Ferrarigate part 2

[Lowner]

Ferrari managed to turn a very successful 1 - 2 finish at the German GP into a total media disaster, didn't they. What is it they don't understand about the media, who will rightly milk this for everything they can get from it?

How absolutely stupid, having lucked into first and second places at turn 1, they had absolutely no need to have done anything. I hope the FIA throw the book at them. The problem with that is Jon Todt, who is the person probably responsible for the 1982 version!

To say that neither Massa or his engineer are exactly pleased with the decision would be an understatement.

Right, what would be a reasonable punishment? Strip the team of this weeks results, maybe ban them from two more events as well? Oh, and sack Domenicalli.

*Later edit: According to the news, they have been fined £100,000! Chicken feed. Thats just like saying "naughty boys". It's either legal, in which case the rules need changing, or it's not (and the rules presently say its not) and they should be properly punished.

[GSH]

$100K is the maximum "on the spot" fine that the Stewards can impose.

It has also been referred to the World Motorsport Council for "further consideration".

[KennyG]

$100K is loose change to Ferrari. They should be stripped of the positions/points and lose 5 places in the next race.

Ferrari have always assumed they run F1, not the FIA and have had "special" treatment for many years. Unless they are severely punished they will simply go back to their old cheating ways and F1 will suffer as a result.

WIth Todt's hand on the F1 steering wheel I doubt we will see justice.

[Bosscat]

$100K is loose change to Ferrari. They should be stripped of the positions/points and lose 5 places in the next race.

Ferrari have always assumed they run F1, not the FIA and have had "special" treatment for many years. Unless they are severely punished they will simply go back to their old cheating ways and F1 will suffer as a result.

WIth Todt's hand on the F1 steering wheel I doubt we will see justice.

Nail on the head!!

[Lowner]

I know we will will never see justice. It would have been nice to see Todt as poacher tuernd gamekeeper, but its never going to happen.

So expect to see other teams openly doing the same in the near future. Until yesterday at least it was done discretely, but Ferrari don't seem to understand the word.

Actually this is Ferrarigate part 3, not 2. I'd forgotten an ocassion at the AI Ring when Eddy Irvine was told to have a "braking problem" so Schuie could catch up half a lap and overtake to take the win.

[Geejay]

If the FIA do nothing, what price flaunting other rules?

Either the rules apply or they don't. I think it'll be interesting to see how it turns out. Maybe the teams can just pay up-front for rules infingments, 100k for issuing team orders, 50k for every 1kg under-weight, 200k to run an extra qualifying lap after the checker has dropped...

What a crock!!

Ferrari have ruined a great race where Alonso went unpunished for a crap start and ends up with big smug grin on his mug knowing that his contract is better than Filipe. Massa and the paying public have been ripped off. The sponsors can only stand around and look at their shoes instead of celebrating a great victory.

[Lowner]

Maybe its the sponsors who need to understand the damage been caused by this. Because thats were the real muscle lies. Forget Jon Todt, he was the choice of the last incumbant and look at the mess he created.

[GSH]

The Sponsors don't care. Alonso can't do any wrong in the eyes of Santander and the Spanish fans and Phillip Morris (Marlboro) were there right through the *cheating* Schumacher years.

[Richard Brewer]

Just posted on f1.com
"Following their controversial one-two result at the German Grand Prix, Ferrari have been fined US$100,000 by the FIA after race stewards deemed they had breached sporting regulations and the case has been referred to the World Motor Sport Council".

Ken you are spot on, small change to them...........

[GSH]

Just posted on f1.com
"Following their controversial one-two result at the German Grand Prix, Ferrari have been fined US$100,000 by the FIA after race stewards deemed they had breached sporting regulations and the case has been referred to the World Motor Sport Council".

Ken you are spot on, small change to them...........

That's at least 24 hours old.

I'll say it again, the Stewards can not impose a higher financial penalty. Breaches of the Sporting Regs and Disrepute charges can only be dealt with by the WMSC. Small change it may be, but those are the facts.

[Bernardo]

Guys, I am Italian and i am a ferrari fan since I was 1... I have found it it disgusting even because i put a bet on massa to win the race at 12/1... So very upsetting... That said I think it is part of formula 1 and there is not much that people can do... Jenson save the tires or lewis save the petrol has the same meaning otherwise you will get a Vettel - Webber situation ...

