need help mega photo shoot

[jr#8]

Hey all, Heres my scenario. I have been shooting a 20D for about 5 years and feel very comfortable with the camera. I Shoot mostly wildlife and sports and dabbled in a little low light situations (middle school and high school plays). I Just started using a real flash, 480 (not the built in on the camera). I was volunteered to take the portraits and my daughters 8th grade cotillion. I dont have any of the equipment that the professionals have the light and strobes, wirelessly connected to the camera back drops and all that kind of stuff.
Let alone portraits of posing the people.
So heres my plan I'm go to as they say shoot from the hip. The portraits are to be taken at the school under fluorescent lights. I going to use a 1000 watt work light diffused back to the subjects.( if I could figure out how to post a sketch I will shortly) The work light will be facing me with the diffuser/reflector back at the subjects. Subjects will be posed, thats another question how to pose them? The the image will be taken. Then without further ado. Someone will run to the CVS/Walgreens. and get them printed and then handed out that night. I have about an hour to take the portraits of about 200 kids paired up. Oh Yeah there is no time for any type of processing.
Where should I start. If possible I would like to get into the school for a few days and practice on the any kid that will volunteer. Just so I could get the light right. If possible I would like not to use the flash on the camera because of red eye.
Any suggestions.
Thanks, I need all the help I can get.
Bruce

[IVOlution]

uuuuu 200 kids in 1h, no PP...good luck amigo! ;) But it can be done....I am not a pro either so I will not comment or suggest anything except that this kind of question should be in a Photography Talk section...You might get some answers from pros there. People discuss these issues there more...
Good luck and post some of those when you have done it, would love to see some.

[gonzogolf]

This is a recipe for disaster, using a hotlight for this type of work. You should rethink this and get access to some proper lighting.

[IVOlution]

http://www.garyfongestore.com/flash-accessories.html
check it out....it may help. Never used it,but have seen great results and heard lots of positive critiques about it.
Here is the explanation and how it works:
http://learn.garyfongestore.com/blog/

[sapearl]

The Fong gear will only work well if you are in an area with a low ceiling and/or close walls. It is effective in "reflecting" off large, near surfaces. Otherwise it will suck up 1-2 stops of light and drain flash batteries much more quickly. I would NOT recommend it for this situation.

I admire your effort here - this can be done, although it will require tremendous organization and a lot of help. The correct way to do this would be with studio lights, umbrellas and/or lightboxes. I realize that is not the situation though. If you can find an nice corner with close walls/ceiling and a good backdrop, it is possible to bounce off the wall/ceiling to the side or behind you for a pleasant effect. This is hot perfect, but it would be adequate for the drugstore processing and expectations of the group.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. Although I shot this RAW, you could do the same thing with JPG. I used a 580ex and bounced it to the right and behind me, with the camera on MANUAL, 1/30 sec, f/5.6 and the flash on AUTO. It is not a perfect studio portrait, but quite acceptable and very pleasant for being literally thrown together in seconds. The client was very happy and bought extra enlargements.



http://www.garyfongestore.com/flash-accessories.html
check it out....it may help. Never used it,but have seen great results and heard lots of positive critiques about it.

[IVOlution]

hahaha, as I said, I should not suggets or comment...LOL I leave this to pros like Sapearl.
Good luck once again...
Oh and Sapearl, tnx for the info on Fong gear...every day we learn more :)

[georgebowman]

I agree with Sapearl. You don't want to mix fluorescent and incandescent lights along with a flash. Your white balance is going to be really tough to adjust particularly if you are not going to do any PP. The 430EXii would work as a great slave unit if you could get your hands on a second one. You could put one on your camera and a second as a slave unit. The Gary Fong accessories would also help. However, you could build a simple bounce card instead if the budget is an issue. An extra flash and some simple light modifiers would give you more capability and make your white balance easier to set on-site. I am a parent and grandparent so I know how we can get drawn into these things by our kids. Good luck and let us know how you decide to handle the session. Hang in there!

