SQUARE sensor on 1dsmk4 possible...will lenses work with it?

[Jerobean]

There is no reason this couldn't be happening right? I mean lenses produce an image circle large enough to accommodate a rectangular sensor, so a square wouldn't be any different correct?

this would be SO awesome. Well, once it trickled down to something I could afford anyways.

[Anders Östberg]

There are several reasons why it will never happen... the size and shape of the mirror to just mention one.

[hairy_moth]

There is no reason this couldn't be happening right? I mean lenses produce an image circle large enough to accommodate a rectangular sensor, so a square wouldn't be any different correct?


A petal shaped hood may not work if the size of the square is based on the width rather than the height of the FF sensor.

[gjl711]

There are several reasons why it will never happen... the size and shape of the mirror to just mention one.That can all be changed if a camera is designed from the ground up with a square sensor in mind.

A petal shaped hood may not work if the size of the square is based on the width rather than the height of the FF sensor.That is a more likely reason. Also, done many lenses have baffels in them optimized for the 3:2 sensor?

[Tom W]

That can all be changed if a camera is designed from the ground up with a square sensor in mind.

Perhaps, but the mirror will be longer with a square sensor (though less wide), which means that the backfocus distance would need to be larger. Unless some more complicated mirror flipping scheme is used, other than a simple hinge.

Not saying that it can't happen, but very unlikely.

[gotak]

Yes, canon made a new 70-200 2.8 for today's non-square sensors and now they are going to make people buy new lenses for a squared 1ds4.

[tiger roach]

I'm having trouble seeing what the benefit would be...

[Anders Östberg]

I'm having trouble seeing what the benefit would be...

As with so many other ideas; if there had been any major benefit or enough of a market it would already been done. :)

[Waldemar Sikorski]

I'm having trouble seeing what the benefit would be...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.canonrumors.com%2F (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=canon+rumors)

[toxic]

Technically, CR's post says nothing about whether the 1DsIV will use a square sensor or not. It's just a report explaining the advantages of a square sensor.

That is a more likely reason. Also, done many lenses have baffels in them optimized for the 3:2 sensor?

I think it's just the 24-105 and 28/1.8...but that still presents a problem. Otherwise, a square sensor will fit into the image circle of current lenses, though they won't be as wide horizontally.

[AJSJones]

This "announcement" is almost exactly 6 weeks late :D

(Mirruz, we don't need no steenkin' mirruz - we have LiveView)

[MMX]

They would have to use 30×30 mm sensor so it would be only a few % larger than the current ones. Moreover many lens hoods would have to be redesigned.

[Anders Östberg]

Redesigning the lens hoods is hardly the problem. :p
You'd probably need a whole new lens system, more like medium format lenses.

[CanonGarcon]

This was discussed before. Canon would have to completely redesign their lens and camera system to make this possible.

Could it be that someone, such as Canon, is playing around with the CR dork? Seeing what rediculous stuff he will publish?

[alt4852]

A petal shaped hood may not work if the size of the square is based on the width rather than the height of the FF sensor.

that, along with the fact that lenses such as the 24-105L crop the image circle in the rear make this highly unlikely.

[Stealthy Ninja]

Don't you know it's hip to be....


Oh I just can't finish this joke, it's too lame even for me! :shock:

[Anders Östberg]

Again, does some actually think replacing the plastic lens hood is what's stopping this? Seriously? :)

[alt4852]

Again, does some actually think replacing the plastic lens hood is what's stopping this? Seriously? :)

yes. they're not going to release a second version of every lens hood for the tiny niche of people who will buy this supposed camera. canon sold ten million DSLRs in the last two years.. how many do you think were 1Ds series bodies? aside from opening new manufacturing lines for a piece of plastic that a tiny minority of users will ever put money towards, it would also disrupt the concept of full compatibility across the EF and EOS lines.

canon made the massively painful switch from FL and FD to EOS with the promise of a new system which would revolutionize their whole SLR system. ever since then, EF-S has been the only integrated product series that is not fully compatible with the complete EOS series, and it was done to accommodate a massive market segment that is extremely profitable for them. i just don't see how a square sensor would be worth it to canon. so few people are asking for it, even fewer would purchase it. it just doesn't add up at all.