In regards of the fine 100 K for ferrari its like fill up the tank of my car for me... Nothing.

I don't think anything else will happen specially after that mclaren had the all ferrari books and setting of the car... Unfortunately the F1 without Ferrari is nothing and without the Mclaren loose another 50% of the interest...

Therefore a little slap and everyone is happy...

That said i am taking them to court for my bet... hahahhaha...

[Bosscat]

... Unfortunately the F1 without Ferrari is nothing...

Nothing but fair and sporting would be a travesty of justice.

I say throw the book at them like they seem to like to throw it at McLaren.

[GSH]

Unfortunately the F1 without Ferrari is nothing

F1 with Ferrari is a laughing stock.

[h0rde]

As Luca Di Montezemolo has explained, both drivers are employed by the team. They do what's best for the team. On Sunday, what was best for the team was that Felipe let Alonso past him, because Alonso really was a lot quicker. As Vettel said when asked in the post-race interview, "Yeah, maybe they should have crashed?" It's best for the team to have the quicker driver in front, and there's no sense in letting the two cars race for P1 and risk a Red Bull situation where they touch and both end up out of the points.

If you feel bad for Felipe, remember that he was the beneficiary of team orders when he was fighting for the championship with Hamilton, and Ferrari rigged Kimi's pit stop so that Felipe could jump him on track. It happens. Teams favor the driver who has the best chance to with the championship, and this year that driver is Alonso. Felipe is not a contender for that championship, so the best scenario for Ferrari to secure the most points for both championships is P1 Alonso, P2 Felipe, so that's what they did. If you don't like it, watch something else.

To everyone who complains constantly every time the FIA decides not to ban Ferrari from competition for life and strike every evidence of their existence from the record books, you may recall that McLaren have clearly displayed team orders to their drivers as well, multiple times (Coulthard/Hakkinen in 97 and again in 98, and Hamilton/Alonso in 07). Team orders exist in the sport for a reason, and I think the only thing wrong is the rule itself. Get rid of the rule and let teams manage their drivers how they feel it will benefit the team the most.

[GSH]

stuff

Rule 39.1 of the F1 Sporting Regulations.

“Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited”. That is as clear as it can possibly be. Ferrari are the team responsible for the creation of the rule (Schumacher / Barrichello, Austria 2002) yet they have publically flouted it.

The fact that other teams have used orders is as irrelevant as arguing with a Cop that the car in front was driving as fast as you but only you got stopped. 2 wrongs do not make a right.

The Stewards, having full access to the radio transmissions, lap times etc clearly feel there is a case to answer, but it is beyond their remit to deal with it.

Over to the World Council, with Captain Todt & First Mate Ecclestone at the helm....oh, hang on...

[Lowner]

That rule seems clear to me. No doubts about meaning for Lawyers to get rich spending years arguing about.

Geoff, are you absolutely sure theres no sub clause somewhere that says " Unless Ferrari decide otherwise"?

[GSH]

Geoff, are you absolutely sure theres no sub clause somewhere that says " Unless Ferrari decide otherwise"?

It's probably there somewhere, possibly hidden amongst the clauses allowing Herman Tilke to design boring tracks as long as they have hotels with lots of pretty coloured lights on them.

[h0rde]

other stuff
I'm not disagreeing that they broke the rule by issuing team orders. I'm saying team orders have always and will always play a part in the sport, regardless of how anyone believes the sport should be. The rule is obviously ineffective and ultimately useless, so let's just get rid of it and let teams do what they're already doing.

[Bosscat]

because Alonso really was a lot quicker.

Based on that statement he should have been able to find a way past without any help whatsoever.

Its like I always say to anyone that complains about lappers in any form of racing. "If you are fast enough to lap somebody, you are fast enough to pass them without any help, because you are certainly much faster then the person you claim was holding you up"

[KennyG]

Based on that statement he should have been able to find a way past without any help whatsoever.

The mistake people make is thinking that Alonso is a racing driver. True racing drivers overtake with commitment and talent (oh for the great days of Senna), Alonso on the other hand behaves like a spoiled teenager crying for help from his mother, or cheats his way to the front (more than once in his career).

