Disappointment with D30

[rodevans]

I appear to be alone. I purhcased a D30 yesterday and bursting with enthusiasm charged the batteries, read the manual (excellent) etc etc and banged of a few pictures. I used an existing Canon EF 28-80mm lens.

I decided to so do some fully auto and some on manual settings, aperture priority etc.

I loaded them onto my pc and was dumbstruck when I saw the results:

. a picture of my three dogs taken from approx 6ft using the on camera flash was totally underexposed... so dark I could see no detail on the black labs

. in the garden (approx 100yds long) with the setting on landscape the grass was totally blurred and without detail and on the tress approx. 15-20yds away I could not distinguish individual leaves

. with my wife posing the on camera flash would not provide enough light for an evenly lit full length shot

. and with an off camera flash (seetings manual 1/60th and f11) there was no detail - her hair was a blurred mess with everything either out of focus (why??) but the exposure was ok (lens was set on AF as I can not see well enough for manual focus!!)

. colours were accurate but flat and dull

. there was no contrast

I tried different file sizes i.e. large fine and small fine giving images sizes of between 600kb and 1.2mb but none were any good.

I bought this camera to step up from an Olympus C3030 - also 3mpixel - which I have always used with an image size of 700kb and have got excellent results in ALL situations with prints upto and including A3 being pin sharp.

SO why change... cos the Olympus does not work well in studio with studio flash.

So clearly I am either doing something wrong (and yes I know I will have to tinker the image in Photoshop to get it just the way I want) but the straight image SHOULD be more or less acceptable straight from the camera.

The retailer simply says he will give me money back if I am not satisfied and agreed the images were c**p. He did not offer a replacement camera or suggest anything else... just try some more and see what happens.

So almost £2000 out of pocket and a camera that gives worse results than a disposable film camera.... what do I do....

Can anyone help me please??

thanks

[Pekka]

Can you share us some example photos?

D30 images straight from the camera are equal to negatives - they are not supposed to look "vivid, sharp and fully saturated" as in PS cameras. With good lenses and shooting technique they can be amazing from the moment you open them, but the strong point of D30 is that you can shoot in RAW, and work on linear photo which let's you decide ALL aspects of basic image processing: saturation, levels, sharpening - like you'd do in a photo lab (they always tweak your photos there btw, you just don't never see the originals).

Open http://photography-on-the.net/D30/photo.php?photo=10&size=4 and click a link "standard workflow" to see how I work with gallery photos. Most of the stuff is automated in Photoshop 6 - I just press some action buttons.

Take time to learn how to handle RAW files, it brings D30 to life and to new level of performance.

About the sharpness problems - remember that the hand holding rule (1/focal lenght) is (1/(focal lenght*1.6) with D30 - and even more if you don't have too much experience with handholding big SLR's. Also, the Depth of Field is now "real" compared to almost infinite DoF of PS cameras (Oly 3000), which means you should take some time to think where to focus and how DoF is affected by your lens, aperture and distance.

Don't give up yet.

[rodevans]

Pekka

Thank you for your helpful reply. One key point which I had not appreciated was the (1/focal length * 1.6) for the D30. I was using a Canon EF 35-80mm lens so for most of the shots I was ok. Those with the off-camera flash I used a shutter speed of 1/60th as indicated by the manual so I was close to the limit.

DoF is interesting but with a relatively short focal length (say around 50mm) at f11 something should be in focus! Or was it camera shake....

I am used to handling large cameras having used 6x6 and 645 in the studio (hand held) without a problem. I do a lot of my work in B&W and develop / print my own so am used to working with a negative as well.

I will post some images on my web site tonight when I get back to my pc. Please do not comment on composition etc. (!) as I was just grabbing to see how the camera felt and operated.

I will not give up this easily either.