[sapearl]

Thank you IVO :D. I don't mean to slam the Fong - have never actually used one - but many don't realize it's specialized use.

It works reasonably well under the right conditions...you just have to be aware of what those are. But at the same time, there are other lighting solutions that are either far less expensive or free.

hahaha, as I said, I should not suggets or comment...LOL I leave this to pros like Sapearl.
Good luck once again...
Oh and Sapearl, tnx for the info on Fong gear...every day we learn more :)

[KINGoftheVILLE]

OK not sure how old this is but 200 kids divided by one hour... = 3 seconds per kid. I am not sure it could be done without alot of help. I did school photos at one time and they would push it and do one every 30 seconds BUT you have the time getting them in and out. And forget about getting a smile.

I would see if I could get in and do it before hand like when they were having a dress rehearsal, Most would not know the difference. At a min I would try to get there early and try to get at least another hour.

OK I would set it up where kids would walk in and snap and walk out, i would turn off auto focus and focus in advance on a subject exactly where they will be standing. I would have at least two helpers. One to get them on and one to get them off, but three would be better one on, one off and one right there to make sure they are at the right spot. It will still be tough. Call the local lab that is close and let them be aware an most of the time they can have things ready so when you get there you are not wasting alot of time. BUT before you leave copy your pics on at least two other media, I have had sometimes they have a hard time with some cards.

I did a grade school 300 kids in 3 hours and it was a bear....

Good luck

[drumnut01]

OK not sure how old this is but 200 kids divided by one hour... = 3 seconds per kid. I am not sure it could be done without alot of help. I did school photos at one time and they would push it and do one every 30 seconds BUT you have the time getting them in and out. And forget about getting a smile.

I would see if I could get in and do it before hand like when they were having a dress rehearsal, Most would not know the difference. At a min I would try to get there early and try to get at least another hour.

OK I would set it up where kids would walk in and snap and walk out, i would turn off auto focus and focus in advance on a subject exactly where they will be standing. I would have at least two helpers. One to get them on and one to get them off, but three would be better one on, one off and one right there to make sure they are at the right spot. It will still be tough. Call the local lab that is close and let them be aware an most of the time they can have things ready so when you get there you are not wasting alot of time. BUT before you leave copy your pics on at least two other media, I have had sometimes they have a hard time with some cards.

I did a grade school 300 kids in 3 hours and it was a bear....

Good luck

I think your math is a bit off. I'm getting 18 seconds per kid, which still isn't much time, but a whole lot more possible than 3 seconds.

[jr#8]

OK Most of the kids will be paired. So that cuts it in 1/2. Then would the on the flash diffuser help. But I was thinking of using a piece of rigid insulation with a silvery mat foil that comes glued on for a light diffuser to bounce the incandescent light off of and onto the subjects. I'm going to try to find out if I can get into the school a few days early to practice. Then again there not looking for really professional images.
Its amazing what people think when you have really great equipment. I also dabble in astronomy and the science teacher found out. now I do a star party for the kids.
Am I a sucker or just a parent who cares.
I'm sure there will be more posts. I'm going to try to get my kids to pose for a few shots tonight and see if my lighting idea works.
Thanks for all the input

[k-style]

you are shooting kids, you will not! get it done within an hour, specially 200 kids...you are crazy.

[sapearl]

Make sure there are several other adults assisting you and channeling the students in an organized and structured manner, and at a distance from your equipment and setup. This is the only way it will work.

[CosmoKid]

where are you in NJ? I may be able to help. Maybe with time, maybe with equipment.

But you are really pushing what a pro photographer could do with proper equipment.

