in the last year? It was two years prior where they introduced 2 new EFS lenses, using that term loosely with one of those 2. The introduction of EFS lenses is not very frenzied or fast-paced, Canon's introduction of new bodies is happening faster than EFS lens introduction.

2) There might be a bit of confusion if the 60D had a FF sensor, but then again there are something like 11-13 Canon DSLRs floating around today that cannot accept EFS lenses. It is almost an even split of Canon DSLRs that accept EFS lenses as there are those that cannot. I agree though, they would designate a new model number, something with a single digit, if they were going to create a stripped down lower cost FF model.


1. How many consumer EF lenses has Canon introduced in the last 4 years? They have introduced a lot more EF-S lenses during that time.

2. Among DSLRs currently in service, alot more than half can take EF-S lenses. Rebels X0D, and 7D are the big sellers. 5D series sales don't approach the volume of the cheaper models and the 1D series are not high as all,

[Tom W]

Not going to happen anytime soon. I heard the same thing back in 2006. How many full frame DSLRs did Canon have then? 2. How many does Canon have in 2010? 2.


How many full frame DSLRs did Nikon and Sony have then?
How many now?

Competition will continue the downward price push on full frame bodies. Costs will always be higher than with croppers primarily due to sensor-manufacturing issues, but the trend is obvious.

There will be a $1500 full-frame DSLR. Who markets it first is the only real question.

Whether Canon uses the xxD format for their low-priced entry remains to be seen, but it's coming.

[Tom W]

Canon hasn't introduced a new consumer range EF lens in 5 years.

Wouldn't take much to tool up the old 28-105 f/3.5-4.5 USM, given that it's already been produced. Or even one of the old 28-80 "cheapo" lenses that were so plentiful over the years. They've already got the 70-300 IS lens as a sharp, inexpensive "consumer" grade telephoto zoom.

And really, they already have a few "consumer" EF prime lenses on the market. Granted, some need updating, but the infrastructure for full frame is already pretty solid.

I'll also note that the APS-C format was out for a few years before Canon made ANY EF-S lenses. The D30, D60, and 10D were on the market before EF-S lens was even invented, and are not compatible with them.

[TeamSpeed]

1. How many consumer EF lenses has Canon introduced in the last 4 years? They have introduced a lot more EF-S lenses during that time.

2. Among DSLRs currently in service, alot more than half can take EF-S lenses. Rebels X0D, and 7D are the big sellers. 5D series sales don't approach the volume of the cheaper models and the 1D series are not high as all,

1) Name them, I know of just 5 in the past 3 years starting in Sept 2007 (I missed one). I am curious which ones I am forgetting. And there certainly aren't ALOT more.

18-55 IS (4th version of the 18-55 kit lens, so this is a 1/2 release)
55-250 IS
15-85 IS
18-135 IS
18-200 IS

2) There are exactly 12 DSLRs that can take EFS lenses, there are 13 Canon DSLRs that cannot, and I might be missing some. Therefore LESS than half can take the EFS lenses. I don't care what you consider "in service", because that is purely a subjective term and cannot be based in fact.

Can take EFS: 20D, 30D, 40D, 50D, 7D, Rebel, XT, XTi, XSi, Xs, T1i, T2i
Cannot take EFS: D30, D60, 10D, 1D, 1Ds, 1DII, 1DsII, 1DIIN, 1DIII, 1DsIII, 1DIV, 5D, 5DII

[CanonGarcon]

1) Name them, I know of just 5 in the past 3 years starting in Sept 2007 (I missed one). I am curious which ones I am forgetting. And there certainly aren't ALOT more.

18-55 IS (4th version of the 18-55 kit lens, so this is a 1/2 release)
55-250 IS
15-85 IS
18-135 IS
18-200 IS

2) There are exactly 12 DSLRs that can take EFS lenses, there are 13 Canon DSLRs that cannot, and I might be missing some. Therefore LESS than half can take the EFS lenses. I don't care what you consider "in service", because that is purely a subjective term and cannot be based in fact.

Can take EFS: 20D, 30D, 40D, 50D, 7D, Rebel, XT, XTi, XSi, Xs, T1i, T2i
Cannot take EFS: D30, D60, 10D, 1D, 1Ds, 1DII, 1DsII, 1DIIN, 1DIII, 1DsIII, 1DIV, 5D, 5DII

You have to look at how the ditial cameras in the hands of consumers that are currently being used. No sane marketing firm is going to subscribe to your reasoning. There are a lot more EF-S compatable digital cameras being used than not. There are not many D30, D60, 10D left on the market. Rebels and the X0D lines are the biggest sellers.

How many consumer EF lenses has Canon released in that time span? Nothing.

[CanonGarcon]

How many full frame DSLRs did Nikon and Sony have then?
How many now?

Competition will continue the downward price push on full frame bodies. Costs will always be higher than with croppers primarily due to sensor-manufacturing issues, but the trend is obvious.

There will be a $1500 full-frame DSLR. Who markets it first is the only real question.

Whether Canon uses the xxD format for their low-priced entry remains to be seen, but it's coming.


You have no idea whether there will be a $1,500 full frame on the market. Full frame sensors are very expensive to manufacter compared to CMOS sensors.

[toxic]

You have no idea whether there will be a $1,500 full frame on the market. Full frame sensors are very expensive to manufacter compared to CMOS sensors.

"Full frame" is a sensor size, specifically 24x36mm.

CMOS is a sensor technology. All current DSLRs use CMOS sensors.

[Tom W]

You have no idea whether there will be a $1,500 full frame on the market. Full frame sensors are very expensive to manufacter compared to CMOS sensors.

Canon's full frame sensors ARE CMOS sensors. CMOS is a type of sensor, not a size.

I think what you were comparing is the full frame sensor to the APS-C or smaller sensor. And yes, they are more expensive to manufacture than the smaller sensors. But how much more expensive? Back in the earlier days when the defect rate was higher, and when full-frame sensors required 3 exposure passes to project the entire circuit mask on the full frame sensor, sensor costs of full frame were quoted by Canon to be 10-20 times the cost of an APS-C sensor. That was back in the days of the 5D and 1Ds II.

The price differential is, however, dropping. The larger sensor will always carry a premium if only for the fact that it is larger. But the other factors that drive the cost even higher are being eliminated, and that is witnessed by the price of the 5D2 compared to the 5D at this point in its life. Defect rates are down, and circuit mask techniques are improving. Larger or rectangular wafers are coming if they're not here already.

It's only a matter of time before we see a $1500 full frame DSLR. I don't see any argument that could deny that, barring some kind of action that would sharply devaluate the currency.

[enrigonz]

I was hoping to see a 60D but it never happen so I bought a T2i because of it's capabilities over the 50D but not as expensive as the 7D, half the price. If they make a semi-pro body like the 50D with T2i capabilities I would probably sell my T2i and buy it if it was priced right, around $1100. That was suppose to be the 60D but the way things are going, it doesn't look like a 60D will ever happen, just the better high ISO and HD video recording along with better IQ all together makes the T2i a reasonable decision for the time being.