How much PC for Digital

[leodgr81]

I am just starting in Digital photography after years of film. I purchased a 10D and now know I will need a new PC to be able to work effectively. My question is how much PC is needed. Processor, memory, hard drive, CD or DVD etc.

1. Is processor more important or memory.
( I would think that memory would be more important )
2. Definetly a CD- Burner to store images.
( does anyone use DVD ? )
3. Video card and monitor.
4. Software
( Adobe Photshop ? )

Like I said I am just starting and want to make sure I purchase what I need now and not make any costly mistakes.

Thanks for your help.

Leo

[bmccall]

Leo,
I am a computer tech by trade.
Here are my suggestions:
Avoid low end computers such as Gateway, Dell, HP and Compaq. By low end I mean any computer from those companies that cost under $1,500. They are very poor performing and buggy systems. I am speaking from 15 years experience working on various computers from many different work and play environments. Beware of the lower quality components that they use in such systems. Example - typical Gateway computer power supply - 85 watts, Dell 125 watts, IBM 135 watts (P4 specs require 300 watts). Get at least a 250 - 300 watt power supply. Get a 7200 RPM hard drive, not the 5400 rpm in the 'cheap' computers. Do not get the Intel Celeron P4 that they also put in the under $1,000 systems. Get the P4 chip with 512k cache. Get a quality video card - don't use the built in graphics controller on the cheap systems.
Do get as much memory as possible - 1GB at least.
Get at least a 2.4 Ghz chip. 80 gb hard drive or higher.
Flat panel monitors - Planar makes the best.
PhotoShop 7 a must!!

Lite-on makes the best cd burner drives.

Brad

[neil_r]

I pretty much agree with the above except for the Flat Panel Monitor, If your primary function is manipulating graphics and you are looking for high resolution accurate colours, a top spec CRT monitor beats the current breed of flat panels hands down.

I am using twin processors, 2 gig of memory with 128meg on the video card PS 7.1 flies, oh and a 20 inch Sony CRT monitor

Neil

[bmccall]

I forgot to mention the operating system.
XP Professional :-)

Brad

[PacAce]

leodgr81 wrote:
I am just starting in Digital photography after years of film. I purchased a 10D and now know I will need a new PC to be able to work effectively. My question is how much PC is needed. Processor, memory, hard drive, CD or DVD etc.

1. Is processor more important or memory.
( I would think that memory would be more important )
2. Definetly a CD- Burner to store images.
( does anyone use DVD ? )
3. Video card and monitor.
4. Software
( Adobe Photshop ? )

Like I said I am just starting and want to make sure I purchase what I need now and not make any costly mistakes.

Thanks for your help.

Leo

I have the Dimension 8200 from Dell and it's great! I thinks it's called the Dimension 8250 now. I use it for both photo editing and video editing. Never had a problem with it. The good thing about the Dell is that you can customize it to your heart's content (I think a lot of other computer companies are going that route now).

[Phil Hall]

I agree withe comments. I am still running a 1.8 P4 but have added extra RAM and a new video card (128 Mb RAM , up from 32. I now use a Sony Trinitron monitor for editing pictures. My experience with upgrades is that CPU speed does not matter as much as RAM or video cards. Also make sure you get a good printer (I use Epson 1270/2200, the firewire connection makes printing faster.

Phil Hall
Santa Ynez CA
D30;1D.

[photography By Evangelos]

Go for a MAC you will be very happy. Much less problems than with PC. All the photographers on the road in and out side of the U.S. are useing the MAC powerbooks. Evey one I have seen in my field of wedding photgraphy are useing MAC's as well. Also alot of the imaging magazines like Shutterbug,E-digital photo,and many others also use MAC. I still have a PC but I do not use it that much at all. I made the swith last year and have never looked back.
I currently have the PowerBook G4 and its the Fastest lap top I have ever used to date.

PowerBooK G4
60 GIG hard drive
1 GiG G4 processor
1GiG Ram
DVD-R/CD-R/DVD Super Drive Love it!
15" Wide display very large

It has all the performace of a desk top. And did I say it SUPER FAST. Also quality is very high on my powerbook G4. Good luck.

[dbarthel]

I strongly disagree with the last post. Nothing works right on my iMac flat panel (Epson 2200 dirver, Minolta scanner driver, no 3rd party D60 raw converters, etc. etc, etc.) The Mac may be the place to be for DV Video, but my experience is that the PC is a far richer platform for digital photography.