F1 isn't Ferarri, they and their fanboys may think they are, but would F1 stop running without them - no it wouldn't. Ten years ago I was involved with an F1 team and had the opportunity to see up close the Ferrari politics, which put me off even watching F1 for most of the years that followed. Think of them as the mafia in red and you won't be far adrift.

[Lowner]

Bosscat,

Take away ALL additional downforce (front/rear wings etc) and proactively police any and all attempts to reintroduce it and there would be no need for blue flags, artificial pit stops, teams forced to run tyres they would never ordinarily use, team instructions etc etc, the faster car/driver would always be able to overtake.

But we digress and the truth is it will never happen. But that rule does exist right now, its very clear and easy for even Ferrari to understand and they should be hung out to dry by the FIA. What happens AFTER that, whether the rule is removed or changed, is not the point right now.

[GSH]

But that rule does exist right now, its very clear and easy for even Ferrari to understand and they should be hung out to dry by the FIA. What happens AFTER that, whether the rule is removed or changed, is not the point right now.

That's it in a nutshell. The rule is there, Ferrari caused the rule to be created and they have broken it .

Disrepute charges have seen Flavio Briatore banned from F1 and McLaren fined $100 million in recent years. I await similar punishment for Luca & Co...but i'm not holding my breath.


Now....these photos of the "flexible" Red Bull front wing....

[h0rde]

Based on that statement he should have been able to find a way past without any help whatsoever.

I don't doubt that Alonso was fast enough to get around Massa. See the Webber/Vettel incident a few weeks ago for evidence that Ferrari would not advise him trying.

The mistake people make is thinking that Alonso is a racing driver. True racing drivers overtake with commitment and talent (oh for the great days of Senna), Alonso on the other hand behaves like a spoiled teenager crying for help from his mother, or cheats his way to the front (more than once in his career).

This is all speculation, but I believe Alonso would have been happy to drive around Massa. The team didn't want to see their two drivers scrapping for the lead, it's as simple as that. It was not Alonso's decision. The team took care of it and that was it.

The idea that Alonso is not a racing driver is ridiculous. He's a double world champion (beating Schumacher both times, but I suppose you don't think he was any good either :rolleyes:) and is easily one of the top 2 drivers in the sport right now (Vettel being the other.) If you're unhappy about what happened, put the blame where it belongs - with Domenicali and the guys behind the pit wall. The drivers were just doing what they were told.

[Bosscat]

F1 isn't Ferarri, they and their fanboys may think they are, but would F1 stop running without them - no it wouldn't. Ten years ago I was involved with an F1 team and had the opportunity to see up close the Ferrari politics, which put me off even watching F1 for most of the years that followed. Think of them as the mafia in red and you won't be far adrift.

bw!

[Bosscat]

I don't doubt that Alonso was fast enough to get around Massa. See the Webber/Vettel incident a few weeks ago for evidence that Ferrari would not advise him trying.

Thats taking the racing out of racing.....just think back to Hamilton and Button going wheel to wheel mano-a-mano earlier this year, but they also respect one another.

That was what it is all about, no team orders, just whomever is quickest and smartest wins.

[h0rde]

Thats taking the racing out of racing.....just think back to Hamilton and Button going wheel to wheel mano-a-mano earlier this year, but they also respect one another.

That was what it is all about, no team orders, just whomever is quickest and smartest wins.

Yes, how lovely for them. It has nothing to do with respect. The McLarens didn't take each other out because of chance. I believe that all of the drivers respect each other in the sport; nobody is going to take anyone else out on purpose. The fact is that it's quite perilous to try to overtake another car in F1, and teams are right to be cautious to encourage their two cars to do this. I saw the race where Button was all over Hamilton for a minute, and it was exciting. I was also, however, waiting for the moment where they came together and it was all over for both of them, whatever their intentions. It's a huge risk, and I can understand why teams would want to avoid it.

[Bosscat]

Yes, how lovely for them. It has nothing to do with respect. The McLarens didn't take each other out because of chance. I believe that all of the drivers respect each other in the sport; nobody is going to take anyone else out on purpose. The fact is that it's quite perilous to try to overtake another car in F1, and teams are right to be cautious to encourage their two cars to do this. I saw the race where Button was all over Hamilton for a minute, and it was exciting. I was also, however, waiting for the moment where they came together and it was all over for both of them, whatever their intentions. It's a huge risk, and I can understand why teams would want to avoid it.