[speedyh]

I can understand him, because when you spend alot of money for a SLR-Camera you dont want to have worser pictures than with other Digicams. The Camera does not say, that it realy needs a workflow for the outcomming pictures.
I use my D30 since dec 2000 and now after 1000s of pics I am getting better to handle the workflow. That means, you realy need for quality good pictures alot of experience and basic knowlege for colormanagement. I hope that Canon will work on better technics to satisfy more users with Digicams like D30.

This is my opinion I feel to write.

This forum is a great. It helped me alot not to get too frustrated.

Steve / Germany

[subq]

oops I replied to this over in another forum and told him to check out Pekka's gallery for a wide range of photos where the D30 performs just fine heheh.

Actually I think canon did it right with the D30. If you want something with less processing and more in-camera processing I think you should be looking at a Canon g2 or maybe some of the nikon coolpix cameras.

I haven't tried it but you could probably set the D30 options to high sharpening and some of the other options to acheive a more finished image right out of the camera. I prefer to tweak the image in PS myself.

[BobbyC]

I was quite suprised with the performance of the internal flash on mine. The 1st day I had it I was shooting all over the house just to learn the camera and got very suprising results.

I did find, even after tweaking in PS, I HAD to set my 1270 to 1440 dpi to get quality. When I scanned negs, 720 or 1440 seemed to give the same results, not true with the files from this camera.

As for color, I can't say enough about that. I did a wedding 2 weeks ago, totally digital. My wife took some candid shots at the reception using iso 400, I was set for iso 400 as well and there is no comparison, the D30 was much more vibrant and saturated than the film.

I use normal sharpening, normal saturation and normal contrast, RAW and make any adjustments in PS.

HTH's
Bobby

[Pekka]

rodevans wrote:
I will post some images on my web site tonight when I get back to my pc. Please do not comment on composition etc. (!) as I was just grabbing to see how the camera felt and operated.

I will not give up this easily either.

Great to see you have the right spirit! :) I'm sure we can work out if D30 is a camera that works for you or not

Pekka

[rodevans]

Many thanks to all of for your help and advice.

Well I am still trying and things are getting better.

I set up my little studio last night and under more controlled conditions managed to improve results. Not as good as I would like but better that the evneing before!

A couple of questions:

Many people have been critical of the Canon 35-80 lens I accpet it may not be the most expensive etc. but it has given me excellent service in film with many many pin sharp prints up to 20x16 in B&W. So why is it being questioned here. I used manaul focus last night (which is tricky for me as my eyesight is not good) and the results were better... SO I guess it is AF??

On the external flash, I can not get the PC socket to work. I have a Metz gun and if I plus into an adaptor on the hot shoe it works fine but not from the PC. Does this indicate the polarity is the wrong way round?

And finally - I have other Canon models and use the remote release - I can not find an equivalent on the D30 - am I missing something?

Thanks again for all your help.....

Rod

[Pekka]

PC socket problem could be a polarity problem or the cable connector is worn.

I have heard one or two reports where the camera actually had trouble doing AF to the correct focus point (it focused a bit off by same amount), can't recall if this happened with a specific lens or with all lenses - if this is the case with your camera then you could try to get it repaired or better still get another unit to test.

It seems that Canon factory has a tendency to calibrate D30 towards underexposure, to avoid blowing highlights. If you think that's the case you can get it re-calibrated (I did take it to Canon and it helped - they said some shutter speeds were a bit off and fixed that).

For very useful E-TTL flash usage info see http://www.dpreview.com/learn/Cameras/Canon_D30_with_550EX_01.htm

The D30 remote socket is "N3 type" whatever that means. You can use a wire remote or an expensive wireless system. Haven't tried any of those but I'll get a remote wire next week as it's a good time to shoot some nightshots again here in Finland.

The lens quality differences can be seen very clearly with D30 images on a computer screen as it blows single pixels to 96dpi for a very clear evaluation. Most cheap lenses are quite soft at open apertures, and will have distortion and flare, so that's why D30 users mostly recommend the best (L) lenses (which is really not a bad idea at all if you think about the future cameras, but gets really expensive).