[leodgr81]

Thanks for all the info. From what I gather everyone would agree on Fast Processor P4, no Celeron. Lots of memory, at least 1GB. And at least 128MB Video. I also would say it would be better to custome build a plain white box to my specs than buy from a major PC maker like Dell or Gateway, etc. or am I wrong on this. As far as to PC or MAC, I think this is subjective, can't be quantified with nothing other than a comfort level and personal belief that one is better than the other. I think the jury will be out on this one for a long time. What about storage? Zip Dirves, CD, DVD ? Did not see anything. I would assume CD is the way to go.
My 10D arrives on tomorrow so now I have to order a PC. It's only money .........Right ????

Leo

[Ken Fong]

leodgr81 wrote:
Thanks for all the info. From what I gather everyone would agree on Fast Processor P4, no Celeron. Lots of memory, at least 1GB. And at least 128MB Video. I also would say it would be better to custome build a plain white box to my specs than buy from a major PC maker like Dell or Gateway, etc. or am I wrong on this. As far as to PC or MAC, I think this is subjective, can't be quantified with nothing other than a comfort level and personal belief that one is better than the other. I think the jury will be out on this one for a long time. What about storage? Zip Dirves, CD, DVD ? Did not see anything. I would assume CD is the way to go.
My 10D arrives on tomorrow so now I have to order a PC. It's only money .........Right ????

Leo

Overall, I agree with the previous tips. If cost is a factor, I would favor more memory over faster processors...Adobe Photoshop can always use more RAM.

For short-term working files, Zip Drives are convenient.
They should be considered if you do a lot of writing and re-writing (as with a floppy disk) and if you switch between PCs at home and at work or on campus...it doesn't matter so much if the computer at work/campus is a PC or MAC, the zip file seems to be universal. I've heard there are problems with the Zip Drive in the long-run, aka the "click of death" locking up the drive...but I have not experienced it yet. I would not use Zip drives for long-term storage.

For long-term storage, CD-R and even for CD-RW are the best value. Eventhough you can re-write on a CD-RW, you should only do it so many times, so CD-RW should not be treated in the same way as Zip drives or floppies...use it primarily for long-term archiving of your RAW files or finished work.

Sorry, I don't know anything about DVD storage.

[Roger_Cavanagh]

Leo,

You lucky dog! A new 10D and the money to buy a PC to match. :)

One more comment on video cards: don't bother with any of the fancy 3D grahics card. They won't help Photoshop performance - only playing Doom or Quake or some such divertissement. :)

WRT to storage: get more hard disk. I think someone mentioned 80 gig. I'd go for twice that (at least) but as 2x80gig not a single drive. Shooting raw format can give you large files sizes that can mount up quickly, so having plenty of spare space helps keep things organised and PC performance won't suffer from low disk space.

Running drives through Firewire would make it simpler to add more disk in the future.

Given the size of DVD disks, these are a better option than CD, but I would have a CD writer anyway. I'm not too sure what the current best pick for DVD's. I expect someone will offer a suggestion.

If you are going to do some serious Photoshop work, then a dual monitor system is a good thing.

Isn't great trying to spend someone else's money? :)

WRT to PC vs Mac: there was an article recently (for the life of me I cannot remember who did it) that compared Mac and PC for digicam work. The PC won by some margin. It is certainly true that software options are greater on the Windows platform. There are posts uncountable with PC users saying "isn't this software great?" and Mac users saying "yeah, but it's no good to me".

Enjoy!

[gyelland]

I do not want to get into a MAC or PC discussion, I have used both and they both have pros and cons. I personally use a Mac at the moment and am very happy, it does everything I need to at the moment.

The best advice is to buy the best you can afford at the time, and be sure it can do all you want at the moment. It may sound stupid advice but in 6 to 12 months it will be on its way to being obsolete, as with all technology. Buying the best you can afford will delay the obsolesence as long as possible. I take the approach of buying the best I can and keep this for at least 3-4 years. Then sell (for not much usually) and then buy the best again. This way you get the maximum return from your investment.

Photoshop is a must for me and photography, so plenty if RAM is necessary.

I am currenty using laptops, all other devices are USB or Firewire, e.g. CD ROM burner, Video capture, external hard drive, etc,
I can upgrade the laptop without changing the devices. In general the external interfaces (firewire, usb) are changing slower and more backward compatible than internal bus architecture.