LOL........You must have never raced much if at all, because there is no love lost between teammates nor any other driver, its just that the two blokes at McLaren are very mature racers, and can race each other hard, yet see the big picture of a Constructors championship as being very important to the team.

If drivers don't want to take any risks, I hear Lawn Bowling is a pretty safe sport that perhaps they should all take up instead.

The simple fact remains that once again the red plague manipulated the outcome of a race, and that goes against the sporting regulations.

[Bernardo]

Loads of Mclaren supporter here...

About the mafia in red... Who copied the ferrari car and got a way with a slap and loosing the point on the constructor but not on the driver ? ferr...no mclaren... Who was recovered in the gravel by the marshal and pushed back on the road ... Raik...no hamilton... who overtake a safety car... Alon... No hamilton..we can go on but let's forget about it... So maybe the mafia doesn't look red at all... Beside is a bit of a stupid word to use considering that you may not even know what the mafia is.

About Hamilton and button racing beside a couple of corner where they had a couple of overtaking that was it... In every GP its always save the tyres, and save the fuel...

I agree that ferrari broke the rule and from my point of view they should be disqualifed without even think about it... It is against the sport from my point of view... But the team is more important then the driver for every team... Glock at some stage was the 3rd mclaren in brazil 2008 ...

[GSH]

Loads of Mclaren supporter here...

About the mafia in red... Who copied the ferrari car and got a way with a slap and loosing the point on the constructor but not on the driver ? ferr...no mclaren...

A $100million fine and removal from the Constructors championship is hardly a slap. The reason the drivers were not penalised is because Alonso gleefully ran to the FIA and Hamilton knew nothing about the stolen information which was taken by 1 engineer without the approval or knowledge of the McLaren management.

Isn't it strange how no action was taken against Renault when they were caught in possession of 11 floppy discs with McLaren design information on them and it was proven that 9 members of the Renault team had seen the data on them.

Who was recovered in the gravel by the marshal and pushed back on the road ... Raik...no hamilton...

I'll explain the rules shall i?. If a driver ends up in the gravel, but keeps the engine running, outside assistance IS allowed.

who overtake a safety car... Alon... No hamilton..

And he recieved the mandated penalty for it, which is a drive thru. The only reason anyone complained about that is because of manchild Alonso's constant whining. The fact that Hamilton had built up a sufficient gap the render the Drive-thru pointless is nothing more than a co-incedence.


Next. :)

[Lowner]

Geoff,

Alonso's rather childish antics in the cockpit when Massa locked up remind me of past moments with Hamilton and McLaren. Casey Stoner in MotoGP has a similar mind set. Both have elements of the spoilt child about them. Both are amazing talents for sure, but hardly normal rounded personalities!

[GSH]

Geoff,

Alonso's rather childish antics in the cockpit when Massa locked up remind me of past moments with Hamilton and McLaren. Casey Stoner in MotoGP has a similar mind set. Both have elements of the spoilt child about them. Both are amazing talents for sure, but hardly normal rounded personalities!

Yes, Hamilton has undoubtedly had his moments, but he seems to be growing out of it now.

Meanwhile Alonso seems to get worse with age. His childish tantrums could probably be overlooked if he wasn't such a treacherous little oik as well.

[Bernardo]

@ GSH

Have you been to Woking ? The security guy on the gate wear Hugo Boss suit, not the 250 pounds you can get in the shop but something more expensive... A friend of mine worked there for over 2 years and the amount of money that is involved is outregeous. 50 ml for team like ferrari and mclaren is nothing. they spend about 250 ml a year for the cars. that was before of the cost cutting and all of it and did not include the salary for the drivers. There are many things I can tell you about there and trust me you will not believe it.

Hamilton in 2007 was helped with a crane (if i think its called that way, my english is not that great) in a dangerous situation as well and he shouldn't have been helped at all. He did no scored any point if that is the matter but still a bit of a grey area because because that didn;t happen to Alonso in 2004.

That said i am not here to have an argument about it, I agree with you that ferrari should be disqualified, i didn;t talk about mafia or anything like that. I just said F1 without ferrari is nothing and same ish without mclaren... not far from the truth ... Team comes and goes ferrari has been there all the time and mclaren almost the same...