[jr#8]

[QUOTE]where are you in NJ/QUOTE] I'm in Edison. Not to worry. I was talking with one of the moms that helped last year and she said that the kids will be imaged as they walk in. If I get there a little early. The kids usually do, so I'll a little more time plus there not looking for a pro image, only for a memory. So she said dont worry to much. I just worry about the dreaded red eye. for some reason I always get it. So I'm thinking about getting a radio controlled set up for my 430 and slave it on another tripod. Only I dont know what to get any suggestions.

[sapearl]

Get an inexpensive flash bracket to raise the unit up off the camera. Of course you'll need the Canon or Focal off-camera cord to retain full communication between the two, but that extra 4-6 inches of height will eliminate red eye.

[quote=jr#8;10157549.....I just worry about the dreaded red eye. for some reason I always get it. So I'm thinking about getting a radio controlled set up for my 430 and slave it on another tripod. Only I dont know what to get any suggestions.[/quote]

[jr#8]

[QUOTE]inexpensive flash bracket/QUOTE][QUOTE]Canon or Focal off-camera cord/QUOTE]
OK can anyone suggest anything. Been looking around and there seems to be quite a few different makes and models to choose from.

[sapearl]

If you want to keep the cost below $100 then Stroboframe offers a couple of options. These are adequately built, semi-compact, not too heavy and do the job for modest use. A number of them are listed on the B&H site.

If you really want to invest a great deal of money in something very well machined, small, compact, lightweight - go with a Newton. Custom and RRS also offer excellent brackets but they are little larger. I have the Newton myself and it's well suited for wedding and event photography.

Here are some pictures and a write-up of that rig:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=338933

Stu

[quote]inexpensive flash bracket/QUOTE][quote]Canon or Focal off-camera cord/QUOTE]
OK can anyone suggest anything. Been looking around and there seems to be quite a few different makes and models to choose from.

[philwillmedia]

Subscribing!
I want to hear about the end result
...I have about an hour to take the portraits of about 200 kids paired up...

100 pairs of school kids in 60 minutes - that gives you less than 30 secs to for each pair to walk to your set up, you to pose them and then take their photo.

Wow...good luck.
Rather you than me.

Bite off more than you can chew - then chew like hell.

[jr#8]

[QUOTE]Bite off more than you can chew - then chew like hell./QUOTE]
just got new teeth so it shouldn't be that difficult.
sapearl thanks for the info the Newton does look awesome but a liitle more then I want to spend I'll look into the stroboframe ones.

[sapearl]

Yes, the Newton is a tremendous bracket but clocked in at near $300 by the time I got down with all the bells and whistles. It functions beautifully but would be overkill for your situation unless you could resell it after the event.

My first bracket was a Stroboframe when I shot medium format film. I actually rebuilt it to suit my own purposes, cobbling together parts from other brackets into a custom assembly. But they make nice gear for the price.

IMO I feel that anything under $25 will either be poorly machined, too light weight, or not function very well. You will be moving fast and will need gear to hold up under quick through-put. Something in the 50-$100 range would likely be pretty decent. Also: BATTERIES - if you're going to be relying upon your strobe, make sure you have enough rechargeable batteries. The throwaways cycle pretty fast, but get drained quite quickly too.

[quote]Bite off more than you can chew - then chew like hell./QUOTE]
just got new teeth so it shouldn't be that difficult.
sapearl thanks for the info the Newton does look awesome but a liitle more then I want to spend I'll look into the stroboframe ones.

[CosmoKid]

i have a 25' ETTL cord, stands and umbrellas you could borrow if you want to drive 20 minutes north to Nutley.

[jr#8]

[QUOTE]i have a 25' ETTL cord, stands and umbrellas you could borrow/QUOTE]
I greatly appreciate the offer but I wouldn't want to be responsible for the equip around that many kids. You know they'll knock something over and break it.
I was also looking into the slave/sync flashes. not knowing anything about them it looks to me like they go off when the main flash does. Is this true?

[jr#8]

for some reason my quote button doesnt work

[form]

Ask them to walk slowly.