Another good approach is to find a small local computer dealer that also does repairs and ask their advice, they always have someone that is an expert and their usually know the common failures. You will tend to get better more educated advice than the larger computer super stores.

[PacAce]

leodgr81 wrote:
I also would say it would be better to custome build a plain white box to my specs than buy from a major PC maker like Dell or Gateway, etc. or am I wrong on this.Leo
Leo,

No matter what, if you're not technically computer savvy, do NOT get cutstom built noname brand white boxes. You'll encounter too many incompatibility issue on either the hardware or software front and can get very frustrating to trouble shoot. Stick with the upper end models of the likes as Dell, IBM, Apple, etc.

As for DVD, I have a DVD burner which I use for burning movie DVD. I use the Pioneer DVD-R/W drives (DV-A04), the same DVD burner that's in the Apple PowerMacs. Sony and a few other companies make DVD+R/W drives and Panasonic makes the DVD-RAM/R drives. Three different formats with arguments for and against each one.

[Dan_mobile]

This is a fun debate! I remember quarrelling about the advantages of CPM over PC-DOS. O’ how time flies! Anyway, for those of us who don’t mind playing around configuring systems, a good Gateway, Dell, HP or whatever can be a great buy. I agree and stay away from homebrew storefront retail white boxes. Not unless it’s your hobby! My personal preference (which may not be yours) is Compaq (now HP) for back office servers and Dell for the desktops. Over the last four years I have purchased over $2 million in servers and desktops and all are extremely reliable. I upgraded my home system to a Dell 2.4 Gig Pentium 4, 1 Gig memory, 128 Meg video, two 120 Gig hard drives, DVD-R/ RW, and all the support stuff for $1,700. But, with Photoshop 7, Windows XP Pro, MS Office Professional, C++ .Net, Viso 2002 Pro, and MS Visual Studio .Net, add another couple of grand. This was a replacement box so the software licenses were ported for free.

[John-M]

I am surprised that no one has mentioned that it is best to have two hard drives (in a PC). Use one as the windows swap dive and use the other as the Photoshop swap drive. This increases the speed of processing large files greatly.

I just built a workstation for use with PS 7 and AutoCAd 2004 (another processor and memory hog). Anyone who tells you you cant build a good machine locally doesn't know much about PC's. You can build a better machine than ANY store preconfigured machine if you know your stuff. You can use the perfect products in each piece

I chose twin 80Gig WD harddrives with 8megs of cache.
an Intel MB, 1 Gig of PC1066 (Rambus) ram. An ATI 128meg Video card with both DVI and VGA out (allows digital hook up to a flat panel) and allows dual mointor hookup.(This card sucks for gaming but is a great 2D rendering card). Matrox also has cards allowing dual monitor.

This machine has no speakers, no excess junk, it is a pure business workstation. I'll end up with $1600 in it.
And it will rock - Knowing the price\vavue points in components is important - It is $380 more to increase to a 3.0mz P4- with Hyperthreading - Not worth it to me - I chose more ram and faster harddrives instead.

JohnM


I added a Firewire USb2.0 card
I added DVD - Read only and CDRW (single unit). I have a server that I can backup to via network). This workstation is running Win2000Pro with SP6 -

[Dans_D60]

John-M wrote:
...Anyone who tells you you cant build a good machine locally doesn't know much about PC's. You can build a better machine than ANY store preconfigured machine if you know your stuff. You can use the perfect products in each piece

JohnM


I added a Firewire USb2.0 card
I added DVD - Read only and CDRW (single unit). I have a server that I can backup to via network). This workstation is running Win2000Pro with SP6 -

John M:

I respectfully agree and disagree on the points you bring up. Yes, you definitely can build a box on your own time. And, from what it appears, you did a respectable job. But, I would rather spend my time taking photos instead of configuring and troubleshooting computer boxes. Not to say it’s wrong and if you enjoy it … go for it. Nonetheless, I sleep better knowing I could have a full 3-year warranty and a 2.66 Pentium 4, 1 Gig of PC1066 memory, DVD+RW/+R Drive w/CD-RW, 128mb DDR ATI Radeo 9700 TX, and --- I completely agree John – Dual 120 Gig disk drives for $2,200 from Dell (or HP, or Gateway, or…). Yes it costs about 30% more. However, time and peace-of-mind are valuable – at least to me! And as far as the OS goes … sure Win2K pro is a fine OS. I personally find it too “NT” like for desktops. Of course, Win2K Server is well suited for Server applications and SQL OLTP engines, but, XP Pro is my preferred desktop – at least until Win3K is released …my thoughts….Dan
http://www.pettusphoto.com

[hurry]

Laughing about these posts.

