Adobe & sRGB vs. Noritsu & Fuji at Costco....

[UncleDoug]

Here is a screen shot comparrison of sRGB and AdobeRGB vs. Fuji and Noritsu printers from the Costco in Carson City Nevada.
Adobe and sRGB are white, while the color spaces for the printers are colored, so you know where things get clipped.

Much much more to come.....

[Scottes]

Does those printers understand files with embedded Adobe RGB profiles? I was under the belief that they did not...

[UncleDoug]

Does those printers understand files with embedded Adobe RGB profiles? I was under the belief that they did not...

From the threads here you would think this was the case.
That never did sit well with me. Think about it....
The very fact the printers(Fuji and Noritsu) were quoted as having a prefered color space(sRGB) and that profiles were available at DryCreek led me to think that there has to be some form of color management going on here. After reading some things on Dry Creek and asking a few questions in other forums, I found that you can send files that have been converted to the printer space, in the case of Fuji Froniers, to print PROVIDED YOU TELL THEM TO PRINT IN THE "NO CORRECTIONS" MODE.
Another thing about DryCreek info. The majority of the Fuji and Noritsu profiles are custom-enhanced profiles - not factory, which also lead me to believe that some form of optional color amagement was going on.

Now, getting the monkey operating the printer at Costco to do this for you is another mater altogether. ;)

I have not tried this personally, but the theory is extremely sound.

So, if this is the case, and you are concerned about getting the most out of your prints from a digital lab you are cheating yourself by following a strict sRGB workflow, as illustrated by the diagrams I posted.

[Scottes]

I found that you can send files that have been converted to the printer space, in the case of Fuji Froniers, to print PROVIDED YOU TELL THEM TO PRINT IN THE "NO CORRECTIONS" MODE
This does make a hell of a lot of sense.

So, if this is the case, and you are concerned about getting the most out of your prints from a digital lab you are cheating yourself by following a strict sRGB workflow, as illustrated by the diagrams I posted.
No doubt.

Huge info. Thanks!

[UncleDoug]

Just as a side note the image I posted shows the 3D gamut plot at different angles so as to show where clipping occurrs.
No clipping is going on the "other side" of the plot in both cases.

[MitchSB]

Great stuff, Uncle Doug.

I did some tests with Costco and the Dry Creek profile: I set up a pic with 12 colors of construction paper, including a white and black, a doll for skin tone, assorted crayons and markers.

Greens and Blues, all shades of them, are a bit more realistic, a bit less saturated, nicer using that profile. But, compared with running them with sRGB, in 4X6s, shot in even, outdoor light with an XT and 28-135 IS lens, the other colors are virtually indistinguishable to my naked eye.
I will use the profile going forward for Costco prints because with those colors, it seems to make a difference to me.

[UncleDoug]

Great stuff, Uncle Doug.

I did some tests with Costco and the Dry Creek profile: I set up a pic with 12 colors of construction paper, including a white and black, a doll for skin tone, assorted crayons and markers.

Greens and Blues, all shades of them, are a bit more realistic, a bit less saturated, nicer using that profile. But, compared with running them with sRGB, in 4X6s, shot in even, outdoor light with an XT and 28-135 IS lens, the other colors are virtually indistinguishable to my naked eye.
I will use the profile going forward for Costco prints because with those colors, it seems to make a difference to me.

Now we are talking! Direct experimentation into all of these issues is relatively easy these days. Great to hear some input from real experience.

Thinking about this further, I would love to know the logic behind the lack of color management options afforded to the Fuji and Noritsu machines.
Seems to me that lack of support for ICC color management from this segement of the digital equasion does a major disservice to the movement.

[slin100]

Uncle Doug,

I have a few questions/comments.

What program did you use to generate the plots? I'm hoping it's freeware. :D

The Adobe RGB vs Noritsu plot shows two white outlines. What does the smaller outline represent?

The plots show very nicely how misleading the traditional 2D gamut plots, as represented by the outlines at the bottom of each plot, can be. If one were to only go by the 2D plots, one might get the impression that the sRGB space covers all but small section of yellows/oranges of the Noritsu gamut. The 3D plot shows otherwise, that there a great many colors of various luminosities that are outside the gamut covered by sRGB.

The operators at my local CostCo do understand how to disable automatic color corrections. YMMV.

I do agree that it's a shame that the two most popular commercial lab printers are not color managed. But the Dry Creek profiles makes it a nonissue. One extra step is required in the workflow, which is to convert to the profile at the end of the workflow, but that's not an onerous step. In a way, being forced to do so could be considered a blessing in disguise, because it removes the uncertainty that would arise from having the printer do the conversion.

[UncleDoug]

Uncle Doug,

I have a few questions/comments.