[Anders Östberg]

You're missing the point and assuming the lenses might actually work with larger sensors if it weren't for the shape of the hood. :)

It's not about redesigning the hood, it's about redesigning the entire lens - it's a new lens system again and that's why it'll never happen, the hood doesn't even matter compared to that.

Theoretically I could see one scenario where current lenses might work with a square sensor, and that would be if Canon made a mirror-less camera like the recent ones from Olympus, Panasonic and Sony. But I still don't see it happening, the market for a square sensor is just too small.

[gjl711]

Hmm.. Just found this. Looks like Pentax just unveiled a medium format lens compatible with the 645 lens system. Might Canon consider the same?
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1003/10031002pentax645d.asp

[alt4852]

You're missing the point and assuming the lenses might actually work with larger sensors if it weren't for the shape of the hood. :)

It's not about redesigning the hood, it's about redesigning the entire lens - it's a new lens system again and that's why it'll never happen, the hood doesn't even matter compared to that.

Theoretically I could see one scenario where current lenses might work with a square sensor, and that would be if Canon made a mirror-less camera like the recent ones from Olympus, Panasonic and Sony. But I still don't see it happening, the market for a square sensor is just too small.

we're not talking about a larger sensor, just a differently shaped one. you could hypothetically make a camera with a square sensor.. it'd just resemble a smaller form factor medium format camera. as i said though, lenses such as the 24-105L along with lens hoods influence the usability of a square sensor that fits with a 35mm lens' image circle.

[RDKirk]

we're not talking about a larger sensor, just a differently shaped one. you could hypothetically make a camera with a square sensor.. it'd just resemble a smaller form factor medium format camera. as i said though, lenses such as the 24-105L along with lens hoods influence the usability of a square sensor that fits with a 35mm lens' image circle.

Certainly it's possible to build a 24x24mm sensor EOS camera that would work with all current EF lenses. Such a thing has been done before--Minolta briefly marketed a 24x24mm film camera using their then-current lenses. It actually had removable 35mm film backs and looked like a tiny Hasselblad. I don't think anyone ever bought one.

The first problem was that it was very expensive--those film backs cost as much as a camera body and weren't much smaller. The second problem was that it decreased the size of an already small film format, once you cut a rectangular print out of the 24x24mm square.

We're getting such high quality out of small digital sensors that perhaps the second problem isn't so much an issue...for most people. But the only problem it's solving is relieving users from having to make "vertical or horizontal" decisions while shooting.

Yet...because the sensors are so good, if one is willing to use 24mm as the sensor height for a vertical picture, he can do that right now. Just keep the camera horizontal and crop the vertical out of it. A good many wedding photographers are already doing that with the 5D2. For those who use flash mounts, turning the camera vertically has always been a problem--now they don't bother.

[RDKirk]

Hmm.. Just found this. Looks like Pentax just unveiled a medium format lens compatible with the 645 lens system. Might Canon consider the same?
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1003/10031002pentax645d.asp

Pentax has been making medium format cameras for decades and had announced this one more than five years ago.

Canon doesn't make a medium format camera. They have never made a medium format camera. They have never announced a medium format camera. From the extant evidence, Canon is as likely to consider making refrigerators.

[hairy_moth]

Again, does some actually think replacing the plastic lens hood is what's stopping this? Seriously? :)

I never said that the hood is the reason that this won't happen.. just that the petal shaped hoods would not work with a taller sensor.

But I do doubt that this rumor has any basis in fact beyond, perhaps, someone in Canon Marketing may have asked some engineers "Could this work?"

[CyberDyneSystems]

Yes, canon made a new 70-200 2.8 for today's non-square sensors and now they are going to make people buy new lenses for a squared 1ds4.

Only the hood would impact it, if a square sensor was sized to fit the existing image CIRCLE (it's not an oval folks) then you would use existing lenses. We are talking about a square narrower than our existing FF rectangle, but also taller to fit the existing image circle.

I'm having trouble seeing what the benefit would be...

No portrait grip needed, 1 series goes on a diet, no need to flip the body or change grip, etc..
Also in camera cropping should go along with it, otherwise little to no advantage. the ability to with a button switch from full square, to horizontal rectangle to vertical,. both offering reduced res and thus reduced processing horsepower and thus faster shooting.. at the press of a button you get your 1.3x crop horizontal o=r vertical, and bam, the 1 series becomes one camera instead of two.