Do you want to start cruise missiles with your machines?

Hightech-freaks with endless money?

I use Win2000, AMD 2000+, 512MB RAM, a lot of HD space, DVD/CDR writer for making video & photo. All works well.

[John-M]

Dans_D60 wrote:
I respectfully agree and disagree on the points you bring up. But, I would rather spend my time taking photos instead of configuring and troubleshooting computer boxes. I sleep better knowing I could have a full 3-year warranty and a 2.66 Pentium 4, 1 Gig of PC1066 memory, DVD+RW/+R Drive w/CD-RW, 128mb DDR ATI Radeo 9700 TX, and --- I completely agree John – Dual 120 Gig disk drives for $2,200 from Dell sure Win2K pro is a fine OS. I personally find it too “NT” like for desktops.
Dan


Dan,

We both agree on a lot more then we disagree on. Buy or build, it's a personal thing. I'm an old school geek boy and love to do it. That $2200 Dell is a fine machine at a good price - I'd spend almost $1900 matching those specs . We both speced almost identical boxs. They are in what I call the "sweet spot" a good price\value point.

As to the poster that asked about our Cruise missle C&C capability - I suggest the Boeing GPS Sat uplink card and the latest version of Vice City - Bagdad -(Shock and Awe V2.2). That interfaces nicely with the Beta version of the block 3 Tactical Tomahawk (see new specs posted below)

Features: Tomahawk® Block II uses an Inertial Navigation System (INS) aided by Terrain Contour Matching (TERCOM) and Digital Scene Matching Area Correlation (DSMAC). Block III adds a Global Positioning Satellite guidance capability to the existing Block II guidance systems.

Tactical Tomahawk®, the next generation Tomahawk® cruise missile adds the capability to reprogram the missile while in-flight to strike any of 15 pre-programmed alternate targets or redirect the missile to any Global Positioning System (GPS) target coordinates. It also will be able to loiter over a target area, and with its on-board camera, will allow the warfighting commanders to assess target battle damage. Launched from the Navy's forward-deployed ships and submarines, Tactical Tomahawk®, will provide a greater flexibility to the on-scene commander. Tactical Tomahawk is projected to enter service in 2004.



(I was a beta tester of this new system - but they took my toy away when I took out my neighbors Hummer by mistake- I told them it was that damm buggy beta DSMAC module. It locked in on an old "AL Gore for President" bumper sticker and I couldn't overide quick enough- I never really did like that neighbor anyway)

[Jorge]

Agree with Hurry

Unless you wan't to edit photos while using your computer to remote-control a medium size military operation you don't NEED all that power.

I have used a pentium II, 300-something MhZ processor, 64 mb RAM and 3 Gb HDD to process my D30 RAW files using PS6 and Pekkas Actions. It's slow as hell but it does actually work!

Just an example of what can be done - I would not recomend you to localize this kind of setup at your local antique dealer.

[John-M]

Jorge wrote:I have used a pentium II, 300-something MhZ processor, 64 mb RAM and 3 Gb HDD to process my D30 RAW files using PS6 and Pekkas Actions. It's slow as hell but it does actually work!



Jorge,

I agree it can be done with an older machine - I have need for a fast machine because I work with AutoCAd some days as much as 10 or 12 hours, If I can regen a drawing in .1sec vs 1 sec or insert a block from our symbol library in 1/2 the time- it makes a real differance in productivity - In other words time is money and when we have a rush job it can mean making a deadline vs missing one.

If you only use your machine for a few hours\minutes a day - the time savings may not be worth it - but hey if I have $8k in camera equipment another 2K for a system is not unreasonable.

Dual processors w\ ultra SCSI drives - hot swap redundant power supplies and 4gig of ram might be a little overkill but a good $1500 to $2000 system is a great choice if you are buying a new PC to use with PS7.

[hurry]

I think, EACH today-standard-PC is overkill, you must not refurbish an old Commodore Pet ... for photo/video take the next best computer, no double cpu or other funny things.