[JCDoss]

speedyh wrote:
I can understand him, because when you spend alot of money for a SLR-Camera you dont want to have worser pictures than with other Digicams. The Camera does not say that it realy needs a workflow for the outcomming pictures...

Steve / Germany


I understand that RAW is the ultimate power in digital photography, but I have always believed that Canon should have given more power to the in-camera processing of JPGs for those who don't always want to futz around with PS. IMO, if you choose to shoot JPG, that would logically mean that you want the most usable "out of the camera" photos as possible. OTOH, if you choose to shoot RAW, that would logically mean that you want to produce the BEST PHOTOS POSSIBLE which requires PS manipulation. Seems to me that there is very little difference between the three sharpening settings available on the D30, and they should be named "none," "hardly any," and "a tiny little bit more." I understand the irreversible evils of over-sharpening, but it shouldn't be much of a risk for Canon to have incorporated a level of in-camera sharpening to at least rival the P/S cameras that people like Rod are now thinking are superior! (no offense, Rod)

In short, I don't think it would have crippled the D30 in any way to have incorporated a "beefier" in-camera processing routine. For those times when I'm shooting a birthday party, and not a masterpiece, it would save some time.

JCDoss

[rodevans]

Once again thanks for all the helpful advice given by all of you - and for the time taken to both read and reply to me.
First off I have now experimented some more and will get some images posted (!) as soon as time permits... Some slight improvement in results are heartening but a big big drawback is that I can not use RAW images.

The reason is simple - to the best of my knowledge (and all my attempts as well) the CRW files are Canon specific and can only be read by the software provided by Canon. If I open that software and load it - I can not return my camera as I have used the license. So a little quandary for me there.

I am working with the images and getting some imrpovement from the out of the camera images. I have not tried variously Canon EF 35-80, Tokina 70-210 and a Sigma 70-300 APO macro.
The AF improved on the Sigma - I had already switched to centre spot focus and re-frame techinques.

I have also switched to centre-weighted (or is it called spot) metering and this improved the under-exposure issue a little. I have tended now towards setting the camera up metering off the camera and reseting manually. Can anyone guide me - I am getting roughly 1 - 1.5 stop adjustment to get the correct exposure - is this the norm?

Certainly - camera shake is an issue!! Tho' I have to say I have used all these lenses on my other Canon kit without any problems whatsoever. Using a tripod is fine for some work but for other where you are on the move or, as with sports photogrpahy, walking up and down the touch line this is not practical (neither is manual focus always possible!).

On the printing I print to either an Epson 1160 or 1290. I am getting a bluish tinge when I print though this is not apparent on the screen image. The printer works fine for all other images I have (over 3,500 from the P&S). Any thoughts there?

So...conclusion time.

Lens appears to be an issue. As one of the reasons I selected the D30 was to make use of existing equipment that has served me well it appears that my lenses are no good after all. Strange when I have shot some 10,000 plus B*W images..... of all kinds from macro to long zoom...?

Use RAW - well I'd love to but that will burn my bridges. If I do, I can not return the camera if I am still unhappy. Unless you can show me other ways to work around the licensing implications and open these propietary CRW files.

Colour - is getting better.

The camera works well in studio conditions but... in the open is still poor.

So more work for me and testing over the next week or so before I make my call!!

Thanks again for all your help... all appreciated and will be applied!!

Thanks

[Pekka]

rodevans wrote:
Once again thanks for all the helpful advice given by all of you - and for the time taken to both read and reply to me.
First off I have now experimented some more and will get some images posted (!) as soon as time permits... Some slight improvement in results are heartening but a big big drawback is that I can not use RAW images.

The reason is simple - to the best of my knowledge (and all my attempts as well) the CRW files are Canon specific and can only be read by the software provided by Canon. If I open that software and load it - I can not return my camera as I have used the license. So a little quandary for me there.