Driver, Alonso is a pain in the @ss ... In every scandal he is involved... Renault and the crash, mclaren and the spy story and ferrari and the overtaking... Strange that he always know nothing. I do not like him sometimes I still put my bet on Shumi to get on the podium ... hahaha... That's how much I like Alonso... Hamilton may not be the best driver in my opinion but he is one of the few that when he get the first lap wrong you are lucky in paying the ticket because he on his own his worth the 150 pounds... he gets in the car and race.. others 2 lap later are already in sleeping mode...

Then we can also argue about drive through and all the other but i think we support different teams and we will never come to an agreement..

[evo5ive]

My we have some whingers in here, don't we? :lol:

There's not a shred of proof that Ferrari issued team orders. We all know they did, obviously, but how do you prove it? I don't see the WMSC council doing anything further.


On a point of note though...

Last year, same race, SAME CORNER:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epI6u6uA8hM

Ron Dennis acted quickly yesterday to reject any suggestion that his McLaren drivers had been acting under team orders, which are banned in formula one. Lewis Hamilton was largely dependent for his win in the German grand prix on his team-mate, Heikki Kovalainen, allowing him past on lap 52 after the Briton had emerged from his second stop behind the Finn.

According to Dennis, Kovalainen was simply told that Hamilton was much quicker and he took the decision himself to allow his team-mate by. "The only thing we advise drivers is the respective pace of the other driver and they ultimately call it," the team principal said. "Lewis was nearly a second quicker than Heikki through the race and when he was told Lewis was quicker he just let him past.

"He knew that was the only way because the longer he would have held up Lewis the more difficult it would have been for him to have regained the lead. It was a tremendous sporting gesture and it's what being in a racing team is about. True team-mates do these things because that's the way they are."My, my... doesn't that sound familiar? :rolleyes:

The point is team orders have, are, and always will be a part of F1. There's no way to stop them. McLaren and Red Bull have both used them THIS YEAR already. The only thing Ferrari did was fail to make it as 'transparent' as they could have. Silly, really.

[neil_r]

Ferarri
International
Assistance

[neilwood32]

Ferarri
International
Assistance
bw!

Funny I was just about to post the very same comment.

[h0rde]

The point is team orders have, are, and always will be a part of F1. There's no way to stop them. McLaren and Red Bull have both used them THIS YEAR already. The only thing Ferrari did was fail to make it as 'transparent' as they could have. Silly, really.
This is the same thing I've tried to say a few times already, but some very obvious anti-Ferrari folks keep dragging the drivers into it when they had nothing to do with it. Oy.

[Lowner]

Evo,

The Kovalainen/ Hamilton case hangs on whether the rule existed in its present form then. If it did then McLaren were also in breach of the rule. "Driver X is faster than you! Do you understand what I am saying to you" Is clearly a coded message, and not a very intelligently coded message at that.

Kovalainen obviously was aware which side his bread was buttered and knew that if he ignored the message his days at McLaren would be numbered, so whether McLaren admit it or not, it was a team order, otherwise there would be no need to say anything over the radio.

[evo5ive]

Evo,

The Kovalainen/ Hamilton case hangs on whether the rule existed in its present form then. If it did then McLaren were also in breach of the rule. "Driver X is faster than you! Do you understand what I am saying to you" Is clearly a coded message, and not a very intelligently coded message at that.

Kovalainen obviously was aware which side his bread was buttered and knew that if he ignored the message his days at McLaren would be numbered, so whether McLaren admit it or not, it was a team order, otherwise there would be no need to say anything over the radio.
You are absolutely correct. And the rule has not been amended from last year to this one. As a matter of fact I don't think it has been amended or changed since its introduction in 2002/3, thought I couldn't be sure.

[Lowner]

An interesting variation I've just thought of:

Imagine Red Bull's Webber or Vettel closing fast with one of their "second string" cars. Before the marshals react with blue flags, a radio message is sent to the poor unfortunate to immediately pull over for both approaching cars. It's still team orders, even if rather more intelligently applied.

[Bosscat]

Time to get rid of radios and go back to the old pit board.

Granted you can still put messages on a pit board, and it was done years ago in an American MX race, and a photographer even caught a shot of it.