You also do not need 1 GB RAM or a gamers vga card for $ 699.

People only satisfied with $ 10.000 photo equipment believe, their PC also must be in the $ 5999 range.

I know friends, shooting with $ 500 cameras better pictures then others with long epilogs, showing their "Look, what I have"-equipment.

Look image galleries ... and be astonished WHY some guys are using cams/lenses for $ 8.999 and not for $ 499! Less would be better :-)

[dbarthel]

Re: How much? If you're capturing raw data and processing in 16bit, then there is no too much, especially with 6-12mb raw files. 6mb raw produces 36mb tiff files, and 12bm raw produces 72mb tiff files. With a 1Ds and raw processing, 2gb main memory is not out of the question, certainly 1gb with 6mb raw files. Also consider raid 0 for fast I/O of these big files. I'd worry more about memory and I/O than processor speed, anything over 2.4ghz (now the standard low end) should work for a processor.

Dan

[John-M]

hurry wrote:
People only satisfied with $ 10.000 photo equipment believe, their PC also must be in the $ 5999 range.

I know friends, shooting with $ 500 cameras better pictures then others with long epilogs,



In Canon equipment $6 to 10k is not a lot - How about one 1Ds + any lens and a 550ex ($10K?) My 10D, 24-70L 16-35L, 28-135, 550ex ,bg-ed a couple of big CF cards and an Epson 2200 w/ PS7 = Maybe $7k

Sure my A2e took great pictures - but it was time to step up to digital. In the hands of an real artist a G3 can sometimes kick my butt. This is a hobby I enjoy and if I can buy the "right" equipment I am not doing it to impress this board or my friends. I enjoy shooting and feel comfortable that if my shots are not good, I can't blame the equipment.

Every post here was correct in some fashion - slow machine or fast machine - Both can work - and both can make beautiful pictures - Which is the common ground we all share. I guess my final answer to the original question of " How much PC for Digital" is whatever you can afford and feel that it will be worth it to YOU.


Peace -

John Meara

[John-M]

Dans_D60 wrote:
And, from what it appears, you did a respectable job. l 3-year warranty and a 2.66 Pentium 4, 1 Gig of PC1066 memory, DVD+RW/+R Drive w/CD-RW, 128mb DDR ATI Radeo 9700 TX, and --- I completely agree John – Dual 120 Gig disk drives for $2,200 from Dell (or HP, or Gateway, or…). And as far as the OS goes … sure Win2K pro is a fine OS. I personally find it too “NT” like for desktops.


Dan,

I have to admitit I lied earlier, I couldn't help myself

My machine ended up with a 3.06 P4 CPU w/ Hyperthreading running on XP Pro - used the Asus Ti4200 8X Vid card 128ddr dual VGa and DVI out. The MB had 4 usb 2.O connectors so I added a firewire card. Dual 120G HDs with 8mb cache

I didn't know that W2K does not impliment Hyper Threading but XP Pro does and PS uses it. After using XP for a few days I really do like it.

All I can say is this box is a "screamer"- I ended up at $2300 with a DSL router and a 1250VA 670watt UPS, all in all not a bad deal - (and I even had to buy XP PRO - instead of installing W2K Pro which I alreday had)

John Meara

[DAMphyne]

Greetings Everyone,
I'm new to this forum, but I thought I'd add my 1.5 cents worth concerning the PC question. Currently I use an Old Gateway PII 400 w/256 ram,I guess it's a little slow, but I grew up working in a darkroom, and the slowness is definetly relative. I remember spending hours in the darkroom on Saturdays, only to start again on Sunday to get the perfect re-print. Of course the next thing that happend was, someone would want a copy, Good Luck.
The Best thing (other than saving TIME) about digital is the ability to reproduce the print at a later time, and they look the same as the one You made last week.
Get a computer Guru like I did. Find some Master of computer understanding to make your computer work like you want. The computer is just a tool to make your images Be what You want.
Don't get side-tracked by the tools, taking pictures is really what it's all about.
I use a CDwriter to store files, always make 2 copies, (you never know when one will get stepped on). Also I've found that it's a good idea to "confirm" that your images were written properly, check them on a second computer if possible. I use Thumbs Plus to confirm the files, if you render the thumbnails, it will display any "Bad" files.
Good luck with your new stuff, I haven't used my film cameras since I went digital, You'll know why soon.


http://www.damphyne.com/