No need to open those packages!

You can download a desktop RAW decoder driver from http://www.usa.canon.com/support/files/psshared.html

It's part of the USB driver package.

If you have Windows machine, you can get a nice RAW preview/decoding setup by using BreezeBrowser from http://www.breezesys.com (use Ctrl+Tab for full screen preview there). One free decoder/thumbnailer is Yarc ( http://www.roava.net/~henderbc/yarc.htm ), a DOS program, but I use it for it's simplicity (just drop a folder of RAW's over its icon) for thumbnails, then I convert RAW to TIFF from windows (uses the driver I mentioned).

[rodevans]

Well things are moving on somewhat. I have done a bit more 'testing' and have managed to get some better pictures - at least from an exposue and sharpness stand point.

One funny.... out in the garden, late afternoon bright sun photographing flowers in close up. When viewing some white outbuilding sinthe background appeared (totally out of focus) but printed I noticed a bluish tinge on the white bits. Could this be caused by not having the correct White balance settings?

I have decided to purchase the cheap 50mm f1.8 II lens to see if that improves the sharpness.

I have also discovered that I need to load the new version of the firmware (1.02?). Is this likely to change things? Is it something we should do to keep current anyway?

So - thanks for all your help.... 48 hours and some 300 shots later I am getting better results and while I still have a way to go, confidence is growing....

[QLiu]

The lens (EF 35-80mm zoom) you have is a garbage. I got the same one which came as a pakage with my EOS 630 body about 10 years ago. The images shot with films from this lens were beyond comparion even with those from point and shoot cameras with respect to sharpness and color. It's been sitting somewhere in my closet colleting dust since then.

One thing you definately want to do immediately is to buy a quality lens. With a camera like D30, it's worth investing more on lens to make full use of its capability.

[pauljmurphy@ntlworld.com]

Hi,

I read with interest your article about your new D30. I must say I experienced the same shocked emotions the second I took it out and used it. Whatever you do, do not send it back! This camera will make you money quicker than you can spend it. However, this will only happen when you learn it's weaknesses and how to overcome them.

Firstly, there is a disgraceful focussing problem with this very expensive pro camera. When you focus at wide angle the camera does not and never will get it right. Unfortunately, you need to zoom in at maximum range and re-compose back to wide to get focussed. While this is a pain, it works beautifully and the images are pin-sharp. Also, use the centre of the three focussing selectors as a permanent setting - works great. I use a sigma 24-70 and get magic results. Also, the first real shock was the soft images which appear on the lcd screen. It is widely reported and covered that this is deliberate on the part of Canon, and I agree with the decision. You do get to know when an image is out of focus or sharp using the lcd. When loaded into ps the images practically jump out at you after un-sharp masking.

The bottom line is that I work as a freelance photographer and much of my work is published in a local newspaper. I recently had my first front-cover and was delighted. Although the image wasn't the most exciting, it was sharp, perfectly exposed and hit the spot. All other images have been reproduced in colour and b&w in various parts of the paper and without a doubt the quality is exceptional.

Stick with it!

Paul.

[Roger_Cavanagh]

Rod,

WRT the blue tinge you mention, are you using an ICC profile for the D30? If you use Photoshop, you can assign a colour profile the first time you load an image (converted from raw using BreezeBrowser, of course :) ) that will do some colour management for the camera. I assume (but don't know for certain) that other editing packages have the same capability. There are several profiles available for free from www.fredmiranda.com. If you are a PS user, I recommend you have a look at the other stuff he has on his site.

I have only been using a digital camera since last Christmas and the D30 since March. While digital does get rid of the the darkroom and the need for stinky and dangerous chemicals, it does not - especially with the D30, as many previous posters have commented - remove the requirement for some kind of "development" process. Not only do you have to worry about colour profiles for the camera, you also need to have profiles for the printer and even different papers in the same printer!