But rules are rules, even for Ferrari!!!

[evo5ive]

But rules are rules, even for Ferrari!!!
But how will the WMSC prove that Ferrari broke them? We 'know' what they did, but I still don't see how they're going to prove it. Massa changed up three gears at once, the telemetry will show, and he claims it was driver error. As far as I can see any 'evidence' they have is circumstantial at best.

[Bosscat]

The radio transmission is evidence enough IMO.

[h0rde]

I'd agree with evo, we all know what happened, but there's no indisputable evidence that proves it outright. You have to interpret everything in context to get any meaning out of it; nobody ever actually told Massa (i.e. issued a direct team order) to get out of Alonso's way.

[Lowner]

Yes, To me the radio message is damning, it's proof enough for me. Why first pat ("Good boy") then apologise to Massa unless he was being instructed to do something that he was not happy with?

Yes, Ferrari can, and will, lie through their teeth after the event. But thats all par for the course. They are guilty as charged in my book, my jury has already come to a decision, all I want to know now is are they going to be properly punished or will Jon Todt just give them another slap on the wrist. It's Jon Todts first issue, I'm watching JT!

[KennyG]

We now have another issue rearing its ugly head, the use of flexing front wings by Ferrari and Red Bull. Charlie Whiting has been asked to rule on them. If they are legal then all the teams will fit them. The use of these is probably how Ferrari suddenly managed their dramatic change in performance.

They were spotted originally by one of the photographers. For more info have a browse on PitPass.

Back to the Ferrari team orders. The team orders were blatant, and as long as the WMSC listen to them rather than read the transcripts, and hear the nuances, they would have to be deaf, stupid or corrupt not to take action. It is a breach of the rules brought in after Ferarris last episode of race fixing.

[sandpiper]

We now have another issue rearing its ugly head, the use of flexing front wings by Ferrari and Red Bull. Charlie Whiting has been asked to rule on them. If they are legal then all the teams will fit them. The use of these is probably how Ferrari suddenly managed their dramatic change in performance.



I can't see them being illegal as the rules stand, the rule states that they must pass a minimum height test, which they do. What happens once air gets moving over them is not part of the regulation. No car out there will have it's wing sticking to that minimum height once downforce starts pushing the wing down, it's just that the flexiwings drop in a different fashion.

For a precedence, look at the old ride height rules brought in to get rid of the ground effect sidepods and skirts brushing the ground. The cars had to have a clearance of 6(?) cm between the skirts and the ground, so that air could escape and limit ground effect. It was measured by a spacer being placed under the skirts when the car was at rest (much as the front wings are now). It didn't take long before teams developed cars that rode nice and high at rest, so passed the test, but as soon as they got rolling at any speed the downforce compressed the suspension and dropped the car so thatc the skirts were down to the ground. Clearly in contravention of the spirit of the rules, but the cars were all legal because they passed the statutory test.

There are practical problems to measuring cars whilst moving, and there is no rule stating what the minimum is at xxx mph anyway. Even if they did say that Ferrari were running lower than the official minimum, so will the other cars. Without having a 'moving' minimum you can't say one is too low and another isn't, so long as both pass the statutory test in scrutineering.

The FIA may well bring in a rule to defeat flexiwings in future, but the teams will always develop ways to beat the rule (see: "you may not use a double diffuser at the rear" for a good example of creatively getting what you want without breaking the rules).

[h0rde]

^^ Besides that, something like a flexing wing alone would not enable a team like Ferrari who was already near the front of the pack to find a second of pace per lap. There are no silver bullets in the development of the car; Ferrari's improvement, like anyone's, is the sum of developments on every area of the car.

[Lowner]

As was said during todays TV commentary, in F1 it's a game. As a team you are either stirring up trouble for any team or they are stirring it up for you. Unless a marshall wants to dangle off the car at 200 mph with tape measure in hand it will not be resolved, and they know it.

[Bernardo]

Eddie Jordan was very right when he suggested to the Mclaren guys to focus on building a better car instead of moaning about everything... Cars (ferrari and redbull) are legal and full stop.
Red Bull last gp was 1 second a lap quicker then the ferrari and 2 second quicker then all the others.