What program did you use to generate the plots? I'm hoping it's freeware. :D

ColorThink is the application and it is not freeware. :(
Other than the ColorSync utility under OS X 10.4.2, I know of no freeware to perform these comparisons.
Dry Creek has an interactive comparison section to their site.
But you are limited in choices and whistles & bells.



The Adobe RGB vs Noritsu plot shows two white outlines. What does the smaller outline represent?

sRGB. Basically what I did was create the sRGB comparison, and then turned on the AdobeRGB profile layer without turning off the sRGB layer and made the screen capture, so the 2d plot of sRGB shows up as well. The 2 color plots are for the Fuji and Noritsu. I included them both in the comparrison at one time because they are not too far off from each other, but different in their geometry just a bit, for general comparisons in this case.


The plots show very nicely how misleading the traditional 2D gamut plots, as represented by the outlines at the bottom of each plot, can be. If one were to only go by the 2D plots, one might get the impression that the sRGB space covers all but small section of yellows/oranges of the Noritsu gamut. The 3D plot shows otherwise, that there a great many colors of various luminosities that are outside the gamut covered by sRGB.

Exactly. LAB is a 3-dimensional space and true and accurate comparisons can only be made in a 3-d setting.


The operators at my local CostCo do understand how to disable automatic color corrections. YMMV.

I do agree that it's a shame that the two most popular commercial lab printers are not color managed. But the Dry Creek profiles makes it a nonissue. One extra step is required in the workflow, which is to convert to the profile at the end of the workflow, but that's not an onerous step. In a way, being forced to do so could be considered a blessing in disguise, because it removes the uncertainty that would arise from having the printer do the conversion.

You got it!
Color Management, when practiced correctly by all the parties involved is wonderful thing and can make your life alot easier.:D

[chris.bailey]

Great info. This tends to suggest that you are better sending them sRGB files as presumably if the operator monkey cant do a no corrections print, the out of gamut colours will just get clipped rather than rendered and there is more clipping to the aRGB file than the sRGB file.

[UncleDoug]

Great info. This tends to suggest that you are better sending them sRGB files as presumably if the operator monkey cant do a no corrections print, the out of gamut colours will just get clipped rather than rendered and there is more clipping to the aRGB file than the sRGB file.

Chris,

I think you are right on the sRGB thing, IF the monkey can't be trained.
BUT if the monkey CAN be trained, you can gain a good deal of color ground, in the saturated blue-greens and oranges by working in AdobeRGB or other larger than sRGB space and converting to printer space and printing that file.

[Croasdail]

just a note here... at my local Costco, the people running the photo area have been there more then the year I have been using them and actually are quit well trained. We found a bunch of film.... more then 20 years old that hadn't been developed. Of course they were really damaged and the machine on first pass had no clue what to do with them. The people there then went back in and made custom changes to the machine and did a great job of getting best print possible from what was a really bad source. So, while your people may be "monkeys", I have a lot of faith and respect for the crew at my local Costco.... they always done more then just run film through a machine. For what it's worth... hope your all have the same luck I do. BTW - Costco pays considerably more then most mall shops or Wallmart pay - probably why they keep their people.

Oh - and very informative stuff here... I have resisted learning about all this stuff but you can only avoid it for so long.... Cheers.

[UncleDoug]

just a note here... at my local Costco, the people running the photo area have been there more then the year I have been using them and actually are quit well trained. We found a bunch of film.... more then 20 years old that hadn't been developed. Of course they were really damaged and the machine on first pass had no clue what to do with them. The people there then went back in and made custom changes to the machine and did a great job of getting best print possible from what was a really bad source. So, while your people may be "monkeys", I have a lot of faith and respect for the crew at my local Costco.... they always done more then just run film through a machine. For what it's worth... hope your all have the same luck I do. BTW - Costco pays considerably more then most mall shops or Wallmart pay - probably why they keep their people.

Oh - and very informative stuff here... I have resisted learning about all this stuff but you can only avoid it for so long.... Cheers.

You have a point about employees at Costco, etc...
My faux pas. :o Just had bad luck in our neck of the woods.

Great to here ther are some dedicated people out there that are willing to go above and beyond. You are lucky in my book.

I'm producing quite a few of the screen captures as posted above.
If any of you would like to suggest comparisons, I'd be more than happy to ad them to the list! :D
Also, if you have a profile for a device and would like it compared to another profile or color space, PM me & I'll see what I can do.

Cheers!

[Croasdail]

I guess the difference is in North Carolina - you can live on Costco wages... in your neck of the woods I am sure that is a bit more of a challenge.... but that is a whole other conversation for another forum on another day....

thanks for you work here and keep it coming.

[PhotosGuy]

I did some tests with Costco and the Dry Creek profile: I set up a pic with 12 colors of construction paper, including a white and black, a doll for skin tone, assorted crayons and markers. Good idea! Seen these?
Test prints (http://www.gballard.net/psd/srgbforwww.html)
Epson 4800 Test Prints (http://www.inkjetart.com/custom/)