Also I endorse the view that you should put good glass on the D30. I went through some of the same concerns you did. Eventually, I decided that lenses were a problem. I have invested so far in only one L lens - the fantastic 100-400 IS - and am saving hard for more. :) It doesn't make sense to put a crappy lens on a $2000 camera ($2600, if, like me, you bought in the UK :( ). The lenses will always be good for the next Canon camera.

Stick with it,

Roger

[rodevans]

With regard to the lens I have certainly noticed the foibles around the wide and zom end of the lenses and had worked out the same solution - zoom in, focus and then re-frame the image. A pain but....

I have also - on the advice of many - invested in the Canon 50mm f1.8 II for my studio work. The cost is enormous (!!) at £80 but if it resolves one of the issues it will be money well spent.

I will certainly visit the Fred Miranda site to see what I can find. I am a PS user tho' am only now beginning to learn the best way to manage the images. So ... more to learn.... but that's the fun part!

One question - I assume that if the image is to be used only on a website and is not intended for printing - is the Large Fine jpeg mode adequate to start off with?

Thanks for everything... off to Fred M's site now!!

BTW - do not tell the wife I have just spent another £100!! Life is hard enough as it is.... *s

[Marignan_1515]

Hi

With regard to the poor sharpeness of the D30 pictures, I take this point as an advantage from a post-enhancement stand point:
Indeed, I've notice that the enhancement process (w/paintshoppro for instance) gives you better results if you start with a 'soft' picture. Then after, just resize them and perform a 'sharpen'.

I'm using also my Olympus C3040 which is much more sharp and deliver very colorfull and nice pictures.

It's easier to get a good picture with the C3040 than with the D30.
However, to get 'THE' picture, D30 is just perfect.

So far, I would say that 80% of the pictures taken with my Oly-C3040 are great versus. 30% with Canon-D30, but within this 30%, some of them are really very good.

Here are some samples:
only D30 pics: http://jweber1.free.fr/00_divers_d30.html
a mix of D30 (10x-xxxx_img.jpg) and C3040 (a90xxxxx.jpg): http://jweber1.free.fr/17_arizona.html
Of course, your feedback are welcome

Jack

[Pekka]

rodevans wrote:
One question - I assume that if the image is to be used only on a website and is not intended for printing - is the Large Fine jpeg mode adequate to start off with?

My view on that is that I shoot always in RAW because you never know when you hit the jackpot and get THAT photo. Also, you have much better chances of rescuing a shot (wrong exposure, bad WB) in RAW than in JPEG.

You can always do low quality versions of high quality original but not vice versa.

Pekka

[benamen]

Just playing!

[nosquare2003]

Just playing!

Don't waste your time -- it's no fun.

[Toogy]

Here I am reading this post, thinking why did someone pay 2000 pounds for a D30, and where did they find one NEW.
Then I realize that this thread is over 3 years old :roll:

[booggerg]

I was saying to my self ... who are these people posting dead links!?!

[mdude85]

I stepped up to a D30 after heavy use of a Nikon Coolpix 2200, the lowest low end PS that Nikon makes. SLR cameras definitely take a little getting used to in a few basic instances:

- the pictures are usually not as sharp as those you see with a point and shoot. This is because point and shoot cameras use sharpening in the camera, but the sharpening ends up looking fake and overdone. People have complained about "soft" images out of the D30 and I can't say I totally disagree with this complaint.

- the best color performance I have seen from the D30 comes when it handles lighting situations that point and shoot cameras can't touch ... these are generally low light situations, or situations where there are different types of lighting all in one setting, like light filtering in through windows or with sunsets. Here the D30 is an excellent performer, if you can get it to autofocus.

But I haven't really experienced any of the other problems you have.... some of them just might be due to normal operator error. I remember when I had my D30 for the first few weeks I didn't know how to use it, so my pictures didn't come out very well. Now I can control the look of many photographic situations. It just takes practice.