[sapearl]

Actually that's a really excellent suggestion Joey - and perhaps if you had them play some background music with a really slow cadence that would encourage a consistent and slow pace.;)

Ask them to walk slowly.

[Hawk's Feather]

You have a HUGE task but seem to have the right attitude. I worked in schools (not as a photographer, but shot lots of pictures) for 35 years and the best advice I can give you is to plan ahead and also get word out to the kids (via the teachers with the approval of the principal). I assume that the principal knows that you will be shooting so go in and talk with him/her and go over your plan. Ask to see the area where you will be shooting and see if there are any restrictions as far as putting things on the floor or wall. Do you plan to have a background or will you be shooting with a wall or something similar for a background? Is there a "staging" or "waiting" area where the kids can wait and will it be supervised by another parent or someone from the school? Find out what time the custodian or first person with a key will be there so that you can be there to get set up. Get everything that you possibly can in a fixed position. Put a piece of tape on the floor where your tripod will be so that if it gets bumped or moved you will not need to spend time getting it back in place. Have a couple of pieces of tape (or better yet some cut-out feet) for the left and right foot of each person. That way they can walk in, put their feet on the feet on the floor, and you are ready. You can angle the feet on the floor slightly so that they are not standing shoulder to shoulder. As said earlier, have your camera on fixed focus so that you don't need to spend time waiting for the autofocus to act. Keep an eye on your camera so that no one else makes any adjustments. Get at LEAST one other adult, a couple would be better. You need one adult to be with the kids by the footprints on the floor. This person's job is to get the kids on the mark, make any quick adjustments of hair or clothes, get them out as soon as you shoot, the next couple ready, and repeat. You also need to have a plan for distribution of the prints. The principal and teachers will not be too excited about looking through a stack of pictures looking for kids in their home room - and the boy in my home room is with a girl from your home room so are there two pictures and if not who gets the one picture. What is the plan for the student whose parent really likes the picture and wants a bunch more for grandparents, etc. Like I said, there needs to be some planning and the school (principal and teachers) will need to know so that they can inform the kids. You also need to plan that there will be a couple of teachers that either forget to tell their home room or don't see it as their "job" and it won't happen. (Been there, watched that.)

So:
1. Get your shooting plan roughed out and meet with the principal to get additional information and make changes as necessary.
2. Get your plan finalized, return to school, give it to the principal, and ask him/her to get the information to the teachers so that they can let the students know.
3. Get in early to get set up.
4. Review with the assistants that you will have so they know their job - getting kids in line, making QUICK adjustments, etc.
5. Keep the line moving. Kids standing (when they want to be somewhere else) is a disaster waiting to happen.
6. Have a backup plan and camera. If your camera dies in the middle of the shoot you will find out what the parents (whose kids did not get their picture taken) think of you and probably your family's ancestors.
7. Enjoy the time with the kids. If you get up tight they will see it and it won't be pretty.

This is still missing things, but it will get you started.

Have fun,

Jerry

[jr#8]

Jerry thats some great advice.
1.I already planned a meeting/pre-shoot. Next week.
2.There will be a back drop(city night scape) I'm going to try to have it there also. if not I'll bring a dark sheet for practice.
3.There will be other parents there to help
4. the feet stickers is a great idea THANKS.
5. The images will be shot as the kids get there.
6. I have ac adapter for the camera. I'll have to get the a buch for the flash's. If I have 2.
7. I'm trying to find out where I can get power( for lights and laptop
8. I'm also having the prints printed and they will bring them home that night. ( I have 2 parent going to 2 CVS's with my CF cards. Plus I'll save a copy on my laptop before they leave.
AGAIN portrait photography isn't my thing.

[jr#8]

Just order the stroboframe w/antitwist plate and the canon off shoe cord. Now for fill light. I'll work on that tomorrow.