This was discussed before. Canon would have to completely redesign their lens and camera system to make this possible.

Could it be that someone, such as Canon, is playing around with the CR dork? Seeing what rediculous stuff he will publish?

It's been discussed here many times and the "rumor" (it was never a rumor, it was a wish list which began on POTN. I love it when stuff that starts here comes full circle and we get threads here pointing to Canon rumors!!!) :lol:
Thsi is why Canon rumors is such a silly site, at least here we new it was pie in the sky!!!

Again, the only way to do this would be to make a square sensor that would work with existing lenses. Saying that Canon would "need" to design new lenses is a totally false assertion.

You're missing the point and assuming the lenses might actually work with larger sensors if it weren't for the shape of the hood. :)

It's not about redesigning the hood, it's about redesigning the entire lens - it's a new lens system again and that's why it'll never happen, the hood doesn't even matter compared to that.

Theoretically I could see one scenario where current lenses might work with a square sensor, and that would be if Canon made a mirror-less camera like the recent ones from Olympus, Panasonic and Sony. But I still don't see it happening, the market for a square sensor is just too small.

No new lens system needed,. your on the right track re: mirror as the stumbling block, but there are mor eways to skin a cat. Don;t look at lens re-design, look at Mirror re-design. Consider a mirror that has two "shutter doors",. top and bottom, (or left and right for that matter) either way, you eliminate the one "existing lens" issue by making two smaller shutters. Complicated? Yes, i would not want to be the engineer to involved in making to work, but impossible, not by a long shot. I am sure with a short amount of thought other solutions could come to mind.

[CyberDyneSystems]

P.S. I totally doubt this rumor has any basis either.
Again it's just a regurgitation of some discussions that took place here dating back many years.

[tkbslc]

That can all be changed if a camera is designed from the ground up with a square sensor in mind.

That is a more likely reason. Also, done many lenses have baffels in them optimized for the 3:2 sensor?

Yes, many lenses have rectangle baffles. If I remember, the 28mm f1.8 even has a recatangle shape under the element up front:

http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/classics/eos/EF-lenses/EF28mmf18USM/CanonEF28mmf18_AB.jpg

[CyberDyneSystems]

Good point on the "baffles" (not sure if that's what they are called) ,. that would be a lens redesign for sure.
I think there are some that have this sort of rectangle near that back of the lens as well, flocked black "baffles" ...

[tkbslc]

Yeah, I don't know if baffle is the technical term either, but the 24-105 has one at the back:

http://media.the-digital-picture.com/Images/Other/Canon-24-105mm-f4-L-IS-Lens-Rear.jpg

[CyberDyneSystems]

Yeah, I'm not home so can't look at any lenses, but I feel like this is likely the case on a lot of lenses,. I suspect this is the make or break issue that we had not considered in detail...

...that certainly put's the kibosh on using many existing lenses, and thus, on the whole prospect.

[hairy_moth]

If this square sensor camera was created by Canon, with the intention of being able to use the same EF lenses as the current DSLRs, technical questions (like mirror and baffles) aside, this would also present a marketing nightmare for Canon. If some lenses worked and others didn't, each lens would now need to be marked with some indication as to whether or not it works with the square sensors. And currently the L lenses are packaged with a hood, many are petal shaped. Would Canon continue to include the (petal) hood with L lenses, or would you now need to purchase it separately, either for the standard or square sensor.

There are just too many issues for this to be a realistic product.

[tkbslc]

You know, why waste ANY of the optics? Lets use round sensors.....

[match14]

Taken from canonrumors comments.

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/1695/squarecmos.gif

Looks like the corners are chopped off on the bottom sensor. Seems a bit impractical to me.

[RDKirk]

A question Canon has probably explored is: Why did medium format give up the square format? I don't believe any camera manufacturer anywhere is currently marketing a square format...those that did have given it up.

The supposed benefits discussed here of a square sensor are even more keenly felt with medium format...yet they have given it up.

I suspect the market isn't really as keen for a square sensor as some here believe it would be.