Clearly cannot be just the flexing wing that apparently ferrari is using as well otherwise they would have a similar pace... Reality is that Red bull is in another league and team like ferrari and Mclaren are not really happy about it, because they are used to be at the top and now compare to them they look like the Virgin team...

however I still think alonso can pull the championship ... At least I hope... hahhah...

[Lowner]

Bernado,

No, my money is on Vettel. But he has a tendency to loose interest half way through a race, witness his stupidity behind the safety car that cost him a race win this week. If he can cure himself of that character flaw, then he should get it. Alonso has major human being issues.

[evo5ive]

Yes, Ferrari can, and will, lie through their teeth after the event. But thats all par for the course. They are guilty as charged in my book, my jury has already come to a decision...
All you've done here is convince me that Ferrari will ALWAYS be guilty in your book.

The team orders were blatant, and as long as the WMSC listen to them rather than read the transcripts, and hear the nuances, they would have to be deaf, stupid or corrupt not to take action. It is a breach of the rules brought in after Ferarris last episode of race fixing.
I certainly hope you don 't ever serve on a jury for a murder accused! Listen to 'nuances'?!? Seriously?!?


All this issue has served to do so far is get most of the experienced guys (team principles, designers, drivers, etc.) in F1 to agree that the whole team orders rule needs removing. The only thing Ferrari is guilty of is not pulling the wool far enough down to keep the casual fanboy happy. This is NOT the first time since 2002 they've done it, they are NOT the only team to do it, and they will NOT be the last.

[neil_r]

All you've done here is convince me that Ferrari will ALWAYS be guilty in your book.


I certainly hope you don 't ever serve on a jury for a murder accused! Listen to 'nuances'?!? Seriously?!?


All this issue has served to do so far is get most of the experienced guys (team principles, designers, drivers, etc.) in F1 to agree that the whole team orders rule needs removing. The only thing Ferrari is guilty of is not pulling the wool far enough down to keep the casual fanboy happy. This is NOT the first time since 2002 they've done it, they are NOT the only team to do it, and they will NOT be the last.

I have no great feeling either way on this. To be honest I think the rule is unenforceable and that, in my opinion, is reason enough to scrap it.

However the rule is there and until the much needed revision is made, teams should at least look like they are abiding by it.

The fan boy remark is complete bollox as there are many luminaries and cognoscenti of the sport criticizing the teams behavior here. And whilst there does seem to be a consensus that the rule is wrong, informed people still feel that whilst it is in place it should be adhered too, in exactly the same way as rules relating to weight, engine size and tyre usage should be and are.

[Lowner]

I'm not anti Ferrari. I've been a great fan of a certain M Schumacher for years, but I also want a level playing field, where everyone plays by the same set of rules. I don't care if its Ferrari or Force India, Williams or Lotus, the rules should be strictly enforced at all times.

F1 has for too many years been run as a cosy little club for Bernie and a few mates. Time to sort that out! The accident between two cars in the pit lane during the last race is a classic example. We have been seeing cars being released by the lollipop men into the path of oncoming cars all season, but no one has even had a slapped wrist. Hence this latest, more serious incident, for which I directly blame Charlie Whiting and his team.

[evo5ive]

My argument is: YES, we 'know' Ferrari issued team orders. But don't tell me about listening to nuances. If people want to be technical and call for the rules to be strictly enforced that's fine. But, there is no hard evidence that Ferrari broke the rules in this case. If they are to be dragged over the coals then there needs to be the necessary evidence to support such a penalty.

I'll ask again Neil - what's the difference between the 'orders' issued by Ferrari at Hockenheim this year and the 'orders' issued by McLaren last year? Same circuit, same corner, same text! Must be those nuances... :confused:

You can bet that the Scuderia's lawyers will bring that up at the WMSC hearing!

Fair for one, fair for all.

[neil_r]

I'll ask again Neil - what's the difference between the 'orders' issued by Ferrari at Hockenheim this year and the 'orders' issued by McLaren last year? Same circuit, same corner, same text! Must be those nuances... :confused:

As I said I agree with you. Formula One teams will all live on the margin, that is why it is so much fun :-)

[neilwood32]

The rule as it stands has to be enforced but there are so many ways around it by ways of team orders (use fuel saving, mind the tyres, watch your temps etc as well as countless other "coded" phrases that could be used) that IMHO the rule should be scrapped.