[jr#8]

sapearl I went to you site and when I clicked on a thumbnail all I got was a graytowhite in the box. probably me though

[jr#8]

heres an image I shot a few months ago in the school. so the lighting will be the same. definately needs more fill. I think. not to sure of the exif

[Hawk's Feather]

f4.5
1/40 exposure
ISO 282
100 mm
flash fired

[jr#8]

Just received the stroboframe and off shoe cord and got it set up. The frame takes alittle getting used to but I think I like it. Now I'll just have to get a few images and post them. I have a friend building me a optical flash trigger. So once he finished I'm going to use it with a flash and have it bounce off a reflector. Will that work

[Hawk's Feather]

So how did your shoot go?

Jerry

[suecassidy]

I am also dying to know how this shoot went. Do any of the rest of you think that we photographers "overthink" stuff like this? My husband read through this thread and just shook his head in disbelief at the way HE felt we overcomplicated this particular situation. Food for thought, I suppose....

[jr#8]

Didn't happen yet June 12th. My neighbor is also a pro and once he saw my set-up he's loaning me his strobe w/trigger and umbrella. So i'll let you how everything turns out.


Sue yup I think we over think and plan.

[suecassidy]

The reason I say "overthink" is because this thread popped up with you asking for help with the following: I was volunteered to take the portraits and my daughters 8th grade cotillion. We are not talking about a wedding or some big paid gig here. YOU were volunteered. It's an 8th grade cotillion. Now OF COURSE you are wanting to do a good job because that's the kind of guy you are and this involves your 8th grade baby daughter. I hope you don't think that you need to go out and spend a lot of money before you do this good deed for them. I am a huge believer in planning and thinking, so don't miss my point. It IS important. But I think you can do the job that is expected of you with the equipment you have. You will need help organizing and wrangling the kids, but as long as you have a simple background and you corral and pose them, wouldn't even a point and shoot meet expectations for 8th grade cotillion pics? You already have a nice camera and flash, so you are exceeding what they will likely be posing for all night anyway, which will be mom and dad's point and shoot, and their friends' camera phones with crazy, busy backgrounds....sometimes we pros get co-dependent and get to the point where we can't even take a snapshot because we feel that our reputations are on the line. I'm not lumping the rest of this forum into that category,but if the shoe fits, wear it. I find myself fighting with myself all the time and reminding myself that not every image needs to be a masterpiece. In any event, I hope you have fun doing this and it doesn't turn into something stressful. ALSO, dont' forget that this is a milestone in your baby daughter's life. Don't be so busy doing this favor that you can't sneak in and grab some shots of her doing an awkward slow dance with a shy, pimply faced boy. : )

[jr#8]

[QUOTE]grab some shots of her doing an awkward slow dance with a shy, pimply faced boy/QUOTE]I plan on it. and the boy is the one in the portrait. This is and will be fun. I love hanging with the young folk anyway

[jr#8]

Had the shoot last night. All went well. There was another volunteer photographer there also. He had quite the setup a couple of strobe's, soft box, pc with a projector for the kids to see there images. It worked out well with the 2 of us he had a wide ngle good for the groups and I did the couples. Heres one to start. A little out of focus. but on a 4X6 CVS print it looks great

[sapearl]

Any idea why you were OOF - for that type of setup it should have been tack sharp.

[jr#8]

Any idea why you were OOF - for that type of setup it should have been tack sharp.
Not to sure I had auto focus on and the IS off used a tripod and a shutter release. I might have hit the tripod not to sure. But I have other that where good. When I get a chance I'll post them

[jr#8]

They can be all be viewed here
http://s830.photobucket.com/albums/zz222/bhautz/Jams%208th%20Grade%20Dance%202010/

[sapearl]

I'm guessing that maybe you used center point AF.... if that was the case then you were focusing on the the blurry cityscape background since the center point would have fallen right between the couple.

Not to sure I had auto focus on and the IS off used a tripod and a shutter release. I might have hit the tripod not to sure. But I have other that where good. When I get a chance I'll post them